cchasem Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 A friend of mine wrote this because she has a theory that 'jesus is the devil'.. I'm not very educated in religion & the bible, so could you guys help me with a counter argument? or just tell me what you think about what she said.. thanks. ..it might be a bit offensive to some. I have this theory that Jesus Christ is really the devil. Its such an awesome theory, seriously. I dont know if I can justly explain it just through typing cause its the topic of a long and serious discussion and thats hard to do online. But i'll try to explain my genius theory anyway. First of all let me just start by saying that I dont nessescarily believe in the bible or any organized religion, but if the bible was a true story then I feel my take on it is the right one. Thanks. Before you read this, if youre a christian youre gunna get offended so know this now, and dont read this if you arent going to be open minded, you ****s. Ok so the bible is split into 2 books. The old and new testament. The old testament is the book the of the bible that the Jews follow, and the new testament is the book that christians follow. Even though both of these books are called the bible, theyre completely different stories and somewhat hypocritical. The old testament is the word of God and blah blah, and it talks about how the angel lucifer rebelled against god because he said that god wasnt anything and he could get people to follow and believe in him just as easily as they would believe in god and he could turn them against him. Well god "casts him down" from heaven. So here we go, devil is out of heaven, on his own, to prove himself to god. So just saying, if youre the devil, and you want to go to earth to get people to follow you what would be the best way to decieve people? Say you're the son of god. He goes to the jews which god says are his chosen people and tries to get the jews to follow him and believe in him. So the bible is now split up into two parts ...the word of god and the word of jesus and his followers or w/e. Well in the new testament it even says that Jesus told people they didnt have to believe in the lord as long as they believed in his only son. Anyway heres the kicker. What did jesus do for "us" that was so important. He died for our sins. Hmm wow sorry if I'm the only one who can see through this bull****. Jesus dies for us so that we can sin and if we ask him for forgiveness we'll have eternal life. Its like hes saying, hey world, its ok to sin, cause im going to die for you, IM THE SON OF GOD, so sin on just believe in me and ask for my forgiveness and you're in! Seriously. Hes the devil. The ****ing devil. Anyway this is easier to explain because as soon as someone comes back with a counter arguement i always can answer quickly and put them in their place. If anyone can tell me LOGICALLY that im wrong, I'll give you $3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallithrax Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 If you don't know how to counter it, don't bother. What if the argument goes a little deeper? You then have to come back here and ask for new input to counter the new argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastage Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Now you see you can tell her something very simple the devil as most people know the term is an invention of christianity, Jesus was Joshua and he was an hebrew from Nazareth the hebrews don't believe in the devil, jewish people don't believe in the devil....thus Jesus can't be the devil as the devil doesnt exist. And again there is no devil in the bible (old bible) at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n3wt Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Tell you're friend that she is mistaken if she believes the old testament is the torah, they are not the same. One is a christian document, and one is hebrew, and while they are very similar, there is no concept of heaven, hell or the devil in judaeism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Golden Deal Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Well, there is a "devil," but he's more of God's Quality Assurance guy than His archnemesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raekwon Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 (edited) I'm not very educated in religion & the bible 586768262[/snapback] Neither is your friend, quite obviously. Her arguments only make the slightest bit of sense if the Bible were only what she attempted to reduce it to in her silly two-paragraph theory. Unfortunately for her, it's not. Seriously, this is her argument . . . 1) The Devil was cast out of Heaven. (true) 2) The Devil deceives people. (true) 3) Jesus claimed to be God's son. (true) 4) Jesus claimed that he was there to die for the sins of those who'd believe. (true) 5) By doing that, he's saying that it's okay for believers to sin. (false . . . she needs to try actually reading a Bible rather than making assumptions) 6) ??? 7) Jesus is the Devil. WHAT?! She is operating under the assumption that the Bible is at least partially true, or else she wouldn't be able to formulate her theory based on some things that the Bible says. (So any argument stating that the Bible is "a bunch of made-up stories" or other such truck would logically destroy her argument anyway.) Seriously, #5 is where her theory completely falls off of its already rusty hinges. Not only do the Apostles letters after the Gospels explicitly state time and again that God's forgiveness isn't a license to sin (for instance, Romans 6), but Jesus himself railed against such ideas . . . for instance, when he forgave the woman caught in the act of adultery, he didn't say "ok, you're forgiven. Go ahead and continue being a ######." He said "go and sin no more". Under the slightest bit of scrutiny and actual knowledge of what the Bible says, your friend's "awesome theory" holds no water. Edited November 7, 2005 by raekwon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raekwon Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Tell you're friend that she is mistaken if she believes the old testament is the torah, they are not the same. One is a christian document, and one is hebrew, and while they are very similar, there is no concept of heaven, hell or the devil in judaeism. 