EU Charging UK ebook lovers 20% extra!

[Sylar0]

Hi all Sylar here, I want the 20% TAX on e-books gone! Could you all please consider signing my e-book related petition? It started out as a project for the college but if it gets enough signatures who knows where it could go! Please note any international users of the forum can still sign by selecting their home country.

https://www.change.org/p/abolish-the-20-reading-tax

[Sylar0]

The EU is charging UK users 20% extra due to there classification of ebooks as a digital service rather than a book (books are tax free in the UK)

 

Read the story here http://tinyurl.com/abolish-the-20-reading-tax

 

Sign a petition to end the tax here https://www.change.org/p/abolish-the-20-reading-tax

 

Or join the campaign Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/abolishthereadingtax

 

International signatures welcome as many of the tech companies loosing out are American and the tax effects all EU member states.

[theyarecomingforyou]

There needs to be consistency. Personally I don't see why books are tax free, especially when other forms of entertainment are taxed the full rate.

[Sylar0]

There needs to be consistency. Personally I don't see why books are tax free, especially when other forms of entertainment are taxed the full rate.

 

Books are not just entertainment, they contain primary knowledge and academic information too. Non-fiction Is rarely considered entertainment. Unless I am wrong?

[theyarecomingforyou]

Books are not just entertainment, they contain primary knowledge and academic information too. Non-fiction Is rarely considered entertainment. Unless I am wrong?

There are non-fiction movies and TV shows as well, that doesn't mean you don't pay tax on them (DVD, Blu-ray, etc). So the question is, why should books be tax exempt?

[Sylar0]

There are non-fiction movies and TV shows as well, that doesn't mean you don't pay tax on them. So the question is, why should books be tax exempt?

They are still the prime source of all intellectual knowledge. Even none fiction movies and TV shows need to do research on issues somewhere. Plus books hold as a medium a hell of a lot of the historical information of man kind, TV and the Internet were invented only recently in comparison.

[theyarecomingforyou]

They are still the prime source of all intellectual knowledge. Even none fiction movies and TV shows need to do research on issues somewhere. Plus books hold as a medium a hell of a lot of the historical information of man kind, TV and the Internet were invented only recently in comparison.

So you're arguing that only non-fiction books should be tax exempt?

[Sylar0]

So you're arguing that only non-fiction books should be tax exempt?

 

Nope all books should be but non-fiction books are a heck of a good reason in general. The UK has always considered physical books a tax exempt good. The issue here is that eBooks are considered a digital service rather than a medium of access to a book. Thanks to EU law the UK can not even if it wanted to bring these "digital services" in line with books as they should be. The UK VAT exemption on books is because the government seems to consider them important for people to have access to. As with other cultural access books are rated at 0%, "Admission charges by public authorities or eligible cultural bodies to certain cultural events such as visits to museums, art exhibitions, zoos and performances" are also %0. With fiction books they still hold a massive amount of entertainment culture not on TV or the internet.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Nobody wants to pay tax but it funds vital services. There is no reason why books designed for entertainment should be taxed differently to movies, TV shows or video games. Your argument seems to be a combination of "but they're special" and "it's always been that way", which isn't very compelling. There's an argument that can be made for educational resources to be tax exempt but then you start to create a grey area which makes it difficult to enforce.

 

The EU legislation on VAT is designed to ensure companies cannot avoid tax when selling products to consumers. The reason ebooks are taxed as a service is that users can redownload them and have them tied to accounts, meaning they are not a product like a conventional book. This is a perfectly reasonable ruling that only highlights how bizarre it is that the UK doesn't charge tax on physical books.

[Sylar0]

Nobody wants to pay tax but it funds vital services. There is no reason why books designed for entertainment should be taxed differently to movies, TV shows or video games. Your argument seems to be a combination of "but they're special" and "it's always been that way", which isn't very compelling. There's an argument that can be made for educational resources to be tax exempt but then you start to create a grey area which makes it difficult to enforce.

 

The EU legislation on VAT is designed to ensure companies cannot avoid tax when selling products to consumers. The reason ebooks are taxed as a service is that users can redownload them and have them tied to accounts, meaning they are not a product like a conventional book. This is a perfectly reasonable ruling that only highlights how bizarre it is that the UK doesn't charge tax on physical books.

 

We will agree to disagree, many people in the UK don't mind paying for government services. No my argument is that READING material hasn't ever been to my knowledge taxed at 20% before as far as I know books have been free of tax since VAT was introduced, the issue here is a silly EU law not understanding that books are books whatever the form THEN the nations of the EU would be free to decide as they wish.

