Another developer says “no thanks” to Windows 8

The launch date of Windows 8 is fast approaching, and the race is on to develop apps and games for the new platform. With just over two months to go, and around 650 apps currently in the Windows Store, Microsoft and the developer community alike have plenty of work to do to ensure that users have a compelling selection of software at launch.

But not all developers are happy about the prospect of Windows 8. The Windows Store, in particular, has not gone down well with some developers, who don’t like the idea of their software being subject to Microsoft approval before it gets into consumers’ hands. Gabe Newell, co-founder of Valve, for example, recently referred to Windows 8 as a “catastrophe for everyone in the PC space”, a couple of weeks before the company confirmed that its Steam distribution platform will shortly expand to offer non-gaming software.

Today, another developer added their disapproving voice to those of Newell and others. UK independent developer Introversion Software – once self-styled as ‘the last of the bedroom programmers’ – seems to share Newell’s views. As The Next Web reports, Introversion’s lead designer and developer, Chris Delay, stated:

If Microsoft manage to close Windows and get to the point where every app has to be approved and certified by them, it’s game over for a lot of indies, including Introversion.”

Delay also added his personal impressions of the new OS:

I’m skipping Windows 8 until Microsoft include an option to use the Windows 7 start menu, and reduce the metro interface to a program [like the] Control Panel. It’s like someone at Microsoft took their upcoming tablet interface designed for 7 inch touch sensitive devices, and insisted we’d want the same thing on our 24 inch monitors with mice and keyboards. No thank you Microsoft.”

Not a fan then.

But in spite of the sentiments that some developers feel towards Windows 8, one can't help but wonder how many of them will actually ignore the OS in practice. Whatever one's opinions might be on it, there's no doubt that millions upon millions of users will own Windows 8 devices around the world - and that's surely too huge a market to ignore.

Source: The Next Web

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iMHO, Windows 8 seems to run okay. I've downloaded the final RTM release as of 8/21/2012. All of my apps and devices seem to install and run okay. Functionality is awkward but okay.

I don't like that the Media Center Functionality is a "paid add-on"
I don't like that there isn't an option to enable the Windows 7 Start menu when at the desktop.
I don't like that there isn't a way to boot to the desktop and not have to contend with the "apps" screen.
I don't like that when I install an application such as Nero or Adobe Master Suite that every entry gets added to the apps screen and I have to manually clean up all of the entries that I don't want on there.
I don't like the convoluted process to Turn off/Sleep the computer.

However, I'll use the new Windows 8 UI and learn to understand it, and hopefully the wonderful world of the Internet will either teach us how to adapt or revert:
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/


Also just in case anyone cares, My Diablo III (Blizzard) installed and plays just fine, as well as my Half-Life 2 (valve) with the steam client.

With App stores reaching 10,000+ Apps who cares if 10-15 no name developers are saying as for Blizzard they said they felt "uneasy" not that they are boycotting or calling to boycott Windows 8.

And if some larger developers decide to switch camps it will give new fresh developers a chance to make their mark

Too much speculation as one guy mentioned earlier.. "What IF Microsoft.."
Pretty good point for sure.

But if we want to speculate about what Microsoft is going to do it makes me think
of them sitting in an office discussing.. Any company, the bigger they get are gonna
probably have pro's help craft their co.'s future. Ever heard of "Where do you see yourself in 5 years ?" Am i to expect MS hasn't made plans for this ???
Of course they have.. pretty safe bet. It's business.
So that makes me think one thing.. NO desktop in the future / Metro replacement etc
People baulk at the idea and say it's crazy it won't happen, but i think its very real and could happen soon, maybe Windows 9 soon ?
So factoring in that concept i see why some devs may already hate W8 and may be pretty nervous where MS is heading.

Shadowzz said,


Metro/Modern is here to stay as your default interface for all of MS's systems. This isnt going away!


That's just what they like to believe you,

If windows 8 does not cell so good for desktops i'm shure they change it to windows 7 desktop with startmenu back etc.

So far for desktops i say windows 8 is a fail.

These game developers are only condemning the OS due to Microsoft's upcoming Xbox-style control over games. I'll just presume you guys who clearly miss the point and blindly support Microsoft over this only buy mainstream games anyway and you'd probably not notice the difference if these lesser known titles ever saw the light of day. *despair*

You don't have to put your apps on the app store. In fact you can just list the app there and the store will direct to your website to get your software. Or just sell your software as you have been for years, that doesn't change.

If you need a start menu, install one. There's at least 3 different ones out there.

If you don't like metro, don't use it! I have Win8 on a laptop and I haven't seen the metro interface in months. It just stays on the desktop and when I wake it from sleep i'm back at the desktop.

Of course they're upset that it has to go through the store's regulations and that they'll have to gove up some revenue. But this is good for most consumers. More trustworthy software. If they're selling something for a more savy user then they don't need the MS store. So i don't see the problem

I remember way back when Windows 95 was released. I clearly recall articles stating that the Start button was "Stupid" and no one will adopt it coming from Windows 3.11.

Well, here we are, complaining about the Start button going away.

Don't fear change!

AverageJoe70 said,
I remember way back when Windows 95 was released. I clearly recall articles stating that the Start button was "Stupid" and no one will adopt it coming from Windows 3.11.

Well, here we are, complaining about the Start button going away.

Don't fear change!

small piece of the puzzle..

and who is complaining about the start menu ?
Uhhhhh you are lol
I see almost no comments never mind in the story bringing that up.

And who's scared ?
I guess if i was as brave and courageous as you i would like windows 8 ?

And the start menu is not comparable like that its a unique situation.
But if you insist..
It would be like if i decided to change all cars on the planet at once with no warning
and remove all controls such as foot pedals and steering wheels and gear shifters.
And then told everyone, well it's easier to control the cars with your cell phone or something.
The concept is pulling the rug out from under people with no transition or options.
How is this not obvious ?

i looked at the story again and i was wrong.
The dev did bring up the start menu.
I forgot because i scrolled down past an hours worth of comments lol

Please stop the with the DRAMA.

Windows 8 is NOT closed. You can still install applications just like all other versions of windows.

The Windows Store will offer a distribution point for smaller developers to find a larger market!


I'm really enjoying Windows 8 to be honest. I use it on my desktop with a 23-inch and a 21-inch. It's fun, it's easy, and it's way better than the way everyone is overreacting and making it seem. My absolute favorite little thing is that when I get an e-mail, I get a notification. When my alarm goes off, I get a little notification. I love combining desktop and Modern features to tailor my OS for me.

It's like someone at Microsoft took their upcoming tablet interface designed for 7 inch touch sensitive devices, and insisted we'd want the same thing on our 24 inch monitors with mice and keyboards. No thank you Microsoft.

Hm. So I guess that means then I should go back to Windows 7 on my entertainment PC, which I have to raise the DPI to 200% to even see correctly. Cool. **** this Metro ****.

/s

Poor Andy took 15 to 20 mins to write this up and I bet never thought the M$ fanboi eruption would be so crazy. Next you should write an article on how M$ over charges for a OS; that will really get them steamed.

RawGutts said,
Poor Andy took 15 to 20 mins to write this up and I bet never thought the M$ fanboi eruption would be so crazy. Next you should write an article on how M$ over charges for a OS; that will really get them steamed.

Like this?

"Windows 8 Pro to be priced at $199 following $69.99 promotional pricing"

When GUI's first came out all the power users complained (including me at the time) that it was just a dumbing down and would never be needed. There was nothing in Windows 1 to 3 that couldn't be achieved (often more quickly) with a CLI. After a while things started to become more sophisticated and the masses were far more productive, achieving things in a few clicks that would be near impossible, even for professionals, in a command line environment.
I cannot see anything different, just history repeating itself.

Pygmy_Hippo said,
When GUI's first came out all the power users complained (including me at the time) that it was just a dumbing down and would never be needed. There was nothing in Windows 1 to 3 that couldn't be achieved (often more quickly) with a CLI. After a while things started to become more sophisticated and the masses were far more productive, achieving things in a few clicks that would be near impossible, even for professionals, in a command line environment.
I cannot see anything different, just history repeating itself.

This comment wins the Internet.

When GUI's first came out all the power users complained (including me at the time) that it was just a dumbing down and would never be needed. There was nothing in Windows 1 to 3 that couldn't be achieved (often more quickly) with a CLI. After a while things started to become more sophisticated and the masses were far more productive, achieving things in a few clicks that would be near impossible, even for professionals, in a command line environment.
I cannot see anything different, just history repeating itself.

