US used never-seen-before stealth choppers for Osama raid

[episode]

considering it is a top secret craft, if you friend had built a BH that looks like that, he wouldn't be able to tell you anyway.

He would.

That it was modified off site is much more likely. Or that it was never a BlackHawk, but something else.

[Ryoken]

I'd guess a Chinook or heavy lift chopper going along kind of defeats the purpose of a stealth chopper.

They only need that for the initial surprise.. Once they started shooting they could bring in just about anything that could have been trailing back..

[ylcard]

How is "stealh" defined here ? Not alerting the humans of their presence ? If so, then it's not much of a stealth chopper, as that dude that blogged/tweeted about the whole thing had heard it.

[Frylock86]

I bet the military has a bunch of secret stuff (and probably has had for years) that we can only dream about.

:whistle:

[articuno1au]

If only :p

[HawkMan]

How is "stealh" defined here ? Not alerting the humans of their presence ? If so, then it's not much of a stealth chopper, as that dude that blogged/tweeted about the whole thing had heard it.

Actually the neighbours reported that they didn't hear the helicopter untill it was right above them. which as far as helicopters go si pretty damn stealthy on the sound front. especially for something int he size class (and probably built off of) of a BlackHawk.

But since it was used to enter another country without asking first, Radar stealth is probably more important in the big picture.

[ylcard]

Actually the neighbours reported that they didn't hear the helicopter untill it was right above them. which as far as helicopters go si pretty damn stealthy on the sound front. especially for something int he size class (and probably built off of) of a BlackHawk.

But since it was used to enter another country without asking first, Radar stealth is probably more important in the big picture.

Haven't thought that through :p

The radar bit makes more sense than the noise-level when talking about military operations in foreign countries.

Everytime I was near a chopper in the army I couldn't stand the noise, even when it's way up there it makes so much noise that I could barely hear those near me, sort of like when a truck/bus goes right near you :)

So I guess 'stealth" is a bit streching it, but it seems that it's much quieter than the regular choppers.

[V9s]

How is "stealh" defined here ? Not alerting the humans of their presence ? If so, then it's not much of a stealth chopper, as that dude that blogged/tweeted about the whole thing had heard it.

:laugh:

Stealth means evading radar.

[neufuse Veteran]

I always thought stealth meant radar signatures where diminished, not its quite, you know how loud the Stealth bomber and fighter are?

[majortom1981]

Stealth means radar detection .Abc news though had the sound from a regular version and the sound from one of these (this stealth chopper has actually been demonstrated before) and its much quieter.

[ToneKnee]

There was a video not long ago with a helicopter with modified rotor blades which had special fins on the end, it was stupidly quiet, at least, compared to it's original noise levels. If the same rotor blades were used with stealth material, then it's definitely something new. Also, just because they put some stealth parts doesn't mean it's stealth, I'm pretty sure the design has to be hard ridged edges/flat panels for it to be very effective. A Blackhawk is too round, so if it was something similar, then chances are, it was a new kind of Blackhawk with the designs similar to this:

See what I mean about the flat planels and hard edges? It's not a cosmetic thing, it's quite vital.

[Un4given]

Everytime I was near a chopper in the army I couldn't stand the noise, even when it's way up there it makes so much noise that I could barely hear those near me, sort of like when a truck/bus goes right near you :)

So I guess 'stealth" is a bit streching it, but it seems that it's much quieter than the regular choppers.

I love the sounds of helicopters. I especially love standing under the blades while they are spinning up on the flight deck! Love my job too much lol.

[neufuse Veteran]

man when they said blew up the helicopter they really meant it, this is what was left of it inside the walls....

[Growled Member]

Wow, there's nothing there but pieces. :D

[neufuse Veteran]

Wow, there's nothing there but pieces. :D

they have pretty good demo skills... minus the piece they couldn't get outside the wall

[ylcard]

:laugh:

Stealth means evading radar.

Well yeah :)

But all it takes is one person to hear said chopper and it wouldn't matter if it's on a radar or not, right ?

[xendrome]

I love the sounds of helicopters. I especially love standing under the blades while they are spinning up on the flight deck! Love my job too much lol.

It's all good unless it's an MH-53 and you are 50 feet out.. the down force wash is 100mph +

[V9s]

Well yeah :)

But all it takes is one person to hear said chopper and it wouldn't matter if it's on a radar or not, right ?

It would. You need a good radar signature to target the helicopter with missiles (SAM or A2A missiles).

[xendrome]

Well yeah :)

But all it takes is one person to hear said chopper and it wouldn't matter if it's on a radar or not, right ?

But by the time you actually hear it, your reaction time is cut to only a minute or two.. so it's too late to react and attempt any type of mounted/organized defense...

[Southern Patriot]

they have pretty good demo skills... minus the piece they couldn't get outside the wall

Yes, these are Navy SEALs we are talking about here. If they had the time, you wouldn't even have seen that much of it, it would have looked like someone blew up a few hundred garbage bags full of soda cans. The fact that even that much remained is evidence that they were in a hurry to get the hell out of there.

[Soulsiphon]

Well yeah :)

But all it takes is one person to hear said chopper and it wouldn't matter if it's on a radar or not, right ?

That one guy actually did hear the choppers from his place not far away - the Twitter guy there in Abottabad. Kinda funny, he talks about the sound of it hovering overhead - that was probably when it was dropping spec ops into the compound, then later in he tweets about the explosions and a friend calling about a helicopter crash that killed a family but they were house to house'n for the pilot :)

That explosion he heard was apparently the JSOC crew lighting up that incapacitated bird.

Pretty crazy him tweeting about swatting the helicopter outside with his swatter then being worried when he heard the explosion and putting his swatter away.

