Trump accuses China of 'raping' America

[Stoffel]

2 hours ago, Emn1ty said:

Maybe instead of throwing the source out, you can attack the content. Many news outlets throw a spin on their stories, it's impossible not to have an opinion and a bias. This is why you get information from multiple sources and most importantly on both (or however many) sides of the issue you can.

Don't drink the koolaid and only read news that you agree with.

For once I actually agree with you. That's why i do watch FOX News!

I read news from all sides of the spectrum and i still feel the same about FOX News. Most of their shows are opinion pieces about the news of the day, but they always give a spin to it to fit the GOP narrative.

 

If you really believe O'Reilly when he says the spin stops here, or the slogan fair and balanced then i really don't know what more there is to say

[hagjohn]

7 hours ago, Stoffel said:

If you really believe O'Reilly when he says the spin stops here, or the slogan fair and balanced then i really don't know what more there is to say

This is why Congress never changes. We elect all the same people because, while congress has a 5% approval rating (if it is that good these days), my guy is good. Every elected person in Washington should be replaced. Everyone. Until everyone is replaced, nothing will change. Nothing.

[ctebah]

15 minutes ago, hagjohn said:

This is why Congress never changes. We elect all the same people because, while congress has a 5% approval rating (if it is that good these days), my guy is good. Every elected person in Washington should be replaced. Everyone. Until everyone is replaced, nothing will change. Nothing.

It doesn't matter who you elect or how many people you replace, as long as lobbying is legal the system will stay the same.  Most of the people still don't realize that every politician in the U.S. can be hired by corporations.  At the very root of it it's not republican or democrat decisions but the decisions of powerful corporations.

 

Replacing politicians won't change anything until you replace the entire system.  

[Jazmac]

12 hours ago, Gary7 said:

The time to Blame Geoge Bush for everything is long gone. We actually had a balanced budget for a while under his term. Nafta and Gatt sent all the jobs overseas especially to China.

When I run up my credit card to where I'm only making minimum payments, that is something I did. And just because we celebrate a new year coming in doesn't mean the debt goes away since it happened last year. My over spending the year before carries over to the next year and the year after that. Not so for those on the right. Why it is republicans believe they could transfer the debt and the reason for the debt to the next president is the reason we have trump. I've even heard Giuliani say that 911 did not happen during the bush years. His quote, "bush kept us safe".

[+Gary7 Subscriber²]

11 hours ago, Stoffel said:

Hold on a second! I never said you should stop watching FOX News. I said you should stop using opinion shows to make a point.

 

Yes sorry you said to stop quoting Fox news . Below is what you posted

 

Quote

You need to stop quoting FOX news! I know it has the word "News" in the title but most of their shows are opinion pieces. They are not reporting the news, just their view of the news!

 

The Judge gave factual data but anyway I see this as debate and not an argument.

 

[+Gary7 Subscriber²]

18 minutes ago, Jazmac said:

I've even heard Giuliani say that 911 did not happen during the bush years. His quote, "bush kept us safe"

I have never hear him say anything of the sort.

[hagjohn]

2 hours ago, Jazmac said:

When I run up my credit card to where I'm only making minimum payments, that is something I did. And just because we celebrate a new year coming in doesn't mean the debt goes away since it happened last year. My over spending the year before carries over to the next year and the year after that. Not so for those on the right. Why it is republicans believe they could transfer the debt and the reason for the debt to the next president is the reason we have trump. I've even heard Giuliani say that 911 did not happen during the bush years. His quote, "bush kept us safe".

The lying the christian party does, just astounds me. At some point, you just have to admit that being a christian as all a lie. And yes, dems lie too but they do not claim to be a christian party.

[PGHammer]

11 minutes ago, hagjohn said:

The lying the christian party does, just astounds me. At some point, you just have to admit that being a christian as all a lie. And yes, dems lie too but they do not claim to be a christian party.

Even though they don't, I will not defend lies by Democrats any more than lies by any other political party - and especially when a "true believer" (regardless of the belief system - it doesn't have to be religious) will do it simply on what I regard as one of the "dirtiest" words in ANY language - faith.  (Yes - that's a Heinleinism.)

