Apple executive: Convergence of iOS and OS X would be a 'waste of energy'

Despite rumors and speculation suggesting the contrary, Apple does not have any plans now or for any point in the future to merge OS X with iOS. Apple executives said that doing so would be a "waste of energy" and indirectly poked a bit of fun at Microsoft's strategy to have one OS for both tablets and desktops.

"We don't waste time thinking, 'But it should be one (interface!) How do you make these (operating systems) merge together?' What a waste of energy that would be," Apple's Senior VP of Worldwide Marketing, Phil Schiller told Macworld in an interview.

"You'll see them be the same where it makes sense, and you'll see them be different in those things that are critical to their essence," added Craig Federighi, Senior VP of Software Engineering. So far this is the stance Apple has already portrayed in both of its operating systems. OS X, for instance, adopted apps like Notes, Reminders, and Messages, plus features like Notification Center all from iOS. However, the apps aren't just ports of their mobile counterparts; the Mac versions are designed with a keyboard and mouse in mind.

It's interesting that Schiller and Federighi both expressed affection for the Mac even in the long term. The late Steve Jobs never quite predicted a phasing out of the Mac, but did once propose the idea that most people in the future would solely use iPads, i.e. tablets.

Source: TechnoBuffalo | Image via Apple

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For modern apps and interface to succeed on the desktop we need to use "Responsive Design" scheme applied to websites. Meaning that the app and interfaces would be intelligent enough to throw a certain UI when using a viewport.

I'm reading between the lines here and seeing them say they don't intend to continue producing non-mobile devices in the future.

Either way what Apple said is stupid because from an interface standpoint they have already started merging the 2, they just have not done it from a coding perspective. Eventually its going to be that way. Personally I think its great if all the stores were combined into one for the Windows stuff so that you only have to buy the app once instead of 3 times (xbox, pc, phone).

Using Mission control as an example, they have slightly merged the two. It gives you the choice as to whether or not you want to use it. It doesn't bitch slap you across the face.

People at MS/GOO don't understand: TV != Desktop != Tablet != Phone != Watch

Bonus:

Apple != Microsoft != Google

Apple is made by designing and engineering people that love technology.
Microsoft is made by managers and only see numbers.
Google is made by crazy and geek people that do useless things.

Microsoft lost 2000s decade and Google / Facebook will lost 2010s decade.

mentas said,
People at MS/GOO don't understand: TV != Desktop != Tablet != Phone != Watch

Bonus:

Apple != Microsoft != Google

Apple is made by designing and engineering people that love technology.
Microsoft is made by managers and only see numbers.
Google is made by crazy and geek people that do useless things.

Microsoft lost 2000s decade and Google / Facebook will lost 2010s decade.

I think in the case of Google they'll eventually run out of steam eventually where as Microsoft is maturing into an IBM of the IT world when you consider the work they're doing in terms of Microsoft Office, Cloud computing, services and so on. Apple make great products and they'll keep hanging around. Google - everything being made is another avenue for them to sell advertising - once you remove advertising out of the picture they have very little in the way of actual income generating.

This is great. This is what should be done. Different devices have different controls, and should have different 'UI's.

I don't want my car to have the same interface as my washing machine!

Well this is true for Apple. Apple are a hardware company, so by separating the concept of a tablet and PC, they've created a new device type, and therefore an extra type of hardware to sell.

JHBrown said,
Thank you Apple. At least some companies still have common sense.

Unfortunately there are far too many people in the world (as seen by some of the shudder inducing replies on this story alone) who fail to realise that if you try to be everything to everyone you'll make no one happy in the end. Windows 8 is an attempt to be everything to everyone and it falls flat on delivering either for the desktop, laptop, tablet, or phone with all but the true believers willing to accept the writing on the wall.

In the case of Apple it would indeed be a waste of energy. OSX is to Apple what WP7 was to Microsoft. Just too much afford for something so insignificant.

iOS is much bigger than OSX at this point. So its easier for Apple to improve iOS. Already more consumers and business use iOS over OSX. Should they continue their growth then eventually they could turn iOS into an OS that also runs on 'full computers'. They have the developer support to make such a transition happen.

