Taiwanese Developers Favor HD-DVD in Xbox 360

[magik]

To avoid a flamewar, this has been placed here. A mod can move if deemed necessary.

Console titans Microsoft and Sony are taking a completely different approach to the next generation of huge storage. The first sticks to the current dual-layer DVD standard completely as far as games are concerned, whilst Sony tries to give its Blu-Ray format extra momentum by incorporating it into its upcoming PlayStation 3 console. Taiwanese game developers and game services providers are now first to openly proclaim they favor Microsoft?s approach.

The main problems Microsoft foresaw with using next-gen formats were mainly with availability, price and speed. Sony saw its console delayed by a year partially because of the lack of drives available, and when it does arrive this November it will be $200 more expensive than a similarly powerful Xbox 360 playing mostly the same games. The speed issue is also not one to be taken lightly: despite having well over 2 times as much storage space available, 25GB on a single layer Blu-Ray disc versus 9GB on the dual layer DVD, the current next-gen drives actually have a data transfer rate below half of what the 360?s 12-speed DVD drive crunches out. 2.5 times as much data at half the speed? and you thought loading times in PGR3 were already bad?

The Taiwanese state Microsoft took the wise route by adopting the backwards compatible and cheaper HD-DVD system as a $200 upgrade, due out this Christmas, rather than a mandatory investment:

External drives have more flexibility than built-in models, the companies pointed out, while adding that despite BD having a much larger storage capacity than HD-DVD, pre-installation of BD drives may decrease the market competitiveness of PS3 units.

Microsoft adopted HD-DVD instead of BD mainly because HD-DVD is compatible with existing DVD formats while also having much lower production costs, the Taiwanese companies noted.

With format support varying, it will still be unclear for a while which format will eventually become the mainstream format for distributing HD video and large amounts of data. Blu-Ray mainly has support from the movie studios due to its rigid implementation of DRM, whereas HD-DVD is backed by PC moguls Microsoft and Intel for ease of implementation and flexibility, and also has some movie studio support. The outcome of the ?war? may be of little concern to the consumer though, as cross-format drives are already heading towards the market.

Source

[yankee lion]

Not to be mean or anything, but since when did Taiwanese developers matter? I'm not even aware of any major ones actually.

[Digitalx]

yea what does taiwanese developers have to do with a format that dosent involve developers on it?

[PL_ Veteran]

We probably haven't heard of the games, and they might be more popular in Taiwan?

Also, about the BD, doesn't HDD caching help?

[Spartan_X]

Not to be mean or anything, but since when did Taiwanese developers matter? I'm not even aware of any major ones actually.

piracy helps to move console hardware but damage software sales... but! depending in how big your installed base is the easier will be to gather support from game studios. support from games studios means more games in your platform, more games means more chances to get a new customer and more costumers means more hardware and software sales.

a controlled amount of piracy will help you to promote your platform on its early life cycle stage, and this is the approach used by Sony to move consoles in some territories.

Taiwan = piracy... :shifty: :whistle:

Just as the porn industry helped the VHS to win over the Beta (and maybe it will be same on the HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray) piracy sometimes can be a good thing... :pinch:

[Bhav]

But Blu-ray is backwards compatible with DVD...

@PureLegend: Yes. Since there's a hard drive in every PS3, devs can assume its presence and use it.

Also, about read speeds: with DVDs, the read speed varies depending on the part of the disc. With HD-DVD and Blu-ray, it's a constant read speed throughout.

[Deaf Spacker]

But Blu-ray is backwards compatible with DVD...

@PureLegend: Yes. Since there's a hard drive in every PS3, devs can assume its presence and use it.

Also, about read speeds: with DVDs, the read speed varies depending on the part of the disc. With HD-DVD and Blu-ray, it's a constant read speed throughout.

The read speed may vary but it can still reach 16X compared to Blue Ray's 4X, I know which one I prefer :yes:

[Bhav]

The read speed may vary but it can still reach 16X compared to Blue Ray's 4X, I know which one I prefer :yes:

True, but then hard drive caching should help solve any problems with load times ;)

[Deaf Spacker]

True, but then hard drive caching should help solve any problems with load times ;)

The 360 does that too ;)

Hell even the original Xbox did.

[Bhav]

The 360 does that too ;)

Hell even the original Xbox did.

Except every 360 doesn't have a hard drive, so it will never be utilised in the way developers will be able to with the PS3. For the PS3, devs can explicitly rely on the hard drive - with the 360, they have to have an alternative for the Core owners.

