Tony Robinson, 19, killed by Madison police after traffic disturbance was unarmed

[trag3dy]

Tony Robinson was shot Friday night after assaulting Officer Matt Kenny

 

 

That's as far as you need to read.

[Astra.Xtreme]

Law certainly does not trump personal opinion, lest we forget all the unjust laws of the past and present. Assaulting a police officer shouldn't mean you forfeit your life, especially when assaulting a police officer does not carry the death penalty.

 

 

Nobody disputes that assaulting an armed police officer is reckless and stupid. The issue is the tactics used by officers. In this case the officer forced entry to an apartment and was allegedly assaulted, at which point he used lethal force. Without body cameras we have no way to know whether that account is accurate. Further, we need to look at the tactics used. If it wasn't safe for the officer to enter the apartment then he should have waited for backup, which would have reduced the chance of a fatal outcome (though we recently saw six cops fall over themselves like clowns and kill a homeless person, so nothing is certain).

 

The tactics used by police in the US are extremely confrontational, as they know they can shoot dead without consequence anyone who dares challenge them. Only when there is video footage exposing their wrongdoing is there a chance of accountability.

How do you figure that law doesn't trump personal opinion?  I can't think of any example that refutes that.  If I support downloading music, or speeding, or blasting music in the middle of the night, does that make it okay for me to do?  Absolutely not, because the law states I should not do these things.  If I'm caught, I'll be penalized. End of story.

 

If a criminal understands that they could be shot if they attack a cop, maybe it will make them think twice.  Maybe it will make them think twice about committing the crime in the first place.  Stop speculating the outcome when it's the cause that should be scrutinized.  The same petty arguments could be made if the cop was killed due to not using his gun.

 

btw, I completely support the idea of body cameras.  It will take time and money to roll that out, but I do hope it happens.

That isn't going to solve the problem though.  Stop committing crimes, and stop attacking cops.  Problem solved. Easy as that...

[techbeck]

Neowin, seriously, ban topics like this.  Always the same ###### in different threads cluttering up the mini spy on the front page and in the forums.

[Memphis]

LOL wut... "law certainly does not trump personal opinion" yes it does. Go commit a felony crime, get arrested and tell the judge "Well in my personal opinion I should not be punished" and see how that works out for you.

Jury nullification or if you will the juries opinion can literally rule against the writ of the law. So what he says has some merit. Really everyone of these threads has one thing in common. We all agree on body cams. Every incident of this nature should end in a unanimous demand for them. Can you imagine two protest camps one for the officer and one for the dead putting aside their differences even briefly to march alongside each other for body cams? Some good could be accomplished.

[+E.Worm Jimmy Subscriber¹]

Neowin, seriously, ban topics like this.  Always the same ###### in different threads cluttering up the mini spy on the front page and in the forums.

 

my advice, just skip over them -  it is pretty obvious from the title, what it is about, and you know the drill

banning on other hand -   you cannot ban it, since it is in real world news - correctly - and you cannot start banning only specific topics,  since then everyone can request another topic they don't like to be banned...

[techbeck]

my advice, just skip over them -  it is pretty obvious from the title, what it is about, and you know the drill

banning on other hand -   you cannot ban it, since it is in real world news - correctly - and you cannot start banning only specific topics,  since then everyone can request another topic they don't like to be banned...

Wishful thinking is all. 

[Buttus]

stopped reading here - "Tony Robinson was shot Friday night after assaulting Officer Matt Kenny,"

 

attack a cop, get shot, the end

[Bryan R.]

It's definitely never as simple as attack a cop = shot. There is a whole scenario that resulted in a cop being called to the apartment. The officer heard a disturbance and entered the apartment. The next thing we know is the officer is assaulted and Robinson is shot. As far as I can tell, there is little to conclude other than the officer was struck.

 

Then there is this dumb b**ch Olga, another "family friend" character witness who says Robinson "wouldn't hurt a fly" and says they don't trust cops: "We're afraid of the cops". Then in the next breath asks "Who do you call for help now?". Well guess what, someone DID call the cops and Robinson attacked them!

 

This whole thing is a joke. 

[soniqstylz]

Maybe he'd have been better off if he just shot the cop 4 times

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/17/us/oklahoma-police-chief/

[theyarecomingforyou]

LOL wut... "law certainly does not trump personal opinion" yes it does. Go commit a felony crime, get arrested and tell the judge "Well in my personal opinion I should not be punished" and see how that works out for you.

You're misinterpreting what I said. What I'm saying is that just because the law allows an officer to shoot dead a suspect without consequence doesn't mean that it should be tolerated. It is only with public pressure that attitudes and laws change. A classic example of this is slavery and gay marriage, the former of which was accepted practice while the latter was prohibited. Few would argue that slavery was justified or that gay people should be denied equal rights, yet the law allowed it.

 

The current system allows officers to kill suspects with near impunity, which is absolutely unacceptable. There is a growing resentment of police tactics in the US and pressure is building against the police.

 

If a criminal understands that they could be shot if they attack a cop, maybe it will make them think twice.  Maybe it will make them think twice about committing the crime in the first place.

