Fubar Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Moderation on this site has been broken for years. I really don't know any other site that has the mod issues that this site has. Even 4chan, yes they have mods, doesn't have constant threads about mod problems. You would think after a few years they would get better but it doesn't. It never has. THey addd new mods, and more mods, but still the same problem. Mods tend to act like ass holes here. They rarely ask a persons intent or what they were trying to convey, they just read then warn, or read then ban. They rarely ask the user what they MEANT in a post, because they don't care. That why I don't ever chat with mods on this site but still sub'd for 2 or 3 years. I thought the mods were junk but I liked the forum chat/topics. Lately even topics have been becoming less and less interesting. I spend maybe 20% of the time I used to here anymore. This isnt about the forum moderation, this is about the IRC moderation if you had actually bothered to read the title, the two are separatly moderated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrCheese Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 bleh. This is getting old now. Really old. I think users just need a way to actually know when they are formally warned, as opposed to the way it is currently, i.e formal warns are slapped on people yet aren't really told or given any indication of that. Also, IRC needs the concept of a informal warning, i.e a simple "Enough" in pm or in channel. if users continue to break that then issue a formal warning. Not straight onto a formal warning smacked on their record. Users should be able to see these warnings and they should expire over time as users being permabanned for stuff they did years ago is just stupid. You already do this on the forum so why not the IRC! However the warns should not be linked with a users forum account/warn system, As I've said billions of times, IRC is a different beast than the forum, convo is much more "free flowing" and emotions easier to fray. Bans should be able to be appealed upwards without staff closing ranks and always automatically (so it seems anyway) agreeing with the staffer who issued the ban. It's frustrating to be told to take it to a higher up, only for them to stonewall and tow the party line instantly. At present it seems the users who were banned when all this started managed to rack up a few warnings in just a few minutes yet to their and our knowledge they had not a single peep from the moderation staff aside from "ban you all tbh" and "gets the /ban * command ready" (From developers) This is the entire crux of the matter and all of this pointless edrama could have been avoided had the bans not been out of the blue. If the system doesn't change then all of this BS will just appear again in a few years, maybe not with the users in the channel now, but still. I seem to recall it happening a few years ago when a certain chat mod was removed from staff for saying the things we're saying now, the same argument was had then and ignored, now it's cropped up again. Developers run the IRC server, and as such, have always been granted the permission to step in where needed. If that's the case, then you may as change your member group from "Developer" to "Administrator" It makes no sense for you to be "hired" as a dev and then given the ability to use full moderation powers equal to that of a full blown admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapixels Veteran Posted May 10, 2011 Veteran Share Posted May 10, 2011 I think users just need a way to actually know when they are formally warned, as opposed to the way it is currently, i.e formal warns are slapped on people yet aren't really told or given any indication of that. Also, IRC needs the concept of a informal warning, i.e a simple "Enough" in pm or in channel. if users continue to break that then issue a formal warning. Not straight onto a formal warning smacked on their record. Users should be able to see these warnings and they should expire over time as users being permabanned for stuff they did years ago is just stupid. You already do this on the forum so why not the IRC! However the warns should not be linked with a users forum account/warn system, As I've said billions of times, IRC is a different beast than the forum, convo is much more "free flowing" and emotions easier to fray. "Enough" almost never works. However, it is tried time and again when issues come up. Bans should be able to be appealed upwards without staff closing ranks and always automatically (so it seems anyway) agreeing with the staffer who issued the ban. It's frustrating to be told to take it to a higher up, only for them to stonewall and tow the party line instantly. No matter what we say, you're not going to believe that supervisors and admins actually do look over the issues brought to them. We have had bans and warns overturned after the fact. But it never seems to be enough. Without opening our staff forum up to be viewed by members, nobody will ever believe this. At present it seems the users who were banned when all this started managed to rack up a few warnings in just a few minutes yet to their and our knowledge they had not a single peep from the moderation staff aside from "ban you all tbh" and "gets the /ban * command ready" (From developers) This is the entire crux of the matter and all of this pointless edrama could have been avoided had the bans not been out of the blue. They were not out of the blue. Regardless of what you may have been told by these members, they had several run-ins with us, had been given several warnings and temp bans, and had several chances to stop their behavior. Disagreeing with our rules does not permit them to continue breaking them. The rules clearly state that if we ask for a topic to be dropped, it is dropped. This rule (and others, but this specifically) was not followed, time and again. They showed clearly they did not care to listen to our rules or our moderation staff, and it was all just some kind of joke to them. We're here as volunteers. I