I don't understand what these developper want... Windows 8 or even Windows RT are not more or less than iOS with App Store... Wich never has so bad commentaries from them. If Windows 7 was so great, why they never scream it before all that pro Apple iOS/iPad mania ? Maybe cause they was interested by iOS hype... And maybe cause they're a bit opportunists, and stupide.

Bandwagon jumping for publicity eh?

They already make games for iOS which has a certification process so what's different, oh yeah i know, they can still make games the old way for Windows too if it bothers them that much.

Not supporting Windows 8 because of financial interests is totally different to not supporting it because it is a bad OS. Valve needs to focus on video games rather than selling them and Blizzard has no choice.

I am sorry but if any STEAM powered game I buy doesn't play on my system (LGA2011 i7, 32GB RAM, SSD Drive, Radeon 6990) then I applaud Microsoft kicking out the cowboys since they love using the "Games for Windows" scheme.

The problem arises when they don't support Windows 8 for their games!!!!. Its not Microsoft that controls the gaming market, it just influences.... however if companies like steam and blizzard are forced to branch out and we have to wait longer for the support of windows, it starts this alpha-male war between who is more popular amongst PC people, and always always Microsoft wins this so end consumers take the hit!

I agree with his comments regarding Windows 8, but as others have pointed out there is no one forcing developers to create Windows apps. Just keep doing what you're doing and it'll be fine.

And for those that don't know what Introversion Software is...I'm surprised, especially if you consider yourself to be a gamer.

Intrinsica said,
I agree with his comments regarding Windows 8, but as others have pointed out there is no one forcing developers to create Windows apps. Just keep doing what you're doing and it'll be fine.

And for those that don't know what Introversion Software is...I'm surprised, especially if you consider yourself to be a gamer.


Okay, I actually bought Uplink and DEFCON, i've played darwinia...
But this is the first time i hear of these guys.

I also tune out during the freaking ads when launching games, same with logos all over the place. I just dont see/hear it mentally

These companies seem to completely ignore the fact that before Windows 8 there has been no Windows Store and no Modern UI. Their previous way of selling their products is still perfectly viable, and the old APIs still work just fine for desktop applications.

To actually complain that a company that runs a store wants to certify the products they sell is beyond ridiculous.

7 inch touch sensitive devices, and insisted we'd want the same thing on our 24 inch monitors with mice and keyboards. No thank you Microsoft

And seriously, who didn't stop here and go, WT*? Um, Xbox, Media Center, even ZuneHD A/V, and he thinks it won't work with Windows 8, why?

Metro was designed and has been successfully used in Media Center on Theater size screens since 2003 operated with a trackpad, mouse, keyboard, air mouse, laser pointer mouse, and freaking 5 button remote control.

Additionally, when talking gaming, the Xbox UI that was originally Metro based with the Blade concepts of Metro, on to the current version that is DIRECTLY Metro in design, and it seems to work very well on a large screen operated with a freaking game controller or a Remote Control or voice commands.


Has NOBODY hooked their freaking Computer up using Media Center to a TV 24" or larger? Really? Has NOBODY hooked their Xbox up to a TV 24" or larger?

Seriously? My theater room with a 25 foot screen works brilliantly with an Xbox, Media Center, and wait for it... Windows 8.

This developer is a tool and anyone that would repeat or buy into his lack of reasoning should be mocked.

It is also time to just start boycotting developers like this trying to get free publicity, and maybe Neowin for inciting this idiocy.

If Microsoft

"IF" is a goofy ****** getting headlines... Microsoft has specifically stated this is NOT their intent, nor do they want the responsibility.

In other words...
IF my aunt had a d*** she would be my uncle...

Mike Frett said,
Listen devs, Windows is not the be all end all. It's past time to move all your code over to Mac, Linux and other OSes.

Listen to what? He is concerned about windows store certification (and it works only for metro apps), for desktop apps nothing changed. Other problem seems to be the start menu... the start menu. And MS has to listen to such crap thing?

Mike Frett said,
Listen devs, Windows is not the be all end all. It's past time to move all your code over to Mac, Linux and other OSes.

Ya, move over and support the 10% of the computing market, BRILLIANT...

This developer is speculating on something that will never happen, is getting headlines, and if you and other developers want to DROP Windows development, HOORAY, I will invest in all the companies that are not STUPID.

bviktor said,
So what. I can give you 100 devs for each of these which say yes. This is getting really old.

But these developers like getting the free press and their names mentioned in the news, especially the sh***y developers we didn't know existed...

Eh? I thought many would know them from their hacking game, Uplink (it did have a strong modding community...not sure anymore) and Darwinia for garnering such a positive critic (high 80/90s)

"If Microsoft stays its current course, it could well find itself replaced by GNU/Linux on the desktop. "

Absolutely... Linux has a modular UI.. you can pick what ever one you desire.. and there are many choices to pick from

rhianntp said,
"If Microsoft stays its current course, it could well find itself replaced by GNU/Linux on the desktop. "

Absolutely... Linux has a modular UI.. you can pick what ever one you desire.. and there are many choices to pick from

Yeah. Many choices to support. Bazillions of configurations. That's why it's buggy hell. That's why the Linux desktop never worked (and never will).

Oh, and no, Android is not a Linux desktop. It's just a Linux kernel + Google's own sh*t.

rhianntp said,
"If Microsoft stays its current course, it could well find itself replaced by GNU/Linux on the desktop. "

Absolutely... Linux has a modular UI.. you can pick what ever one you desire.. and there are many choices to pick from

Great for power users, but how many non-technical users (the 90% of the market) would cope with that? Most of the stuff I end up repairing has every file stored on the desktop, has never been updated and the user cannot distinguish between Internet Explorer and Explorer


I'm skipping Windows 8 until Microsoft include an option to use the Windows 7 start menu, and reduce the metro interface to a program [like the] Control Panel. It's like someone at Microsoft took their upcoming tablet interface designed for 7 inch touch sensitive devices, and insisted we'd want the same thing on our 24 inch monitors with mice and keyboards. No thank you Microsoft.”

This guy has hit the nail on the head and said what we are all thinking. We can only hope that Microsoft heeds the criticism for Windows 9.

simplezz said,
This guy has hit the nail on the head and said what we are all thinking.

The old Start Menu was a poor use of screen space. Everything was stuck in a tiny box in the left-hand corner. Imagine what that will be like when we have 4K displays for PCs. It would be unusable!

rhianntp said,
Glad to see another voice of reason expressing the obvious

Ya, cause "If" is so OBVIOUS, when it HASN'T happened and will not happen... Brilliant.

Are you damaged?

Meh, all the Windows 8 moaning and complaining is boring. Do they not know all programs, including Steam work on Windows 8 in desktop mode?!?

Oh well, their loss. I doubt Microsoft will ever add back a start menu that many are used to, anyways.

Lord Venom said,
Meh, all the Windows 8 moaning and complaining is boring. Do they not know all programs, including Steam work on Windows 8 in desktop mode?!?

For how long though? The desktop has already been rendered a second class citizen in the startscreen/tile/metro world. Clearly Microsoft intends to phase out the desktop as we know it, it's just a question of when.

Lord Venom said,

Oh well, their loss. I doubt Microsoft will ever add back a start menu that many are used to, anyways.

If Microsoft stays its current course, it could well find itself replaced by GNU/Linux on the desktop.

simplezz said,

For how long though? The desktop has already been rendered a second class citizen in the startscreen/tile/metro world. Clearly Microsoft intends to phase out the desktop as we know it, it's just a question of when.

If Microsoft stays its current course, it could well find itself replaced by GNU/Linux on the desktop.

The desktop is not a second class citizen. There are numerous additions and improvements put into the desktop. windows 8 does have a vastly better desktop, that cannot be denied. The startscreen is a worthy replacement of the old startscreen and is perfectly usable by keyboard and mouse, it offers pretty much all that was provided by the startmenu + live tiles which are a much better idea as opposed to static icons.

Next year still won't be the year of GNU/Linux on the desktop, as real developers are not developing for it, due to lack of usage and fragmentation, both of these aren't going away, and win32 is alive an well on Windows. I bet even this guy continues to develop for win32, and if metro does take off, he will quickly change his tune, amd the closed app store suddenly isn't a problem anymore, just as it isn't on ios apparently...

simplezz said,

For how long though? The desktop has already been rendered a second class citizen in the startscreen/tile/metro world. Clearly Microsoft intends to phase out the desktop as we know it, it's just a question of when.

If Microsoft stays its current course, it could well find itself replaced by GNU/Linux on the desktop.

