emdrive NASA breakthrough -- the EM Drive actually works!

[Nick H. Supervisor]

Using the well-known equation for the frequency of a cylindrical cavity (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_cavity#Cylindrical_cavity ) , the frequency for a TM mode is:

fmnp =( c/(2 Pi Sqrt[?r ?r]) ) Sqrt[(Xmn/R)^2+(p Pi / L)^2]

for TM010 we have m=0, n=1, p=0 and therefore:

D = 2 R = ( c/(Pi Sqrt[?r ?r]) ) X01/f010

and since the speed of light in air is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light ):

c/(Sqrt[?r ?r]) = 299700000 m/s

and the Bessel Zero for m=0, n=1 is (see http://wwwal.kuicr.kyoto-u.ac.jp/www/accelerator/a4/besselroot.htmlx ):

X01 = 2.40482555769577

and the frequency, according to Paul March (see http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1355764#msg1355764 ) was:

f010 = 1.48*10^9 Hz

We conclude that the diameter of the cylindrical resonant cavity used in these experiments was:

D = (299700000 m/s)*2.40482555769577 / (Pi * 1.48*10^9 1/s) = 0.1550 m = 6.103 inches

However, the idea of warp fields is great stuff. Here's hoping someone didn't make a mistake.

[FloatingFatMan]

It's actually warp factor 7.388

 

So, you're saying they actually achieved 785.3c, or is it 2.15c?

[netty2014]

Hi, Let me introduce you to a subject known worldwide as physics!

Physics is the best understanding that humans currently have of the world, and is modelled with equations to match real life as possible. As it's all measured experimentally, it's not the 'absolute' law of the world, and as previously mentioned is the best understanding that humans have at the current time, so this does mean that many equations we use every day now are probably wrong, how wrong? Well, that depends on many things.

The point of physics isn't to model everything to 100%, because that is impossible, would take an absolutely excessive amount of time and offers little gain, the point of physics is to discover mostly accurate models.

Now that've been educated slightly, try coming up with a new comment that's worth reading.

Thanks,

-n_K

physics might be the the only thing human beings have found that they think they can solve if we didn't look at every aspect of any object atom etc we would have no idea of what it is engineered from or for that matter how it works if you look closer into our history we made massive advances during the worst part of our existence as we do evolve over powerful men and women that force it to do so  but evolution and design is not only an understanding of our universe and our own planet but the knowing of how we all got here and where we are going my statement I hold up as true and your entitled to your opinion but like I said "time" was invented circa 326 BC by 12 Roman senates in the council of nicia in nicia around that period or so we now this from history the world is a lot older than we know and I am sure that "time" is not a factor in the evolution of anything if its wrong it rights itself at its own pace and it is made the way it should be when it is, your moment in the world is now the moment of your life is now, enjoy it your a bright person! just one last thing dont let the judgement of others cloud your thought and feeling and go your own way in life like we all do

[IsItPluggedIn]

physics might be the the only thing human beings have found that they think they can solve if we didn't look at every aspect of any object atom etc we would have no idea of what it is engineered from or for that matter how it works if you look closer into our history we made massive advances during the worst part of our existence as we do evolve over powerful men and women that force it to do so  but evolution and design is not only an understanding of our universe and our own planet but the knowing of how we all got here and where we are going my statement I hold up as true and your entitled to your opinion but like I said "time" was invented circa 326 BC by 12 Roman senates in the council of nicia in nicia around that period or so we now this from history the world is a lot older than we know and I am sure that "time" is not a factor in the evolution of anything if its wrong it rights itself at its own pace and it is made the way it should be when it is, your moment in the world is now the moment of your life is now, enjoy it your a bright person! just one last thing dont let the judgement of others cloud your thought and feeling and go your own way in life like we all do

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuation

 

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com

 

Try this.

[T3X4S]

I barely understand some of the physics mentioned in that forum.  I did not take physics in college, and have only tried to educate myself in the last couple years.

But, I know enough that I dont know crap.  So when I read a bunch of comments from people who think they have it all figured out after reading 1 article, I always want to say, " things are much more complicated when you know all of the details."

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

So, you're saying they actually achieved 785.3c, or is it 2.15c?

They claim they got 785.3c, I think they're mistaken

[Forjo]

Umm, more like warp 1.2... Here's the standard scale usually referred to:

 

 

Warp 7.4 is more like around 800c on the scale... You're reading the Wolfram site wrong... Even that agrees, warp 7.4 is 789.7c according to that.

I'm not reading it wrong. You're interpreting the data wrong. You can't get to Alpha Centauri in 2 days at only twice the speed of light.

 

-Forjo

So, you're saying they actually achieved 785.3c, or is it 2.15c?

Yes, that's what they're saying: Sol to Alpha Centauri in four days round trip.

 

-Forjo

[Forjo]

However, the idea of warp fields is great stuff. Here's hoping someone didn't make a mistake.

Note that what you quoted was just the guys trying to figure out the shape of the chamber the experiment had used. Based on the data that had been released at the time, the number supported a cylindrical chamber as opposed to a conical one. It's since been confirmed that the experiment did in fact us a cylindrical chamber.