I don't think Pakistan knew anything about this tbh and the house-to-house after the 'crash' was most likely police/military/ISI running around thinking it really was just a chopper crash, and an American one at that.

[V9s]

I don't think Pakistan knew anything about this tbh and the house-to-house after the 'crash' was most likely police/military/ISI running around thinking it really was just a chopper crash, and an American one at that.

No, they were going door to door to confiscate the phone/camera memory cards of residents that were filming the whole operation.

[V9s]

Bin Laden killing: What did Pakistan know?

Did Pakistani intelligence really know nothing about Osama Bin Laden's whereabouts until the US raid that killed him in Abbottabad on Sunday night? How did US helicopters fly so deep into Pakistani airspace without apparently being detected? The BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan in Islamabad talks to intelligence officials to find out more.

"The first we knew they were coming was after they had crossed the Durand line," Ayaz says, referring to the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Ayaz - not his real name - works for Pakistani intelligence. He spoke to me a few days after the killing of Osama Bin Laden by US Navy Seals in north-west Pakistan.

"There were four helicopters coming in very low and the protocols set in. Jets were being scrambled, but they were called back in as the US then informed the High Command.

"They gave us a grid and told us that they were going there after "a high-value" target. There are certain protocols when that happens - we take care of the outer security, while they go in and do their work.

"We certainly didn't know who exactly was in there."

Ayaz dismisses claims that the Americans jammed Pakistan's radars.

"These type of helicopters - if they fly really low - have no real signature. But they can be sighted visually - which they were - and this led to the alert."

Ayaz said that Pakistani officials believed that the Americans were going to raid a hideout in the mountains near Abbottabad.

"We didn't think it was going to be right in the city."

That is something that everybody has focused on - how Osama Bin Laden could have been right under the noses of the intelligence agencies, as the authorities claim, without their knowledge.

Pakistani security officials say it was an intelligence failure - but many people find that hard to believe.

The intelligence officials I spoke to thought the compound a poor place to hide someone.

"If he was living there, it wasn't for very long," says Mahmud, another security operative.

"Anybody who has tracked Osama knows that he would never stay in one place for more than a few weeks.

"That was the cornerstone of his security - eventually people talk and information about him would get out."

Ayaz agrees - and then points out that an even bigger issue was the choice of hiding place.

"Just look at the house - it sticks out like a sore thumb from a mile off. You've been to Abbottabad - you know how these small towns are.

"Everybody knows everything about everybody, and secretive people are routinely investigated, especially by the police.

"If anybody wants to know about the house, they should just ask the local thana [police station]."

In addition, if Osama was with the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), this was the last place anybody would put him in, Ayaz argues.

"If you wanted to keep him in an urban area - we have much better protected and discreet safe houses than these.

"Theoretically speaking, if the ISI had Osama and he was being kept here, the officer responsible should be court-martialled."

'Conspicuous place'

Both men, and other intelligence and security officials, also point out there are many discrepancies in the American version of how Bin Laden was located.

"They say he was living here for such a long time - then he must have been to local hospitals," says Ayaz.

"He was not a very well man - he had kidney problems and other medical issues.

"You figure it out yourself - if he was living here for so long some news would have been filtered out."

Then there is the break in pattern. All intelligence officials say Osama Bin Laden would never wander so far from the Afghan border.

This is corroborated by senior members of a leading Taliban faction, the Haqqani network - one of whom says he met Bin Laden near the town of Chitral two months ago.

Confirming the al-Qaeda leader was dead, he said he was puzzled that he had gone as far as Abbottabad.

There is also a general consensus that Osama Bin Laden preferred living in rural Pashtun and Afghan communities - although reports of him living in cities have surfaced from time to time.

While the last official sighting of him was in the Tora Bora mountains in eastern Afghanistan in 2001, this correspondent has spoken to people who say they saw Bin Laden in Waziristan in Pakistan's tribal areas in 2004-2005.

There had been no confirmed sighting since then, until the Haqqani network member spoke after he was killed.

"For someone who was so careful about his whereabouts, why would he decide to come to such a conspicuous place?" Mahmud asks.

"There could only be one outcome of such a situation - that he would be cornered and shot."

Ayaz says he has "a strong feeling... the Americans had someone inside or in contact with the people in the compound guiding them".

"Fine, they were very good operationally - but who told them he was there and would stay?

"So if Osama was indeed killed in Abbottabad, the main share of the credit goes to this person. Without him, nothing would have been possible."

It is impossible to confirm his hunch but it is an intriguing thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13296709

[Aokromes]

Stealth means radar detection .

Sorry but no:

Stealth aircraft are aircraft that use stealth technology[1] to avoid detection by employing a combination of features to interfere with radar as well as reduce visibility in the infrared,[2] visual, audio, and radio frequency (RF) spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_aircraft

[HawkMan]

There was a video not long ago with a helicopter with modified rotor blades which had special fins on the end, it was stupidly quiet, at least, compared to it's original noise levels. If the same rotor blades were used with stealth material, then it's definitely something new. Also, just because they put some stealth parts doesn't mean it's stealth, I'm pretty sure the design has to be hard ridged edges/flat panels for it to be very effective. A Blackhawk is too round, so if it was something similar, then chances are, it was a new kind of Blackhawk with the designs similar to this:

See what I mean about the flat planels and hard edges? It's not a cosmetic thing, it's quite vital.

Actually the stealth of the F117 is outdated. stealth today doesn't rely on flat angular panels, but rather curves, but with hard edges along main parts and such, then any hatches and such have the angles like you see in that pic. That pic is actually a blackhawk fitted with a stealth body. or the Design concept of a BlackHawk where the outer body shell has been changed into a stealthy one and the rotors replaced with stealth type whisper rotors.