Opera: Microsoft's 'minor tweak' of Windows 7 not enough

[FISKER_Q]

No. Should I throw my Photoshop CS4 away because it has "Gamut warning" that I don't need?

So, what was your real problem with Opera?

Did i pay for Opera?

No.

Your comparison is invalid, unlike Photoshop i can change browsers pretty easily and freely, not the case with Photoshop, so my previous answer stands.

[Subject Delta]

I'm on the side of Opera :D obviously Microsoft should cut some FAT! Constantly digging into the lives of people by invading privacy! Look at that Windows media player for instance, I'm tried of using Anti-Spy softwares to disable "Automatic" functions, tweaking all the nonsense so that softwares behaves right and does not phone HOME!

This is like CIA keeping your life's logs and sending it back to it's base! How annoying is that? They make the OS, they make the browser, they make the network drivers so, are we to trust Microsoft blindly for everything??? I'm so happy that my router is OUTside my system and gives me full information of which software behaves badly.

<snipped> The only 'phoning home' done is the reporting of simple usage statistics by Microsoft, a process in which no personally identifiable information is collected. Oh, and the occasional update check.

Well, its very easy to destroy trust and very hard to gain. I simply can't swallow that Microsoft will NOT call home for various reasons in their current or future OS (even if I set disable internet communication in gpedit.msc it will contact home regardless) They just don't care anymore, all I know is that they are keeping more and more doors open so "someone" can get inside out privacy. The huge bulk of softwares and running services proves only one thing :( you're a TARGET!

You can't even swallow the fact that running a 64 bit OS is better than using ramdisks, and you can't accept the simple fact that putting your paging file in memory has no performance benifit. The simple fact is that your knowledge of computers is poor at best, and if you seriously believe that Microsoft are using Windows to spy on people, then I would suggest getting into a new profession, because passing your xenophobic suspicions onto customers would be bad for the IT world in general, and this kind of misinformation is precisely why so many people still have problems with computers

Edited July 26, 2009 by Calum
Removed something which offended JunkMail

[theclueless]

if people are advanced enough turn IE back on from the feature list, they will be smart enough not to use Opera

if EU court is stupid enough to force MS to strip IE from Windows, MS should pull Windows from EU market all together, and let them pay their premium to Apple; they will be running back soon enough

[Jorkand]

Got x86 (32Bit) OS? Access RAM beyond 3.xxGB Limit of Windows

1. Enable unManaged memory by RamDisk Plus or Romex's RamDisk (freeware)

2. Enable or Put your PageFile path to that RamDisk :) (Set Max size according to RamDisk size)

DETAILED: Make 32Bit Windows to access memory beyond 3.xxGB limit! CLICK :)

Thats the stupidest thing I have ever read. Do you know anything about how operating systems work or are you still in middle school?

[Sem XL]

if people are advanced enough turn IE back on from the feature list, they will be smart enough not to use Opera

if EU court is stupid enough to force MS to strip IE from Windows, MS should pull Windows from EU market all together, and let them pay their premium to Apple; they will be running back soon enough

nice user name you got there

its very fitting :D

[Nagisan]

the reason why Opera doesn't appeal to me, is because it's feature overload, which is a shame because it's a good browser actually.

Did you know none of those features use resources unless you actually enable them?

Yes Opera has a lot of features, but you do not have to use any of them if you do not want to.

My father for example, he is not computer illiterate, but he is not as advanced as most of the people who would visit a tech forum. He has personally tried IE (obviously), FF and Opera. He does not use ANY of the features Opera includes, but he still finds it to me much faster and more stable than Firefox. He has been using it for months and has never looked back at IE or Firefox.....in fact, he recently had to use my moms computer (which runs Firefox) for a month and he went out on his own and downloaded and installed Opera just so he didn't have to use Firefox.

I personally use many Opera features, such as their Mail system (why use a separate application if you leave your browser open 24/7 and your browser supports mail access?), their RSS reader....Speed-dial, single-key shortcuts, mouse gestures and content blocking........I once downloaded Firefox and spent an hour looking for all the same features (not just looking for the feature and calling it done, actually testing the feature and ensuring it worked how I wanted it to), in the end I still found Opera to be better as it has all of that built in, no looking for plugins, no installing them and no updating them.....they were all there and they just worked.

Now, I dont know about you, but regardless of features, if a browser is better than the competition then why use the competition? I mean....does it really hurt you that the features you will never use are available to use? Does it irk you to see those features available even though you don't use them? I personally just ignore the features I don't use and get on with it.

Its like comparing a Windows OS to a Linux OS you have to pay for....sure you can customize Linux a LOT more, but if all the features you use are there out of the box on Windows (such as playing most games without an issue) and it has a bunch of other features you never use, are you still going to go for the Linux OS just so you don't have to look at features you don't plan on using?

Its like registering at Neowin and only visiting the software section of the forums. Theres many other sections/features to use on Neowin, are you going to stop visiting Neowin and start visiting a software-only forum just because you don't use all of the features Neowin has available?

[splur]

Oh shut it Opera, no one wants to use your piece of **** browser anyways.

They treat their users like they don't know anything, that doesn't spark any confidence. I use Windows, I install Firefox and completely ignore IE. It's not brain surgery.

[JOHW]

I wonder how many people here have used Opera fully without any preconceived prejudice against it. It is a fast (definitely better than IE or Firefox) browser with many features that I use. I ignore those that I don't. And when I use Firefox or Chrome, I have to download all the extensions that make up for the lack of functionality. These extensions slow down Firefox.

Chrome still lacks a lot of extension functionality..I'm open to using Chrome full time when its extension engine is fully implemented

The only gripe I have with Opera is some site compatibilities due to the website's fault most of the time.

[FISKER_Q]

Did you know none of those features use resources unless you actually enable them?

Yes Opera has a lot of features, but you do not have to use any of them if you do not want to.

As i already said, not using the features is not the reason for not using Opera, the reason is that it's needless for me to use a browser which is no better for me, than any other browser.

My father for example, he is not computer illiterate, but he is not as advanced as most of the people who would visit a tech forum. He has personally tried IE (obviously), FF and Opera. He does not use ANY of the features Opera includes, but he still finds it to me much faster and more stable than Firefox. He has been using it for months and has never looked back at IE or Firefox.....in fact, he recently had to use my moms computer (which runs Firefox) for a month and he went out on his own and downloaded and installed Opera just so he didn't have to use Firefox.

Now, I dont know about you, but regardless of features, if a browser is better than the competition then why use the competition? I mean....does it really hurt you that the features you will never use are available to use? Does it irk you to see those features available even though you don't use them? I personally just ignore the features I don't use and get on with it.

I don't find it faster or more stable than Chrome, and i like the design in Chrome better than i like it in Opera.

Its like comparing a Windows OS to a Linux OS you have to pay for....sure you can customize Linux a LOT more, but if all the features you use are there out of the box on Windows (such as playing most games without an issue) and it has a bunch of other features you never use, are you still going to go for the Linux OS just so you don't have to look at features you don't plan on using?

Its like registering at Neowin and only visiting the software section of the forums. Theres many other sections/features to use on Neowin, are you going to stop visiting Neowin and start visiting a software-only forum just because you don't use all of the features Neowin has available?

Linux doesn't have the features i need, Windows does, and yes there are lot of features in Windows i don't use, which i also try to disable with tools like vlite/nlite/aik. But that isn't relevant to this discussion because Opera have the features i need, IE have the features i need, Firefox have the features i need, Chrome have the features i need, and i decided that for now Chrome is the best browser considering the features i need.

[ViperAFK]

I wonder how many people here have used Opera fully without any preconceived prejudice against it. It is a fast (definitely better than IE or Firefox) browser with many features that I use. I ignore those that I don't. And when I use Firefox or Chrome, I have to download all the extensions that make up for the lack of functionality. These extensions slow down Firefox.

Chrome still lacks a lot of extension functionality..I'm open to using Chrome full time when its extension engine is fully implemented

The only gripe I have with Opera is some site compatibilities due to the website's fault most of the time.

I can tell half the people in this thread have never used it and are spewing nonsense. This thread is so full of trolls :/

[carmatic]

I can tell half the people in this thread have never used it and are spewing nonsense. This thread is so full of trolls :/

by 'it' , do you mean firefox, chrome or opera?

Edited July 26, 2009 by carmatic

[ViperAFK]

Opera.

[Nagisan]

As i already said, not using the features is not the reason for not using Opera, the reason is that it's needless for me to use a browser which is no better for me, than any other browser.

In that case it comes down to pure preference........I personally have tried Chrome and despite its lack of features I do not find it faster than Opera, or at least not fast enough to make me want to switch from Opera. In my own personal experience, Opera and Chrome are about even in speed, Firefox is slower and IE I'm not even counting because it just plain sucks..........Opera having many features I use is why I use it instead of Chrome.....if Chrome had built-in mail and a few other things, I could honestly see myself using it over Opera, just for its extra stability where no single tab can crash the browser.

[JunkMail]

I can tell half the people in this thread have never used it and are spewing nonsense. This thread is so full of trolls :/

I'm on Opera

[thealexweb]

Would Opera let that ballot screen go ahead, without their product included... :rolleyes:

Also the other issues...

- What order are the browsers listed in?

- What about new browsers being released in Windows 7's lifetime...

