What Edward Snowden Got Wrong about Eavesdropping on Aliens

[Thomas the Tank Engine]

Edward Snowden, the former contractor who leaked National Security Agency secrets publicly in 2013, is now getting attention for an odd subject: aliens.

In a podcast interview with astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, Snowden suggested that alien communications might be encrypted so well that humans trying to eavesdrop on extraterrestrials would have no idea they were hearing anything but noise. There's only a small window in the development of communication in which unencrypted messages are the norm, Snowden said.

"So if you have an alien civilization trying to listen for other civilizations, or our civilization trying to listen for aliens, there's only one small period in the development of their society where all of their communications will be sent via the most primitive and most unprotected means," he said.

But those holding out hope for contact from extraterrestrials can breathe easy: Humanity's current search for alien intelligence doesn't rely on an intelligible message, say scientists with the SETI Institute, which is dedicated to the search for life in the universe. The real hunt, they say, is for the medium. 

"We're not looking for the message," said Seth Shostak, director of the SETI Institute's Center for SETI Research. "We're looking for the signal that tells us that somebody has a transmitter." [13 Ways to Hunt for Intelligent Aliens]

 

 

Read the rest: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-edward-snowden-got-wrong-about-eavesdropping-on-aliens/

[neufuse Veteran]

what I never got about this whole listening for aliens thing is how are we sure they even ever used RF for communication? maybe they went past that and had something we never came up with first... can't listen for something you never had... sure our first "radio" was what we see as radio, maybe there is a property of physics we haven't found yet, that they started with...

[simplezz]

what I never got about this whole listening for aliens thing is how are we sure they even ever used RF for communication? maybe they went past that and had something we never came up with first... can't listen for something you never had... sure our first "radio" was what we see as radio, maybe there is a property of physics we haven't found yet, that they started with...

Radio is also incredibly slow (even in a vacuum) compared to the size of galaxies and the universe. It's becoming increasingly apparent that our planet and solar system are unique and the likelihood of other intelligent life is slim at best. The Drake equation is analogous to current climate models. That is to say, woefully inadequate. So even if our signals do manage to travel the vast distances of space millions of years from now, it's unlikely that they'll encounter anything except empty space.

 

[Unobscured Vision]

I agree with what neufuse and simplezz said. RF Communication is so slow and inefficient even at distances within our own Solar System -- it takes signals upwards of three seconds to make a two-way jump to the Moon and back. Nobody out *there* is going to be using RF by itself.

I understand that we Humans can only relate to our own experiences and things within our own paradigm -- but even as a child I knew that the so-called SETI Program was a waste of time, because RF Comms is crap.

Perhaps some sort of Quantum Tunneling or Quantum Entanglement system would be more what is needed for Interstellar Comms, or a combination of different technologies applied creatively. All of this needs to be developed and tested, of course -- by people more qualified to speak on the subject than Snowden. 

Like he'd have any idea about the subject?

[JustGeorge]

I imagine advanced aliens are using quantum entanglement for communications, like what we're experimenting with now. That would be the only way to communicate over such distances.

http://phys.org/news/2015-03-quantum-einstein-spooky-action-distance.html

 

Did Snowden snag any docs on aliens, btw?

Edited September 27, 2015 by AR556

[Anibal P]

Is this the beginning of the Snowden farce falling apart? Hope so, so overrated in EVERYTHING he supposedly did it is not funny and defies logic for anyone with even the smallest bit of knowledge about classified military and 3 letter agency requirements and access

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

what I never got about this whole listening for aliens thing is how are we sure they even ever used RF for communication? maybe they went past that and had something we never came up with first... can't listen for something you never had... sure our first "radio" was what we see as radio, maybe there is a property of physics we haven't found yet, that they started with...

That's actually been pointed out before, we're much quieter radio wise now than we were 50 years ago or so, because we've moved from mainly RF transmissions to physical connections (Fiber beats radio) Aliens might be using some cool quantum entanglement based comms methods, but that's something we could never realistically verify, so nice idea at best I suppose.

Snowden raises a good point about encryption, but Seth Shostak has a better response. Even a well encrypted signal is still a signal, it'll be many times the power of the background noise, even if said signal appears to just be noise.

[DocM]

I imagine advanced aliens are using quantum entanglement for communications, like what we're experimenting with now. That would be the only way to communicate over such distances.

http://phys.org/news/2015-03-quantum-einstein-spooky-action-distance.html

 

Did Snowden snag any docs on aliens, btw?

 

Quantum entanglement doesn't speed comms because some info has to be sent classically. It's main utility is encryption.