 

The interesting stuff is elsewhere in the thread.

 

-Forjo

[GotBored]

I'm not reading it wrong. You're interpreting the data wrong. You can't get to Alpha Centauri in 2 days at only twice the speed of light.

 

Alpha Centauri is 4.367 light years away from earth, so it would take 4.367 years to travel to Alpha Centauri at light speed. Reaching Alpha Centauri in 2 days is not twice the speed of light it is almost 797x the speed of light going by a range over time factor.

 

Also in other posts people mentioned the posts on the forum where people talk about the space-time folding and travelling back in time, I'd suggest ignoring those posts as they hold no value. People used to think you'd travel back in time when you got in a plane and went into another time zone (They use the same thought pattern to justify how this will do the same) and have most likely just watched too much star trek or something similar and just wanted to add their two cents to the thread.

 

This outcome if proven true and not just a false reading won't really mean much in regards to space travel, pushing a beam of light beyond its regular speed is a lot different to pushing mass at anywhere near those speeds. EM Drives are a prototype to try advance past using consumable liquid/gas fuels for thrust as you cannot hold a unlimited supply of liquid/gas fuel to travel through space while electricity on the other hand can be a unlimited supply of fuel by using solar radiation to continually resupply. But current prototypes can barely push air let alone a craft big enough to support passengers through space. So all I'm saying is just because the forum thread talks of EM Drives and travelling at 797x the speed of light its not an advancement for space travel per say, but it is an advancement for communications between vast masses. For example say we did figure out a way to get to Alpha Centauri and we had people there, we could use this technology to transmit a message to them in only 2 days.

[Forjo]

Alpha Centauri is 4.367 light years away from earth, so it would take 4.367 years to travel to Alpha Centauri at light speed. Reaching Alpha Centauri in 2 days is not twice the speed of light it is almost 797x the speed of light going by a range over time factor.

 

Also in other posts people mentioned the posts on the forum where people talk about the space-time folding and travelling back in time, I'd suggest ignoring those posts as they hold no value. People used to think you'd travel back in time when you got in a plane and went into another time zone (They use the same thought pattern to justify how this will do the same) and have most likely just watched too much star trek or something similar and just wanted to add their two cents to the thread.

 

This outcome if proven true and not just a false reading won't really mean much in regards to space travel, pushing a beam of light beyond its regular speed is a lot different to pushing mass at anywhere near those speeds. EM Drives are a prototype to try advance past using consumable liquid/gas fuels for thrust as you cannot hold a unlimited supply of liquid/gas fuel to travel through space while electricity on the other hand can be a unlimited supply of fuel by using solar radiation to continually resupply. But current prototypes can barely push air let alone a craft big enough to support passengers through space. So all I'm saying is just because the forum thread talks of EM Drives and travelling at 797x the speed of light its not an advancement for space travel per say, but it is an advancement for communications between vast masses. For example say we did figure out a way to get to Alpha Centauri and we had people there, we could use this technology to transmit a message to them in only 2 days.

I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me -- I was making the point that the speeds they are getting are NOT 2C. Your number of 797C is closer to what I had which was based on 2.14*365 (2.14 LY per day times days in a year).

 

That said, the rest of your post is true, of course, but the conclusion is a little off. They were using light to test the EM drive, but the real news, if true, is that WHATEVER is in that field is getting accelerated 780-ish times. If the vacuum test yields the same results, this in combination with the conical versions of the chamber which are designed to produce thrust could in fact result in usable spacecraft. This is precisely what many of the scientists in the thread are discussing. Sure, information communication will be possible along with (and possibly before) large-scale vessels. But this technology, if real, is directly applicable to space travel.

 

-Forjo

[DocM]

IF it works, big if, I nominate that the first operational warp capable vessel be named the Roddenberry.

[Krome]

IF it works, big if, I nominate that the first operational warp capable vessel be named the Roddenberry.

or... "DocM Dreamweaver"

[JustGeorge]

And if/when they begin test flights, they're going to proceed very cautiously. It certainly won't be with live subjects at first -- that will come later on, when the technology is determined to be safe.

 

Likely what they will do:

 

- Equip a series of probes with a multitude of sensors and computers, including Atomic Clocks, synchronized to an identical clock on the ground as a control.

- Fly Test Missions; first to Lunar Orbit, since they can get telemetry and data nearly instantly and note any visual effects upon the Probe as it exits the Warp Bubble as well as the local environment,

- Then at various "Milestone Markers" such as the L-1 point, then study the data they receive and note any discrepancies including clock differences (which would indicate any relativistic processes at work)

- Adjust the technology from that point as needed to make it safe for live subjects.

 

They won't do anything until the above happens, and it could take 10~15 years the way NASA operates. If there's a big enough push it'll be far less time (like with the Saturn/Apollo Program), but there would need to be a really huge political component to the equation.

 

@ Forjo: Warp 7.4, eh? Not bad.

