AMD and Nvidia will work together in perfect harmony (DX12)

[Draconian Guppy]

We have early information about some of the details regarding DirectX 12, and what follows will surprise you.

A source with knowledge of the matter gave us some early information about an "unspoken API," which we strongly infer is DirectX 12.

We first heard of DirectX 12 in 2013, and DirectX 12 appears to finally be around the corner. It's expected to launch in tandem with the upcoming Windows 10 operating system.

 

The new API will work much differently from older APIs, and it's common knowledge by now that it will be "closer to the hardware" than older APIs, similar to AMD's Mantle. This will bring massive improvements in framerates and latency, but that's not all that DirectX 12 has up its sleeve.

Explicit Asynchronous Multi-GPU Capabilities

One of the big things that we will be seeing is DirectX 12's Explicit Asynchronous Multi-GPU capabilities. What this means is that the API combines all the different graphics resources in a system and puts them all into one "bucket." It is then left to the game developer to divide the workload up however they see fit, letting different hardware take care of different tasks.

Part of this new feature set that aids multi-GPU configurations is that the frame buffers (GPU memory) won't necessarily need to be mirrored anymore. In older APIs, in order to benefit from multiple GPUs, you'd have the two work together, each one rendering an alternate frame (AFR). This required both to have all of the texture and geometry data in their frame buffers, meaning that despite having two cards with 4 GB of memory, you'd still only have a 4 GB frame buffer.

DirectX 12 will remove the 4 + 4 = 4 idea and will work with a new frame rendering method called SFR, which stands for Split Frame Rendering. Developers will be able to manually, or automatically, divide the texture and geometry data between the GPUs, and all of the GPUs can then work together to work on each frame. Each GPU will then work on a specific portion of the screen, with the number of portions being equivalent to the number of GPUs installed.

Our source suggested that this technology will significantly reduce latency, and the explanation is simple. With AFR, a number of frames need to be in queue in order to deliver a smooth experience, but what this means is that the image on screen will always be about 4-5 frames behind the user's input actions.

This might deliver a very high framerate, but the latency will still make the game feel much less responsive. With SFR, however, the queue depth is always just one, or arguably even less, as each GPU is working on a different part of the screen. As the queue depth goes down, the framerate should also go up due to freed-up resources.

The source said that with binding the multiple GPUs together, DirectX 12 treats the entire graphics subsystem as a single, more powerful graphics card. Thus, users get the robustness of a running a single GPU, but with multiple graphics cards.

It should be noted that although the new Civilization: Beyond Earth title runs on Mantle, it has an SFR option and works in a similar way because AMD's Mantle API supports SFR. Mind you, Split Frame Rendering is not a new trick by any means. Many industrial film, photography, and 3D modelling applications use it, and back in the 90s some game engines also supported it.

Of course, chances are you won't be able to use all of the options described above at the same time. Split frame rendering, for example, will still likely require some of the textures and geometry data to be in multiple frame buffers, and there may be other sacrifices that have to be made.

Build A Multi-GPU System With Both AMD And Nvidia Cards

We were also told that DirectX 12 will support all of this across multiple GPU architectures, simultaneously. What this means is that Nvidia GeForce GPUs will be able to work in tandem with AMD Radeon GPUs to render the same game

[The Evil Overlord]

Person to person post, for DG only

AMD and Nvidia have been working seemlessly and in harmony in my house for better part of 14 years now, just in a different way

[Draconian Guppy]

Person to person post, for DG only          

AMD and Nvidia have been working seemlessly and in harmony in my house for better part of 14 years now, just in a different way

Same for me.., my laptop has nvidia and my PC has ATI...

 

But phsyx is only for nvidia (last I recall) so in the near future, when i'm as rich as you dush, I will would like to have an ATI main gpu and nvidia phsyx

[+Red King Subscriber²]

I am reading this as "SLI will offer better performance in DX12"

[Draconian Guppy]

I am reading this as "SLI will offer better performance in DX12"

or cross fire for that matter anyway

[spacer]

Looks very promising. Though the caveat, "the work will shift to the game studios" sounds a little discouraging. I wonder how many studios will budget enough time to optimize their engines for this new tech. A lot of game studios were building for Direct 9c for the longest time. Will many studios target 12 any time soon?

[The Evil Overlord]

Same for me.., my laptop has nvidia and my PC has ATI...