Personally I like Microsoft's vision of the future where one OS is adaptable to all platform. At the moment its a bit messy as they have one OS on phones and other shared among tablets and PCs. However its already a huge achievement that they could make Windows running on relatively weak tablets. Just compare W8 to the hardware demanding Vista.

As devices continue to get more powerful and software continues to become lighter Microsoft will find themselves more prepared for the future reality of software than Apple. Soon a developer can develop an app for 'Windows' and it will run on Windows Phone, Windows tablets, Windows laptops and Windows desktops with an UI that adapts to the hardware specifications. Much easier for both developers and thus much cheaper for consumers.

Just imagine connecting your phone to a large monitor and continue working. on your 'personal mobile computer'. It's entirely awesome and only a few years away with Microsoft's progress. Consumers will want a smartphone that comes with Office when it means they can connect it to a monitor and no longer need a seperate PC.

Edited by Ronnet, Jan 24 2014, 11:05am :

Apple: we lost this battle long ago with OSX so let's pretend we're right and just accept OSX has no future and not waste any time on it. Apple is iOS. there is nothing but iOS in their radar, and if iOS doesn't recover from the android blows, iOS will be the new OSX...in the phone space is about to dip to single digits with the latest IDC numbers putting it as just 13%.

Remember this is coming from the company that originally wanted OS X to run on the iPad.

If Apple could get OS X tight enough to run on ARM or other low end hardware, they would have already converged OS X and iOS.

MAC OS X will die if Apple doesn't act soon. It's been stagnant for years GUI wise. In 10 years time, I see Apple at an impasse with it as consumer move to new devices.

Sure Dot. OSX is not going anywhere. What I currently see is Microsoft back pedaling on their great Modern UI. Yes Modern will be around, but Microsoft is tweaking it to please the majority. If anything, the Windows 8 series will die very quickly.

JHBrown said,
Sure Dot. OSX is not going anywhere. What I currently see is Microsoft back pedaling on their great Modern UI. Yes Modern will be around, but Microsoft is tweaking it to please the majority. If anything, the Windows 8 series will die very quickly.

Backpedaling? Where? Last I saw Metro was still very much a part of Windows 8.1, and the upcoming Update 1. Metro "2.0" is also rumored to be part of "Windows 9". Microsoft is also continuing to unify their services across its platforms. Not to mention, A Metro Office suite is still being developed.

Really? Apple will DIE if they do NOT merge iOS and OS X? Again, laptop/desktops are NOT tablets/phones. Why can't you get that through your head? Who the hell cares if the desktop UI sticks around for 10 more years? It is out of the way and lets people get their business done. Apple has said many times that they will not add touch screens to a laptop or desktop.

benthebear said,

Return of the Start button. Talks of bringing back the Start Menu...

The only place I hear this talk of the start menu is here on Neowin. No one else is making these claims. The rumors I believe to be correct are the ones stating that this "menu" will be an addition to the start screen.

Well now ... this post makes a lot of sense, actually no it doesn't, it just makes sense because it's coming out of your mouth. Not only have you been praising the UI that a lot of people can't stand, now you are telling Apple that if they don't change their UI to accommodate touch that OSX is going to die. News flash, most people don't want a touch UI on their desktop / non touch devices and Apple knows it.

If Windows 8 was a religion you would be the Pope!

warwagon said,
Well now ... this post makes a lot of sense, actually no it doesn't, it just makes sense because it's coming out of your mouth. Not only have you been praising the UI that a lot of people can't stand, now you are telling Apple that if they don't change their UI to accommodate touch that OSX is going to die. News flash, most people don't want a touch UI on their desktop / non touch devices and Apple knows it.

If Windows 8 was a religion you would be the Pope!

Where is Metro just a touch UI? It's only a touch UI because you're making it one. It's more than just a touch capable UI.

I could guarantee that by 2025, mouse only UIs will be a thing of the past.

Dot Matrix said,
Where is Metro just a touch UI? It's only a touch UI because you're making it one. It's more than just a touch capable UI.

I could guarantee that by 2025, mouse only UIs will be a thing of the past.