2nd class citizen? I'm on the desktop in Win8 all the f*cking time and somehow I fail to see that happen. It's 1 (ONE) click away. Is it so f*cking hard for you? And for these retarted whining devs?

simplezz said,

For how long though? The desktop has already been rendered a second class citizen in the startscreen/tile/metro world. Clearly Microsoft intends to phase out the desktop as we know it, it's just a question of when.

If Microsoft stays its current course, it could well find itself replaced by GNU/Linux on the desktop.

Wow, you might want to mention this to Microsoft; because, if you might have noticed, Office 2013 is a suite of DESKTOP applications.

So ya, Microsoft is killing the desktop with Windows 8 and doesn't want people to buy Office, their premium revenue product...

Are all you people this stupid?

simplezz said,

If Microsoft stays its current course, it could well find itself replaced by GNU/Linux on the desktop.

Insert Year+1= x the year of Linux on the desktop

More hate on Windows 8, I love it!

I wonder if its market share will be lower than XP.

..Probably not, but only because I expect people to be all giddy over the fact they can now use a touch sensitive monitor to control their system. Fun for a few days, then back to the mouse and keyboard because it's way more efficient.

I'm skipping Windows 8 until Microsoft include an option to use the Windows 7 start menu, and reduce the metro interface to a program [like the] Control Panel.


Fail developer is fail

Windows-8 is for consumer oriented tablets with Windows-7 for business oriented laptops and desktops. Its that simple. MS's big mistake was trying to make one cutesy OS for both marketplaces.

TsarNikky said,
Windows-8 is for consumer oriented tablets with Windows-7 for business oriented laptops and desktops. Its that simple. MS's big mistake was trying to make one cutesy OS for both marketplaces.

Explain how this is a mistake. "Either or" is childish.

It's like someone at Microsoft took their upcoming tablet interface designed for 7 inch touch sensitive devices, and insisted we'd want the same thing on our 24 inch monitors with mice and keyboards. No thank you Microsoft.

Weird. I'm using the same UI on my Xbox 360 to browse the internet in my 42 in plasma on the living room of my house..... woooooooo!!!

Ricardo Dawkins said,

Weird. I'm using the same UI on my Xbox 360 to browse the internet in my 42 in plasma on the living room of my house..... woooooooo!!!

Wait.. You use a mouse and keyboard to control your Xbox360?

simplezz said,

Wait.. You use a mouse and keyboard to control your Xbox360?

If it's any help, I use a joystick/keyboard combo for Windows 8 (on a HTPC connected to a 42" HDTV) and have done since Windows XP - no problems here

so it's okay only when Apple and Google does it?
both the App Store and Google Play have been seen as a boon to indie developers - but when Microsoft comes up with the Windows Store or even the Windows Phone Marketplace, it's an instant fail.

It's like Microsoft can't win - they get sued like crazy when they remotely take a cue from their competitors, and when they come up with something different, no one is interested in taking advantage of it.

FalseAgent said,
so it's okay only when Apple and Google does it?
both the App Store and Google Play have been seen as a boon to indie developers - but when Microsoft comes up with the Windows Store or even the Windows Phone Marketplace, it's an instant fail.

It's like Microsoft can't win - they get sued like crazy when they remotely take a cue from their competitors, and when they come up with something different, no one is interested in taking advantage of it.

Huge difference, Google and Apple do not have 90 % of the desktop market share....MS is telling it's most important customer base that they no longer care about them.. all for the fickle minded trendy consumer they think they can steal from Apple in its ipad space...gonna backfire in a huge way...all they had to do to avoid this is have metro as an option rather than forcing it upon desktop users.. similar to media center...there is absolutely no reason in the world why on my desktop pc I should not be able to boot directly into the desktop where I intend on working the entire session... simple login prompts as well.. it's not rocket science....but instead we get this dumbed down experience that feels disjointed and forced

rhianntp said,

Huge difference, Google and Apple do not have 90 % of the desktop market share....MS is telling it's most important customer base that they no longer care about them.. all for the fickle minded trendy consumer they think they can steal from Apple in its ipad space...gonna backfire in a huge way...all they had to do to avoid this is have metro as an option rather than forcing it upon desktop users.. similar to media center...there is absolutely no reason in the world why on my desktop pc I should not be able to boot directly into the desktop where I intend on working the entire session... simple login prompts as well.. it's not rocket science....but instead we get this dumbed down experience that feels disjointed and forced


No but Apple and Google do have the majority of the mobile market (unless Windows Phone 7 has made a great leap overnight) and they seem to be attracting a lot of developers and business with marketplace paradigms.

all i see is a call to arms by cheerleaders looking for a place to do their cheers.
these people can't leave it alone.. like piranhas and fresh meat
kinda sad and pathetic that these people are not entitled to their opinions.

I hope it gets under your skin to no end cheerleaders that windows 8 sucks
and will fail harder than Vista and there is nothing you can do to control other people..
If they don't like it and don't wanna use then too bad suck it up and mind your own business instead of crying and whining at every single opportunity.

virtorio said,
Just a quick survey, how many of you actually read the article?
I saw indie and quit. The idea that it's a closed ecosystem on WinRT is no big deal to me. The idea that x86 will be closed is asinine.

Anyway, if the indies really care they can create their own subscription and transaction system and all they have to do is pass MS's certification which isn't that big of a deal. They are crying and its quite sad.

Doesn't really make sense because they will still be able to make games just not sell them in the store.

Maybe they are looking in to the future and seeing Microsoft making the windows store the only channel for new software??

That is exactly what he said:

If Microsoft manage to close Windows and get to the point where every app has to be approved and certified by them, it's game over for a lot of indies, including Introversion.

virtorio said,
That is exactly what he said:


What he said is complete and utter FUD tho.
These indies make games for iOS, Android, xbox, PS3/PSV and maybe more devices, and EACH AND ALL of these devices are more locked down then Windows 8 ever will be. And except for Android, all of these devices also have ALLOT stricter and rigorous app screening process.

Go make a browser that does not use webkit, and runs the html/js code natively on iOS... owait! IMPOSSIBRU

Windows 8 is a weird operating system. It's like 2 interfaces-one metro and one regular without a start menu. I tried the developer preview and didn't care for it. I think it will be nice on a tablet though but not a desktop so much.

boydp182 said,
Windows 8 is a weird operating system. It's like 2 interfaces-one metro and one regular without a start menu. I tried the developer preview and didn't care for it. I think it will be nice on a tablet though but not a desktop so much.

However, if you use it for a few minutes, you would find the two non-congruent UIs do interact and work well together, especially with a keyboard and mouse configuration.

Since Win8 has added more keyboard navigation, shortcuts, and mouse gestures than any version of Windows 95, it is arguably the most keyboard friendly version in the history of Windows.

With Arrow keys, tab, enter, and the Win key, you can get around in Metro faster than a touch user. It is also faster than using the desktop, as you can't directly navigate the UI using just these basic keys, and must use App specific shortcut modifiers in Ctrl/Alt combinations that are no longer necessary.

Seriously, think about it....

Why would people listen to people who haven't used used Windows 8 for more than one minute? It's baffling and appalling. If you want to know if Windows 8 is good or not, just download the RTM and run it in a virtualbox.

Zeet said,
Why would people listen to people who haven't used used Windows 8 for more than one minute? It's baffling and appalling. If you want to know if Windows 8 is good or not, just download the RTM and run it in a virtualbox.

agreed
but where are you basing your comment ?
Is there some study done showing that most people who don't like win 8 never used it ?
Or are we just making up stats or something ?

Why is it that humans think everything as black and white? Why is it that an OS cannot have two UI paradigms, rather than just one or another? Do they want people to waste their money on two devices (tablets and laptops) rather than spend their hard-earned money on an all-in-one device that provides both content creation with desktop UI and content consumption with Modern UI? Oh wait, developers can't sell there same product across multiple types of hardware if it is unified into one device! Crooks.

DClark said,
Why is it that an OS cannot have two UI paradigms, rather than just one or another?

'cause Windows 8 doesn't have 2! it, has two half-broken ones...

If curated ecosystems are bad for the game developer, somebody please explain why Valve is a good guy.

Last I checked, Steam is a curated ecosystem.

I don't see what this guy's problem is. It's not hard to get your app approved in the marketplace. I wrote 2 apps for WP7 and getting approved was extremely easy to do. Some people just like to complain...

Of course they will hate it. Gabe and the rest of the guys got their own news articles from techsites for bashing the OS. If I'm an indie dev, I'd go for that free advertisement too.

Sooo these guys dont like the fact MS have to approve their apps before they get published?

If they make good apps i dont see the problem :?

Not only that BUT they already do this process for their Xbox Arcade games!!!!!!!!

Same process, diffrent playform

brent3000 said,
Sooo these guys dont like the fact MS have to approve their apps before they get published?

If they make good apps i dont see the problem :?

Not only that BUT they already do this process for their Xbox Arcade games!!!!!!!!

Same process, diffrent playform

And it is only for WinRT based applications that developers WANT to sell through Microsoft's store. PERIOD.

As you mentioned, this is how it works for XBox Indie titles already, and WP7, but maybe we are being silly, why would a developer want to release a game on the Xbox? It isn't like it is the most popular gaming console in the world or anything.

The other silly thing, is Microsoft is doing a lot work to get App compatibility so WP8, Xbox, Win8 WinRT and non-WinRT are all fairly easy ports, so developers that were locked to DirectX or WP can now look to moving to Win8, Win8 RT tablets, and on to the Xbox as well, when they didn't have the same opportunity before.

These developers are just wanting to get headlines or are really stupid.

i agree with that developer.there should at least be an option for start menu and direct boot to desktop. for a desktop user. the whole metro thing is cool for a touch screen only, no good with a mouse. win7 start menu is better for me.
besides, i saw some comics before, and they were showing one windows up and one down
dos was ok, 95 crap, 98 ok, 2000 quite crap, xp ok, vista crap, windows 7 cool, win 8.......?
i guess it will keep on going the same

Meena Bassem said,
i agree with that developer.there should at least be an option for start menu and direct boot to desktop. for a desktop user. the whole metro thing is cool for a touch screen only, no good with a mouse. win7 start menu is better for me.
besides, i saw some comics before, and they were showing one windows up and one down
dos was ok, 95 crap, 98 ok, 2000 quite crap, xp ok, vista crap, windows 7 cool, win 8.......?
i guess it will keep on going the same

direct boot to desktop?
it takes literally a click to get to the desktop. I don't see the big deal about this. You're clicking stuff all the time, what's one instant click? Click the desktop icon, you get your desktop in an instant.

aviator189 said,

direct boot to desktop?
it takes literally a click to get to the desktop. I don't see the big deal about this. You're clicking stuff all the time, what's one instant click? Click the desktop icon, you get your desktop in an instant.

Also, the start screen is not just static icons - its live tiles with quick info along with the apps you use. So you start your PC, login, are presented with info (how many emails, calendar appointments, social network updates etc with more to come as apps roll in), then you want to open an app, so you click the apps tile.

now if you boot to desktop, what changes here? You still boot the machine, you login, then you get a desktop with static icons and no info, then you click the icon for the app you want to use.

The only difference in flow in both examples is one gives at a glance info and one doesn't, along with a visual layout change that is I suspect the main reason for your dislike - due to the workflow and usage actually changing for the better!

Meena Bassem said,
i agree with that developer.there should at least be an option for start menu and direct boot to desktop. for a desktop user. the whole metro thing is cool for a touch screen only, no good with a mouse. win7 start menu is better for me.
besides, i saw some comics before, and they were showing one windows up and one down
dos was ok, 95 crap, 98 ok, 2000 quite crap, xp ok, vista crap, windows 7 cool, win 8.......?
i guess it will keep on going the same

Seriously dude.

95 was great for its time, good OS and especially for its time.
Windows 98 was horrible, complete and utter fail. It would CRASH on every single shutdown on every single PC. It also crashes when an uptime of 128 (or something like that) days was reached. Stability was just complete horrid.
MS had to release a seperate and updated Win98 with so many changes, it became a stand alone OS on its own, Windows98SE. This one was pretty decent.

2000 was horrible at first, took SP1 and SP2 before this OS was workable for desktop use (playing games etc)

XP was, except for 98, the most horrible OS ever released. It took MS untill SP2 before making this OS worthwhile over 98se/me/2000.

Vista was a great OS, anything you enjoy in Win7, came/started with Vista. The OS ran on underpowered hardware, and it took months after release before OEMS and hardware manufactures caught on and started providing proper drivers.

Windows 7, well its a fine OS.

But the other OS's, your just speaking out of your ass, seems like you have no idea what you're talking about mate.

Shadowzz said,

Seriously dude.

95 was great for its time, good OS and especially for its time.
Windows 98 was horrible, complete and utter fail. It would CRASH on every single shutdown on every single PC. It also crashes when an uptime of 128 (or something like that) days was reached. Stability was just complete horrid.
MS had to release a seperate and updated Win98 with so many changes, it became a stand alone OS on its own, Windows98SE. This one was pretty decent.

2000 was horrible at first, took SP1 and SP2 before this OS was workable for desktop use (playing games etc)

XP was, except for 98, the most horrible OS ever released. It took MS untill SP2 before making this OS worthwhile over 98se/me/2000.

Vista was a great OS, anything you enjoy in Win7, came/started with Vista. The OS ran on underpowered hardware, and it took months after release before OEMS and hardware manufactures caught on and started providing proper drivers.

Windows 7, well its a fine OS.

But the other OS's, your just speaking out of your ass, seems like you have no idea what you're talking about mate.

Wow, how people remember OSes so differently.

Win95 was a good OS for the time, but in today's class of OSes, it is a long way from Windows 7/8. The only OSes it would compete with today would be Android, and that is because they are both monolithic OSes with no credible security model.

Win98 was a better OS than people give it credit, it was 10-15% faster than Win95, introduced several new UI concepts, that are 'just now' popular, you will notice the Active Desktop concepts as Widgets on Android and OS X and HTML folder display technologies as common when you use GDrive, DropBox, SkyDrive, etc. It was a bit ahead of its time in the UI areas, and people never developed out these concepts in commercial products like they could have if they understood the capabilities. Win98 was the first non-NT OS to introduce audio multiplexing and other features Windows users have taken for granted for a long time now, that is still 'dodgy' in other OSes, or a horrid loss of sound quality in the resample (*cough* OS X)

Win2k was a 'corporate' release product, and was focused on the Server technologies and Active Directory, it was not designed for Gaming, and this is why it sucked for gaming with poor transitional driver and DirectX support; however, the Xbox work on DX 8.1 helped, as you noticed in the subsequent SP releases and what eventually was in Windows XP.

The other thing that is strange is that you and others do a standard lineage and don't seem to realize that Win9x is as different from Win2k as DOS is from Win9x.

In the world of Windows, there was 1.0, 2.x/386, 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, 3.12, Win95, Win98, WinME. These were monolithic kernel technologies built in non-portable and assembly optimized code.

Then there was Windows NT 3.1, 3.5, 3.51, 4.0, Win2K, WinXP, Vista, Win7, Win8. These are not even 'related' to the other Windows versions, except for software compatibility with a large portion of Win32/Win16 API parity. The kernel is Object Based that is horizontally and vertically layered, with a client server model using upper layer subsystems for API OS VM isolation, as the WIn32 kernel runs in the Win32 subsystem and is not the NT kernel.

The reason to keep them separate is that a lot of people 'had it' with Win9x and WinME and don't realize that the consumer version of XP forward are all NT based, and carry no code forward or have anything to do with the other lineage of OSes.

It would be like mixing in WinCE versions, or talking about OS X like it is built from System 9.

thenetavenger said,

Wow, how people remember OSes so differently.
.


So true, But for a consumer, Win98 (not SE) was horrible. Felt like best thing it did was crashing, considering the shutdown crash, uptime crashes and the usual added crashes. It was just horrible. Some great new features and advancements where added over Win95 thats for sure. But hows that helpfull when the OS crashes a few times a day

At Win98SE allot of stability issues where fixed (among allot of other issues) and it became a good OS, especially for its time.

Altho I'm sure that Win9x is more different from Win2k then DOS is from Win9x (considering it took untill WinME before they where able to "completely" get rid of the underlaying DOS subset).