[MikeGalos]

There needs to be consistency. Personally I don't see why books are tax free, especially when other forms of entertainment are taxed the full rate.

Consistency IS the key. And the key here is that the EU is being inconsistent. Books should be charged the same tax rate no matter the medium used for delivery. The value is NOT the paper, it's the content. And that value does not change because of format.

 

[theyarecomingforyou]

Consistency IS the key. And the key here is that the EU is being inconsistent. Books should be charged the same tax rate no matter the medium used for delivery. The value is NOT the paper, it's the content. And that value does not change because of format.

A service is an intangible commodity, one in which the buyer doesn't usually obtain exclusive ownership. It's very clear that ebooks fall into that category.

 

We will agree to disagree, many people in the UK don't mind paying for government services. No my argument is that READING material hasn't ever been to my knowledge taxed at 20% before as far as I know books have been free of tax since VAT was introduced, the issue here is a silly EU law not understanding that books are books whatever the form THEN the nations of the EU would be free to decide as they wish.

Just because it hasn't been done before isn't an argument that it shouldn't be done now.

[Skiver Veteran]

Threads Merged - Please don't spam the forums with the same topic over and over

 

I'm afraid I'm with others here, removing VAT from something is never the best idea when we are already a struggling country. If we want consistency, I'd side with those saying books should have VAT added on.

[jakem1]

Fiction can be just as educational as non-fiction and is more likely to educate than the equivalent movie.  Comparing books to games doesn't even make sense.  Obviously not all books are educational but it seems sensible to exempt all books for simplicity's sake.

 

The EU's position on this seems untenable and I hope France and Belgium appeal the recent court decision.  It seems to all come down to the fact that an e-book reader is required to read an e-book which makes little sense.  You could apply tax to the reader and still exempt the actual e-books.  I certainly wouldn't expect the ConDem government to do anything about this though.  They've proven time and time again that they're only interest in education lies in how much of it they can hand over to their mates in the private sector..

[FloatingFatMan]

Threads Merged - Please don't spam the forums with the same topic over and over

 

I'm afraid I'm with others here, removing VAT from something is never the best idea when we are already a struggling country. If we want consistency, I'd side with those saying books should have VAT added on.

 

Likewise. I don't mind either way if we pay VAT for books or not, but both print and eBooks should be charged at the same rate, otherwise it's just silly.

 

The only exception to VAT really should be school textbooks.

You could apply tax to the reader and still exempt the actual e-books.  I certainly wouldn't expect the ConDem government to do anything about this though.  They've proven time and time again that they're only interest in education lies in how much of it they can hand over to their mates in the private sector..

 

You seem to be under the delusion that the other teams would be even remotely different... Labour have proven time & again that THEIR only interest is doing what their trade union overlords tell them to do.

 

Oh, and spend all the UK's money, and leave the incoming government a "There's no money left" note...

 

Classy.

[Sylar0]

Consistency IS the key. And the key here is that the EU is being inconsistent. Books should be charged the same tax rate no matter the medium used for delivery. The value is NOT the paper, it's the content. And that value does not change because of format.

 

Agreed.

 

A service is an intangible commodity, one in which the buyer doesn't usually obtain exclusive ownership. It's very clear that ebooks fall into that category.

 

Just because it hasn't been done before isn't an argument that it shouldn't be done now.

If memory serves if you look in any paperback book you own at the legal information you will find you don't "own" the paper ink and binding, what you purchased was the right to access the book when ever and where ever you wish.

 

Threads Merged - Please don't spam the forums with the same topic over and over

 

I'm afraid I'm with others here, removing VAT from something is never the best idea when we are already a struggling country. If we want consistency, I'd side with those saying books should have VAT added on.

Sorry only posted it in general and back page, but ill keep on here as more people seem to want to discuss it here. As a mod are you allowed to take sides in a discussion? Never the less, personally i'd argue we waste a lot of money on the likes of nuclear weapons and ministerial cars, with a 3 billion price tag to do up the Palace of Westminster surely we can find money for this?

 

Fiction can be just as educational as non-fiction and is more likely to educate than the equivalent movie.  Comparing books to games doesn't even make sense.  Obviously not all books are educational but it seems sensible to exempt all books for simplicity's sake.

