DocM Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Wow....The hammer's coming down after the recent Progress and Proton failures, and this time there's some public, brutal, honesty about the deteriorated state of the Russian space industry. Highlights: the US space industry is 9 times as efficient, and they have no digital design. Now to get some follow through. They could start with doing what SpaceX did** and get some good CFD people. ** http://blogs.citrix.com/2014/06/02/spacex-and-gpu-virtualization-on-citrix-xendesktop-reducing-the-complexity-of-a-siemens-teamcenter-deployment-its-not-rocket-science/ http://www.spacedaily.com/m/reports/Russian_deputy_PM_attacks_space_industry_with_reform_bill_999.html Russian deputy PM attacks space industry with reform bill Moscow (AFP) May 20, 2015 Russia's deputy prime minister on Tuesday lambasted the country's beleaguered space industry as inefficient and corrupt, as he presented proposed reform measures to parliament. Speaking several days after the latest failures in the sector -- including the botched launch of a Proton rocket that led to the loss of a Mexican satellite -- Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said the industry was plagued by "morally decayed" officials and underpaid personnel. He reserved the most biting criticism for the Khrunichev space centre, which produces the Proton rockets. After the latest failure, investigators launched probes targeting the lab's ex-employees for allegedly falsifying documents and causing a loss of nine billion rubles ($180 million, 161 million euros), Rogozin said. "With such high moral decay of its leadership, one should not be surprised at the product's poor quality," he said. He said the latest accident with the Proton rocket is identical to two other accidents in 1988 and 2014, which shows that the high-profile probes into them "did not find the real reason" for the malfunction. Khrunichev employs 13 times the people working at Orbital Sciences, a US firm which launches supply missions to the International Space Station, Rogozin said, while in general the US space industry is "nine times more efficient" than the Russian one. The hawkish deputy prime minister, who is in charge of defence and space sectors in the government, warned that Russia was on its way towards losing its competitive edge in space, as he presented bills that the government believes will begin to fix the problems. The Duma lower house swiftly passed the reform package in its initial reading, which would amend a total of 23 different laws. The bill would need to go through two more readings before it could be approved by the upper chamber and Russian President Vladimir Putin. 'Stuck' in 20th century The proposed measures are aimed at streamlining the industry by reorganising the federal space agency Roscosmos into a "state corporation", and boosting salaries for staff. The corporation -- modelled after Rosatom, which oversees the country's nuclear industry -- would be headed by Igor Komarov, who has served as the chief of Roscosmos since 2013 after a career in banking and a four-year stint as chief executive of Russian carmaker Avtovaz. The production of rockets and spacecraft would become more computerised and automated, Rogozin said, hinting at future layoffs from the bloated workforce. Many engineers working in the industry make only 30,000 rubles ($600) per month and are able to make ends meet only by living in dormitories far from Moscow, he said. "People must be paid an adequate salary," he said. "If we want to keep them in the country... to keep them in the industry, we must pay them adequately." "We still don't know what digital design is in the industry," he added. "It's an embarrassment, we are still stuck at the turn of the century." "We need a guaranteed and inexpensive access to space," he said, lowering the cost associated with space launches by several times. "Only then we can keep our competitiveness," he said. SALSN 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Red King Subscriber² Posted May 19, 2015 Subscriber² Share Posted May 19, 2015 They spend all their money on invading other nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctebah Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 They spend all their money on invading other nations. Hahahaha the irony in that post. But back on topic, the Russians are using outdated technologies and it's time they start investing more than just money into their programs. Time to turn away from being too proud and admit the shortcomings. theyarecomingforyou, SALSN, +E.Worm Jimmy and 1 other 4 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+E.Worm Jimmy Subscriber¹ Posted May 19, 2015 Subscriber¹ Share Posted May 19, 2015 ... how. they try with money but the state of affairs is sorrow. best people left years ago in the nineties. only leftovers and newbies have to run it now, not too badly, but cannot expect them to start from scratch greatly it might catch up, it might not. it might be interfered with, it might not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctebah Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 how. they try with money but the state of affairs is sorrow. best people left years ago in the nineties. only leftovers and newbies have to run it now, not too badly, but cannot expect them to start from scratch greatly it might catch up, it might not. it might be interfered with, it might not... Investment in the education sector and incentives for graduates to go into fields that will directly benefit to the space industry. A good competition among firms is also necessary. Start at the root of the problem +E.Worm Jimmy 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torrentthief Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 They spend all their money on invading other nations. are you talking about america? They are the only country that spends about 40% of it's gdp on it's military. The 2nd closest is about 13%. +E.Worm Jimmy, natocccp and shockz 3 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unobscured Vision Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Ouch. It's been a whirlwind 12 months for everyone in the Aerospace Industry throughout the world. SpaceX has never had a better year, ULA and Roscosmos are falling off a cliff, and Orbital is still dusting themselves off from the Wallops accident (and debacle, which they still have to finish paying for). Time for Roscosmos to upgrade? Probably. This is their big "calling out". If they can't adapt, they'll perish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devn00b Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Wow ~$600USD a month is less than minimum wage here. No wonder they are having issues lmao. They are the "burger flippers" of the engineering world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 The first things they have to do are, 1) fix Soyuz 2-1a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draggendrop Veteran Posted May 20, 2015 Veteran Share Posted May 20, 2015 The first things they have to do are, 1) fix Soyuz 2-1a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Corruption in Russian government... Who'da thunk? The only way they'll ever sort that is if they shoot everyone above front line staff, and keep shooting until you find someone who isn't as bent as a 90 degree corner. Gonna need lots and lots of bullets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draggendrop Veteran Posted May 21, 2015 Veteran Share Posted May 21, 2015 I hope they can begin to address this mess in a timely fashion... Investment in the education sector and incentives for graduates to go into fields that will directly benefit to the space industry. A good competition among firms is also necessary. Start at the root of the problem I really think that this is the long term solution, educational incentives for the sciences with hope of a reasonable paying job...the kids are the future..Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draggendrop Veteran Posted May 25, 2015 Veteran Share Posted May 25, 2015 Looks like the first offenders caught in corruption probe...kick backs...house arrest... http://tass.ru/en/russia/796505 same info here as well... http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37662.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Say it isn't so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ks8877 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Corruption present in every country. Just in some countries (like Russia) it's in simple primitive way, but in others corruption is well organized in multilayer system (you know where such complicated system exist). Enough about that. The good news is the old space systems going away, and new going forward. SpaceX will rule the industry very soon - within the next few years when old contracts completed, and most new contracts will go the SpaceX way. With soon will be accomplished first stage landing, SpaceX will need mostly to produce just second stages and it will be plenty their rockets available, and price will go down... It's the begining of new era in space exploration !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 They still have reusability infrastructure to finish development on and install. Basically, hardware which can take a landed stage horizontal and to a refurb hangar for requalification in support daily launches. No joke, that's what they're targeting. It'll take that to replace worn out satellites in their 4,000+ unit data satellite constellation, and those of other groups getting into that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 26, 2015 Author Share Posted May 26, 2015 http://www.parabolicarc.com/2015/05/25/roscosmos-financial-violations/#sthash.uvH6tLxw.dpuf Russian Audit Committee Finds Mind Boggling Financial Violations at Roscosmos More bad news for Russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draggendrop Veteran Posted May 26, 2015 Veteran Share Posted May 26, 2015 Congress/House committees, when armed with this data, which I am sure they are, are going to have a tough time justifying RD-180 purchases in the near future.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unobscured Vision Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 It's a true crime that a Space Program with the storied history of Roscosmos has been reduced to ... well, this. It can be salvaged, reorganized, and revitalized; but it's suffering from years of mismanagement, corruption, and neglect. The same agency that sent Yuri Gagarin into space, orbited Sputnik, and did all of the other things they have done .. deserving of the entire World's respect .. it makes me sad and angry to see that it has been reduced to the plaything of a few greedy miscreants who cannot appreciate its' history. Putin is justified and correct to "clean house" over there. It needed to happen a long time ago. But real change won't happen unless the people working in the various industries, labs and support sciences for the Program as a whole aren't being treated/compensated properly either. So yes, things need to change over there. As far as Air Force/ULA needing the RD-180's ... we should have had a replacement for those, or reverse-engineered them, a long time ago. It's not like we don't know how they work. And now that SpaceX has certification for MilGov Missions, that particular point is now moot. ULA has lost the argument, and is now out of excuses why they need the ban lifted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 We've had the plans for RD-180 for ages through the US-Russia joint venture RD AMROSS and could have opened a US production line, but neither Congress or ULA would foot the bill. Now it's moot: SpaceX (Raptor), Blue Origin (BE-4) and AeroJet (AR-1) are all working on privately funded, large, modern engines. Separately, AeroJet and Dynetics are working on an upgraded Saturn V F-1 engine, the F-1B, using modern construction techniques like 3D printing. RD-180 is toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unobscured Vision Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Yep. All of the above. There is no longer any room for foot dragging, delaying, stalling, and industrial-grade foolishness. And this latest round could cost ULA the farm. Failure to adapt, folks. The Vulcan design has potential, but I doubt they can get it out the door in time -- not with Bruno at the helm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 I could see Blue Origin (with Jeff Bezos' $billion$) buying out ULA. BTW: Blue may be building a factory in Florida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tompkin Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 i have followed the U.S. space program in the past (from a distance). I love to watch the rockets launch, etc., and watched the moon landing. I have not been able to understand the "business case" for space exploration. Normally, a private firm will invest in technologies that will ultimately return them a profit. Obviously SpaceX, et al., believe there is a profit or they wouldn't be doing it but I just haven't been able to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draggendrop Veteran Posted May 27, 2015 Veteran Share Posted May 27, 2015 Not everything is about profit...sometimes just paying the bills with miscellaneous work will enable the bigger personal goal to be achieved...in this case...space exploration with the goal of colonizing Mars. The following is my opinion only...The last 40 years has culminated in "lost dreams" for space exploration and the numerous spin offs this creates. Greedy corporate giants who eat competition ran rampant. The "young guns have put their feet down" which will force all interested parties to eventually be cost effective or move to another field.But... the big difference now...The "lost" dreams" have been woken, but instead of a "visionary" like Mr. Kennedy, we have individual "private corporations" playing the part....the modern space age is gearing up....and it's exciting... tompkin 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ks8877 Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 ... As far as Air Force/ULA needing the RD-180's ... we should have had a replacement for those, or reverse-engineered them, a long time ago... Not so easy... RD-180 has some secrets that will not works with reverse-engineered: some of parts built from special metals that sustain very hot, high pressure, oxygen rich environment. So russians also have some secrets in advanced metallurgy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts