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Posted (edited)

Seeing as threads relating to gay issues, same-sex marriage and adoption by same-sex couples are posted here often, and they all result in the same, or very similar, discussion taking place, this will be the one and only official thread for discussion about gay issues from now on. Please post any news articles related to gay issues, including articles about same-sex marriage or adoption by same-sex couples, or any discussion pertaining to gay issues, in this thread.

It is hoped that this will solve the problem of the same points being brought up time and time again when they have already been discussed. One official thread will allow discussion to progress and the debate to consider all issues.

I must stress, the utmost maturity is expected. All opinions and views are certainly allowed and invited; however, personal attacks, flaming, trolling and flamebait will not be tolerated. Debates, even when they involve values which are held as passionately as these, can be friendly and I request such friendly debate takes place, please.

This is primarily a technology-focussed community, and the Real World Issues section is not for everyone. If you feel passionately about a view to the point where you cannot maintain a friendly stance and point out flaws in people's arguments without resorting to personal attacks, then perhaps you should refrain from posting in this area. Likewise, if you become offended easily, it may be best to give this thread a miss; opinions from both sides of the argument can offend.

Let the debate and discussion commence smile.gif

Edited by Eric

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Posted

Agreed. Mature posting in this thread needs to be the standard. Thanks for putting this together, Calum. (Y)

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Posted

Going to bring these over from the previously closed thread, as I feel some of this discussion is still valid

It is a very valid argument because most of the logic used to legalize homosexuality can be used to legalize incestuous marriage. Let's take the current definition of marriage: marriage is a union between:

- two

- consenting

- unrelated

- adults

- of opposite sex

The first argument invoked is discrimination towards couple of the same sex. If this is sufficient to remove the "opposite sex" criteria, then discrimination against couples of related persons is sufficient to remove the "unrelated" criteria.

Another argument is that not everyone who marries have children, and not everyone who have children marry. If that is enough, then objections against incestuous marriage based on the possibility of malformed children don't hold either (preventing related couples from marrying doesn't deter nor encourage them to have children).

Another argument is that marriage has not always been defined as between persons of the opposite sex. If that is enough, then we can point out that in different societies at different times, marriage has not always been between adults, or between consenting parties, and we can remove these criteria too.

Polygamy and bestiality aren't that far suddenly, huh?

Are you arguing that homosexual marriages were actually legal before 2000 in California? I find this extremely difficult to believe. Any examples to prove your point?

I suppose the "between man and woman only" was recently made explicit in response to the notion of homosexual marriage gaining ground. It was obvious in American society for centuries that marriage is only between man and woman, and this was not even worth mentioning in the law, even though it was absolutely there, IMPLICITLY, just like the law doesn't mention that it is between humans because that is also obvious to everyone (at least it still is this day).

Nothing more than pure conjecture, you haven't really proven anything

Said so much better than I :) You have hit every nail right on the head!!! It was implied....to deny this just weakens them further. Every argument provided to allow a "CHANGE" could be used for other "LIFESTYLES" Some argue against their own argument once it is applied to something other that homosexual.....

I have conviced many to allow other types of marriage outside of straight and gay only simply by using the very same arguments....but then the very same people deny the slippery slope :D

The slippery slope argument is a pile of crap, and you know it. If we legalise the smoking of Cannabis tomorrow, does that mean that it will shortly follow that murder will be legalised as well? There is no logic to the argument that events that are independant of each other follow logically in that one will be guaranteed to have an effect on the other. There are quiet a few people lobbying for gay marriage because the BGL community is pretty large, however incestuous relationships are extremely rare, the only case I can ever recall was one in Germany a few years back.

bigot - 4 dictionary results

big⋅ot  /ˈbɪgət/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [big-uht] Show IPA

–noun

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

you seem pretty intolerant of people who want to maintain societies traditions.

The difference is most of the posters are trying to be logical and stand up for human rights, you on the other hand are just masquerading in a flimsy attempt to put a positive face on your own bias and hatred. The reason people are intolerant of people like you is simple, it is because of unjustified hatred, something that I feel it is good to be intolerant of.

great.. good on you. but you have to accept the entire plurity of marriage.. also including incest and other things that you might find reprehensible...

Says who?

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Posted

The slippery slope argument is a pile of crap, and you know it. If we legalise the smoking of Cannabis tomorrow, does that mean that it will shortly follow that murder will be legalised as well? There is no logic to the argument that events that are independant of each other follow logically in that one will be guaranteed to have an effect on the other. There are quiet a few people lobbying for gay marriage because the BGL community is pretty large, however incestuous relationships are extremely rare, the only case I can ever recall was one in Germany a few years back.