don't think any of us actually like having to moderate. None of us take pleasure in issuing warnings or bans. But we do it because we want this community to be friendly to all. I don't understand why that's such an issue. I can think of several cases where the members in question answered new IRC visitors' questions with a bunch of trollish replies, doing nothing to help, and causing those members to leave, likely with a very poor taste in their mouths. And this is what you guys consider "better"? I hardly think so. IRC may be less active than it was, but over time it will go back to normal, hopefully with a more friendly attitude. That is our only goal. Be nice, don't cause problems, and there won't be an issue. I don't see what's so hard about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrCheese Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 "Enough" almost never works. However, it is tried time and again when issues come up. eh, then maybe try banning the users who don't stop after the informal warning for say 10/20 minutes or a few hours. Not days. It lets them cool down and come back in a clearer mindset. No +m'ing the entire channel is not the same, that just annoys everyone. They were not out of the blue. Regardless of what you may have been told by these members, they had several run-ins with us, had been given several warnings and temp bans None of them knew they were anywhere near the limit on the night they were temp banned. None of them had access to their warning history. I may even have warnings on my account but I'll be damned if I know what they are as I can't see them anywhere. They WERE out of the blue as nothing at the time was in any way related to trolling. No one was being trolled, no one was being offended or insulted. No one was told "enough" to drop the conversation or change topic. Regardless you and I clearly seem to have a differing opinion on this so I will agree to disagree. I'm bored of arguing the same argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapixels Veteran Posted May 10, 2011 Veteran Share Posted May 10, 2011 None of them knew they were anywhere near the limit on the night they were temp banned. None of them had access to their warning history. I may even have warnings on my account but I'll be damned if I know what they are as I can't see them anywhere. They WERE out of the blue as nothing at the time was in any way related to trolling. No one was being trolled, no one was being offended or insulted. No one was told "enough" to drop the conversation or change topic. Regardless you and I clearly seem to have a differing opinion on this so I will agree to disagree. I'm bored of arguing the same argument. We've already covered this though. The thread discussing said members was started a full two weeks before they were actually banned. We took a long time to talk about it and come to a conclusion on how to handle it. In that way, it did not relate to anything they were doing at the time the bans were actually handed out. It may have been "out of the blue" in that respect, but it certainly wasn't something we randomly decided to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fubar Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 We've already covered this though. The thread discussing said members was started a full two weeks before they were actually banned. We took a long time to talk about it and come to a conclusion on how to handle it. In that way, it did not relate to anything they were doing at the time the bans were actually handed out. It may have been "out of the blue" in that respect, but it certainly wasn't something we randomly decided to do. Ahahahah pull the other one gigga, you where certainly NOT discussing it two weeks before hand that is just out right lying and you know it... they didnt even get Perma banned until they posted the logs of A certain staff member, when he went into the other IRC server and called everyone including staff and ex staff members retards. when they posted the logs of this to neobond they got perma banned from both the Forum and IRC.... What you where discussing two weeks before hand was indeed cracking down on the trolling if you can call it that, the actual 10 day bans where a result of this even though they where handed out about 10 mins after the verbal warning they got given which is just not consistent modding what so ever, like I have stated before Once Laura gave them a Verbal warning they stopped, thats where it should have ended.... The Perma bans where indeed done just out of the blue (hence why one of the forum perma bans has been lifted) you lot decided to blame all three for the fake twitter account and neowin **** take site with no proof and when one of your own staff members clearly got caught out trolling other irc servers something had to be done.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapixels Veteran Posted May 10, 2011 Veteran Share Posted May 10, 2011 You can believe what you will, but I'm not a liar. The thread Neobond posted an image of earlier here has a starting timestamp of "Posted 29 March 2011 - 18:21" which is a full two weeks worth of discussion up to the day they were banned. Obviously you will never believe that, perhaps, we're not as evil as you think. I can't change your mind. All I can do is try to make Neowin a more friendly place for people to hang out and talk, and I think we have succeeded in that objective. I still don't understand why you hang out here when you hate it so much, though. It boggles the mind. And it's funny: even after we do revisit one of our decisions, like you have insisted we should do this entire time, you somehow throw it back at us as though it's something bad "(hence why one of the forum perma bans has been lifted)". Clearly you cannot be reasoned with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fubar Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 You can believe what you will, but I'm not a liar. The thread Neobond posted an image of earlier here has a starting timestamp of "Posted 29 March 2011 - 18:21" which is a full