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Posted

[quote name='Audioboxer' post='590891852' date='Apr 23 2009, 23:05']Yeah I'm just wondering because native video playback either off hard drive or streaming depends on the codecs your console supports, not your PC. The only time PC codecs matter is if you require to transcode a video on your PC first before streaming it.

Also yes, .mts/.m2ts and AVCHD's work on the PS3.[/quote]

There's two ways you can play media on the 360 - either stream it over the network, or connect through windows media extender. The former relies on the codecs available on the 360 whereas the latter works like remote desktop (it essentially logs into your PC under a special account) so that works on codecs available on the comp.

That's why you can't play XVID through the 2nd method if you're using Vista 64bit atm because there's no 64-bit divx codec for Windows Media Center.

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[quote name='chAos972' post='590891884' date='Apr 23 2009, 14:14']There's two ways you can play media on the 360 - either stream it over the network, or connect through windows media extender. The former relies on the codecs available on the 360 whereas the latter works like remote desktop (it essentially logs into your PC under a special account) so that works on codecs available on the comp.

That's why you can't play XVID through the 2nd method if you're using Vista 64bit atm because there's no 64-bit divx codec for Windows Media Center.[/quote]

So what is it streaming to your 360 then, a video of your video? [That's what remote desktop would be like no?]

Because if it's streaming the actual video file natively to the 360 it would still need the codec support on the 360 hardware would it not? The 360 can't do the decoding itself if it has no software/codecs to do so... Which means if it's being decoded on the PC, the PC must be sending a video of the video?

Auch, I'm not sure, I'm confused about how it works...

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[quote name='Audioboxer' post='590891908' date='Apr 23 2009, 09:22']So what is it streaming to your 360 then, a video of your video? [That's what remote desktop would be like no?]

Because if it's streaming the actual video file natively to the 360 it would still need the codec support on the 360 hardware would it not? The 360 can't do the decoding itself if it has no software/codecs to do so... Which means if it's being decoded on the PC, the PC must be sending a video of the video?

Auch, I'm not sure, I'm confused about how it works...[/quote]
As a MCE, it remote desktops but then it has a dedicated video stream but it still depends on the codec support on the extender and renders UI on Xbox 360. If you install ffdshow codec on a Vista box, the MC on the computer then will play Xvid/Divx but the extender - Xbox 360 won't. I am equally confused but [url="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb852206.aspx"]you can read more here[/url].

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Posted

I just stick to WMV's. Sure that can create some availability limitations, but not that much, and I can get 1080P with 5.1.

(800GB)

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[quote name='Briandl79' post='590897190' date='Apr 24 2009, 11:00']I just stick to WMV's. Sure that can create some availability limitations, but not that much, and I can get 1080P with 5.1.

(800GB)[/quote]
How do you create/encode those?

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Posted

[quote name='Audioboxer' post='590891852' date='Apr 23 2009, 08:05']Yeah I'm just wondering because native video playback either off hard drive or streaming depends on the codecs your console supports, not your PC. The only time PC codecs matter is if you require to transcode a video on your PC first before streaming it.[/quote]

Not quite correct. Many streaming programs also transcode in realtime as you are watching the video on your 360 (or PS3 for that matter). In those cases, it IS the codecs on your computer that matter, not the codec support on your console.

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[quote name='roadwarrior' post='590897702' date='Apr 24 2009, 17:46']Not quite correct. Many streaming programs also transcode in realtime as you are watching the video on your 360 (or PS3 for that matter). In those cases, it IS the codecs on your computer that matter, not the codec support on your console.[/quote]

That's what I meant sorry, I didn't word it great.

[quote]The only time PC codecs matter is if you require to transcode a video on your PC first before streaming it.[/quote]

I use PS3MS and it will transcode on the fly.