And I just took my view from a consumer point, at release times of the OS's, not after SP's and second editions etc And I'm quite sure I'm right on the money, better then the dude I was replying too

neowin: owned by someone who makes start menu replacement software

neowin: quotes some random basement developer who nobodys even heard

neowin fail

vcfan said,
neowin: quotes some random basement developer who nobodys even heard

neowin fail


That awkward moment when Neowin is a news site quoting another news source.
Troll fail.

vcfan said,
neowin: owned by someone who makes start menu replacement software

neowin: quotes some random basement developer who nobodys even heard

neowin fail

are you high ?

this place is pro microsoft as any site i've seen..

i have no idea what you guys are smoking

I am Not PCyr said,

are you high ?

this place is pro microsoft as any site i've seen..

i have no idea what you guys are smoking


Its even in the name Neowin

Nothing wrong with windows 8. All this complaining...I just don't understand. There's a start screen and the marketplace...these devs aren't being forced to put their stuff on the windows marketplace if they don't want to. They still have the traditional desktop for that. It's just more options to put their stuff on.

aviator189 said,
Nothing wrong with windows 8. All this complaining...I just don't understand. There's a start screen and the marketplace...these devs aren't being forced to put their stuff on the windows marketplace if they don't want to. They still have the traditional desktop for that. It's just more options to put their stuff on.

Question for those of you that are *also* running the RTM - how many Win32 games that you ran in 7 are you unable to on Windows 8? (In my case it's absolutely none - they all work without a quibble - and that includes Crysis 2, Civ V - which I never had an issue with, and even the issue I had with TERA Online went away. Direct booting to desktop is rather easy - I dragged the desktop tile from lower left to upper left. Now it's a keypress away.)

PGHammer said,

Question for those of you that are *also* running the RTM - how many Win32 games that you ran in 7 are you unable to on Windows 8? (In my case it's absolutely none - they all work without a quibble - and that includes Crysis 2, Civ V - which I never had an issue with, and even the issue I had with TERA Online went away. Direct booting to desktop is rather easy - I dragged the desktop tile from lower left to upper left. Now it's a keypress away.)

I have RTM running on both my desktop and my work laptop, ALL programs (games and otherwise) are running on Windows 8. I also installed a few metro apps that I am using now, already Windows 8 offers more choice, choice a scary thing apparently. All of a sudden choice becomes "forced". Amazing.

aviator189 said,

care to list your reasons??

He said before he doesn't even use it, so don't worry about him hes just a desperate troll.

PGHammer said,

Question for those of you that are *also* running the RTM - how many Win32 games that you ran in 7 are you unable to on Windows 8? (In my case it's absolutely none - they all work without a quibble - and that includes Crysis 2, Civ V - which I never had an issue with, and even the issue I had with TERA Online went away. Direct booting to desktop is rather easy - I dragged the desktop tile from lower left to upper left. Now it's a keypress away.)


Im happily playing Dungeon Keeper 1 on my Windows 8 machine (no, not the GOG version, not DK2, not KeeperFX).
Red Alert 1 and 2 are also no problems at all, Age of Empires 2 also runs smooth as it always did.

Just naming a few games that are AT LEAST a decade old, they still run without an issue on the latest OS.

Have yet to find anything that worked on Windows 7 that did not work on Windows 8.

Toysoldier said,

He said before he doesn't even use it, so don't worry about him hes just a desperate troll.

Nice lol
If I'm a Troll then your a Fanboy / Cheerleader

To reply to your point though..
If i was to hypothetically of course tell you i was going to spit in your face
would you need me to actually do it for you to understand you do like it ?

I think I'm being made out to be a big bad Troll because i make sensible
and logical points about the issue's facing Windows 8.
And some people are emotionally invested in Windows 8 in a creepy and disturbing manner..
Why are people getting so butt-hurt that you can't force everyone to like win 8 ?

ahhell said,
I agree...it'll only sell hundreds of millions of copies just like Vista!! What a failure!!

It may have done, and it was.

Stay with the times or get left in the dust. Odds are his game will work perfectly fine on Win8, but hes whining because I cant use the Start Menu to find his icon, Oh noes!

McKay said,
Stay with the times or get left in the dust. Odds are his game will work perfectly fine on Win8, but hes whining because I cant use the Start Menu to find his icon, Oh noes!

the only people whining are the Windows 8 fanboys..
open your eyes and look around.. count the comments in here for or against
i see who the whiners are !

I am Not PCyr said,

the only people whining are the Windows 8 fanboys..
open your eyes and look around.. count the comments in here for or against
i see who the whiners are !

Only the Windows 8 fanboys are whining? You realised you posted this in an article about developer whining because there's no start menu?

I am Not PCyr said,

the only people whining are the Windows 8 fanboys..
open your eyes and look around.. count the comments in here for or against
i see who the whiners are !


Oh so defending from FUD is considered whining now? Dude really.....

Allof of FUD constantly comes from Win8 haters, including this douche where Neowin made an entire article about. They have barely/not used Windows 8, and if some did. They started using this OS with all of the prejudgement that came before. These are the same people who complain Vista was an awfull OS, eventho the OS itself was great as long as it wasnt underpowered (go run Winxp on a P3 500mhz with 64MB ram and see how 'smooth' it'll run). The OS itself brought so many new gamechanging features to the Windows OS and the rest of the computer world, not even funny. Its a disgrace to call Vista a worthless crap OS! And the ones that did/continue doing so, are fools and should be ignored. However these same/similar people are now doing exactly the same to Windows 8. The OS brings some gamechanging new features to our desktops and its just allot of boohoo and crycry. Speading FUD and utter, completely made up false BS!
This is absolutely ridiculous, Win8 runs 99% the same as Win7, the start screen is rarely used, even according to MS's own statistics (which are very accurate) they saw the Start menu usage in a fast decline over the years and the main usage of the start menu, due to its mess, complexibility and horrible to keep clean, most used the run/search box and thats it. Go use Win7 for a year or 2, install the stuff over the years, and see a never ending list of folders and files in your start menu. HOW IS THAT WORKABLE? It's completely horrible to keep a clean and organised star menu outside the initial popup screen you see.

Adding to this, MS's research on its statistics gathering has shown that almost everyone runs full screen apps, its a minority that has allot of tiny windows open. Besides you can only focus your concentration on an area the size of a freaking penny.

Stop hating, and stop trying to pretend the ones that defend Windows 8 against all the FUD spreading are the bad people.

Shadowzz said,

They have barely/not used Windows 8, and if some did. They started using this OS with all of the prejudgement that came before.

sorry but i stopped reading when you contradicted yourself on your second sentence..

prejudgement ? really ?
Read what i quoted lol

by the way show me your proof of where ALL FUD comes from
and while your at it show the evidence where it shows that anyone
that does not like Windows 8 did not or barely used it ?
Pulling so called facts of out of your butt is FUD buddy

So now we are resorting to quoting some guy that nobody has ever heard of to supposedly "prove" that Win8 is bad? Can we get quotes from the many people, such as myself that have never sold software to the market (I have developed many projects for in house use, but not sold to others) who are building Metro apps? Will their voice be heard, or will we only hear from the "haters"?

nohone said,
So now we are resorting to quoting some guy that nobody has ever heard of to supposedly "prove" that Win8 is bad?

Well, I'd heard of them. I'm a huge fan of Multiwinia.

theyarecomingforyou said,

Well, I'd heard of them. I'm a huge fan of Multiwinia.


Man, that's the only game of IV that I've missed so far... (How is it? Compared to Darwinia?)

I completely agree with the second quote. It is nonsensical to use a tablet touch-screen optimized UI on a desktop computer. I would honestly change OS if I could; but I can not. All the programs and Games I use are Windows only.

So I can only hope that Windows 8 flops hard so we can get back on track with Windows 9.

MindTrickz said,
I completely agree with the second quote. It is nonsensical to use a tablet touch-screen optimized UI on a desktop computer. I would honestly change OS if I could; but I can not. All the programs and Games I use are Windows only.

So I can only hope that Windows 8 flops hard so we can get back on track with Windows 9.

Here we go.....

MindTrickz said,
I completely agree with the second quote. It is nonsensical to use a tablet touch-screen optimized UI on a desktop computer. I would honestly change OS if I could; but I can not. All the programs and Games I use are Windows only.

So I can only hope that Windows 8 flops hard so we can get back on track with Windows 9.

Couple things:

1) Start Menu is dead. It's gone. Kaput. There's no bringing it back either. Lest you want to loose the new multi-mon features, among other things.

2) The Start screen is an excellent idea, even on desktops. I'm in love with the fact that I have a hub to my PC, that I can customize to my liking without having to jump through hoops. Also, I can finally see the icons I'm clinking on on my big screen monitor. Lastly, the live tiles (Like them or not) are a huge step forward for things. It's nice that I can leave my Start up on the screen and walk away from my PC, and know when I get updates without having to sit back down and open each app back up.

efjay said,

Here we go.....

Yep. I love how "power users" are so sure that Win8 will flop or tank hard. There has never been a version of windows that didn't sell 10s of millions on the lowend.

efjay said,

Here we go.....

here we go what ?

you cheerleaders dominated every single comment before this guys spoke
and read the title.. you guys came in here to bitch and complain..
i see clearly who the whiners are !
Just because someone doesn't like windows 8 doesn't give the rest of you the right to storm in like a cheerleader squad to belittle attack and insult everyone.
Is tere some reason why you guys just can't keep your mouths shut ?

Dot Matrix said,

Couple things:

1) Start Menu is dead. It's gone. Kaput. There's no bringing it back either. Lest you want to loose the new multi-mon features, among other things.

2) The Start screen is an excellent idea, even on desktops. I'm in love with the fact that I have a hub to my PC, that I can customize to my liking without having to jump through hoops. Also, I can finally see the icons I'm clinking on on my big screen monitor. Lastly, the live tiles (Like them or not) are a huge step forward for things. It's nice that I can leave my Start up on the screen and walk away from my PC, and know when I get updates without having to sit back down and open each app back up.

That's all good and well. All what you're talking about- updates, customizable tiles, etc are a welcome addition. New features are always good, no one can deny that!

But what I dislike is that all these new things are all forced onto users (it is perhaps better to call them drastic changes rather than features). The old has been torn limb from limb, crippled, with no easy way to bring it back. Familiar ways of doing things have been lost. Settings are scattered about in an unintelligible manner. Things that weren't broken were fixed in an awkward fashion and made utterly unintuitive.

We shall see how Windows 8 is received, but knowing Vista's history and being a realist, I would have to agree with MindTrickz that it is probably going to flop in the desktop market. Only time will tell...

superconductive said,
Familiar ways of doing things have been lost.

It sounds like you don't like change more than anything.

Dot Matrix said,

Couple things:

1) Start Menu is dead. It's gone. Kaput. There's no bringing it back either. Lest you want to loose the new multi-mon features, among other things.

2) The Start screen is an excellent idea, even on desktops. I'm in love with the fact that I have a hub to my PC, that I can customize to my liking without having to jump through hoops. Also, I can finally see the icons I'm clinking on on my big screen monitor. Lastly, the live tiles (Like them or not) are a huge step forward for things. It's nice that I can leave my Start up on the screen and walk away from my PC, and know when I get updates without having to sit back down and open each app back up.

It's almost like you have no idea how things work, are you really so clueless as to believe bringing back the start menu would make other features completely impossible?, I'll make it easier for you, nothing is impossible, anything can be done.

superconductive said,

That's all good and well. All what you're talking about- updates, customizable tiles, etc are a welcome addition. New features are always good, no one can deny that!

But what I dislike is that all these new things are all forced onto users (it is perhaps better to call them drastic changes rather than features). The old has been torn limb from limb, crippled, with no easy way to bring it back. Familiar ways of doing things have been lost. Settings are scattered about in an unintelligible manner. Things that weren't broken were fixed in an awkward fashion and made utterly unintuitive.

We shall see how Windows 8 is received, but knowing Vista's history and being a realist, I would have to agree with MindTrickz that it is probably going to flop in the desktop market. Only time will tell...

Things like "forced upon us" and "vista failed" are IMO daft comments, no one is forcing you to upgrade, you could get years out of Windows 7 still and transition slowly, then in that time you could start to prefer OSx or Linux and switch with no one forcing anything. Things have changed and MS has had to change with them to stay relevant, OSx is slowly going in the same direction - the bigger markets and the changes are demanding radical shifts, the same could be said for the switch to 9x and the current 'windows' we know with the start menu.

Next its the Vista failed thing, Vista didn't fail it sold a lot of licenses but was heavily criticised but for completely different reasons. Drivers were not ready (hardware manufacturers fault (with a nod to the argument that MS changed the driver model late in the game but still the manufacturers could have done way better), pre SP1 had some networking transfer speed issues, along with resource hogging characteristics. Then we have OEMs selling vastly underpowered machines (with as low as 512 Meg of RAM FFS).
All the 'Vista failing' reasons were due to a performance hit people felt, there were not many (if any) major complaints about the slight change in visuals (aero glass and unified search were the main changes and were not major).

Now onto something else, I run the RP of W8 on my dual screen (2 x 1920x1200 22" monitors) at work, We provide IT support and CRM development services, and I can tell you my work rate is no different to slightly better with windows 8.

Booting direct to an information rich start screen which tells me how many emails I have, what calendar appointments I have, social updates and other things is very nice (and yes its not that this itself makes me more productive, its just nice to have instead of a static desktop, and once the apps start coming we'll see a lot more dynamic, live tile based info), I can then just start to type an app or click the tile for the app and I'm then running that app in either desktop mode or modern UI mode depending on what the app is - if desktop I'm back in familiar territory and have my most used apps pinned anyway, but any others I just hit start and type usually, or bottom left corner click and click - easy and hardly any different than before in terms of clicks.

Anytime I open the start screen I can get quick info that the start menu could never give me AND I can click the apps I need OR use unified search. Any deeper 'power user' type stuff is a simple case of right clicking on the start pixel (bottom corner) and hey presto I have comp management, device manager, control panel, etc etc....

So the start screen has zero negative impact on me, and some positive impact with possibly more to come.

Now there are the other changes in 8, I love the deep Microsoft account integration (even on a domain joined PC), the wallpapers and modern settings following me between laptop and pc, the storage system changes, the faster feeling of the OS, and many many more.

JaredFrost said,

It's almost like you have no idea how things work, are you really so clueless as to believe bringing back the start menu would make other features completely impossible?, I'll make it easier for you, nothing is impossible, anything can be done.

Eh? The main reasons the Start Menu was removed was because it couldn't display Modern apps, and that it didn't play nice with new Multi-mon features on the desktop. Bringing it back would be nothing more than a headache for developers since it would require massive rewriting of code, more so than would be needed to continue work on the Dashboard. So, why does it need to come back again?

duddit2 said,

Booting direct to an information rich start screen which tells me how many emails I have, what calendar appointments I have, social updates and other things is very nice (and yes its not that this itself makes me more productive, its just nice to have instead of a static desktop, and once the apps start coming we'll see a lot more dynamic, live tile based info)

just because you like that crap doesn't mean every one should.
I don't want live anything on my desktop ..ever.
remember when Vista come out and you could use movies for a wallpaper etc
Great but its a waste of resources.
And too many people are tech experts but how many actually care about performance enough that they seek out and kill everything they can so they have shell running as minimal as possible ?
My fellow overclockers should know what i'm saying.
I have a philosphy with the PC computer and that is you do not need everything running 24/7 just in case you might wanna run something.
Its pure lazyness when designers do that.
Kinda like how i have to watch my start up entries like a hawk
and remove TONS of crap because every designer thinks their crap
should run when my computer starts up. i disagree and seek and destroy !

If i want a flashing ugly pop-up style live tile / windows thing jammed in my face
i will open my browser and disable the Adblock addon

MS wants to make money thats why they opened a store and then forced it on everyone..

Dot Matrix said,

Eh? The main reasons the Start Menu was removed was because it couldn't display Modern apps, and that it didn't play nice with new Multi-mon features on the desktop. Bringing it back would be nothing more than a headache for developers since it would require massive rewriting of code, more so than would be needed to continue work on the Dashboard. So, why does it need to come back again?

There you go, saying stuff again which makes me think you have no clue how things work.

JaredFrost said,

There you go, saying stuff again which makes me think you have no clue how things work.

How am I saying stuff? That came straight from a Microsoft employee. Are they saying **** too? Because I think that man knows more than you at this point.

Dot Matrix said,

How am I saying stuff? That came straight from a Microsoft employee. Are they saying **** too? Because I think that man knows more than you at this point.

First of all, it's a menu, it's not supposed to display apps, it's a MENU, second, their whole job it to write code, and if they did it properly in the first place they wouldn't need to rewrite it, and coming from a Microsoft employee tells me nothing, Microsoft employes a lot of people in PR, brown nosers and yes men. I am not saying they're all like that, but someone that says things like that shows no vision or can do attitude, there is no -one- way to do something. You need to start thinking outside the tile.

JaredFrost said,

First of all, it's a menu, it's not supposed to display apps, it's a MENU, second, their whole job it to write code, and if they did it properly in the first place they wouldn't need to rewrite it, and coming from a Microsoft employee tells me nothing, Microsoft employes a lot of people in PR, brown nosers and yes men. I am not saying they're all like that, but someone that says things like that shows no vision or can do attitude, there is no -one- way to do something. You need to start thinking outside the tile.