 

While it's been used as a talking-point in theological debates, it's not just there that it applies - worse, we KNOW better than that! (Look at "Man of La Mancha" - yes, the most famous of the literature series about Don Quixote and Sancho Panza; while originally set on the Spanish/Portguese landmass, it has ALSO been recast throughout Asia in terms of beliefs as diverse as Buddhism and even Falun Gong - the latter by the Beijing State Theater.)  It still boils down to "the ends justify the means" - and I will not defend any argument that justifies itself that way - regardless of WHO makes it.

[Hum]

The USA has 'raped' many countries over the last century.

[PGHammer]

2 minutes ago, Hum said:

The USA has 'raped' many countries over the last century.

So that justifies that the United States be "raped" in retribution?  That literally flies in the face of your own arguments about "retributional justice" and "revenge justice" - and makes you a hypocrite.  At least the religious - and especially the Christians (or the Muslims, for that matter) don't sink THAT far; both belief systems DO have a code allowing for "retributional justice"/"revenge justice", and they don't claim otherwise.

 

[Zidane]

20 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

So that justifies that the United States be "raped" in retribution?  That literally flies in the face of your own arguments about "retributional justice" and "revenge justice" - and makes you a hypocrite.  At least the religious - and especially the Christians (or the Muslims, for that matter) don't sink THAT far; both belief systems DO have a code allowing for "retributional justice"/"revenge justice", and they don't claim otherwise.

 

Religious status or lack there of dictates NOTHING on human behavior. If you feel otherwise, give me your address and I'll send you a generic history book. Do yourself a favor; keep the religion or lack thereof out of intellectual debate.

 

With that out of the way, eye for an eye makes whole world blind fits here...I think Trump could really boost his character here and drop the rhetoric against China and instead focus on fixing our polices that allowed this to begin with. Heck, not just this issue either...stop talking about what x/y country has done and "cut off the head of the snake" if you will by acknowledging what America has done wrong and work on fixing THOSE problems.

[+Gary7 Subscriber²]

1 hour ago, hagjohn said:

The lying the christian party does, just astounds me. At some point, you just have to admit that being a christian as all a lie. And yes, dems lie too but they do not claim to be a christian party.

If being a Christian is all a lie  then being a Jew is all a lie and being a Muslim is all a lie, there seem to be a great deal of liars at each others throats over a lie.

[FloatingFatMan]

34 minutes ago, Gary7 said:

If being a Christian is all a lie  then being a Jew is all a lie and being a Muslim is all a lie, there seem to be a great deal of liars at each others throats over a lie.

Stupid liars, at that.

[PGHammer]

1 hour ago, Zidane said:

Religious status or lack there of dictates NOTHING on human behavior. If you feel otherwise, give me your address and I'll send you a generic history book. Do yourself a favor; keep the religion or lack thereof out of intellectual debate.

 

With that out of the way, eye for an eye makes whole world blind fits here...I think Trump could really boost his character here and drop the rhetoric against China and instead focus on fixing our polices that allowed this to begin with. Heck, not just this issue either...stop talking about what x/y country has done and "cut off the head of the snake" if you will by acknowledging what America has done wrong and work on fixing THOSE problems.

The very reason why we let the "rape" happen (in terms of trade with the People's Republic of China) was to forestall being pillaged by the ravages of war - and I'm not referring to a trade war, but a shooting war.  Any nation that can throw a military the size of our entire population against us and take the pounding (and barely feel it) is a significant threat - yes; the People's Liberation Army is THAT large.  Atop that, there is a significant disconnect between the actual cost of production (of all manufactured goods - regardless of complexity) and the VALUE of those same goods - that is among most - if not ALL - consumers everywhere.  (How many consumers - anywhere - have shown ANY knowledge whatever of the correlation between labor costs and the prices paid for goods and/or services - especially in areas where minimum wages exceed national minimums?)  None of that is unique to the United States.