586768315[/snapback] What of the book of Job, then (or the myriad of other references to heaven, hell, and Satan in the OT)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Golden Deal Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Once again, OT != Torah. Job is a Christian story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raekwon Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Once again, OT != Torah. Job is a Christian story. 586779835[/snapback] OT != Torah, but OT = Torah (law) + Neviim (prophets) + Ketuvim (writings) = Tanakh = the whole of Jewish scripture, yes? The story of Job was around long before Jesus, so I don't know where the "Job is a Christian story" assertion comes from. The only way that'd work would be to say that both the Old and New Testaments are Christian (which I'd technically agree with, but I have a feeling that you wouldn't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lardiop Veteran Posted November 7, 2005 Veteran Share Posted November 7, 2005 Seriously, #5 is where her theory completely falls off of its already rusty hinges. Not only do the Apostles letters after the Gospels explicitly state time and again that God's forgiveness isn't a license to sin (for instance, Romans 6), but Jesus himself railed against such ideas . . . for instance, when he forgave the woman caught in the act of adultery, he didn't say "ok, you're forgiven. Go ahead and continue being a ######." He said "go and sin no more".Under the slightest bit of scrutiny and actual knowledge of what the Bible says, your friend's "awesome theory" holds no water. 586779702[/snapback] Not to mention the fact that he has zero evidence to back anything of it up. The devil is mentioned by name several times in the Old Testament (which Christians value very highly and Christ came to fullfil not abolish), take this explination: "Scripture and tradition both teach that the fall of Lucifer originated in a will to ascend above the entire hosts of heaven: ?How are thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are thou cut down to the ground!?For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:?I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most high.? (Isiah 14, 12-14). The root of all sin is pride, which involves choosing one?s own will over and against the divine will. To give oneself over to sin is to make one?s own will a law unto itself and to subordinate everything else, including divine law, to that will. One makes oneself one?s own god. This is the egotism that is at the heart of all sin."sin." Not only that but your friend seems to misunderstand the nature of why Hell exists in the first place. The fact that 'God is Love' and that the love he has for us is freely given, implies that the love he shares can be free"Hell is one of the greatest signs of God's love for us. For He loves us so much that He will allow us to reject Him for all eternity. You see, most of you, if not all of you, are going to fall in love with somebody some day--if you haven't already. And some of you are going to experience rejection. One day it may happen that you discover that the person you love couldn't care less if you disappeared from the face of the earth tomorrow. If you truly love that person, you will not force him or her to love you. None of us would be happy with someone who is forced to love us. For love isn't love unless it is freely given. If you truly love that person, you will let her go. You will respect her freedom and allow her to govern her life as she sees fit. For this is what love demands. Now God is Love. He does not merely have love. Rather, He is His own Infinite Love. And love isn't truly love unless it is freely given. God freely pours out His love upon us. Everything we have is pure gift. It is up to us to freely love Him back. But He will not force us to love Him. For that would be contrary to His nature. It would also entail a meaningless relationship. And so the existence of Hell is demanded by the very nature of God Himself as Love."ove." As for "Hmm wow sorry if I'm the only one who can see through this bull****. Jesus dies for us so that we can sin and if we ask him for forgiveness we'll have eternal life." Anyone with a shred of intelligence can demistify that very easily. Jesus did not die so that we can sin again, he died so that if we screw up and honestly repent for the things we have done, we have a means of achieving an unheard of grace from God. For literally when we sin, we reject that heavenly love that is so freely given to us. Like I pointed out above, the existance of hell is a great gift. You get exactly what you want just like the Devil did. More on the existance of Hell and Satan: http://fmmh.ycdsb.ca/teachers/fmmh_mcmanaman/pages/hell.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Golden Deal Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 If the Old Testament is the whole of Jewish scripture, why aren't Christians supposed to follow the kosher laws? Oh, and since there is no Satan in Judaism, how could Satan make a bet with God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lardiop Veteran Posted November 7, 2005 Veteran Share Posted November 7, 2005 If the Old Testament is the whole of Jewish scripture, why aren't Christians supposed to follow the kosher laws? Oh, and since there is no Satan in Judaism, how could Satan make a bet with God? 586779931[/snapback] Because Christ was the complete fullfilment of those books. Remember what was written (especially in John's Gospel) on numerous occasions, even just before he died on the cross: "but that the scripture might be fulfilled". They preannounced Jesus and all the works that he was to perform. Without them the whole New Testament makes no sense. And afaik the Jewish faith rejects the notion of Satan being a 'fallen angel' because they dont think it is possible for someone that close to God to be rebellious. They see him as an angel with a purpose destined by God. But this all comes back to the notion of free will and sin as I explained above. Even one of the twelve that Jesus chose to be his close desciples ended up betraying him. (There is a connection between temptation, Judas and the devil here as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raekwon Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 If the Old Testament is the whole of Jewish scripture, why aren't Christians supposed to follow the kosher laws? Oh, and since there is no Satan in Judaism, how could Satan make a bet with God? 586779931[/snapback] The thread is being de-railed, so I'm going to bow out of this line of the conversation right here. If, however, you could explain to me why you say that there's no Satan in Judaism, please PM me. As he's mentioned plenty in the Tanakh, I don't understand why you make that assertion. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Golden Deal Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Well, there is a 'Satan', but not in the sense that Christians mean it. There is no rebellious former angel who's out to corrupt all of our souls (thus sending us to Hell) and square off with God in a cataclysmic battle (only on Pay Per View!). There is no concept of Hell in Judaism, so there isn't really any sense of a Christian Satan. The Jewish Satan (or Shaitan) is working for God to test things, not against Him to ruin them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lardiop Veteran Posted November 7, 2005 Veteran Share Posted November 7, 2005 Well, there is a 'Satan', but not in the sense that Christians mean it. There is no rebellious former angel who's out to corrupt all of our souls (thus sending us to Hell) and square off with God in a cataclysmic battle (only on Pay Per View!). There is no concept of Hell in Judaism, so there isn't really any sense of a Christian Satan. The Jewish Satan (or Shaitan) is working for God to test things, not against Him to ruin them. 586780024[/snapback] The most common misconception about Satan in the Christian sense is that he is in direct battle or conflict with God. The victory over death and sin has already been won and Satan knows that. All we have to do is accept the love that God showers on us through his Church, Sacraments etc. But we still have a choice, a choice which is Satan's last resort. There was never a cosmic "Pay Per View" battle, actually there was never even a war. He wanted to follow his own will and God let him. Now he looks to bring us with him, trying to justify a cause that never was. Still extremely tempting though isnt it. The best way to describe Hell in the Christan sense is a complete vacuum of "Loveless-ness" or the absence of the presence of God. We choose it, it is not forced upon us. If you honestly reject God and the love he has for the world, he will love you enough to give you exactly what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Golden Deal Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 There will be a massive battle though, at least according to Revelations. And Hell is supposed to be a massive inferno/lake of fire, etc. at least according to some parts of the Bible. I reject the Christian's God because I don't believe that might makes right. Simply because God is more powerful than I am does not give Him the right to decide my fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Ok...Old Testament was law. You were saved by the law. The New Testament began the grace. Jesus died so that we could be saved by grace, and not of works (the Law). They are not two different theories, but a chronological order of how everything has fit together. i could go into great detail, and if you want, I can. But Raekwon and lardiop are pretty much right on. Just because Christ died, does not mean we have the right or freedom to sin. To truly believe, you have to have a conversion...that being, a change of heart...you don't want to sin. Does that mean you won't? Of course not. Because of that, is where anti-Christians love to feed. As was mentioned in a song I heard... The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle.? That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toastyone Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 God is more powerful than I am does not give Him the right to decide my fate. 586780181[/snapback] Why does He not have that right? He created you... God could go off and do whatever He wanted to for one reason He is God :laugh: But He doesn't decide your fate, he gives you a choice. If you want to go off and not live the way He says you should in the Bible that's fine you just might end up not where you want to in the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Golden Deal Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Do your parents have the right to torture you because you chose not to go to college? Having a choice of "do what i want, or don't do what I want but suffer forever" isn't really giving someone a legitimate choice, it's made under extreme duress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.nudd Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Do your parents have the right to torture you because you chose not to go to college? Having a choice of "do what i want, or don't do what I want but suffer forever" isn't really giving someone a legitimate choice, it's made under extreme duress. 586780442[/snapback] Sad thing is too many people take the wrong choice there even though the right one is the simple one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbo Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 i wonder why the person even mentions the Old Testament being Jewish... what relevance does that have to the rest of her (thesis?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n3wt Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 i wonder why the person even mentions the Old Testament being Jewish... what relevance does that have to the rest of her (thesis?) She is basically saying that Jesus is in fact the jewish devil come to destroy us all, the problem is that there are differences between Jewish and Christian scripture that preculde her hypothesis right from the get go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lardiop Veteran Posted November 8, 2005 Veteran Share Posted November 8, 2005 Ok...Old Testament was law. You were saved by the law. The New Testament began the grace. Jesus died so that we could be saved by grace, and not of works (the Law). They are not two different theories, but a chronological order of how everything has fit together.i could go into great detail, and if you want, I can. But Raekwon and lardiop are pretty much right on. Just because Christ died, does not mean we have the right or freedom to sin. To truly believe, you have to have a conversion...that being, a change of heart...you don't want to sin. Does that mean you won't? Of course not. Because of that, is where anti-Christians love to feed. As was mentioned in a song I heard... 586780180[/snapback] Great stuff Boog. (Y) Faith without actions, or the living out of that faith, is useless and very detrimental to the rest of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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