It's not as simple as that. You're calling me ignorant, yet you rant on about brown-nosing. Well, here's some news for you. The original Start Menu code is nearly 20 years old. Think about that for a second. It's basically code that has been dragged from release to release relatively unchanged, minus the XP update. A lot has changed in 20 years. I'd like to see you write code, you'd still use 20 years from now. Any serious developer would laugh at that.

Second of all, yes, the Start Menu was a menu. Not sure what your point is, but one of the ideas behind Metro/Modern are the live tiles. You'd never get them on the Start Menu. Never. How the *HELL* would that work with tablets? Newsflash, Windows 7 failed on touch hardware. Failed. You have a company that wants to unify their services, yet one of their biggest criticisms is that they can never get anything together, now you want them to tear that apart? How the Hell do you unify platforms where the Start Menu would *never* work? You wouldn't use it on a tablet, you wouldn't use it on a Windows Phone, and you would never use it on an Xbox, so the only logical choice is to bring Start to Windows, and hey, it works! It works quite well on the desktop, I love having a dashboard to my PC. It lets me use my PC as I want, while giving me updates that matter. My Start screen, makes my PC *my* PC. It is no longer a stock Start Menu like everyone else has.

There is vision here, a redesign of everything. Unification of everything. I am thinking outside of the tile, that's exactly what the OS does when you compare it to other desktop systems.

Dot Matrix said,

It's not as simple as that. You're calling me ignorant, yet you rant on about brown-nosing. Well, here's some news for you. The original Start Menu code is nearly 20 years old. Think about that for a second. It's basically code that has been dragged from release to release relatively unchanged, minus the XP update. A lot has changed in 20 years. I'd like to see you write code, you'd still use 20 years from now. Any serious developer would laugh at that.

Second of all, yes, the Start Menu was a menu. Not sure what your point is, but one of the ideas behind Metro/Modern are the live tiles. You'd never get them on the Start Menu. Never. How the *HELL* would that work with tablets? Newsflash, Windows 7 failed on touch hardware. Failed. You have a company that wants to unify their services, yet one of their biggest criticisms is that they can never get anything together, now you want them to tear that apart? How the Hell do you unify platforms where the Start Menu would *never* work? You wouldn't use it on a tablet, you wouldn't use it on a Windows Phone, and you would never use it on an Xbox, so the only logical choice is to bring Start to Windows, and hey, it works! It works quite well on the desktop, I love having a dashboard to my PC. It lets me use my PC as I want, while giving me updates that matter. My Start screen, makes my PC *my* PC. It is no longer a stock Start Menu like everyone else has.

There is vision here, a redesign of everything. Unification of everything. I am thinking outside of the tile, that's exactly what the OS does when you compare it to other desktop systems.

The start menu code was rewriten many times over those years, just because it had the same general shape you assume it was the same code.

You're right, I wouldn't use the start menu on a touch device, and NewsFlash I wouldn't use Modern on a non-touch device either

You talk about unifying like it's a good idea, was trying to unify the start menu on a touch device a good idea? yet somehow using a touch UI on a non-touch device is a good idea to you.

Trying to unify the two systems will only create a bastardized mutant child from both worlds, that does neither very well, they need to create either separate editions or allow it to be enabled for touch devices that switches the mode.

And before you whine and complain about resources for both company and system, company resources on such a task would have minor impact on overall profits, and would actually create jobs, system resources is a non-issue because you could have it load completely different system files, this would require a reboot but also minor.

Funny how you talk about wanting to use *your* PC the way you want, yet you try to belittle and brush off other people when they want to use -theirs- the way they want.

There is only a half vision here, a jack of two UIs, master of none.

About the Windows Store and Modern UI: Considering there is huge investment already into it, it isn't going away. And there is no reason to exclude it from the desktop either.

Dot Matrix said,
About the Windows Store and Modern UI: Considering there is huge investment already into it, it isn't going away. And there is no reason to exclude it from the desktop either.

Silly statement is silly, no matter the investment put into something, if it doesn't show the expected returns, they are abandoned, happens all the time.

I expect after MS gets their foot into the mobile market, they'll turn back to the desktop market and either remove it completely, add both options or create separate versions
Just in time to hit the next cycle when businesses upgrade

JaredFrost said,

Silly statement is silly, no matter the investment put into something, if it doesn't show the expected returns, they are abandoned, happens all the time.

I expect after MS gets their foot into the mobile market, they'll turn back to the desktop market and either remove it completely, add both options or create separate versions
Just in time to hit the next cycle when businesses upgrade


Metro/Modern is here to stay as your default interface for all of MS's systems. This isnt going away!

Shadowzz said,

Metro/Modern is here to stay as your default interface for all of MS's systems. This isnt going away!


*rolls eyes* I'm sure you actually believe that, and I feel bad for you.

JaredFrost said,


*rolls eyes* I'm sure you actually believe that, and I feel bad for you.

Yeah MS will crawl back on their major decisions like this because a few FUD spreading fools.

Shadowzz said,

Yeah MS will crawl back on their major decisions like this because a few FUD spreading fools.

They're not. They'll continue working on Modern, until they are ready to release a new services wide shift.

Shadow / Dot

take some history lessons..

MS has flip flopped on MANY design related desisions.
I don't think any of your comments have any merit
your just guessing and stating it as fact. when history tells us
we just don't know what MS will do.. time will tell.

And i can see your pretty butt-hurt that you can't force everyone to like Windows 8 but honestly your not gonna win anyone over until you decide to make some sensible points.
I'd say good effort but sorry it wasn't.
Give it another shot though its all highly amusing lol

If Microsoft manage to close Windows and get to the point where every app has to be approved and certified by them, it's game over for a lot of indies, including Introversion.”

Don't like it, don't make a app for the Store, make a standard Win32 app.... gezzz

xendrome said,

Don't like it, don't make a app for the Store, make a standard Win32 app.... gezzz


This is what i dont understand... How is it developers dont like the fact that all you need to do is keep doing what your doing or do what TeamViewer did...

Its on the MP but installs on the desktop

xendrome said,

Don't like it, don't make a app for the Store, make a standard Win32 app.... gezzz


Unfortunately, that isn't a decent solution for us users who wish to use WinRT apps only. I know I won't be able to yet, but I'd like as many apps as possible that I use to be WinRT apps, and if many developers decided to create desktop apps over WinRT apps, my Windows 8 experience wouldn't be half as good as it could be.

Calum said,

Unfortunately, that isn't a decent solution for us users who wish to use WinRT apps only. I know I won't be able to yet, but I'd like as many apps as possible that I use to be WinRT apps, and if many developers decided to create desktop apps over WinRT apps, my Windows 8 experience wouldn't be half as good as it could be.

Too soon to say this but I doubt that will be the case in the long run. WinRT will see more and more apps, as long as Windows RT tablets do well in the market developers will target them. In the end, all this "win8 is bad for developers" bit is PR BS, they go where the money is and if Windows RT has a userbase that they feel is big enough to target they will shutup and do so because that's how they make their living.

xendrome said,

Don't like it, don't make a app for the Store, make a standard Win32 app.... gezzz


What they are saying is that they are afraid that MS will lock Windows down to the point where their store is the only way on the platform. That is a legitimate concern but unless the RT version gain a lot of popularity that won't happen, I highly doubt MS will ever try locking Windows down like that, for as many who complain now a version of Windows where they did that would see some real problems.

Leonick said,

What they are saying is that they are afraid that MS will lock Windows down to the point where their store is the only way on the platform. That is a legitimate concern but unless the RT version gain a lot of popularity that won't happen, I highly doubt MS will ever try locking Windows down like that, for as many who complain now a version of Windows where they did that would see some real problems.

I don't see them locking it down that much either except for pure WinRT ARM tablets only, but those are sold as a whole device package to the user not as 2 separate things put together (generic x86 hardware and a OS). I think WinRT will be opened up more and more to developers but right now the limitations and having to go through the windows store for every winrt app are probably in place for a few reasons.

First I think it's to get the store going, which makes sense and is good for the platform, 2nd is to do with how young the winrt framework/APIs still are. They lack the maturity and ability to do everything one can with Win32 though they also have things that Win32 can't do, or can but with lots of extra work.

We'll see how it goes in the end but I don't see WinRT replacing Win32 for quite some time, and even then I don't see WinRT being as restricted as it is right now.

GP007 said,

Too soon to say this but I doubt that will be the case in the long run. WinRT will see more and more apps, as long as Windows RT tablets do well in the market developers will target them. In the end, all this "win8 is bad for developers" bit is PR BS, they go where the money is and if Windows RT has a userbase that they feel is big enough to target they will shutup and do so because that's how they make their living.