Yes because we'll all be using big see through touch screen boards like on CSI Miami - Jesus Christ someone tell me that Dot Matrix is a troll because god knows I'm losing my faith in humanity pretty damn quickly at this stage.

Mr Nom Nom's said,

Yes because we'll all be using big see through touch screen boards like on CSI Miami - Jesus Christ someone tell me that Dot Matrix is a troll because god knows I'm losing my faith in humanity pretty damn quickly at this stage.

Touch, among other dynamic input devices. If you guys can't see past that mouse of yours, then I feel sorry for you.

warwagon said,
Well now ... this post makes a lot of sense, actually no it doesn't, it just makes sense because it's coming out of your mouth. Not only have you been praising the UI that a lot of people can't stand, now you are telling Apple that if they don't change their UI to accommodate touch that OSX is going to die. News flash, most people don't want a touch UI on their desktop / non touch devices and Apple knows it.

If Windows 8 was a religion you would be the Pope!

I just need to quote this for truth!

Computers are getting smaller and smaller. Sooner or later, Apple will have to change course as desktops are phased out for tablets or something else.

Microsoft and Apple are heading in different directions, but both are the right directions, i'm just hoping for more of the same i'm enjoying using both platforms more than ever, 8.1 was enough for me to step slightly out of the Apple circle, Apple has just pinched it with the beautiful integration of iOS and OSX but also expecting greater things from MS.

Good, I am glad. I don't want tablet and desktop/laptop OS's merged. Imagine what sort of horrible OS that would be. No one wants that.

Hmm, not sure what happened to my comment...

Anyway, just mentioning again that I enjoy using BOTH Win 8 and OS X. I guess this makes me a true computing enthusiast...

However, a lot of Neowinians are fanatics that are pointing-device-centered - they have a pronounced dread of hybrid hardware, or an OS that can run ON such hardware. Seriously - how much jiggering would OS X need to adopt to the addition of touch-screens? Surprisingly little from a UI point of view, and even less from a hardware POV. But "oh noes - my pointing-device bias is under siege, whaaaa" - please. Let's face some facts - most system-recovery tasks (in OS X) can't be done with a mouse at all; instead, you not only have to go into the OS X equivalent of safe mode, but all the way into command-line mode for most system-recovery tasks. (No - it's not just the case with "Hacks" - this is something that also happens with real Macs; the iMac with iSight I did a mini-review of (Apple Products and Support Forum) came in for exactly that reason - disk corruption. This wasn't even an Intel-based iMac - but a PPC-based iMac; however, troubleshooting this problem is exactly identical; however, how many Mac users with no "Hack" background can?) Apple's marketing flacks don't DARE even hint that they are considering following Microsoft - the fanatics would lynch them. (The fanatics are a greater amount of Apple's users - in terms of percentage - than they are of even the Windows user community - and that is despite the sheer size differences between the two.) What has happened is that the fanatics on the WINDOWS side are showing themselves.

People seem to try and paint Apple and MS as the same type of company and therefor their choices can be directly compared.

I just don't think that is the case.

Apple does what is in the best interest of Apple and MS does what is in the best interest of MS.

Based on Apple's business model and strategy, it makes perfect sense that they would avoid a strategy like MS has chosen. Apple has the luxury of a mature and popular smartphone/tablet OS. That is where they make their money, not Macs. Macs are a luxury item for them, something they can update a little bit here and there and just make extra cash from, even in low volume. Their golden goose so to speak is in mobile. So even if Mac sales drop along with the rest of the pc market, Apple is not hurt that much, hence the lack of interest on their part to do anything drastic to change course. Why rock the boat?

So what about MS? Well MS has a different business model and strategy to Apple. For one thing, they simply do more in more markets than Apple. Their core business has been centered around traditional pcs, so that is where they make most of their money. Unfortunately, they don't have a mature mobile platform that is at least as popular as Apple, so they had to basically start from scratch there. Then MS sees the pc market contracting, even before Win 8 was a thing. They see the rise of the tablet and smartphone as the primary device that people use day to day take the place of the old desktop. They see people holding on to their pcs for much longer then in the past. So they take the risk and decide they must change course now or risk a slow death sitting idle in a dying market.