 

Second, one penalty to having an industrial/manufacturing-driven economy are the "diseases of industry and manufacturing" - everything from lead and asbestos poisoning to diseases growing out of exposure to certain industrial and manufacturing-related chemicals - such as carcinogens.  The wages are higher than in organic farming; however, the risks are significantly higher as well - is it worth the trade-off?  Mitigation of such risk is far from cheap, as any manufacturing OR industrial concern - anywhere - is quite aware of.  One "carrot" that gets dangled to bring manufacturing and industrial operations into developing nations - including the BRIC - is less stringent regulation in this area, in addition to far-cheaper labor.  (None of that is a lie; that is ALL a matter of public record, and has been going on longer than Donald Trump's father has been alive.)  That's not unique to the United States, either - in fact, that started in Europe, when the United States was not even a teenager.  (In short, before the War of 1812.)  Environmentalism - everywhere - came out of the reaction TO the penalties of a manufacturing/industrial economy - the "diseases of industry" are admittedly quite ghastly.  (Look at the penalties paid by Mister Bumble in "Oliver Twist", for example - he was an undertaker by occupation.  Diseases and occupational-health hazards faced merely by undertakers are MILD compared to manufacturing - however, they aren't non-existent.)

 

Admitting where the United States has messed up isn't enough - and won't be - ever; however, the same applies to any nation that has messed up, as there is blame enough for the planet entire - worse, some of it is quite deliberately ducked.  Typically the price for admitting that your nation - or you yourself - messed up in political terms is not worth it to the person at fault; that is why coverups happen.  (The data there is voluminous and a matter of historical record.)  I've never - as in ever - said that the hands of the United States are clean; instead, I have stated that NOBODY has clean hands - and have been hammered for that statement, despite that it is quite easily provable merely from public record.  How can we move forward when the belief that only one nation is "guilty" persists - even when that very belief is provably false?

 

It will take a multi-faceted approach to tackle this rather ginormous problem - however, solving it WOULD be worth a Nobel Peace Prize, as it could stop all conflict globally - and possibly for all time.  However, it must be understood that it IS multi-faceted, and will take more than one nation; I doubt that even the UN and its various NGOs would be enough to solve it.

[Zidane]

21 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

The very reason why we let the "rape" happen (in terms of trade with the People's Republic of China) was to forestall being pillaged by the ravages of war - and I'm not referring to a trade war, but a shooting war.  Any nation that can throw a military the size of our entire population against us and take the pounding (and barely feel it) is a significant threat - yes; the People's Liberation Army is THAT large.  Atop that, there is a significant disconnect between the actual cost of production (of all manufactured goods - regardless of complexity) and the VALUE of those same goods - that is among most - if not ALL - consumers everywhere.  (How many consumers - anywhere - have shown ANY knowledge whatever of the correlation between labor costs and the prices paid for goods and/or services - especially in areas where minimum wages exceed national minimums?)  None of that is unique to the United States.

 

Second, one penalty to having an industrial/manufacturing-driven economy are the "diseases of industry and manufacturing" - everything from lead and asbestos poisoning to diseases growing out of exposure to certain industrial and manufacturing-related chemicals - such as carcinogens.  The wages are higher than in organic farming; however, the risks are significantly higher as well - is it worth the trade-off?  Mitigation of such risk is far from cheap, as any manufacturing OR industrial concern - anywhere - is quite aware of.  One "carrot" that gets dangled to bring manufacturing and industrial operations into developing nations - including the BRIC - is less stringent regulation in this area, in addition to far-cheaper labor.  (None of that is a lie; that is ALL a matter of public record, and has been going on longer than Donald Trump's father has been alive.)  That's not unique to the United States, either - in fact, that started in Europe, when the United States was not even a teenager.  (In short, before the War of 1812.)  Environmentalism - everywhere - came out of the reaction TO the penalties of a manufacturing/industrial economy - the "diseases of industry" are admittedly quite ghastly.  (Look at the penalties paid by Mister Bumble in "Oliver Twist", for example - he was an undertaker by occupation.  Diseases and occupational-health hazards faced merely by undertakers are MILD compared to manufacturing - however, they aren't non-existent.)