Yeah the original Xbox did have the hard drive, which was the one thing they got right with that console. They should've done the same with the 360.

But anyway, this isn't a discussion about hard drives.

The article is wrong in suggesting that Blu-ray isn't backwards compatible.

[username();]

But Blu-ray is backwards compatible with DVD...

No it's not. It uses a different, incompatible laser. All Blue-ray drives that want to read DVD's must ship with a second optical sensor.

Listen man, why the hell are you always so pro-PS3? I don?t get that. Either you need to discover something called the outside world, or your getting paid by Sony.Literally man, every time I read a pro-PS3 comment, I think o man, this can’t be another of Bhav’s posts, but, then they usually are.

[magik]

Except every 360 doesn't have a hard drive, so it will never be utilised in the way developers will be able to with the PS3. For the PS3, devs can explicitly rely on the hard drive - with the 360, they have to have an alternative for the Core owners.

Yeah the original Xbox did have the hard drive, which was the one thing they got right with that console. They should've done the same with the 360.

But anyway, this isn't a discussion about hard drives.

The article is wrong in suggesting that Blu-ray isn't backwards compatible.

Backwards compatibility is not inherit in Blu-Ray drives, it has to be supported by the manufacturer and is relatively harder to support in Blu-Ray players than it is in HD-DVD players, thus another reason behind the higher price.

[Deaf Spacker]

Except every 360 doesn't have a hard drive, so it will never be utilised in the way developers will be able to with the PS3. For the PS3, devs can explicitly rely on the hard drive - with the 360, they have to have an alternative for the Core owners.

Yeah the original Xbox did have the hard drive, which was the one thing they got right with that console. They should've done the same with the 360.

But anyway, this isn't a discussion about hard drives.

The article is wrong in suggesting that Blu-ray isn't backwards compatible.

I got pwned :laugh:

[PL_ Veteran]

Except every 360 doesn't have a hard drive, so it will never be utilised in the way developers will be able to with the PS3. For the PS3, devs can explicitly rely on the hard drive - with the 360, they have to have an alternative for the Core owners.

Ah. But although the PS3 always ships with a HDD, can't games still play without it? It is detatchable...

And, although it is reccommended to not rely on the HDD, Xbox 360 developers can. Final Fantasy XI and Football Manager 2006 are examples of games that won't work without the HDD.

Also, is it true that first-gen BD players can't play CDs?

[Bhav]

No it's not. It uses a different, incompatible laser. All Blue-ray drives that want to read DVD's must ship with a second optical sensor.

Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD uses a blue laser. Therefore, by your logic, players for both formats will need a second optical "sensor" :rolleyes:

Backwards compatibility is not inherit in Blu-Ray drives, it has to be supported by the manufacturer and is relatively harder to support in Blu-Ray players than it is in HD-DVD players, thus another reason behind the higher price.

Why is it harder? Both use blue lasers.

It's more expensive because the structure of the disc is different, not because it's more difficult to support DVD.

Ah. But although the PS3 always ships with a HDD, can't games still play without it? It is detatchable...

Yes, but they have every right to assume its presence and use it. They can't do that if some people have an HDD and some do not...it would **** a lot of people off, and it would also hurt their sales.

It's a silly move to force people to have an HDD on the Xbox 360. I'm extremely suprised those two games require the hard drive.

Anyway, the point is that whilst the Blu-ray drive doesn't have a high read speed, the PS3 can compensate by using the HDD for caching. And because every person that buys a PS3 will have a compatible hard drive, the HDD can play a much bigger role in games than with the Xbox 360.

I'm not taking a shot at the 360...that's just the way it is.

And I don't know about the CD thing, sorry.

@username();: You could easily ignore my posts. I have merely tried to inform other people here of what the real facts are, and I think I've done that in an appropriate way. I haven't flamed/trolled/etc...

[Trong]

@username();: You could easily ignore my posts. I have merely tried to inform other people here of what the real facts are, and I think I've done that in an appropriate way. I haven't flamed/trolled/etc...

Haha, at username. Anyways, what kind of HDD will the PS3 be using since you guys are getting into the argument?

Isn't Taiwan known for making higher quality electronics? Like how things that are "Made in China" break in one day but things from Taiwan do better? :wacko:

[magik]

Why is it harder? Both use blue lasers.

It's more expensive because the structure of the disc is different, not because it's more difficult to support DVD.