two weeks worth of discussion up to the day they were banned. Obviously you will never believe that, perhaps, we're not as evil as you think. I can't change your mind. All I can do is try to make Neowin a more friendly place for people to hang out and talk, and I think we have succeeded in that objective. I still don't understand why you hang out here when you hate it so much, though. It boggles the mind. And it's funny: even after we do revisit one of our decisions, like you have insisted we should do this entire time, you somehow throw it back at us as though it's something bad "(hence why one of the forum perma bans has been lifted)". Clearly you cannot be reasoned with. Hate IRC and the site? where on earth did I say that? seems to be the standard response when ever some one gives feed back to the staff, the way all the staff are making out that the three in question are the people who are ruining the chatroom is laughable tbh.. the room has declined in activity since them three where banned and you know it not just because they where the three main chatters but because people don't know what they can do in that chatroom because Friendly Banter between people has been mistaken for trolling and you clearly know it, may I remind you that even before the three got banned people where getting bollocked by messing around, this isnt a new problem is been going on for months, if you think the chatroom is better for it then your entitled to that but I can tell you now that chat room is only mainly Active when the staff are talking, people have stopped going to the chatroom because of the way staff themselfs have been so putting the Entire down fall of the chatroom on three users is simply stupid, you make it sound more personal than it actually is gigga Not once has a member of staff said you know what there is a major problem with the way IRC run atm and it needs a serious rethink on how to make everyone happy, some users give you feed back and it falls on deaf ears, there is no definition of trolling what so ever in that room as being called a trolled can be from some one simply not agreeing with another persons point of view, Friendly banter between two friends that have known each other for years can also be classed as trolling, since I myself got a telling off for messing around with Drcheese and called him a "Cont" fair enough it wasnt a ban or an actual warning but being told off for messing around with some one I've known for years just doesnt sit right in IRC, users have been telling staff for months and months that IRC needs to be far more layed back than it is, Only just recently have actual IRC modding staff been appointed which is all well and good but there i still no clear direction given. If i hated the site and IRC i would have simply left bv now after 10 years, to say i hate both is simply retarded having this lengthy discussion that seems to be going round in circles actually shows the opposite, i care for the site and i care for the IRC chat room since i have made some fantastic mates from both in the last ten years, please dont treat me like a fool and say otherwise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveLegg Developer Posted May 10, 2011 Developer Share Posted May 10, 2011 ...if you think the chatroom is better for it then your entitled to that but I can tell you now that chat room is only mainly Active when the staff are talking, people have stopped going to the chatroom because of the way staff themselfs have been so putting the Entire down fall of the chatroom on three users is simply stupid I do think its better to be honest, as the environment is now far more welcoming to new users, whereas previously, they've been trolled out of the channel. We saw exactly the same effect when we banned a few prominent members from Gamers Hangout a few months back, activity there dropped a lot, but given time, it picked back up, and we've had nowhere near the number of issues there that we used to. We had a thread going about issues in that area almost constantly, and I haven't seen one now for a long long time. Activity will return, it will just take time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven P. Administrators Posted May 10, 2011 Administrators Share Posted May 10, 2011 It's also fair to say there will also always be inconsistencies in moderation due to the simple fact our staff all come from different countries and age groups, where possible these inconsistencies can be reported and dealt with in hindsight after a more formal staff discussion (which happens quite frequently), As people have already pointed out, the IRC side of Neowin is a lot more flowing and possibly harder to moderate than the forums, and that's probably half the problem too. As a side note, warnings for May are zero and only six for April and this appears to be a trend as well. To say that we're "heavy handed" doesn't add up, because the amount of (logged) warns against any member from IRC are far less than what staff have to deal with on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagosilva29 Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Discussion was created 30th of March in our staff forum. As you can see, we clearly had (and still have) a lengthy discussion over it.Edit request. What the ****? Why was I in discussion if I was not even around when everything started? Are you people insane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinetix63 Veteran Posted May 10, 2011 Veteran Share Posted May 10, 2011 What the ****? Why was I in discussion if I was not even around when everything started? Are you people insane? I'll PM you as it's a perfectly valid question, but not one I'd rather answer in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 So much drama over a chat room. Get it together guys jeez. :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swuzzlebum Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Everyone needs to calm the **** down. You're totally harshing my mellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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