 

Admitting where the United States has messed up isn't enough - and won't be - ever; however, the same applies to any nation that has messed up, as there is blame enough for the planet entire - worse, some of it is quite deliberately ducked.  Typically the price for admitting that your nation - or you yourself - messed up in political terms is not worth it to the person at fault; that is why coverups happen.  (The data there is voluminous and a matter of historical record.)  I've never - as in ever - said that the hands of the United States are clean; instead, I have stated that NOBODY has clean hands - and have been hammered for that statement, despite that it is quite easily provable merely from public record.  How can we move forward when the belief that only one nation is "guilty" persists - even when that very belief is provably false?

 

It will take a multi-faceted approach to tackle this rather ginormous problem - however, solving it WOULD be worth a Nobel Peace Prize, as it could stop all conflict globally - and possibly for all time.  However, it must be understood that it IS multi-faceted, and will take more than one nation; I doubt that even the UN and its various NGOs would be enough to solve it.

Well the United States can't speak for the People's Republic of China or vice versa...but my point is still valid: you accomplish little more than drawing a crowd of people ignorant of the reality at hand when you point the finger and ignore your contribution to the problem. Frankly I'm tired of this primary feeding on humanity's innate flaw of blaming one another instead of reflecting on one self. Sure we all know about the economic ramifications stemming from other countries but what have we tried to do locally to address this issue? How can Mr. Trump holler about China when the very same problems are at home? Fix your house first and then worry about another. Just my two cents...

[PGHammer]

14 hours ago, Zidane said:

Well the United States can't speak for the People's Republic of China or vice versa...but my point is still valid: you accomplish little more than drawing a crowd of people ignorant of the reality at hand when you point the finger and ignore your contribution to the problem. Frankly I'm tired of this primary feeding on humanity's innate flaw of blaming one another instead of reflecting on one self. Sure we all know about the economic ramifications stemming from other countries but what have we tried to do locally to address this issue? How can Mr. Trump holler about China when the very same problems are at home? Fix your house first and then worry about another. Just my two cents...

Zidane - you think I'm not?

 

That is why I've gone to the trouble of pointing out that - despite arguments otherwise - nobody has clean hands - and I've backed up the claim with hard data.  The finger-pointing blame-game IS BS - and is Pharonic behavior.

 

Part of the issue is that there ARE many reasons for exporting hazardous occupations; however, there are penalties for doing so.  A rather obvious one is, in fact, that whacking in the wallet when high-wage jobs - if not industries - get exported; didn't Margaret Thatcher get whacked when the coal mines in the UK were closing en masse due to increased environmental regulation?  It happened the previous decade in Germany, and is happening in the US today.  I've stated categorically that occupational hazards in certain types of industries and manufacturing ARE ghastly - that's not in dispute.  However, the question STILL remains - is it government's duty to act as nanny?  There are folks that choose to take those risks - given that, is government actually required to act in loco parentis for adults and say that you are not allowed to take that risk, even with your eyes wide open?  How far do the rights - let alone the responsibilities - of government (and especially representative government) go?  The decision of a government to basically outlaw an entire manufacturing or industrial sector based on risk-assessment should NOT be made in the dead of night; however, it often IS made in the dead of night - and by the bureaucracy  -not the legislature.  Worse, the "why" it's thrown to the bureaucracy is because the legislature wants no part of that hot potato.  It's their job - AND their place; however, they are scared you-know-whatless of the political consequences.  (The same can be said of any hot-button political issue.)  It's less risky for legislators to toss the potato to the bureaucrats.

 

While in democracies and republics, you are not at risk of getting shot (in a literal sense) for political failure, in an autocracy (such as the PRC), you are certainly at risk of becoming LITERAL dead meat as the penalty for political failure - worse, your family will get dunned for the cost of the bullets that ended you.  (All too often, becoming "figurative dead meat" is as bad as ending up literally dead - to a politician.  Very shallow thinking; however, there it is.)

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, Zidane - if anything, we are in agreement.  However, I'm trying NOT to frame the argument in nation-state terms, simply to avoid letting emotion get involved - nationalism tends to get in the way of logical - let alone critical - thinking.

[The Rev]

On 5/8/2016 at 7:43 PM, Dot Matrix said:

Correction: Anyone but himself happy. Trump has never set out to do anything for others.

True.