Your analogy is infantile and asinine. The PROPER analogy would have been "If we legalize marijuana today, would cocaine be legalized next?". The answer is while it's unclear and think-tank'ish. It's possible. Setting precedent is always a problem for legal eagle types and those with a thinking and working mind. If you don't believe me, watch a decent episode of Law and Order to see the legal back and fourth that is involved in things like this. Setting precedent is scary and unappealing to a lot of people because it does open the door to a lot of things which are related.

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Your analogy is infantile and asinine. The PROPER analogy would have been "If we legalize marijuana today, would cocaine be legalized next?". The answer is while it's unclear and think-tank'ish. It's possible. Setting precedent is always a problem for legal eagle types and those with a thinking and working mind. If you don't believe me, watch a decent episode of Law and Order to see the legal back and fourth that is involved in things like this. Setting precedent is scary and unappealing to a lot of people because it does open the door to a lot of things which are related.

I can use whatever analogies I want, and your arrogant attitude makes me disinclined to converse with you any further on this matter.

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Posted

I'm waiting for the day that 3 people can legally marry together. It will happen one day.

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What I don't understand is this:

A lot of people who are against allowing homosexuals to marry in exactly the same way heterosexuals, say that if we allow gay marriage then people are going to want incestuous marriages allowed and polygamist marriages allowed, however, the same is the case for allowing heterosexual marriage, so why are these people not against heterosexual marriage? It is insanely hypocritical that these people are fine with heterosexual marriage when they promote such arguments. After all, it doesn't matter whether you allow homosexual marriage or not, people are still going to want polygamist marriages anyway because now we have allowed heterosexual marriage, everybody else wishes to be treated equal. Unless all of you haters protest against heterosexual marriage you are hypocrites and fighting a losing battle - it should be either no types of marriage or marriage for everybody, using your logic, however you cannot have heterosexual marriage but deny others of marriage.

The above was using your logic. Now, when using logic and morals, it actually makes sense to allow any couple who are legally able to have sex to marry. Obviously sex is not everything in a relationship but some types of sex is harmful to others - incestuous sex and paedophillic sex. Using the logic I have proposed there the only two types of couples which should be allowed to marry are heterosexuals and homosexuals :) How can anybody not agree with what I have proposed here? It makes sense. Homosexual sex does not harm anybody and homosexuals are allowed to be together and practice sex.

To be honest, I don't even have anything against polygamists. I don't see what would be so wrong with allowing them to marry?

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Setting precedent is scary and unappealing to a lot of people because it does open the door to a lot of things which are related.

So, because something "might" happen because of setting precedent gay people should just shut up and not fight to legalise 'gay marriage'?

Lots of things might not be in the world today because of what 'might' have happened if people in the past decided not to go ahead with it. Civil Unions in the UK were legalised in December 2005 all these 'related' things which 'might' happen clearly havent, its just FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) spread by anti-gay campaigners.

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I'm waiting for the day that 3 people can legally marry together. It will happen one day.

Is there really anything wrong with that? They are 3 people in love with each other. As long as each person in the relationship can legally have sex with the other, what is wrong with allowing them to marry, just like we allow couples to marry? :) If it doesn't harm anybody else, it should not be discriminated against and that goes for homosexual marriage as well.

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Posted

Is there really anything wrong with that? They are 3 people in love with each other. As long as each person in the relationship can legally have sex with the other, what is wrong with allowing them to marry, just like we allow couples to marry? :) If it doesn't harm anybody else, it should not be discriminated against and that goes for homosexual marriage as well.

Agreed, the only ones doing harm here are those against gay marriage. Not all of em, Ive actually come to respect Fresh's position even though i disagree with it. But some like seta, who just spew nonsense, are the ones who do ALL the harm, as their arguements are based on misinformation and hatred .

That being said, I have to ask two questions.

To those against...Think really hard, how does gay marriage by itself hurt anyone. Marriage itself is nothing great as heterosexuals have failed miserably with the 60% divorce rate. I still have not seen a logical reason why its bad, other than they the usual nonsense predicts about how itll lead to incest etc. Every change in our society can lead to things, it doesnt mean change is bad. Conservatives would love to go back to the middle ages where everyone was exactly the same, fell into line, and it was a horrible life back then and it would be again if they got everything they wanted now.