 

The EU's position on this seems untenable and I hope France and Belgium appeal the recent court decision.  It seems to all come down to the fact that an e-book reader is required to read an e-book which makes little sense.  You could apply tax to the reader and still exempt the actual e-books.  I certainly wouldn't expect the ConDem government to do anything about this though.  They've proven time and time again that they're only interest in education lies in how much of it they can hand over to their mates in the private sector..

Tax is applied to the readers as far as I know. I don't see why they would be exempt. Even if the ConDems won't we can lay the foundation for the next parliament and this problem is enshrined in EU law. 

 

Likewise. I don't mind either way if we pay VAT for books or not, but both print and eBooks should be charged at the same rate, otherwise it's just silly.

 

The only exception to VAT really should be school textbooks.

 

You seem to be under the delusion that the other teams would be even remotely different... Labour have proven time & again that THEIR only interest is doing what their trade union overlords tell them to do.

 

Oh, and spend all the UK's money, and leave the incoming government a "There's no money left" note...

 

Classy.

Left, right all UK parities have issues but I hope this can get support across the political divide. If after reading this anyone wants to sign https://www.change.org/p/abolish-the-20-reading-tax

[Skiver Veteran]

<snip>

 

Sorry only posted it in general and back page, but ill keep on here as more people seem to want to discuss it here. As a mod are you allowed to take sides in a discussion? Never the less, personally i'd argue we waste a lot of money on the likes of nuclear weapons and ministerial cars, with a 3 billion price tag to do up the Palace of Westminster surely we can find money for this?

 

<snip>

 

Yeah, they do occasionally allow us to have an opinion 

 

It's easy to say things like that, but they aren't going to change are they? I agree with FFM, books no matter what form should have VAT added except if they are a school text book. I'd rather see us add VAT to books and not see the cuts we see to front line services. 

[Sylar0]

Yeah, they do occasionally allow us to have an opinion 

 

It's easy to say things like that, but they aren't going to change are they? I agree with FFM, books no matter what form should have VAT added except if they are a school text book. I'd rather see us add VAT to books and not see the cuts we see to front line services. 

They are not either or, a lot of money is wasted on worst things such as Nuclear weapons and MPs expenses. Not to mention the cost of parliamentary renovation.

[torrentthief]

books improve reading and writing skills and improve spelling etc. Watching films doesn't. Books and ebooks shouldn't be taxed but the E.U dictatorship says that we must tax ebooks. This will result in more people buying the paper versions resulting in increased carbon emissions due to transport and paper manufacturing processes, something the E.U claims we must spend a fortune on renewable energy to combat. How ironic.

[Sylar0]

books improve reading and writing skills and improve spelling etc. Watching films doesn't. Books and ebooks shouldn't be taxed but the E.U dictatorship says that we must tax ebooks. This will result in more people buying the paper versions resulting in increased carbon emissions due to transport and paper manufacturing processes, something the E.U claims we must spend a fortune on renewable energy to combat. How ironic.

Feel free to sign my friend.

[theyarecomingforyou]

They are not either or, a lot of money is wasted on worst things such as Nuclear weapons and MPs expenses. Not to mention the cost of parliamentary renovation.

That's a separate issue. At the end of the day we're seeing massive cuts in funding to the NHS, police, councils and other frontline services. If a tax on books can help maintain those services and reduce the level of cuts then I support it, especially as I don't see any compelling reason why they should be tax exempt. That doesn't also mean we shouldn't cut wasteful programmes, like the unnecessary spending on nuclear weapons and wars in the Middle East.

[Sylar0]

That's a separate issue. At the end of the day we're seeing massive cuts in funding to the NHS, police, councils and other frontline services. If a tax on books can help maintain those services and reduce the level of cuts then I support it, especially as I don't see any compelling reason why they should be tax exempt. That doesn't also mean we shouldn't cut wasteful programmes, like the unnecessary spending on nuclear weapons and wars in the Middle East.

Yes but the eBook tax is an injustice and a drop in the ocean.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Yes but the eBook tax is an injustice and a drop in the ocean.

One could argue the tax exempt status of physical books is the real injustice.

[Sylar0]

One could argue the tax exempt status of physical books is the real injustice.

Why the British people are taxed enough. Books are a fundamental need of most people in some form.

[Skiver Veteran]

Why the British people are taxed enough. Books are a fundamental need of most people in some form.

 

Then buy a book, not an ebook!

 

I'm sorry but I just cannot feel sorry for a person who wants to buy an e-book. I completely understand its positives, but at the end of the day its a "premium" device that if money was such an issue, you would not be able to afford.