As you said, the structure of the disc is different: the space between the disc and the laser as well as the thickness of specific layers in contrast to DVDs. HD-DVD, however, uses the same layer thickness as DVDs. This physical difference is what makes it harder for Blu-Ray drives to support DVDs, but don't get me wrong it is possible and they are doing it... just at a higher price tag.

Here's some reference information detailing this exact point from CDFreaks:

... Blu-ray offers a significantly higher storage capacity. The reason for this is the disc itself: while HD-DVD uses a similar disc to the DVD (0.6 mm disc with 0.6 mm protective coating), Blu-ray steps away from the DVD norm and uses a 1.1 mm disc with a protective layer of only 0.1 mm. The recording layer is therefore very close to the surface of the disc. The advantage is that the laser has less material to read through, which allows a higher NA, a lower track pitch, a smaller pit length and therefore more storage compared to HD-DVD.

But this proximity of the information layer also means that the BD disc is more vulnerable to accidental scratches. Furthermore, the lens has to be closer to the surface of the disc than any other optical disc before, which increases the risks of the lens accidentally hitting the disc. This seems so serious that the Blu-ray standard specifically mentions these risks and even recommends adding a “bumper” to the OPU. In practice, these high constraints will require a very high precision of both BD media manufacturing and drive's tilt control.

At first the BD discs were supposed to require a cartridge or a special coating to protect the disc, but later this idea was abandoned. Furthermore, TDK has managed to develop a hard coating that complies with the Blu-ray specifications for the disc, this should make a BD more resistant to damage and fingerprints than a current DVD.

The HD-DVD standard, on the other hand, offers a lower storage capacity, but through its similarity to the current DVD’s, again no hard coating is required (since the data layer is equally distant from both sides of the disc, it is naturally more difficult to damage). It is also much easier to make future optical drives backward compatible.

[Bhav]

As you said, the structure of the disc is different: the space between the disc and the laser as well as the thickness of specific layers in contrast to DVDs. HD-DVD, however, uses the same layer thickness as DVDs. This physical difference is what makes it harder for Blu-Ray drives to support DVDs, but don't get me wrong it is possible and they are doing it... just at a higher price tag.

Here's some reference information detailing this exact point from CDFreaks:

Ah right I see what you mean :)

[magik]

Ah right I see what you mean :)

Cheers for a friendly debate (Y) :D

[Bhav]

Haha, at username. Anyways, what kind of HDD will the PS3 be using since you guys are getting into the argument?

You can use any 2.5" SATA.

[Trong]

Yay for SATA. Everytime I see one of your posts, makes me want a PS3 more but I don't like RPGs. Nor do I have the money to buy one.

[jerzdawg]

But Blu-ray is backwards compatible with DVD...

I re-read the article just to be sure... but they never say that it isnt bc

" Microsoft adopted HD-DVD instead of BD mainly because HD-DVD is compatible with existing DVD formats while also having much lower production costs, the Taiwanese companies noted."

perhaps it just means that the HD-DVD BC is cheaper to produce than BD...??

... I used to enjoy some of your posts... some actually had meaning... but now you just post something just to start something...

[dblaze]

I re-read the article just to be sure... but they never say that it isnt bc

" Microsoft adopted HD-DVD instead of BD mainly because HD-DVD is compatible with existing DVD formats while also having much lower production costs, the Taiwanese companies noted."

perhaps it just means that the HD-DVD BC is cheaper to produce than BD...??

... I used to enjoy some of your posts... some actually had meaning... but now you just post something just to start something...

This helps.... this really helps, Xbox 360 FTW

[magik]

I re-read the article just to be sure... but they never say that it isnt bc

" Microsoft adopted HD-DVD instead of BD mainly because HD-DVD is compatible with existing DVD formats while also having much lower production costs, the Taiwanese companies noted."

perhaps it just means that the HD-DVD BC is cheaper to produce than BD...??

... I used to enjoy some of your posts... some actually had meaning... but now you just post something just to start something...

Did you completely ignore the posts me and Bhav had about this very topic? He didn't post that 'just to start something'... seems like you're the one trying to 'start something'. :rolleyes:

[jerzdawg]

Did you completely ignore the posts me and Bhav had about this very topic? He didn't post that 'just to start something'... seems like you're the one trying to 'start something'. :rolleyes:

I started the post prior to your response... I am at work so I cannot refresh each time before hitting submit... regardless of the responses... he still posts as soon as he sees anything anti-PS3... thats just his attitude toward this whole 360 vs ps3 issue... and im tired of seeing his posts all over the microsoft gaming area...