 

But phsyx is only for nvidia (last I recall) so in the near future, when i'm as rich as you dush, I will would like to have an ATI main gpu and nvidia phsyx

Me, rich? nah, I'm a truck driver, decently paid? Worked like a dog? Yes, rich? No

[Draconian Guppy]

Looks very promising. Though the caveat, "the work will shift to the game studios" sounds a little discouraging. I wonder how many studios will budget enough time to optimize their engines for this new tech. A lot of game studios were building for Direct 9c for the longest time. Will many studios target 12 any time soon?

yeah, but think of how many times we have seen issues because of drivers or the fault gets blamed on ATI/nvidia for ###### drivers

 

Me, rich? nah, I'm a truck driver, decently paid? Worked like a dog? Yes, rich? No

Ok let me rephrase that 

 

" I want to be Aheer Rich, to be able to buy dual gpu set ups "

[TAZMINATOR]

Same for me.., my laptop has nvidia and my PC has ATI...

 

But phsyx is only for nvidia (last I recall) so in the near future, when i'm as rich as you dush, I will would like to have an ATI main gpu and nvidia phsyx

 

 

Me, rich? nah, I'm a truck driver, decently paid? Worked like a dog? Yes, rich? No

 

Guppy, don't let Aheer fool you. 

 

He's secretly rich... he's carrying women in the back of his truck with built-in hottub...  Which I heard the rumor going around..   

 

 

Joking aside, I am looking forward to see what they come up with D12. 

[Boo Berry]

There's no way in hell Nvidia or AMD will allow their GPUs to be used in the same system with each other (you know, like they already do when you attempt this!), they'll end up blocking this too at the driver level. On the other hand, with DirectX 12 (and Mantle) it looks like combining video memory in SLI/CrossFireX setups is likely though.

[The Evil Overlord]

Guppy, don't let Aheer fool you.

He's secretly rich... he's carrying women in the back of his truck with built-in hottub... Which I heard the rumor going around..

lol I wish...

yeah, but think of how many times we have seen issues because of drivers or the fault gets blamed on ATI/nvidia for ###### drivers

Ok let me rephrase that

" I want to be Aheer Rich, to be able to buy dual gpu set ups "

sli

The joke in my first reply was AMD CPU's running Nvidia GPU's

[TAZMINATOR]

There's no way in hell Nvidia or AMD will allow their GPUs to be used in the same system with each other (you know, like they already do when you attempt this!), they'll end up blocking this too at the driver level. On the other hand, with DirectX 12 (and Mantle) it looks like combining video memory in SLI/CrossFireX setups is likely though.

 

That's what I think... that's why I said "I am looking forward to see what they come up with D12."

 

Once it's out in public and I look forward to see their thoughts/reviews about their setups.

[theyarecomingforyou]

nVidia has prevented their hardware working with AMD in the past (PhysX) so I see no reason to expect that situation to change.

 

The most interesting aspect of DX12 is that multi-GPU setups will be able to utilise the VRAM additively, meaning two 4GB cards results in 8GB VRAM. That's a massive improvement right there.

[Boo Berry]

The most interesting aspect of DX12 is that multi-GPU setups will be able to utilise the VRAM additively, meaning two 4GB cards results in 8GB VRAM. That's a massive improvement right there.

Mantle can (apparently) do it too.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Mantle can (apparently) do it too.

It's the same principle but Mantle is obviously vendor-specific (it's an open technology but Intel and nVidia won't adopt it). DX12 will be widely adopted and vendor-neutral.

[gameboy1977]

that is great news. I will wait to buy new computer with Nvidia in the future. I dislike ATI products, because upgrade always mess up maybe.  My current computer has Nvidia and Intel CPU are so great working for play MMORPG.

[NeoWind]

DirectX 12 is a nightmare for NVIDIA and AMD but fantastic for the user. 

[+Asmodai MVC]

Same for me.., my laptop has nvidia and my PC has ATI...

 

But phsyx is only for nvidia (last I recall) so in the near future, when i'm as rich as you dush, I will would like to have an ATI main gpu and nvidia phsyx

 

nVidia specifically blocks non-NVidia hardware from accelerating PhysX, this will not change that.  nVidia could allow you to do what you say now and use an ATI card for graphics and a nVidia card for physics but they don't want to.  It's not a technical problem, it's a policy decision.

 

This DX12 tech will allow two different GPUs to draw even individual frames of graphics.  That means SLI cards won't have to match anymore, you'll be able to use more of the memory, etc.  It's really cool but if you were looking for PhysX specifically this isn't it.