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Posted

[quote name='dhan' post='590892452' date='Apr 23 2009, 11:23']As a MCE, it remote desktops but then it has a dedicated video stream but it still depends on the codec support on the extender and renders UI on Xbox 360. If you install ffdshow codec on a Vista box, the MC on the computer then will play Xvid/Divx but the extender - Xbox 360 won't. I am equally confused but [url="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb852206.aspx"]you can read more here[/url].[/quote]

interesting.. so what it seems is that an actual media center extender, like the one that is part of xbox360, really relies on the Media center computer for what it can play.. since win7 media center has additional codecs included natively, the media center extender is able to play those files when connected to a win7 MC computer?

i have a ps3 so always use it to stream any video. but i do have a 360 i should try it out with vista and 7 to see what its like.

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[quote name='dhan' post='590897646' date='Apr 24 2009, 11:33']How do you create/encode those?[/quote]

I don't I acquire them.

I have encoded some WMV's from MKV's in the past, it was pretty time consuming (I only did this for a few things I couldn't find already encoded in WMV and only available as MKV)

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Posted (edited)

[quote name='bob21' post='590808098' date='Apr 5 2009, 03:22']I really wish people would stop using this crap.[/quote]

I wish the same. Why would Microsoft support this? I doubt there is a single reputable company supports the mkv container. It seems kind of pointless since you can do the same with an mp4 container and that's widely supported by media extenders etc. Pirates are the one using pushing mkv for some odd reason. Edited by Deihmos

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[quote name='Deihmos' post='590906222' date='Apr 26 2009, 10:00']I wish the same. Why would Microsoft support this? I doubt there is a single reputable company supports the mkv container. It seems kind of pointless since you can do the same with an mp4 container and that's widely supported by media extenders etc. Pirates are the one using pushing mkv for some odd reason.[/quote]

Yea, its pretty annoying. Why bother creating another format/container, just what we need right? ogg, mp2, mp3, mp4, aac, mkv, wmv, wma, rm, ra, divx, xvid, avi, mov, m2ts, mpeg, mpeg2, ts blah blah blah..

I would be so nice if everyone standardized. All we need is WMV Corona / VC-1 / WM9 if you think about it. Its the most fully feature complete video/audio system. It supports 56k modems up to 50megabit archive quality, does mono voice, to 7.1 surround. Optimized for streaming and archiving. Has incredible video quality. Has a super fast and easy compressor which can also do live encoding/streaming. And is now almost universally hardware accelerated. If you have a DX8 or newer video card, you have full WMV acceleration with DXVA. My Athlon XP 2700+ with ATI X800XL 256, couldn't play a 720p h.264 at more than 1-2FPS. But it could fly on a 1080p WMV file. Im not a fan of locking into a proprietary format, so it would be nice if MSFT would open it up and loosen the licensing fees if there are any?

I do agree h.264 is great too, but it has its limits. It takes much longer to encode to it, and much more horse power to decode it. It took me months to be able to get my 8core Mac Pro (2.8ghz, 6gigs ram, Geforce 8800GT 512meg) to decode mkv's with h.264. Finally got it working with a new ffdshow. And mkv, h.264 and aac, or ac3, or DTS weren't designed to work together as well as WM9 was. They do work together, I'm just saying its not a fully integrated solution. Theres not official one stop encoder solution, and one device might support XYZ, but another doesnt support ZYX... If you get a WM certified device, it all works. I wouldn't mind seeing a good fully supported implementation of h.264 and a good audio codec stick around and compete, but 2 standard formats would be much nicer than the hundreds we have.

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Posted (edited)

[quote name='daz-' post='590907022' date='Apr 26 2009, 20:17']Yea, its pretty annoying. Why bother creating another format/container, just what we need right? ogg, mp2, mp3, mp4, aac, mkv, wmv, wma, rm, ra, divx, xvid, avi, mov, m2ts, mpeg, mpeg2, ts blah blah blah..