As to intelligentlife and the Drake euation, it isn't the store picture.

Stars like the Sun have a relatively short life supporting lifetime before planets in their habitable zone are cooked by increased radiance. This is long before they blow off their outer layers and become red giants. As such, we have to observe them at the right time; post-industrialization, pre-going to optical, neutrino or other obscure comm methods. 

OTOH, red dwarf stars are incredibly long lived with some that were born long before the sun likely to survive many times its lifetime in a fairly stable state. The planets in their habitable zones could have intelligent life hundreds of millions or billions of years old, not millions as in our case. They probably passed our state of comms development before the dinosaurs, or even earlier.

[123456789A]

Did Snowden snag any docs on aliens, btw?

Only the illegal kind.

[xrobwx71]

what I never got about this whole listening for aliens thing is how are we sure they even ever used RF for communication? maybe they went past that and had something we never came up with first... can't listen for something you never had... sure our first "radio" was what we see as radio, maybe there is a property of physics we haven't found yet, that they started with...

For instance: Are subspace signals RF? Or does it use the subspace theory of warp drive to envelope RF in a subspace warp bubble? Would you need a subspace receiver to "decrypt" the warp bubble?

[Skin]

what I never got about this whole listening for aliens thing is how are we sure they even ever used RF for communication? maybe they went past that and had something we never came up with first... can't listen for something you never had... sure our first "radio" was what we see as radio, maybe there is a property of physics we haven't found yet, that they started with...

It's the same age old story of man's arrogance. We assume that we are the center of everything, and everything, and one, must be measured against us and our standards. Then again, we can only use what we have to search. I personally would turn that money and time inward to search for intelligence on earth.

A better question, would be, even if a signal did travel vast distance and reach us, and we just happened to realize what it was and then translate it possibly, would the civilization that sent it even be there at that location anymore? Would their sun have died or cooled, was it a ship sending something as it fly through space, the list goes on. Also, if we did receive a signal, good luck on us sending something back to them and having it reach them in any short timeframe. Even if the signal originated from our closest neighbor, you try and hold a conversation 3-4 years apart.

 

[JustGeorge]

 

Quantum entanglement doesn't speed comms because some info has to be sent classically. It's main utility is encryption.

Well crap

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Personally, I doubt that we will ever discover life (outside of the solar system).  For two simplistic reasons ... time/distance.  

Time:  The point of time for which we are living is so miniscule compared to the age of the universe.  The miniscule time period gets even more miniscule when compared to when we've been capable of transmitting/receiving information from outside our small neighborhood.  This also goes for other worlds which may have sophisticated life forms with similar/more advanced technologies as us.  The question also arises of when they came about the technology ... was it a million years ago or will it take them another million years?  Are they coming to this technology now which may take millions or billions of years to reach us … yet we will have long passed by then? 

Distance:  Space is just so mind boggling huge...that in reality it’s just about incomprehensible.  Having the timing and distance line up just right to receive confirmation of life, in my opinion, would be like finding one specific grain of sand out of all particulates in the world.

With that said ... I have no doubt that there is not only life but there is also advanced life.  Not saying there are other humans ... but I most certainly believe there are other beings out there who drive to work every day ... do their business and then go home at the end of the day.  These advanced life forms may also be exploring their cosmic neighborhood and also looking up at the night sky wondering if they are alone…may even be wondering that as they peer right in our direction.  There are approximately 100-200 billion planets (low estimate) in just the Milky Way .... while there are at least 200 billion galaxies in the observable universe.  The observable universe alone could contain 1 septillion planets (or 10^24)….which means there are more planets than grains of sand on earth.    

Yea, we are not alone ... but no doubt lonely in the vastness of space.

[remixedcat]

Any legit alien civ is not going to use radio comms. They will use quantum comms and stuff like spooky action at a distance and stuff like that and even stuff we haven't concieved yet. So SETI is just some bored HAM radio operators that are clueless and aimless.

[Unobscured Vision]

^^ At best. And now with this nonsense about Kepler finding evidence of some sort of "Alien Megastructure" around an F-Type star? Bleh. I'm *done* with this stuff.

Science, please -- not hyped-up conjecture. We need fact. Hard evidence. And yes, it will require them to land on the Washington Mall, pop open the hatch and say "Hello!" in front of about 300 people with camera phones for me to believe.

[T3X4S]

Any legit alien civ is not going to use radio comms. They will use quantum comms and stuff like spooky action at a distance and stuff like that and even stuff we haven't concieved yet. So SETI is just some bored HAM radio operators that are clueless and aimless.

