Why can't Microsoft do incremental updates?

[Defcon]

Whenever there's a new insider build, the process is basically a full reinstall + migration of settings/apps/registry. It takes 1-2hrs for me and at the end you are left with cruft like windows.old, size increases in WinSxs, driver cache etc, and about 15GB in old windows install left around, the only way to reclaim that which most people won't do is to run DriveCleanup with advanced option.

 

There should be a better way to do this, using inplace upgrades. The whole point of WinSxs and file versioning is to keep old versions around and make rollback possible, so why does a new build do a full reinstall? e.g. Linux can do this.

[zhangm Supervisor]

I've been on Insider for a while, so I only recall that updates for releases are cumulative updates, rather than installations/upgrades.

 

Since Insider is a source of testing and feedback, I imagine that they push out entire builds to determine whether anything has become broken in the upgrade process. This is something that otherwise wouldn't get much exposure, since most users don't go through the upgrade process frequently during daily use. That said, so far, upgrades have all gone smoothly for me, so I've not had any comments to give about how the upgrade process gracefully (or otherwise) handles failure conditions.

[+devHead Subscriber²]

I believe it's for the following reason:

 

Those who participate in the Windows Insider Preview program are not getting 'upgrades' to their operating system.  They are testing beta versions of unique builds of Windows 10.  For this testing to be done effectively, each new build of the operating system must be installed anew on the users machine.  This is not the same as a user who has a publicly released version of the stable OS, and receives updates through the normal channel, i.e., Windows Updates.  I'm just glad that with each new build, I don't have to reinstall all my apps.  Now that would take a lot of time!

 

Everyone who is beta testing Windows 10 knows this and is okay dealing with this slight inconvenience (especially time-wise) so they can provide valuable feedback on each new build of the operating system.  Using Drive Cleanup after you have confirmed that the latest build is running stable and not causing any issues is a pretty quick process, only a few minutes.  

[shockz]

I find it quite annoying that after the rtm version is released of both 1511 and rs1, it basically performs an in-place upgrade. Why can't we go back to service pack like deployments?

 

Going from 10 RTM to 1511 RTM required an in-place upgrade and the same will be required from 1511 RTM to RTM of August Update.

 

This might work fine in general use scenarios, but if a system with whole disk encryption performs an in-place upgrade, it'll fail as the installer is locked out after reboot. It requires loops and hoops to perform correctly. We have to customize an ISO and inject encryption drivers into it, as well as perform an "autoboot" that bypasses authentication 3 times to account for reboots. It's a headache scenario for enterprise users. It "creeps out" the business and they are hesitant to perform an enterprise-wide deployment of 10 because of it, with m.2 and uefi though, it's finally going to happen... Windows 7 just isn't cutting it anymore... Dell systems with Skylake and UEFI require a workaround for 7 to work properly and it's not a favored method in our environment. LTSB is simply not an option for us.

Edited July 12, 2016 by shockz

[George P Global Moderator]

I could be wrong but I think they're going to make it just bigger service pack type updates at some point, for now it's full OS upgrades though, but RS1 might be the final time we get this.  They know people don't want to do full OS installs, I think it's just a case of the system and not enough testing being done yet.   It wouldn't surprise me if something like RS2, next year, is more of a service pack type update and not a full OS install.

 

As far as insider builds though, I don't think they'll change the way those are pushed out, it allows you to d/l or make a ISO of the build and then do fresh installs for better testing, something you can't do if it's just a service pack type process.   We'll just have to wait and see what the future brings, I'm starting to hear talk of RS3 and even a RS4.

[PGHammer]

Incremental updates still go on outside the Insider Program - Neowin has even been reporting on them.  The difference is those same incremental updates came from builds we've already smoked through via the Insider program.  (In fact, take a look at the last three incremental updates and compare them to either the Anniversary Update (Redstone One - which we are headed toward now) or any updates prior to the announcement of the Anniversary Update.  I certainly don't doubt that there will be further "incremental updates" during Redstone Two (which is right after the Anniversary Update gets out the door); as has been the case with Redstone One and THreshold pior ot that, those same incremental updates were tested by us as Insiders (and as part of Insider builds) before being foisted onto Windows 10 at large - how big an incremental update IS depends on what is included in it.  (Mom's AIO - and her desktop that it replaced - were NOT included in the Insider Program on purpose; in fact, the AIO came to Windows 10 with Threshold from 8.1 - because I couldn't crossgrade from Core or Home to Pro - I'm HOPING to be able to with the Anniversary Update RTW - though I'd be surprised if that option exists.