I would be so nice if everyone standardized. All we need is WMV Corona / VC-1 / WM9 if you think about it. Its the most fully feature complete video/audio system. It supports 56k modems up to 50megabit archive quality, does mono voice, to 7.1 surround. Optimized for streaming and archiving. Has incredible video quality. Has a super fast and easy compressor which can also do live encoding/streaming. And is now almost universally hardware accelerated. If you have a DX8 or newer video card, you have full WMV acceleration with DXVA. My Athlon XP 2700+ with ATI X800XL 256, couldn't play a 720p h.264 at more than 1-2FPS. But it could fly on a 1080p WMV file. Im not a fan of locking into a proprietary format, so it would be nice if MSFT would open it up and loosen the licensing fees if there are any?

I do agree h.264 is great too, but it has its limits. It takes much longer to encode to it, and much more horse power to decode it. It took me months to be able to get my 8core Mac Pro (2.8ghz, 6gigs ram, Geforce 8800GT 512meg) to decode mkv's with h.264. Finally got it working with a new ffdshow. And mkv, h.264 and aac, or ac3, or DTS weren't designed to work together as well as WM9 was. They do work together, I'm just saying its not a fully integrated solution. Theres not official one stop encoder solution, and one device might support XYZ, but another doesnt support ZYX... If you get a WM certified device, it all works. I wouldn't mind seeing a good fully supported implementation of h.264 and a good audio codec stick around and compete, but 2 standard formats would be much nicer than the hundreds we have.[/quote]

No.

H264 + DTS or TrueHD is the best combination, followed by AC3.

It's an open source format, Microsoft own WMV/WM9/WMA which makes encoding it even more of a pain in the ass as you have to use/pay for propitiatory software.

There's your biggest reason H264 and MKV are the most popular for rippers, it costs nothing to be able to encode. I encode my Blu Rays and can do one in roughly a days work.

E6600 @ 3.4ghz and 4GB of ram.

H264 is also DXVA compliant by the way, if you encode it correctly.

MKV is just the container, you can easily mux to other containers. The issue here is MS not supporting enough codecs/combinations with the 360, most other media servers like the PS3/Popcorn Hour/etc can easily play what's contained within MKV files.

If they've not been ripped to DXVA standards you may need to transcode or patch the H264 video stream, but that shouldn't be an issue if you're ripping your own movies as you just re-rip. If you're downloading you've got no real "right" to be moaning about anything :p

ps. Ideal scenario is not to encode anything at all, modern day Blu Rays are encoded in AVC, meaning you just rip the disc and the M2TS file will playback natively on many players, PS3 included. A lot of people still encode though as an untouched Blu Ray movie ranges around 25GB+ and the encode can be up to or even less than half the size for no real quality loss. Edited by Audioboxer

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Posted

^ H.264 is not open source. :p Assuming you used that term in the sense of "free software".
[quote][b]Patent licensing[/b]
In countries where [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent"]patents on software algorithms[/url] are upheld, the vendors of products which make use of H.264/AVC are expected to pay [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent"]patent[/url] licensing royalties for the patented technology[sup][[i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify"]clarification needed[/url][/i]][/sup] that their products use. This applies to the Baseline Profile as well.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264#cite_note-4"][5][/url][/sup] A private organization known as [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA"]MPEG LA[/url], which is not affiliated in any way with the MPEG standardization organization, administers the licenses for patents applying to this standard, as well as the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_pool"]patent pools[/url] for MPEG-2 Part 1 Systems, MPEG-2 Part 2 Video, MPEG-4 Part 2 Video, and other technologies.

In 2005, Qualcomm, which was the assignee of US Patents 5,452,104[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264#cite_note-5"][6][/url][/sup] and 5,576,767[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264#cite_note-6"][7][/url][/sup], sued Broadcom in US District Court, alleging that Broadcom infringed the two patents by making products that were compliant with the H.264 video compression standard.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264#cite_note-case-7"][8][/url][/sup] In 2007, the District Court found that the patents were unenforceable because Qualcomm had failed to disclose them to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JVT"]JVT[/url] prior to the release of the H.264 standard in May 2003.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264#cite_note-case-7"][8][/url][/sup] In December 2008, the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit affirmed the District Court's order that the patents be unenforceable but remanded to the District Court with instructions to limit the scope of unenforceability to H.264 compliant products.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264#cite_note-case-7"][8][/url][/sup][/quote]

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Posted

Fair enough :p

What I should have worded it like is its easy and free for me to encode to H264 with the likes of Handbrake/etc.