[theyarecomingforyou]

DirectX 12 is a nightmare for NVIDIA and AMD

Hardly. It means they get to sell new hardware.

[Draconian Guppy]

nVidia specifically blocks non-NVidia hardware from accelerating PhysX, this will not change that.  nVidia could allow you to do what you say now and use an ATI card for graphics and a nVidia card for physics but they don't want to.  It's not a technical problem, it's a policy decision.

 

This DX12 tech will allow two different GPUs to draw even individual frames of graphics.  That means SLI cards won't have to match anymore, you'll be able to use more of the memory, etc.  It's really cool but if you were looking for PhysX specifically this isn't it.

no not really, the phsyX bit was the only real world use my brain saw for it

[+Asmodai MVC]

Looks very promising. Though the caveat, "the work will shift to the game studios" sounds a little discouraging. I wonder how many studios will budget enough time to optimize their engines for this new tech. A lot of game studios were building for Direct 9c for the longest time. Will many studios target 12 any time soon?

 

A lot of game studios were building for DirectX 9c for the longest time because that's the highest DirectX consoles supported.  If the Xbox 360 and PS3 hardware supported equivalent features to DX10+ the industry would have moved to them as most games target consoles specs first.  Now that the PS4 and Xbox One support beyond 9c capabilities most PC games will support it as well (same with the move to 64bit).

 

DirectX 12 is low level though period.  That means it's "hard" because it's much more manual.  A LOT of smaller companies won't go to it just because it's more work, that's why MS is ALSO releasing DX11.3 at the same time that's higher level ("easier") just like prior DX versions.  Only companies that want to get closer to the metal are going to do DX12 HOWEVER keep in mind that includes middleware companies.  You can bet that Unity, Unreal Engine, CryEngine, etc. will ALL support DX12 and so anything that is built with the newer DX12 versions of them will support DX12.  The game developer won't be doing the low level programming, the engine developers will.

[Draconian Guppy]

A lot of game studios were building for DirectX 9c for the longest time because that's the highest DirectX consoles supported.  If the Xbox 360 and PS3 hardware supported equivalent features to DX10+ the industry would have moved to them as most games target consoles specs first.  Now that the PS4 and Xbox One support beyond 9c capabilities most PC games will support it as well (same with the move to 64bit).

 

DirectX 12 is low level though period.  That means it's "hard" because it's much more manual.  A LOT of smaller companies won't go to it just because it's more work, that's why MS is ALSO releasing DX11.3 at the same time that's higher level ("easier") just like prior DX versions.  Only companies that want to get closer to the metal are going to do DX12 HOWEVER keep in mind that includes middleware companies.  You can bet that Unity, Unreal Engine, CryEngine, etc. will ALL support DX12 and so anything that is built with the newer DX12 versions of them will support DX12.  The game developer won't be doing the low level programming, the engine developers will.

Ah this makes a lot of sense.

 

I wonder what real world benefits grahically wise dx12 will be. IIRC dx11 was more an evolutionary and dx12 was going to be more "Revolutionary" or was it the other way around  ?

[spaceelf]

I like 'unnamed API' when Mantle already has this capability and Intel already expressed interest in it.

 

Could it be DX12?  Yes.  Could it be Mantle?  Yes.  Assuming it is one just because you want it to be seems premature.

[spacer]

A lot of game studios were building for DirectX 9c for the longest time because that's the highest DirectX consoles supported.  If the Xbox 360 and PS3 hardware supported equivalent features to DX10+ the industry would have moved to them as most games target consoles specs first.  Now that the PS4 and Xbox One support beyond 9c capabilities most PC games will support it as well (same with the move to 64bit).

 

DirectX 12 is low level though period.  That means it's "hard" because it's much more manual.  A LOT of smaller companies won't go to it just because it's more work, that's why MS is ALSO releasing DX11.3 at the same time that's higher level ("easier") just like prior DX versions.  Only companies that want to get closer to the metal are going to do DX12 HOWEVER keep in mind that includes middleware companies.  You can bet that Unity, Unreal Engine, CryEngine, etc. will ALL support DX12 and so anything that is built with the newer DX12 versions of them will support DX12.  The game developer won't be doing the low level programming, the engine developers will.

You make a good point about Unity, Unreal, and the other middleware engines. I totally forgot about those.