MS believes that they cannot just create a second OS for mobile at the time due to WP's lack of traction at the time and the non-existent tablet market for windows. They believe that they must instead extend a single Windows OS across all screens and that requires building on top of the standard desktop os. It allows them to focus on one code base and over time, build a mature mobile platform that can also allow the standard desktop to evolve as the market demands. It basically buys them time to mature the new mobile UI since its merely part of an already mature desktop OS. They can leverage what they have so far to start growing a smartphone and tablet market.

I really think both strategies can pay off. As long as Apple can keep pushing iPhones and iPads and maybe trickle down some of their features to laptops or desktops over time, they can ride their wave of success.

As long as MS pushes hard to improve Metro, make it more mature, more flexible, more powerful from an API standpoint, and more seamlessly interactable with a desktop environment, then their strategy can work. They are taking all the heat right now and the negative feedback, but I really think this is a necessary process for MS. Their enemy is time at this point. I don't know how long they have to get to a certain level of success, but you know they have to be trying to get this rolling forward as quickly as possible. They seem to be very close to the big steps that we have heard hinted about. A true shared core between Windows proper, WP, Windows RT, and the Xbox One with a shared app marketplace and a shared set of tools for developers. That's when all of the issues leading up to that should seem worth it. Will we make it there? We will see.

An honest-to-goodness non-fanboy intelligent insightful comment. Very well written.

Say, at what point do we stop calling it a comment and start calling it an article (seems to be longer than what George wrote above!)?

Good point, maybe I should have made a forum post. I just had a thought that seemed to be great for this article.

I realize that long comments are often frowned upon or ignored completely, but I got carried away.

I disagree on your assessment of Apple in regards to Mac's - it is noted that it would still be a pretty big company even if the Mac portion of the business were spun off into an independent entity so it isn't as though it isn't pulling its weight. When you also take into account for almost a year there was a rumours and then eventual waiting for the new Mac Pro to launch plus almost 4 years of Mac Pro stagnating I think that what we're seeing is a focus back on getting those fundamentals right when it comes to the Mac platform - MacBook Pro 'Retina' for the high end laptop, MacBook Air for Entry, Mac mini for SOHO servers and entry level desktop, iMac for the mid range and Mac Pro for the high end professional. Now that they've got something out there you'll start seeing people more willing to upgrade their fleet of Mac's knowing there is light at the end of the tunnel - that they actually value their professional cliental (rumours regarding Apple killing off the Mac Pro didn't help given that the Mac Pro does have a halo effect in terms of Mac sales to the creative sector).

Mr Nom Nom's said,
I disagree on your assessment of Apple in regards to Mac's - it is noted that it would still be a pretty big company even if the Mac portion of the business were spun off into an independent entity so it isn't as though it isn't pulling its weight. When you also take into account for almost a year there was a rumours and then eventual waiting for the new Mac Pro to launch plus almost 4 years of Mac Pro stagnating I think that what we're seeing is a focus back on getting those fundamentals right when it comes to the Mac platform - MacBook Pro 'Retina' for the high end laptop, MacBook Air for Entry, Mac mini for SOHO servers and entry level desktop, iMac for the mid range and Mac Pro for the high end professional. Now that they've got something out there you'll start seeing people more willing to upgrade their fleet of Mac's knowing there is light at the end of the tunnel - that they actually value their professional cliental (rumours regarding Apple killing off the Mac Pro didn't help given that the Mac Pro does have a halo effect in terms of Mac sales to the creative sector).


Fair enough, but in the eyes of the public and investors, it seems like the focus is on their smartphone and tablet business.

It doesn't mean the Mac side is nothing, it just means that its not the primary focus. Certainly, Apple does not treat the Mac side like its as important as the mobile side, so that helps send the signal about what the focus is. As I said, Apple only needs to make modest upgrades across their line of Mac systems to generate interest and new sales, so they have little incentive to say make any bold changes or change their strategy.