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Posted

Just for anyone thinking of purchasing a network media player like popcornhour and expecting flawless MKV playback think again even if your device can handle the container weather it can actually play the file is hit and miss. And even if the file plays get ready for audiosync hell and forced Chinese subtitles .

Save yourself a lot of time and effort , Get the video and audio bitrates from the MKV file and transcode it with those values . The rusult is a divx avi which has the same resolution, bitrate and filesize as the MKV file with noneof the horrendous compatibility issues .

Avoid, Avoid, Avoid .

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Posted

I've gotten MKV's to play on the X360 via the 7 Media Center but the quality is degraded big time, it's like a watching a crappy video capture from a mobile phone.

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Posted (edited)

[quote name='bob21' post='590907236' date='Apr 26 2009, 21:04']Just for anyone thinking of purchasing a network media player like popcornhour and expecting flawless MKV playback think again even if your device can handle the container weather it can actually play the file is hit and miss. And even if the file plays get ready for audiosync hell and forced Chinese subtitles .

Save yourself a lot of time and effort , Get the video and audio bitrates from the MKV file and transcode it with those values . The rusult is a divx avi which has the same resolution, bitrate and filesize as the MKV file with noneof the horrendous compatibility issues .

Avoid, Avoid, Avoid .[/quote]

Yes, hit or miss if you're downloading MKVs off the internet.

Popcornhour requires DXVA compliant encodes which aren't in anyway any less quality, they're just encoded [i]correctly[/i]. Something everyone's buddies in the scene did not do to start with on the whole (few groups did, most didn't), although I think DXVA compliancy is now a scene rule.

The scene lives on fastest to release wins, half these groups will sacrifice quality/compatibility in the effort of speed in getting the movie out. Once it's out and if not nuked, it can't be duped, not even by a better quality release. Encoding your own Blu Rays is the way to go if you want to avoid compatibility issues. Although as I said above I'm sure DXVA compliancy is now a scene rule, so most of you will be rejoicing if you have media servers.

Any sort of transcoding results in quality loss to some extent, can be minor, can be major. Edited by Audioboxer

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Posted

[quote name='bob21' post='590907236' date='Apr 26 2009, 16:04']Just for anyone thinking of purchasing a network media player like popcornhour and expecting flawless MKV playback think again even if your device can handle the container weather it can actually play the file is hit and miss. And even if the file plays get ready for audiosync hell and forced Chinese subtitles .

Save yourself a lot of time and effort , Get the video and audio bitrates from the MKV file and transcode it with those values . The rusult is a divx avi which has the same resolution, bitrate and filesize as the MKV file with noneof the horrendous compatibility issues .

Avoid, Avoid, Avoid .[/quote]
I don't have tools to and don't know how to encode WMV Pro. After WMV, only real option is H.264 in terms of quality/bitrate and pure MP4 solution of H.264/AAC is useless since my receiver/Xbox doesn't know 5.1AAC, then what is the option? H.264+AC3 = AVCHD ;) (or MKV - take your pick).
There is more to video quality than resolution and bitrate. :)

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Posted

[quote name='limok' post='590907284' date='Apr 26 2009, 21:13']I've gotten MKV's to play on the X360 via the 7 Media Center but the quality is degraded big time, it's like a watching a crappy video capture from a mobile phone.[/quote]

Same here... All I've done to Win7 RC was installing Haali Matroska Splitter so I could play and see MKV in WMP 12 and WMC 7. XBOX360 played it, but the quality was like 'limok' mentioned before. I am confused now, because I don't know, should I be happy or should I be sad :)

I just want to avoid having another player / STB / whatever for streaming HD media from my PC, because XBOX ought to be just fine, only if MS would reprogram the console to play all possible video/audio formats.