Great points! I do hope Windows RT ends up being very successful

wah wah wah
Metro is annoying on desktop and looks hideous unless you tone the ugly colors down, but it's still not as bad as this guy makes it out to be. Desktop is still there, runs all Windows 7 apps.

mmjm said,
wah wah wah
Metro is annoying on desktop and looks hideous unless you tone the ugly colors down, but it's still not as bad as this guy makes it out to be. Desktop is still there, runs all Windows 7 apps.

It's why I call the reaction to ModernUI *emotionally-driven* - lest we forget, the original Windows 9x UI was rather dull (in fact, it was accused of being TOO dull).

mmjm said,
wah wah wah
Metro is annoying on desktop and looks hideous unless you tone the ugly colors down, but it's still not as bad as this guy makes it out to be. Desktop is still there, runs all Windows 7 apps.


bad comparisons guys..

you don't go and create Aero, transparency and 3d effects and glassy buttons and icons etc only to click delete and go back to looking like windows 95.
HUGE difference here.
I have seen similar comparisons before and its silly.

And having some dumb looking crap shoved in your face on boot up
is not emotionally driven.. well actually i guess it is because who likes crap jammed in their face ?
You guys wanna make ridiculous comparisons ? so will i..
try this on for size

Windows 8's Start screen is equivalent to a receiving a web browser pop up ad.
And if anyone around here is gonna say they enjoy paying money for pop up ad's then i think your lying.

I am Not PCyr said,
Windows 8's Start screen is equivalent to a receiving a web browser pop up ad.
And if anyone around here is gonna say they enjoy paying money for pop up ad's then i think your lying.

If it were actually showing ads I'd agree with you. But since it's not only giving me quicker access to programs versus going to the desktop first, but also all sorts of useful information depending on what you got pinned, it's not even remotely a fair comparison.

If I website in the article is correct they have ios and android apps which are more locked down than win8.... talk about hypocrites.

jagowar said,
If I website in the article is correct they have ios and android apps which are more locked down than win8.... talk about hypocrites.

It's hip to criticise Windows 8.

jagowar said,
If I website in the article is correct they have ios and android apps which are more locked down than win8.... talk about hypocrites.

I love how they say that this is "game over for a lot of indie devs"

LOL. Apparently iOS and Android killed indie devs too. NOT. There was a huge boom thanks to mobile platforms. Same will be true with Win8

andrewbares said,

I love how they say that this is "game over for a lot of indie devs"

LOL. Apparently iOS and Android killed indie devs too. NOT. There was a huge boom thanks to mobile platforms. Same will be true with Win8

hahaha exactly!!

andrewbares said,

I love how they say that this is "game over for a lot of indie devs"

LOL. Apparently iOS and Android killed indie devs too. NOT. There was a huge boom thanks to mobile platforms. Same will be true with Win8


They're just following these people that you see everywhere, hating on Windows 8... think its cool and hip to follow this. They might just know a bunch of people who are all Windows 8 haters and based on this they're giving a stand. As the hypocrite short sighted fools they are!

Ah well, it'll just bite them in the ass eventually. Theres just a few games in the market, but so far they look really promising, keeping in mind its the first few games on this platform.
Adding to this, MS is in NO way as protective for its market as Apple is. They just screen for malware, crapware and other sh*ts noone really wants. So what are they afraid of? .... this is the thing that makes me wonder a lil

jagowar said,
If I website in the article is correct they have ios and android apps which are more locked down than win8.... talk about hypocrites.

iOS yes, but I'm not sure how Android is any more locked down than Windows? You can install whatever apps you want on Android, the only real difference is "Root" but that doesn't stop you publishing your app to the platform via multiple different stores, which I think is what they're talking about?

Kushan said,
I'm not sure how Android is any more locked down than Windows? You can install whatever apps you want on Android, the only real difference is "Root" but that doesn't stop you publishing your app to the platform via multiple different stores, which I think is what they're talking about?

By *default*, Android is more locked down - though you can free it up, yes.

Kushan said,

iOS yes, but I'm not sure how Android is any more locked down than Windows? You can install whatever apps you want on Android, the only real difference is "Root" but that doesn't stop you publishing your app to the platform via multiple different stores, which I think is what they're talking about?

like windows allows you to install win32 apps from anywhere ?

And their upcoming project is "Prison Architect". (No, I'm not kidding - it's on their site.) If it's a Win32-based simulation (it's similar to other simulation software out there), it will still run on Windows 8 - therefore, his "no thanks" means technically as little as Gabe Newell's.

PGHammer said,
And their upcoming project is "Prison Architect". (No, I'm not kidding - it's on their site.) If it's a Win32-based simulation (it's similar to other simulation software out there), it will still run on Windows 8 - therefore, his "no thanks" means technically as little as Gabe Newell's.

Chances are it'll be a shoddy port. Just like every other Windows app nowadays. It's quite hard to get developers to specifically develop *using newer APIs, mind you* for the Windows ecosystem.

Dot Matrix said,
Intro-who?
ie gog.com would get rich doing this
maker of Witcher 2.. for those who don't have a brain like Intro who..

PatrynXX said,
ie gog.com would get rich doing this
maker of Witcher 2.. for those who don't have a brain like Intro who..

Uh, Witcher/Witcher 2 was CD Projekt. Introversion has made like 6 games. Darwinia was fun for about 10 minutes.

GreyWolf said,

Uh, Witcher/Witcher 2 was CD Projekt. Introversion has made like 6 games. Darwinia was fun for about 10 minutes.


I actually played through Darwinia. The rest of their stuff...not a fan.

GreyWolf said,

Uh, Witcher/Witcher 2 was CD Projekt. Introversion has made like 6 games. Darwinia was fun for about 10 minutes.


Who wouldn't love Darwinia with all its Blair Witch action figures?!

Dot Matrix said,
Intro-who?

The fact that the majority of developers should be comfortable with the platform is really necessary for the success but remains to be seen if this guy represent a large percentage of developers or not.

GreyWolf said,

Uh, Witcher/Witcher 2 was CD Projekt. Introversion has made like 6 games. Darwinia was fun for about 10 minutes.

So what? You still get them the exact same way. NOTHING changed. Their games don't run in Modern anyways. They're just a bunch of crybabies.

Windows 8 will be a LOT BETTER for indie devs actually.

andrewbares said,

So what? You still get them the exact same way. NOTHING changed. Their games don't run in Modern anyways. They're just a bunch of crybabies.

Windows 8 will be a LOT BETTER for indie devs actually.

The only reason this guy is even commenting is to get free publicity and it looks to be working a treat. Any press is good as the old saying goes

Dot Matrix said,
Intro-who?

Am I the only one here who's heard of Introversion? Darwinia, Uplink, DEFCON?

Nobody else has heard of these?

Kushan said,

Am I the only one here who's heard of Introversion? Darwinia, Uplink, DEFCON?

Nobody else has heard of these?

I think I gave uplink a spin at one point, but other than that I believe you're mostly correct, few have and thus it's now the right PR move to make waves about Win8 to get your name out.

Kushan said,
Am I the only one here who's heard of Introversion? Darwinia, Uplink, DEFCON?

Nobody else has heard of these?


I have, and I love playing them. I'm quite surprised at how many people here haven't heard of them, though. I guess there aren't as many gamers around here as I thought...

Kushan said,

Am I the only one here who's heard of Introversion? Darwinia, Uplink, DEFCON?

Nobody else has heard of these?

the only introversion game I cared about was Defcon which I actually bought way back when when it was first released. of course I got the code in a mail which I'mnot sure I can find anymore and even then I think it was a weird deal about installign it. so even if I could find the mail I don't think I could install it again.

Now if they had used the windows app store for the game, a game which could also run perfectly in win8 mode, in fact it would work great there as it pretty much has to be full screen anyway. then I could still play their game, and I might actually even do it.

HawkMan said,
Now if they had used the windows app store for the game...

Or you could use Steam to download it, regardless of the platform you are on (well, minus Linux for the moment)? That's what I did, didn't have a single problem.

Kushan said,

Am I the only one here who's heard of Introversion? Darwinia, Uplink, DEFCON?

Nobody else has heard of these?


Absolutely not! Very refreshing, and thus memorable, game ideas. I expected more from you, Neowin!

Intrinsica said,

Or you could use Steam to download it, regardless of the platform you are on (well, minus Linux for the moment)? That's what I did, didn't have a single problem.


I think I tried that nice, and my code is to old from way back when, and I'd still have to find the mail.