[PGHammer]

15 hours ago, shockz said:

I find it quite annoying that after the rtm version is released of both 1511 and rs1, it basically performs an in-place upgrade. Why can't we go back to service pack like deployments?

 

Going from 10 RTM to 1511 RTM required an in-place upgrade and the same will be required from 1511 RTM to RTM of August Update.

 

This might work fine in general use scenarios, but if a system with whole disk encryption performs an in-place upgrade, it'll fail as the installer is locked out after reboot. It requires loops and hoops to perform correctly. We have to customize an ISO and inject encryption drivers into it, as well as perform an "autoboot" that bypasses authentication 3 times to account for reboots. It's a headache scenario for enterprise users. It "creeps out" the business and they are hesitant to perform an enterprise-wide deployment of 10 because of it, with m.2 and uefi though, it's finally going to happen... Windows 7 just isn't cutting it anymore... Dell systems with Skylake and UEFI require a workaround for 7 to work properly and it's not a favored method in our environment. LTSB is simply not an option for us.

It could be just as temperamental with a crossgrade (from Core or Home to Pro or Enterprise) which has, in fact, been a no-no either during Threshold, during Anniversary Update, or even with Threshold RTW (which didn't offer that option either).

Though a lot of us (especially Insiders) would love to see that option, there is doubtless a reason why it's not there - even in terms of a unique-to-Insiders RTW release.

 

I can see why M.2 would be a major driver (thanks to M.2, it doesn't matter HOW big the image is, as long as it's bootable, an M.2-based deployable image can be deployed) - same applies to USB for single-user-deployments (for example, I can use RUFUS to create USB images for either sort of deployment - or even a hybrid image if I have no idea whether the target support USB or not - my two in-house notebooks are split; however, the LAST notebook I deployed Windows 10 on is BIOS-based and goes back to - egad - XP; it's also the oldest hardware in the testing pool).

 

As to why there's an ex-XP notebook in the testing pool, it has everything to do with a feature in Threshold (and thus Windows 10 going forward) - Windows Hello AKA biometric support; this feature first appeared in enterprise portables (especially notebooks).  Intel called it Centrino (and later vPro) and AMD had their equivalent designed around mobile Turion - both released simultaneously with Windows XP Service Pack 2 (the Security Service Pack).  These ex-enterprise notebooks are being repurposed, and primarily for public-school students; due to the biometrics, they SHOULD also be easier to lock down - as long as their is support in the OS for the biometrics - Windows 10 provides that.  I like the idea of preventing any more security ignoramuses - the IG IC report on the State Department was damning - and not just of Hillary.

[PGHammer]

16 hours ago, devHead said:

I believe it's for the following reason:

 

Those who participate in the Windows Insider Preview program are not getting 'upgrades' to their operating system.  They are testing beta versions of unique builds of Windows 10.  For this testing to be done effectively, each new build of the operating system must be installed anew on the users machine.  This is not the same as a user who has a publicly released version of the stable OS, and receives updates through the normal channel, i.e., Windows Updates.  I'm just glad that with each new build, I don't have to reinstall all my apps.  Now that would take a lot of time!

 

Everyone who is beta testing Windows 10 knows this and is okay dealing with this slight inconvenience (especially time-wise) so they can provide valuable feedback on each new build of the operating system.  Using Drive Cleanup after you have confirmed that the latest build is running stable and not causing any issues is a pretty quick process, only a few minutes.  

All true - which is my Mom's AIO - and the desktop that it replaced - are not - and won't be - part of the Insider program; that PC is deliberately opted-out.  (It's my REASON to be the household guinea pig - I've been that since the first Windows 95 beta; so nobody else in the family has to be.)  It's also why my desktop and both notebooks ARE Insider PCs - the three PCs are different from each other enough that different testing scenarios apply to all three; Big Pavilion - the oldest notebook - is content-consumption; Baby Pavilion is the original mobile developer's notebook (Hyper-V and the Android SDK/VS Community tag-team), and my desktop (all the above plus casual/mainstream gaming).