I'm an eternal skeptic, but if they announced tomorrow that they have developed a real warp drive and explained to the public what that means, I guarantee you that most of the civilized world would go ape ###### and get behind it. I bet they'd have manned missions within 10-15yrs, assuming other factors get worked out (energy production, craft assembly logistics, fecal storage and disposal during interstellar travel, etc).

 

You know what would be cool? Warp out to the voyager probes, retrieve/upgrade them with warp tech and send them back out. A personal mission of mine would be to warp out to Pluto and drop a sex swing and a Maytag washer on the surface. There would also be a motion activated camera positioned to capture the WTF moment by whomever stumbles upon those items.

[Unobscured Vision]

Even if it's not FTL yet, it's a huge leap forward for space travel once we get a practical device working and able to be outfitted to spacecraft. Boosting inertia by 797 times is quite a trick indeed, but users need to be careful with how it is applied. There are also more things to consider than just "we have this new technology":

 

New procedures need to be developed, including better and more robust safety systems -- one does not want to rip apart their vessel while performing a corrective maneuver, or end up like the Russian Progress vessel this morning, spinning out of control likely due to a computer fault or a failure in an RCS Thruster.

 

Current navigation systems need to be updated and made smarter -- Objects in space move too, and from our vantage point on Earth, we see them as they were, not as they are. Remember, the speed of light is also the speed of information. Imagine that we arrive at Neptune only to find that we are four and a half light-hours off-course ... that could either be fine (and need to lower our orbit) or we could find ourselves 100 miles above the cloud tops in a rapidly decaying orbit (at which point we need to haul ass out of there). We need to make sure Navigation Systems can cope with how things move in space correctly.

 

Maneuvering Systems are good but could use an evolution -- the basis hasn't changed much in 50 years, but prototype designs are being developed and tested all the time. An unnamed Government agency somewhere in the world is possibly testing a Xenon-based Ion RCS system on an upcoming flight of something something darkside something ...

 

Life Support Systems are good already, and getting better -- We've made tons of progress in this area compared to the systems currently on the ISS. Give it ten more years and these systems will improve even more. Nothing to worry about in this area.

 

Power Generation technologies are improving too, but still need work -- To be fair, the capabilities of Solar in tandem with other sources of power (like Fuel Cells) are the way to go if you're operating within 5 AU (Jupiter). Beyond that, we need RTG's (Radioisotope Thermal Generators) like Voyager, Cassini, and New Horizons are using. Sadly, their output is limited, so we need high-output sources. Fuel Cells could be the answer for short-term missions (3 weeks), but if the mission lasts longer than that there could be a problem ...

 

And all indications are that this technology can be throttled, as any other propulsion device can be, but they have to work out the details as of yet.

 

So yeah, lots of work to be done.

 

[EDIT] It chopped half of my post. Ugh.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

NASA has been using ion thrusters for manoeuvring sats for ages (Since the early 90s), the Russians have been doing it even longer, it's nothing new. And accounting for movement of bodies in space is again nothing new, they needed to do that for the original moon landings.

Also, even people in the original forum thread are starting to tear apart the experiment, much like the previous time they claimed a "breakthrough", the device is still showing as generating thrust even when turned off.

[Unobscured Vision]

That's good. If it's not passing peer review, then there's something wrong with the methodology or the experiment itself, and needs to be handed over to another team. They need to be absolutely sure about these findings, one way or another.

 

That's the great thing about Science. We take the good as well as the bad, and if it can't pass muster then we find out why and press on.

 

If there's a cause that is producing the observed effects, then they need to find out what is doing it and isolate the particulars. It's obvious that there's something going on, that much is certain.

[Unobscured Vision]

Yeah, definitely something going on with their test setup. I've read the latest entries and the "Russian Contingent", who is looking over the testing data is ripping them a new one ... it pretty much amounts to "you have no idea if it's natural (Earth) vibration, noise from the WIFI router, or actual force from your device?!".

 

They're being as polite as possible about it, they really are -- but very direct, and rightly so. This is a big deal, and the test conditions are so critical.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Every single test of the EM Drive has been flawed in one way or another, combined with nobody having any idea how it's actually supposed to work, doesn't fill me with hope that it actually does anything.

[FloatingFatMan]

IF it works, big if, I nominate that the first operational warp capable vessel be named the Roddenberry.

 

Whilst that would be awesome, would it not be better if the first warp capable ship were called, The Phoenix?

[Torolol]

WOne

[DocM]

Whilst that would be awesome, would it not be better if the first warp capable ship were called, The Phoenix?

Development ship Phoenix, as in Star Trek, operational ship Roddenberry.

[Gladiatorus]

Me after trying to read the NASA forum

 

 

[DocM]

You should try L2. Exceedingly cool, but without a sci/tech background sometimes....

[FloatingFatMan]

Development ship Phoenix, as in Star Trek, operational ship Roddenberry.

 

Deal!

 

And the second operational ship HAS to be the Enterprise!

[DocM]

Done! Now all we have to do is convince NASA and the USAF Space Command.