And to gays/those wanting gay marriage. Why do you want it, its a RELIGIOUS ceremony. The popular mainstream religions are against it. Why take part in that crap, why give these businesses(churches) money...

Im gay, and i just refuse to get married..ever. Id be happen with common law/civil union, and a hosted party to celebrate. Why marriage? Its got a 60% failure rate and most ppl who are married hate it anyhow, i rarely come across happy married couples. That and, if you went for civil unions in the US, then when the churches pull out support in that region, and try to fight it, they prove just what scum they are once and for all just like the churches are in Washington. Itll show that their true motivation is hate, and not self defense, like so many here like to pretend.

Imo, separation of church n state should be enforced fully, remove marriage altogether from the constitution. Make civil unions apply to both gays and straights, and then marriage itself can be handled by churches and have no effect at all on the legal part of it.

I think the last two paragraphs would lead to a much quicker resolution than anything else. If anyones learned anything from these forum threads, the haters on here will NEVER learn. They will die with that hatred deep in their hearts and let them, they deserve to be bad people till the end. To the rest of us, ignore and forget them, let them play whatever cards and word games theyd like to lie to people and spread the hate, and just focus on progress. Doing the All or nothing(marriage or no deal) thing wont help those who are neutral or undecided come to your cause, itll drive them further into the arms of the haters because they're afraid and thats what the haters feed off of.

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Posted

unbelievable that people are still talking about this...

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Posted

Until its legalised or illegalised all over the world 100% then people will talk about it.

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Truth is that gay marriage does not affect anyone but the couple marrying, so anyone that is against homosexual marriage is either not married or just some poor married lump that doesn't get any action.

Maybe you don't like it, but its the truth.

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^^^^ We may as well end the thread after that insightful post, tbf.

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And to gays/those wanting gay marriage. Why do you want it, its a RELIGIOUS ceremony. The popular mainstream religions are against it. Why take part in that crap, why give these businesses(churches) money...

Im gay, and i just refuse to get married..ever. Id be happen with common law/civil union, and a hosted party to celebrate. Why marriage? Its got a 60% failure rate and most ppl who are married hate it anyhow, i rarely come across happy married couples. That and, if you went for civil unions in the US, then when the churches pull out support in that region, and try to fight it, they prove just what scum they are once and for all just like the churches are in Washington. Itll show that their true motivation is hate, and not self defense, like so many here like to pretend.

Imo, separation of church n state should be enforced fully, remove marriage altogether from the constitution. Make civil unions apply to both gays and straights, and then marriage itself can be handled by churches and have no effect at all on the legal part of it.

I agree completely with you.

(I wanted to react to this thread only once, but suddenly saw someone posting a sensible reply.)

In religious books, it clearly states that behaving gay is forbidden. So I have nothing against religious people who say that a religious marriage can

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And to gays/those wanting gay marriage. Why do you want it, its a RELIGIOUS ceremony. The popular mainstream religions are against it. Why take part in that crap, why give these businesses(churches) money...

My guess would be they just want the same status as other couples, for their marriage to be accepted as a marriage. Also, not all marriages are religious affairs, there are always registry offices :p

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And to gays/those wanting gay marriage. Why do you want it, its a RELIGIOUS ceremony. The popular mainstream religions are against it. Why take part in that crap, why give these businesses(churches) money...

Im gay, and i just refuse to get married..ever. Id be happen with common law/civil union, and a hosted party to celebrate. Why marriage? Its got a 60% failure rate and most ppl who are married hate it anyhow, i rarely come across happy married couples. That and, if you went for civil unions in the US, then when the churches pull out support in that region, and try to fight it, they prove just what scum they are once and for all just like the churches are in Washington. Itll show that their true motivation is hate, and not self defense, like so many here like to pretend.

It's more about equal rights. It's not about the meaning or anything. While not gay, and this has no effect on me either way it turns out, it has an effect on those I know and those I don't. I am all for everyone getting a fair chance. The world is not fair, but we as humans have unbelievable power to make it fair. The sad truth is most people chose to not do so.

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I agree completely with you.

(I wanted to react to this thread only once, but suddenly saw someone posting a sensible reply.)

In religious books, it clearly states that behaving gay is forbidden. So I have nothing against religious people who say that a religious marriage can’t be between two people of same gender.