Apple will change its tune, just like the market forced it to change it's tune re the iPad Mini (it was Jobs that said "we don't think you can make a great tablet with a 7-inch screen"), and soon it will again as it produces larger iPhones (again "Steve Jobs indirectly attacked the new group of large smart phones that have been coming onto the market calling them “Hummers” and claiming that “No one is going to buy them.”).

I predict that someday Apple will have to make a hybrid, because more and more people want to take their desktop power with them. And that's when two OS's won't make sense. I'm not talking about iOS hybrids, I mean real, content-producing, fully-capable, powerful OSX machines that will provide touch as well as mouse and keyboard support.

MS will be light years ahead at that point in time, having been the innovative creators of a complete OS that is great on the desktop, like when my SP2 is docked, and equally great as a touch-screen portable device, like my SP2 when I'm mobile. Keep in mind that W8 started that transition, 8.1 built on it, and in a few more iterations (like the iPad, which started as crap, relatively speaking) it will be superb.

Apple can act like they don't want to do it, or that it's "a waste of energy", but the truth is that they are so far behind MS, that they can't do it. The only thing missing here is another Steve Jobs quote that will be proven wrong in short order, so Phil Schiller will have to do.

Edited by Otto Gunter, Jan 24 2014, 5:06am : add Phil Schiller

It's just a matter of time. If windows 9 really become the mainstream of computing with metro 2.0 then Apple will force to consider whether or not OS X and iOS should be merged in the future.

Otto Gunter said,

MS will be light years ahead at that point in time, having been the innovative creators

Apple can act like they don't want to do it, or that it's "a waste of energy", but the truth is that they are so far behind MS,

I laughed when I read these.

I agree that soon, a phone/tablet will become the basis of a PC system/s.

1) They can have their 'desktop power' with them - its called a laptop or aren't laptops cool for people like you who seem to make decisions based on what is and isn't cool rather than what does and doesn't make sense in the real world?
2) Touch screens are a gimmick - beyond demonstrations and initial buzz at the store I see very few people actually use the touch screen functionality once they get home.

What are you smoking?
1) If I made "decisions based on what is and isn't cool rather than what does and doesn't make sense in the real world", I'd own a MacBook. Well, I don't.
2) "Touch screens are a gimmick... I see very few people actually use the touch screen functionality once they get home." Hello?? Heard of this new fangled gadget called the iPad?

i hope to god they don't style os x the in the same visual style as iOS7. even if they keep the desktops aspect i really don't want flat and everything blarring white on my 27" imac

Co_Co said,
i hope to god they don't style os x the in the same visual style as iOS7. even if they keep the desktops aspect i really don't want flat and everything blarring white on my 27" imac

the mac base us so small, even if they all hate it, nobody will notice.

neonspark said,

the mac base us so small, even if they all hate it, nobody will notice.


HA! you think you're funny. i like jokes.

sure macs don't have any marketshare in many households due to cost/parents money, or business due to old people working there/business specific software made for win2000 or xp.

walk into any college lecture and you will see 50/50 split and sometimes more macs than pcs
example: http://images.fastcompany.com/...s-using-macs-apple-9133.jpg

neonspark said,

the mac base us so small, even if they all hate it, nobody will notice.

While I personally I do not care for Apple there is one crucial point you are missing: companies, each and all of them, have a simple goal: generate profits. MS has its strategy which is different than Apple one but both achieve the above mentioned goal.
Simple as that...

you just need to get over it. nobody cares about OSX. if people did, that's what you'd see everywhere. when they ditched system 9 and moved to ten, the world didn't care. heck, can anybody even name the current version of it? go ask the regular joe if they even know it, or care for it.

in the post pc world, a pc OS like OSX that failed to gain traction is as irrelevant as it gets. apple could ditch it tomorrow and only david pogue would make a big deal out of it.

neonspark said,
you just need to get over it. nobody cares about OSX. if people did, that's what you'd see everywhere. when they ditched system 9 and moved to ten, the world didn't care. heck, can anybody even name the current version of it? go ask the regular joe if they even know it, or care for it.

in the post pc world, a pc OS like OSX that failed to gain traction is as irrelevant as it gets. apple could ditch it tomorrow and only david pogue would make a big deal out of it.

