Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg

[OrangeSoul]

CORTE MADERA, Calif. - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret ? a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.

Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb ? all for about a quarter.

He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg.

They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling.

And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too.

So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them.

"They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy."

The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.

"The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference."

Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power.

Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price.

But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids ? and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones.

Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message.

Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent hawks like former CIA director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign oil dependence.

Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism.

"The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said.

DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would be available.

Others are modifying hybrids, too.

Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said.

University of California, Davis engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban.

Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag.

Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations.

"They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/ap_on_...ybrid_tinkerers

[Viserov]

That sounds great.

[Bawx]

Wow.

[gdodson]

I hope these are released soon, gas is too expensive.

[lav-chan]

They should like set up taxing brackets for car companies that don't make their cars above a certain efficiency. Like if the car gets 40 mpg, they don't pay a tax, but if it gets 30 they have to pay $x, and if it's 20 they have to pay $x+1, and if it's 10 they have to pay $x+2. Or whatever.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

This doesn't directly affect Personal Computers so I'll move it...

[Thread Moved from BPN to NFN]

[Fuzzbling]

This is great and all, but why don't they just make a car that does not use gas at all. These have been around for years, and the technology has progressed so much sence they first appeared.

Gas the liquid gold - it's all shiny, usefull and great on the surface, but when it comes down to it, it's causes people to be greedy, corruption, and has been a reason to wage war.

[OrangeSoul]

This is great and all, but why don't they just make a car that does not use gas at all. These have been around for years, and the technology has progressed so much sence they first appeared.

Gas the liquid gold - it's all shiny, usefull and great on the surface, but when it comes down to it, it's causes people to be greedy, corruption, and has been a reason to wage war.

586372485[/snapback]

its called transition Gas -> Gas/Electric -> Electric

[lav-chan]

This is great and all, but why don't they just make a car that does not use gas at all. These have been around for years, and the technology has progressed so much sence they first appeared.

586372485[/snapback]

Because the cars end up being insanely expensive, and the means to refuel the cars (i.e., 'charging stations') end up being insanely expensive as well.

Furthermore, although a fully electric car might be able to get infinity miles to the gallon, it's not going to actually go very far. Not with the technology we have right now.

[Dark_INk]

the little known secret, suv hybrids :D

http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/home/

EPA estimated mpg:

FWD 36 City / 31 Hwy

[qkslvr221]

As much as I wish they'd produce these, too many companies are just greedier than the devil himself to do so.

[strekship]

If they would make cars that run off of ethonol (sp?), then we could end our reliance on the middel east and help out our own farmers who grow corn. Too bad the government is run by the oil companys.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

If they would make cars that run off of ethonol (sp?), then we could end our reliance on the middel east and help out our own farmers who grow corn. Too bad the government is run by the oil companys.

586373300[/snapback]

It takes oil to make ethanol (the corn/soy needs to be processed). It is not a very efficient solution.

Ethanol is done for appearances. it doesn't really help.

[undeRliRcs]

I figure this belonged here since the article does connect to some environmental/political issues. If not, then mods please feel free to move it.

I wonder if my friend is interested in modifying his car. :D

Engineers modify hybrid cars to get up to 250 mpg

By TIM MOLLOY, Associated Press Writer

Saturday, August 13, 2005

(08-13) 09:13 PDT Corte Madera, Calif. (AP) --

Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away.

Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret ? a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.

Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb ? all for about a quarter.

He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg.

They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign-policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling.

And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too.

So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them.

"They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy."

Full article here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../n091301D38.DTL

[LK.]

Ahh this is good

My dad has really been considering gas conversions for a while

?1500 cheapest I've seen, but I think only heavy drivers will benefit, my dad hardly drives much, hybrids run on petrol too, two's better than one :DD

[John S. Veteran]

These hybrids are neither appealing, nor attractively priced yet to really be popular. Doesn't matter if it gets 500 mpg, if you pay a premium up front to get the car, you're not saving anything.

Let's just say I'm in the market for a 4-door Toyota.

I choose the Corolla with a base price of $14k, the Prius starts at $21k +$3k for the mods you mention. I save $10K right off the bat. That $10K will get 4000 gallons of gas @ $2.50 a gallon.

That's 3.5+ years of fillups basing on my current driving habits of approximately 270 miles every 2 weeks. Plus I don't have to fool with the batteries or drive something as silly looking as a Prius.

By the time I pay out as much as I would have for the Prius, my savings will have paid for my use of the Corolla and I'll be ready for something else.

[L3thal Veteran]

Ethanol is not the solution, but nonetheless, Toyota announced that it is planning to have 1/4 of their cars to be hybrids by 2010. They are expecting to sell over 250,000 after the beginning of the next decade, way above today's 35,000 or so they have sold.

[root]

I can't wait, the gas prices really take the fun out of driving. $2.50 in gas for 250 miles would be wonderful.

Oh yea, SUV's suck.

[lav-chan]

Obviously if you can afford a Prius, you're not buying it just because you're really strapped for gasoline money.

[John S. Veteran]

Obviously if you can afford a Prius, you're not buying it just because you're really strapped for gasoline money.

586374827[/snapback]

Being able to afford it is irrelevant. What I illustrated (and the article stated as much) was that hybrids are not yet cost-effective to own. Let alone saving you anything.

[Hupp]

if hybrids were cheaper i'd own one in a heartbeat

[Fred Derf Veteran]

The Prius is larger than a Corolla yet a bit smaller than the Camry. It is, however, fairly luxurious compared to the Corolla so it isn't exactly a fair comparison.

IMO, Prius -- Camry is a closer comparison even though the Prius is not quite as spacious (well, the Prius does have more headroom than the Camry).

I figure this belonged here since the article does connect to some environmental/political issues.  If not, then mods please feel free to move it.

I will merge it with the existing thread in NFN. Yes, if this becomes a polarized debate, it will end up in RWI. For now, however...

[Thread Moved from RWI to NFN]

[Threads Merged]

[spIdeZ]

How can they say it gets 250 mpg when in reality all they mean is that you have to keep recharging your car :huh:

[John S. Veteran]

How can they say it gets 250 mpg when in reality all they mean is that you have to keep recharging your car  :huh:

586376666[/snapback]

recharging it with electricity made by burning fossil fuels... :laugh: well it makes them feel good about themselves

[oneoldman]

CO2 wise- how much fuel is used up to produce the power in those batteries? Currently gassoline is alot more efficient (both cost and by usage of real carbon based fuel) than anything you can put together in your garage.