Oh ?  You know this how ?  You are basing this on our timescale  - 

Please tell me your astute criteria for what makes a civ "legit"

Quite funny you are knocking a bunch of PhD, post-doc, grad students, scientists, engineers  as clueless and aimless -- 

I know its a pattern with you - but why SETI ?  What do you have against them ?  Normally you just hate on people who are popular, pretty, trendy
 

^^ At best. And now with this nonsense about Kepler finding evidence of some sort of "Alien Megastructure" around an F-Type star? Bleh. I'm *done* with this stuff.

Science, please -- not hyped-up conjecture. We need fact. Hard evidence. And yes, it will require them to land on the Washington Mall, pop open the hatch and say "Hello!" in front of about 300 people with camera phones for me to believe.

 

I am having a very hard time taking your posts about science seriously after the posts about the Sphinx in Giza being 800,000 years old, and you standing behind Thomas Tank and that pathetic website.  Was that a joke ?  Is this a joke ?  Are you like Enron,  Always kidding around ?  

One thing is correct - it will have to be more than primes from Vega, or quasar-like pulses but in the rhythm of beethoven's 5th - it will have to be Times Square, Washington Mall, Central Park, LA, etc



I just hope it happens in my lifetime.

[remixedcat]

 

 

Radio signals have thier limitations!!! Look at 5ghz and the crap you gotta go thru with it! they are fighting with 160mhz and the BW is only 600mbps both ways (wifi is half duplex) so halve that and you got to also divide by 8. and that's just contemplating on possibly scratching the surface. you have to also amplify that immensley, design a dish that would be the size of a house, and maaaayyybbeeeee be able to send data halfway to the moon with repeaters and such... there's NO WAY even FREAKIN NASA! will be able to x-mit data above 802.11 (no a/b/g/n/ac/ax not even!) speeds... the data rates NASA is limited to are more like RTT1X speeds. or something like DIAL UP! Also we can't get cellular transmission to go any firther then a few miles reliably for anything mission critical as well. Why do you think they need so many freakin towers everywhere...  that is the limitations radio based x-mission has!! Any legit civ would have came to the conclusion eons ago!!!

so they go QUANTUM!  or even something else. They may have even evolved to higher dimensions entirely to where they need even less tech and do it all telepathically, who knows. Also they are most likely gonna be encrypted with quantum methods and such.

 

I'd rather see the money donated go towards quantum comms research and stuff like that... rather then people dickin around with radio tech that's on the way out.

 

[Unobscured Vision]

I am having a very hard time taking your posts about science seriously after the posts about the Sphinx in Giza being 800,000 years old, and you standing behind Thomas Tank and that pathetic website.  Was that a joke ?  Is this a joke ?  Are you like Enron,  Always kidding around ?  

One thing is correct - it will have to be more than primes from Vega, or quasar-like pulses but in the rhythm of beethoven's 5th - it will have to be Times Square, Washington Mall, Central Park, LA, etc

I just hope it happens in my lifetime.

Science requires us to have somewhat of an open mind in finding the answer(s) for something, whatever those answers may be. Regarding that 800,000-year-old Sphinx thing, science still applies. If it's that old, science will prove that. If not, that's fine too -- but whether or not, I was urging the application of Science and the Scientific Method. I'm in the position of an "armchair Geologist" on this matter, meaning that I am no more qualified to determine the validity of the claims made than anyone else who has not actually been to the site and done the science themselves. I apologize if you got the idea that I was somehow responsible for all of that. I was attempting to express my own frustration at the lack of any serious and thorough Scientific Investigation at the site in the past.

And thank YOU for so kindly calling me out and otherwise challenging my opinion. What a way to take words and twist them around. Having a bad day?

[T3X4S]

Honestly, I think this might be one of those times where it is hard to inflect tone, and style of talking when in a forum.

My post really was like "hey not sure if you were kidding or not, but here is the impression I got ------"

If you are only concerned in truth, and wont dismiss it until due diligence through the scientific method is done - then I agree 100%.

I did not get that in your post - the way I read it was "Im a scientist - these things are true, I know what Im talking about and so does Thomas the Tank" - which I was put off by.

I mentioned I didnt know what your background was, and didnt want to start a d*&k measuring contest, but I was then surprised when you mentioned that guy in Egypt who was responsible for blocking any real discoveries being made in Giza, and elsewhere.  When I read that I was thinking, "well that sentence sounds like he is sincere and does know what he's talking about, and knows enough to know the politics behind the problems - not just some facts anybody can cough up watching something on the History Channel."