But by that logic they would know that attacking and/or killing a police officer would likely land them in jail or sentenced to death, so clearly the deterrent argument doesn't float.

 

stopped reading here - "Tony Robinson was shot Friday night after assaulting Officer Matt Kenny,"

 

attack a cop, get shot, the end

It saddens me that there are people that think like you. Such an attitude is incredibly short-sighted. Imagine an officer forces his way into a property without cause and without declaring himself, at which point the occupant defends themselves from an apparent intruder and is promptly shot dead. Imagine a racist officer shooting a black person dead and claiming it was self-defence. Imagine a corrupt officer shooting dead a drug dealer and stealing their stash, claiming it was self-defence. Without evidence, like that from body cameras, it is often only the word of an officer against a corpse and we have seen countless examples of officers abusing their power.

 

Police officers need to be held to account. The officer might have been justified in this instance, he might not have - without other evidence we cannot know. I'm not claiming this officer wasn't in danger or shouldn't have used lethal force once he was attacked. I'm arguing that the confrontational tactics used contributed directly to this outcome, while the lack of video footage means we can't know that the officer was justified. The police should strive to protect the public, which doesn't seem to be the case. There seems to be a mentality that if you break the law your life is forfeit, which many people in this topic seem to echo.

 

PS - It's worth pointing out that this officer had previous killed another person in an apparent 'suicide-by-cop', a term that is virtually unheard of in any other developed nation. It should be concerning that the police gun down so many suspects that such a term can become commonplace. Maybe any officer that has killed someone should be kept away from frontline service.

[trag3dy]

There's your problem. You seem to think that these cops are happy that they've had to kill people. There are consequences to their actions just like there are consequences to attacking a police officer.

 

"Police officers need to be held to account." For what? Doing his job? How about we place the blame squarely where it belongs. On the person who decided to attack a person with a gun. Police officer or not.

[Bryan R.]

There's your problem. You seem to think that these cops are happy that they've had to kill people.

That's interesting that you caught that too. I've brought up that point before and asked what his motivations are behind consistently overlooking the officer's point of view.

[Memphis]

That's interesting that you caught that too. I've brought up that point before and asked what his motivations are behind consistently overlooking the officer's point of view.

 

I would say his reasoning is based on the fact that the rate of cops shooting people is higher in the US than any other western country. This is even when excluding Britain and New Zealand, whose officers are not armed on daily patrol.

[DocM]

I would say his reasoning is based on the fact that the rate of cops shooting people is higher in the US than any other western country. This is even when excluding Britain and New Zealand, whose officers are not armed on daily patrol.

And how many western nations have anywhere near the violent gang problem the US has, especially in the large cities where nearly every large neighborhood has its own? Many of these crazies would love to have a notch carved representing a cop. More street cred.

For cops to be anything but hypervigilant would be nearly suicidal. People need to "get" this and act accordingly.

Rule #1: don't attack a cop

Rule #2: don't act like you're ramping up to #1

[Memphis]

And how many western nations have anywhere near the violent gang problem the US has, especially in the large cities where nearly every large neighborhood has its own? Many of these crazies would love to have a notch carved representing a cop. More street cred.

For cops to be anything but hypervigilant would be nearly suicidal. People need to "get" this and act accordingly.

Rule #1: don't attack a cop

Rule #2: don't act like you're ramping up to #1

 

Yes its quite the vicious cycle. But all your doing is going to show that the US not only does a terrible job at training the police, but it does a terrible job at stopping crime. Our murder rate is 5 times higher than the next western country, but our police killings are 100 times more than the next developed country. No matter how you cut that, the gang activity does not account for this by itself or the rates would not be that lopsided. Germany's murder rate is 0.8 per 100,000 and the US is 4.7 per 100,000. Your chances of being killed by an American cop are about 0.33 per 100,000, but in Germany it is 0.0037 per 100,000. Or to put it simply.

 

America's murder rate is 5.875 times that of germanys. (per capita)

 

Americas police shootings is 89.19 times higher than germany's (per capita).

 

Thats a 15,181% disparity that cannot be accounted for.

 

So basically, no matter how you slice it your wrong. American police simply kill more for less of a reason that foreign cops.

 

The per capita rate of police killings in the US being 0.33 makes you more likley to get murdered by a cop in the US, than by a criminal in Iceland (0.3 per capita). That is incredible that countries have lower criminal murder rates than police shootings deaths.

[soniqstylz]

Next time on "Cop decides to escalate a situation and shoot, kill someone, and not be charged":

 

http://truthvoice.com/2015/03/cop-who-shot-at-dog-and-missed-killing-mother-instead-will-not-be-charged/

Autumn Steele, 34, of Burlington, Iowa, was shot and killed by Officer Jesse Hill the morning after a domestic dispute with her husband. The officer came to the house to

[wraith808]

And how many western nations have anywhere near the violent gang problem the US has, especially in the large cities where nearly every large neighborhood has its own? Many of these crazies would love to have a notch carved representing a cop. More street cred.

For cops to be anything but hypervigilant would be nearly suicidal. People need to "get" this and act accordingly.