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Posted

If the quality is different, WMP12/WMC must be transcoding the video....

If it's doing it on the fly, then it will most certainly depend on how powerful your PC is, but there should be some sort of settings somewhere?

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Posted

Yeaaah, man.. I just love those tiny little hints, [i]Audiboxer[/i], which turn your mind on, to figure out a solution. I've got a winner now.

I said to myslef, to hell with WMC, let me use WMP12 on PC [u]to send [/u]streaming signal to XBOX360 (not from WMC on XBOX360 to recieve it). When XBOX360 is configured as Extender to WMC [u]and turned on[/u], WMP12 lets you use command "[b]right click to video / Play to / XBOX360[/b]".

I've found Advanced settings in WMP12: Left Alt / [b]Tools / Options / Devices / Advanced[/b]

You may see that there is the first checkbox checked by default "Allow video files to convert in the background". [b]All you have to do is to uncheck this setting. Video goes to Extender in a second, without buffering[/b] (if converting is enabled, buffering takes some time).

I've tested the fourth checkbox also "Choose quality over speed when converting video (increases the conversion time)" while having first one checked also --> result was also good, bot the processor was quite busy this time, so I preffer disabling converting at all and having processor not busy.

[b]Note:[/b] Of course, don't forget to get Haali Media Splitter for Matroska (MKV) installed (or any other solution), so WMP12 may recognize this kind of video container any play it (no need for extra x.264 decoder/codec though, because Windows 7 already have it).

Hope this helped someone!

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Posted

Can't get mine post to edit :huh: or did not find the function button?!

Nevertheless, post above needs edit for Note at the bottom...

I managed to stream MKV video only on x86 Win7 RC by playing around: not just installingHaali Media Splitter for MKV, but registry patch for MKV to show in WMP library(!) and MAYBE ffdshow-tryouts (not sure if this one is neccessary, but it was installed when it was working).
source: [url="http://a8t8.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!2518DD508BB713E8!220.entry"]http://a8t8.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!2...8!220.entry[/url]

Well, x64 Win7 RC did not have that luck. I managed to play MKVs in WMP12 only by using Haali (even though it is only x86 edition), but in WMC played only when x64 registry patch was installed and MAYBE Gabest MKV Splitter (I installed both at the same time and restarted, so I cannot be sure which one did the magic, if not both). Whenever trying to stream MKV video to Extender by using "Play to" from WMP12, WMC on Extender gave error that there is no codec to play this content?!
Same source for x64: [url="http://a8t8.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!2518DD508BB713E8!141.entry"]http://a8t8.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!2...8!141.entry[/url]

There are many similiar instructions all over the internet.

Testing all this stuff take a lot of time and lots of restarts, so I did not cover all possible combination yet. I went to sleep at 2.30 am :blink:

edit: oh, edit button works here, but did not work on last post, because I am at workplace now :) not at home

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Posted

[quote name='Audioboxer' post='590907074' date='Apr 26 2009, 13:29']No.

H264 + DTS or TrueHD is the best combination, followed by AC3.

It's an open source format, Microsoft own WMV/WM9/WMA which makes encoding it even more of a pain in the ass as you have to use/pay for propitiatory software.

There's your biggest reason H264 and MKV are the most popular for rippers, it costs nothing to be able to encode. I encode my Blu Rays and can do one in roughly a days work.

E6600 @ 3.4ghz and 4GB of ram.

H264 is also DXVA compliant by the way, if you encode it correctly.

MKV is just the container, you can easily mux to other containers. The issue here is MS not supporting enough codecs/combinations with the 360, most other media servers like the PS3/Popcorn Hour/etc can easily play what's contained within MKV files.

If they've not been ripped to DXVA standards you may need to transcode or patch the H264 video stream, but that shouldn't be an issue if you're ripping your own movies as you just re-rip. If you're downloading you've got no real "right" to be moaning about anything :p

ps. Ideal scenario is not to encode anything at all, modern day Blu Rays are encoded in AVC, meaning you just rip the disc and the M2TS file will playback natively on many players, PS3 included. A lot of people still encode though as an untouched Blu Ray movie ranges around 25GB+ and the encode can be up to or even less than half the size for no real quality loss.[/quote]

LOL, No.