But, I looked at that website and just thought, "OK this is all a joke - these things in here are absolutely ridiculous ("2,000,000,000 year old nuclear generator in Africa showing spontaneous nuclear fusion" and other articles)

Again, I think this is one of those cases where it was lost in translation, or to be more precise, maybe just interpreted incorrectly, not inferred correctly, etc  -    

I know I wasnt having a bad day though - I was still ecstatic from the Star Wars trailer I had just watched !  

 

[T3X4S]

 

 

Radio signals have thier limitations!!! Look at 5ghz and the crap you gotta go thru with it! they are fighting with 160mhz and the BW is only 600mbps both ways (wifi is half duplex) so halve that and you got to also divide by 8. and that's just contemplating on possibly scratching the surface. you have to also amplify that immensley, design a dish that would be the size of a house, and maaaayyybbeeeee be able to send data halfway to the moon with repeaters and such... there's NO WAY even FREAKIN NASA! will be able to x-mit data above 802.11 (no a/b/g/n/ac/ax not even!) speeds... the data rates NASA is limited to are more like RTT1X speeds. or something like DIAL UP! Also we can't get cellular transmission to go any firther then a few miles reliably for anything mission critical as well. Why do you think they need so many freakin towers everywhere...  that is the limitations radio based x-mission has!! Any legit civ would have came to the conclusion eons ago!!!

so they go QUANTUM!  or even something else. They may have even evolved to higher dimensions entirely to where they need even less tech and do it all telepathically, who knows. Also they are most likely gonna be encrypted with quantum methods and such.

 

I'd rather see the money donated go towards quantum comms research and stuff like that... rather then people dickin around with radio tech that's on the way out.

 

remixed, you are assuming a lot.  They (SETI) dont need a ton of bandwidth - they are not trying to play a MMORPG with someone 100 trillion miles away.

The mere fact you say, "most likely going to be encrypted" - what are you basing this on ?  where are you getting your information from ? why do you think encryption would be necessary ?  You think they have to deal with advanced alien hackers ? cmon

Then you mention quantum computers, and quantum encryption.
For us, it appears that will be the next big thing when we can figure it out.  Hopefully in 10-15 years, but we are in its very infancy, we dont understand quantum physics enough to be able to design a viable computer based on the quantum state of a qubit.  But we will, and when we do - it will give us some really cool things, and q-encryption will be unbreakable and make all previous forms of encryption worthless.

But, again, you are assuming they are thinking/acting/doing things the same way as we are.  It is possible - they could be just as far along as we are - or at least were (whenever they pick up our signal interpret, design a reply and send it back over great distances) and would take a very long time if they are along the same timeline dimension as us.  If they have mastered quantum mechanics - then they can just pop right in - no problem

I am just pointing out we have absolutely no idea if or how it will happen, what it will be like, or what they will be like.

I always find it so simple minded that we think of aliens as the greys, the humanoid bipedal ETs of abduction stories, conspiracy theories, and movies and TV - what bothers me about that is when you look at how unbelievably diverse life is on just this planet - there is no telling what it might look like with completely different circumstances.  We assume it will be a carbon-based life form.  Maybe even contain the same base components as us since we started out as stardust - that Carl Sagan guy was really cool.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Any legit alien civ is not going to use radio comms. They will use quantum comms and stuff like spooky action at a distance and stuff like that and even stuff we haven't concieved yet. So SETI is just some bored HAM radio operators that are clueless and aimless.

 

To them we are an Alien Civ,  so we aren't legit?

[remixedcat]

Nope we are prolly laughed at by the aliens on how we are stuck on petty ###### and not focused on advancing tech.

 

[T3X4S]

Neal DeGrasse Tyson said it best


Basically, If they are smart enough to travel here - they are smart enough not to travel here - we are a joke.

[T3X4S]

Nope we are prolly laughed at by the aliens on how we are stuck on petty ###### and not focused on advancing tech.

 

NASA gets its budget cut to scraps, meanwhile the Kardashians will have money placed at their feet to do another show - we deserve to be nuked from orbit for no other reason than that.... no.  to clarify - we deserve to be nuked from orbit for no other reason than Kim Kardashian herself

[Kierax2016]

NASA gets its budget cut to scraps, meanwhile the Kardashians will have money placed at their feet to do another show - we deserve to be nuked from orbit for no other reason than that.... no.  to clarify - we deserve to be nuked from orbit for no other reason than Kim Kardashian herself

So sadly true.