However all states should have the possibility to marry by states law. For the state, taxes, healthcare etc, there should not be any difference between couples of same sex or different sex. And it is hideous that people try to enforce their own religious rules on non-religious people… No one tells a Christian or Muslim to take part in a gay marriage... why do ‘you’ tell others to NOT do it? The loving-caring-and-being- good-towards-others-religious-people are ruining other people’s lives, by physically harming harming them, by withholding them right etc, while no gay man/woman would cause anyone any harm if they were to be treated the same… It could just be that for that, a larger fraction of gay people will go to heaven than non-gay people……. God was the one who was supposed to do the judging work, right?

I agree completely with everything you just said.

In religious books it also says it is ok to stone people to death, have slaves and many more horrible things. If you want people doing that to you is fine, but not all of us believe in fairy tales. With that in mind, who told you that marriage is a religious thing? Check it out. Over time it has changed many times and sadly people now think it came from the fairy tale books.

So if you agree with ignorance fine, but I don't.

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Is there really anything wrong with that?

Nope.

Let's expand on the idea as long as it doesn't harm anyone.... I also want it to be legal for 2 gay incestuous twin men to marry and then to artificially inseminate a 15-year-old girl. They can raise the child together and she can marry them also. No harm done.

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Nope.

Let's expand on the idea as long as it doesn't harm anyone.... I also want it to be legal for 2 gay incestuous twin men to marry and then to artificially inseminate a 15-year-old girl. They can raise the child together and she can marry them also. No harm done.

15 year-old-girl... underage... no harm done? :rolleyes:

Stop trying to use scare tactics, those only work on ignorant people and they are only used when running out of valid arguments.

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Nope.

Let's expand on the idea as long as it doesn't harm anyone.... I also want it to be legal for 2 gay incestuous twin men to marry and then to artificially inseminate a 15-year-old girl. They can raise the child together and she can marry them also. No harm done.

Ahh, I mis-read this at first.

Reading it back, lunamonkey, you do realise that it would be impossible to allow people to marry but disallow them to have sex, don't you? It just wouldn't work. You do realise that sexual relations between family members and between adults and children usually harms people greatly don't you? Yes, marriage is not all about sex, but allowing these people to marry would encourage sexual relations between them. It just would not be right to allow them to marry for those reasons.

lunamonkey, you do realise that homosexuality is different to incest and paedophilia don't you? If you think it isn't then why are you not against heterosexuals as well? You are a hypocrite if you are against homosexuals but not heterosexuals when using reasons such as this, correct?

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Should gays get the same drivers license as straights who drive? The driving laws never said anything specific about gays.....

We could throw all these stupid arguments around all the time and get no where. It is no good in throwing out what ifs and other tales of what could be , when if we think like that, anything is almost possible. What you need to do is take actual facts at hand, not throw stuff that has nothing to do with it in, and think based on that.

Should gays have to file a separate tax return? What ever made them a 2nd class citizen?

So much bickering over something that has no effect on anyone, yet no one puts up this much of a fuss when our own government illegally listens to our phone calls and spies on our every day life, something that is so much more harmful.

All men are created equal, until that man touches another man, then they become a negative... or something like that right?

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I'm not against gay marriage. I'd rather people in a relationship were committed and if they wish to do so, get married together.

osmel?.. they didn't have sex with her, and you can get married at 16. By the time the baby has been born, she can marry.

My point is, if people aren't having kids together, then why not open it up to consenting related couples and allow incestuous. marriage?

I don't believe they would have sex with a girl if they are gay. They wouldn't be gay then... :/

There's no pedo action going on and I'm not saying there was.

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15 year-old-girl... underage... no harm done? :rolleyes:

Stop trying to use scare tactics, those only work on ignorant people and they are only used when running out of valid arguments.

Not only that but if these people equate homosexuality to incest and paedophilia then they must feel the same about heterosexuality or they are very much hypocrites ;) They cannot win with such arguments because if they really feel that allowing gay marriage will open the doors for all types of marriage to be allowed then they need to feel the same about heterosexual marriage in order for their arguments to hold any water.

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Not only that but if these people equate homosexuality to incest and paedophilia then they must feel the same about heterosexuality or they are very much hypocrites ;) They cannot win with such arguments because if they really feel that allowing gay marriage will open the doors for all types of marriage to be allowed then they need to feel the same about heterosexual marriage in order for their arguments to hold any water.

Hypocrites most people are. This is all so 1950's. Soon we will have separate schools, drinking fountains, and areas to live in. It will be grand i tell you, grand!!!

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