Actually Yes.

h.264 + DTS is just as closed/open as WMV. The WMV encoder is free and easy to call in 3rd party programs. It doesn't cost anything to encode with WMV.

My point for WMV is that its the most fully complete solution, which streams from dial-up to archive bit-rates, supports mono voice through 7.1 lossless surround. And it's tightly integrated, so the audio and video work well together and it has a tuned container to ensure smooth playback.

I don't deny h.264 + DTS + mkv can work well together, but it wasn't designed from the ground up to work well together. In fact is it wasn't designed to work together from the beginning. And from a business perspective you have multiple vendors and licensing to deal with, and no one for full support (who do you call if the MKV container is screwing up?).

Obviously the ideal solution is not to TRANSCODE anything, but people still do it. I'm saying we should have one, or maybe two fully supported standards. That way I don't have to worry if a video I download will work on my iPhone, or my Mac, or my WD TV, or my Zune (for those who own them).

Also note, many Blu-Ray titles use VC-1 which is actually WMV9 Corona.

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[quote name='damyang' post='590917400' date='Apr 28 2009, 23:17']Yeaaah, man.. I just love those tiny little hints, [i]Audiboxer[/i], which turn your mind on, to figure out a solution. I've got a winner now.

I said to myslef, to hell with WMC, let me use WMP12 on PC [u]to send [/u]streaming signal to XBOX360 (not from WMC on XBOX360 to recieve it). When XBOX360 is configured as Extender to WMC [u]and turned on[/u], WMP12 lets you use command "[b]right click to video / Play to / XBOX360[/b]".

I've found Advanced settings in WMP12: Left Alt / [b]Tools / Options / Devices / Advanced[/b]

You may see that there is the first checkbox checked by default "Allow video files to convert in the background". [b]All you have to do is to uncheck this setting. Video goes to Extender in a second, without buffering[/b] (if converting is enabled, buffering takes some time).

I've tested the fourth checkbox also "Choose quality over speed when converting video (increases the conversion time)" while having first one checked also --> result was also good, bot the processor was quite busy this time, so I preffer disabling converting at all and having processor not busy.

[b]Note:[/b] Of course, don't forget to get Haali Media Splitter for Matroska (MKV) installed (or any other solution), so WMP12 may recognize this kind of video container any play it (no need for extra x.264 decoder/codec though, because Windows 7 already have it).

Hope this helped someone![/quote]

wow, this is perfect timing for me. my 360 which i bought for extender is coming on thursday. so this thread has been really useful and informative.

it sounds like most of my videos are going to work fine as they are divx. i will definitely try to get mkv support working with the method you give and i will be using 32bit 7 so hopefully i should have some luck.

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Posted

Hey All,

First off, im sorry im briniging this topic back from the dead, but i was having issues with getting my xbox 360 setup with the extender etc.

I have the same problem as the initial poster....mkv files look fine on my screen (when on computer) but when run through extender --> xbox 360 --> projector --> 12 foot screen they looked like low res jpegs....

I used the original posters method with "muxing" and it seems far better...but im curious...since the original post is 2 years old..is this still the best way of doing it? is there a better way now with an update to stream....

Some background...

Machine is running win 7 media centre..(intel core 2 duo..e6700 8 gigs ram etc...) all network between machines, xbox is hardwired....xbox runs composite (set to 720p wide screen)) to the projector..(early xbox 360 without hdmi)...but this makes no difference as other 720p movies i have look crystal clear ..

tried tversity straight to xbox...and it kinda sucked as the transcoding didnt always work, or was slow and stuttering.....before i got the xbox i was running styraight from computer Media centre to projector...(but xbox was easier for wife to figure out)

so again, i just wanted to know, are there updates now or better software....that do this mkv through xbox better?

Thanks

Paul

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