Rule #1: don't attack a cop

Rule #2: don't act like you're ramping up to #1

 

 

Very relevant.  And I think what a lot of people are concerned about.  After all, only the living can speak for themselves.  Not saying that it's necessarily correct in these cases.  Just that... it's an option.  And when you're on the other side of that equation is too late to be concerned about it.

[soniqstylz]

And how many western nations have anywhere near the violent gang problem the US has, especially in the large cities where nearly every large neighborhood has its own? Many of these crazies would love to have a notch carved representing a cop. More street cred.

 

1) The UK has had violent gangs going back over 200 years.

 

2) Gang violence is down 65% from the 90's.  In fact it's at it's lowest since 1963.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/24/gang-violence-decline_n_6656840.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/20/us/gang-related-shootings-decline-in-chicago.html?_r=0

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_24410466/san-jose-stats-show-gang-violence-continues-decline

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/27/local/la-me-lapd-crime-20121228

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0109/US-crime-rate-at-lowest-point-in-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now

[DocM]

US govt. national Gang Center

http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/About/FAQ#q4

4. How extensive is the current gang problem?

>

While prevalence measures provide a straightforward and simplified assessment of the gang problem, a better measure pertains to the size, or magnitude, of the gang problem in terms of the number of gangs and gang members, as well as the number of gang crimes (discussed separately below). From the latest NYGS estimate provided by law enforcement agencies, there are approximately 30,000 gangs and 850,000 gang members across the United States. Compared with the previous five-year average, the estimated number of gangs has increased 8 percent and the estimated number of gang members 11 percent. Accounting for the largest share of these increases are larger cities

[MikeChipshop Member]

Thank god for that, for a minute i thought we'd seen the end of Time Team

[123456789A]

Law certainly does not trump personal opinion

 

Don't expect me to respond any further if you're going to accuse me of supporting the assault of police officers. I won't tolerate such character assassination.

 

I think you just assassinated your own character with that comment.

[Wyn6]

Well, this thread was predictable. Let's see:

 

Make assumptions based on claims without all the facts. Check.

 

Use of the term racist to refer to individuals of any given side of the incident. Check.

 

Pro-gunner Americans defending the cop. Check.

 

Anti-gunner Non-Americans defending the victim. Check.

 

Several mentions or citations of State/Federal laws, or the Constitution, pertaining to self-defense, guns, or the judicial system. Check.

 

Posting of crime statistics to support the number of officer involved shootings in the U.S. and the types of individuals shot. Check.

 

Posting of articles on cops who failed to be charged with what appears to be an unjustified shooting. Check.

 

Argument that the number of officer involved shootings is a problem in the U.S. Check.

 

Counter Argument rationalizing why it is not a problem. Check

 

Use of the phrase, "One less scumbag." or derivations thereof. Oops. Sorry. I was anticipating.

 

Attack on liberal(s) media. Check.

 

Attack on conservative(s) media. Check.

Thread devolving into a, "guns good/bad," debate. Check?

 

Double digit paged thread of all the above. Check?

[theyarecomingforyou]

There's your problem. You seem to think that these cops are happy that they've had to kill people. There are consequences to their actions just like there are consequences to attacking a police officer.

I'll start by quoting this post, which excellently sums up the issue:

Yes its quite the vicious cycle. But all your doing is going to show that the US not only does a terrible job at training the police, but it does a terrible job at stopping crime. Our murder rate is 5 times higher than the next western country, but our police killings are 100 times more than the next developed country. No matter how you cut that, the gang activity does not account for this by itself or the rates would not be that lopsided. Germany's murder rate is 0.8 per 100,000 and the US is 4.7 per 100,000. Your chances of being killed by an American cop are about 0.33 per 100,000, but in Germany it is 0.0037 per 100,000. Or to put it simply.

 

America's murder rate is 5.875 times that of germanys. (per capita)

 

Americas police shootings is 89.19 times higher than germany's (per capita).

 

Thats a 15,181% disparity that cannot be accounted for.

 

So basically, no matter how you slice it your wrong. American police simply kill more for less of a reason that foreign cops.

 

The per capita rate of police killings in the US being 0.33 makes you more likley to get murdered by a cop in the US, than by a criminal in Iceland (0.3 per capita). That is incredible that countries have lower criminal murder rates than police shootings deaths.

I'm not arguing that police enjoy killing unarmed suspects but there is basically no consequence for doing so, meaning that lethal force is used considerably more often than it should be. There are systemic issues with US policing and people are dying as a result. Everybody, regardless of their political ideology, should be concerned about that.

 

"Police officers need to be held to account." For what? Doing his job? How about we place the blame squarely where it belongs. On the person who decided to attack a person with a gun. Police officer or not.

The officer put himself in a dangerous position that resulted in the use of lethal force. He should have waited until it was safe to apprehend the suspect, by calling for backup and/or using non-lethal force (tasers, etc). Instead he bungled in and that resulted in an unnecessary death. It concerns me that you think the police are blameless in this situation. Some of the blame definitely lies with the police officer and the culture in which he operated.