- If the browsers are on the machine, they will be come out of date...

- How do they decide on which browsers to include?

- Who is responsible if a browser like Chrome messes up the OS?

Here is an alternative proposal. Put all the popular browsers onto Windows Update (by the website records of browser usage), including IE8, and give the user a chance to install the latest version from that when first connecting to the internet. Companies would have to provide updates, hotfixes and patches through Windows Update, and that way the list is always upto date, people can hide a browser like they can any other update so it wont pop up, and Microsoft could ensure the browsers meet basic reliablity standards, so it wont cause a machine to crash etc.

1) Order should be randomized each time it is used.

2) New Browsers could be added with later Service Packs.

3) Updates again provided through Service Packs or are downloaded from the net using a text line browsers.

4) All the popular browsers included IE, Firefox, Safari and Chrome.

5) The European Union.

[fhpuqrgrpgvirzhpujbj]

Everyone should go to Google, search Opera, and click the X symbol next to the results related to the Browser. If enough people do it, Opera won't show up as a result when you search for it.

[mpg187]

Why would Opera be dissatisfied about MS dumping IE8 from Win7?

[Davo]

Hey Opera, this is how you gain marketshare:

1. Spread FUD about Internet Explorer to the point of where people think just having it means they have a virus

2. Conveniently release your browser which is much better (although to be fair IE6 was/is pretty crap)

3. When IE is vastly improved you can rest assured the damage has already been done

Next time follow the FireFox method and you'll be ok

[iamwhoiam]

Why would Opera be dissatisfied about MS dumping IE8 from Win7?

Because they want their own browser included instead of none. They want people to have a choice as long as they choose Opera.

[markwolfe Veteran]

Everyone should go to Google, search Opera, and click the X symbol next to the results related to the Browser. If enough people do it, Opera won't show up as a result when you search for it.

I'm pretty sure that just removes it from your results. ;)

[Owen W Veteran]

Computerworld - Opera Software, the Norwegian browser maker that sparked an antitrust investigation into Microsoft business practices in Europe, remains dissatisfied with its rival's move to dump IE8 from Windows 7.

Last week, Microsoft shared a bit of technical information about how it is stripping IE8 from Windows 7 to create the "E" editions for the European Union market.

"The only functional difference is that the Internet Explorer 8 component is not available," said Arik Cohen, a Microsoft program manager in a Q&A on the company's Windows blog. "This is the same component that your users can turn off in the 'Turn Windows features on and off' control panel in the Windows 7 RC build."

All other parts of IE will remain in the E editions, said Cohen, "since they are part of the Windows core."

The "Turn Windows features on and off" feature refers to the kill switch option Microsoft added to Windows 7 in March. Then, Microsoft managers confirmed that the new operating system would offer user settings for disabling, but not deleting, a host of bundled applications, including IE8. "If a feature is deselected, it is not available for use," said Jack Mayo, a program manager on the Windows team. "This means the files (binaries and data) are not loaded by the operating system and not available to users on the computer."

Files are not actually deleted from the PC, however, so users can later reactivate the disabled applications, said Mayo.

Flipping a switch to simply make IE8 unavailable is not enough for Opera, the browser builder that complained to EU regulators in late 2007. Its complaint led the government's antitrust agency to charge Microsoft in January with shielding IE from competition.

"Microsoft's minor technical tweak will not restore browser competition on the desktop," said Hakon Wium Lie, Opera's chief technology officer, in an e-mail today.

Opera has previously expressed dissatisfaction with Microsoft's decision to dump IE8 from Windows 7. In June, when Microsoft announced the E editions, Lie was skeptical, even though it was unclear at the time exactly what part of the browser would be removed. "The rendering engine will remain," Lie argued then. "Who knows what Windows Update would do? You could wake up in the morning and see all of IE8 there again."

Microsoft may have felt forced to leave parts of IE within Windows, since some of the OS's functionality, particularly Windows Update, likely depends on those components.

A month ago, Microsoft acknowledged that its unilateral move might not satisfy critics, including EU officials. "Our decision to only offer IE separately from Windows 7 in Europe cannot, of course, preclude the possibility of alternative approaches emerging through Commission processes," Dave Heiner, Microsoft's deputy counsel, said on June 11.

While the EU has not yet ruled -- Microsoft dropped an oral hearing slated for early June because of scheduling conflicts -- but Lie said that as far as Opera is concerned, turning off IE but leaving bits and pieces in Windows 7 isn't enough. "At Opera, we'd like to give users access to more browsers, not fewer," he said.

Opera wants the EU to order Microsoft to insert a ballot screen into Windows; the screen would offer users several browser choices that would then either be activated -- if all were pre-installed on the machine -- or downloaded and installed.

Regulators also have hinted that the ballot screen is its preferred solution. "A potential remedy ... and which would not require Microsoft to provide Windows to end-users without a browser, would be to allow consumers to choose from different web browsers presented to them through a 'ballot screen' in Windows," the European Commission said in a June 12 statement.

Nor has Microsoft publicly disclosed what, if any, incentives it's held out to European computer makers to continue to install IE8 on new PCs. Last month, Mozilla said that that was critical to figuring out whether Windows 7E would level the playing field. "It's impossible to evaluate what [Microsoft's proposal] means unless and until Microsoft describes -- completely and with specificity -- all the incentives and disincentives applicable to Windows OEMs," said John Lilly, Mozilla's CEO. "Without this, it's impossible to tell if Microsoft is giving something with one hand and taking it away with the other."

Microsoft's Cohen also claimed that the "vast majority" of applications work on Windows 7 E, including programs that use Windows' embedded browser components, including Trident, IE's layout engine.

Original Article

It it me or is Opera just sulking?

1) Order should be randomized each time it is used.

2) New Browsers could be added with later Service Packs.

3) Updates again provided through Service Packs or are downloaded from the net using a text line browsers.

4) All the popular browsers included IE, Firefox, Safari and Chrome.

5) The European Union.

Good call :)

[mpg187]

I'm pretty sure that just removes it from your results. ;)

It does remove it from yours, but it does affect the rankings.

I added a site to the list and it only appeared on mine at first, but after a while it appeared for everyone.

Hey Opera, this is how you gain marketshare:

1. Spread FUD about Internet Explorer to the point of where people think just having it means they have a virus

2. Conveniently release your browser which is much better (although to be fair IE6 was/is pretty crap)

3. When IE is vastly improved you can rest assured the damage has already been done

Next time follow the FireFox method and you'll be ok

IE6 was crap. In high school when I used the internet atleast a few times EVERYDAY I would have it hang. Like every now and then programs will "Stop Responding" but everyday, I then got FF portable and the problems went away.

It was really inconvieient to have the browser not respond and then when you click "End now" under end task it doesn't end, and by the time it does it would have been responsive anyways. Sucks at school I didn't have rights to kill the process or even use task manager...

[markwolfe Veteran]

It does remove it from yours, but it does affect the rankings.

I added a site to the list and it only appeared on mine at first, but after a while it appeared for everyone.

Placebo effect? Coincidence, perhaps?

From Google's support page for this feature:

Your rankings and comments are associated with your Google Account, so they affect only your search result rankings. A listing of your changes is visible on your 'SearchWiki notes' page, which is visible only to you.

and, to be honest, if they had common accounts remove items from their searches, it would be so abused by malicious persons. :ninja:

[BajiRav]

It does remove it from yours, but it does affect the rankings.

I added a site to the list and it only appeared on mine at first, but after a while it appeared for everyone.

IE6 was crap. In high school when I used the internet atleast a few times EVERYDAY I would have it hang. Like every now and then programs will "Stop Responding" but everyday, I then got FF portable and the problems went away.

It was really inconvieient to have the browser not respond and then when you click "End now" under end task it doesn't end, and by the time it does it would have been responsive anyways. Sucks at school I didn't have rights to kill the process or even use task manager...

IE6 wasn't crap when it was launched. It ate Mozilla/Opera for lunch and dinner. It is just that Microsoft decided to be a lazyass and discontinue work on it. Not saying I particularly like IE6 today, but it was outdated like 8 years ago :p

[kaelsmith]

as an opera user i am dissatisfied with opera complaints. that being said i really can't understand what they are trying to do because all their actions seems to be counter productive of getting market share.

this makes me think that MS ballot will lead to more complaints as others said. The only solution i can think of is having a link to more browsers on the first launch of ie8 that leads to wikipedia's page of what a web browser is and couple more tabs for list of browsers and comparisons of the browser pages on wikipedia. To at least get the general public to understand what a browser is and that there are alternatives there.

It also seems clear to me and most of the user here that opera doesn't suit people's needs. My experience with Browsers started with ie6 and i finally learned There is an alternative to things included in windows such as firefox in my high school years. I believe most people don't even know that there is alternative to these things. Because I heard about firefox i started looking for more browsers and ended up with opera and been using it ever since.

So if they had a better browser that suits the people who knew of alternatives they could have looked around and switched instead of staying with whatever browser they were using. And if they did enough marketing like FF did maybe some of the less tech savy people could have picked it up. Fact that firefox has considerable market share and opera browser has little, probably means it didn't work out.

on a side not i need to find a replacement opera that doesn't hang or lock up when i have 5 or more tabs open(FF) or isnt slow(IE). better yet figure out why opera works and FF and IE doesn't too well.