You highly underestimate the prominence of OS X. But go on, live in a world where only Pogie cares about it.

neonspark said,
you just need to get over it. nobody cares about OSX. if people did, that's what you'd see everywhere. when they ditched system 9 and moved to ten, the world didn't care. heck, can anybody even name the current version of it? go ask the regular joe if they even know it, or care for it.

in the post pc world, a pc OS like OSX that failed to gain traction is as irrelevant as it gets. apple could ditch it tomorrow and only david pogue would make a big deal out of it.

Yeah, people don't care so much that they'll download themes and patches for Windows to make it look like an operating system they don't care about.

MS had simply changed its course just for the sake of change. This whole one OS fit all concept is hugely flawed to begin with. The use of desktop OS to table OS is completely difference. I am sure MS is not dumb enough to understand this concept but here is the catcher. They were so late in the tablet market they decided to piggy back on Desktop OS. It was huge gamble played by Stevenfosky and Ballmer which badly failed.

Shoehorning crap on Desktop did not bring then any significant new client but it definitely ****eed traditional desktop users. MS tried to change its course through 8.1 but was not enough to really plug the drain. Almost everyone related to Win 8 doomed project had been either fired, moved or laid off including almighty buffon Ballmer.

Now new rumour of bringing start menu back and letting Metro crap run on desktop optionally shows MS is waking up and might have learned their lesson in a hard way. They had realized they are not as monopolistic as they had tend to believe.

Apple strategy over here is definitely by merit and they had been smart to keep desktop and tablet OS separate. Now wonder Apple innovate and MS imitate albeit poorly.

For all the energy you spent on this, you forget OSX is a non event, and IOS is just 10% points from WP, and iPad market share has tumbled. IPhone is stuck in the mud under a stigma of old people's OS. If apple is so great and right, why can't they claim dominance in ANY market? Seem like their stupid strategy failed.

neonspark said,
For all the energy you spent on this, you forget OSX is a non event, and IOS is just 10% points from WP, and iPad market share has tumbled. IPhone is stuck in the mud under a stigma of old people's OS. If apple is so great and right, why can't they claim dominance in ANY market? Seem like their stupid strategy failed.

OSX as per you is non event because Apple chose it to be. They cater certain segment of market and they are making healthy profit out of it. Don't forget though Windows huge market share is not because of Tiled interface but two decade of aggressive marketing, arm twisting and some what open system to install on any hardware.

What Apple and Google sell tablet and smartphone in a quarter, MS can't even match those number in a whole year. Android is in a same position right now as MS was with Windows almost two decade back. MS will keep fumbling like this in near future unless they get someone with vision and above all some common sense as next MS CEO.

neonspark said,
For all the energy you spent on this, you forget OSX is a non event, and IOS is just 10% points from WP, and iPad market share has tumbled. IPhone is stuck in the mud under a stigma of old people's OS. If apple is so great and right, why can't they claim dominance in ANY market? Seem like their stupid strategy failed.

As opposed to what, the energy you spent commenting all over the place crapping on Apple? I'm not out to defend the company, but it looks mighty childish when you can't handle a news article or even so much as another person having just a slightly different opinion from your own.

Auditor said,
Now wonder Apple innovate and MS imitate albeit poorly.

What about Apple's strategy is innovation? It's the same stuff they've been pushing forever, but now with a Microsoft "metro" influence.

What about Microsoft's strategy is imitation? Like it or not, you have to admit they are being very bold and innovative. They are charting their own course and creating their own design language and style. Everyone is taking notice.

There is a reason why everyone from Apple and Google to the Weather Channel are imitating Microsoft's design language right now.

This is just Apple playing it safe and attempting to take advantage of a little bumpiness in Microsoft's rollout. In the meantime, they're just being left behind. They think it's still the 2000's. It's not, and that's why they are going to get trounced by Microsoft and Google. They start out strong, but always finish weak.

are you kidding me, apple spend decades trying to sell OSX to the masses and failed every time. before that it was system 9 and 8 before it. each time failed. People just don't want macs. Apple tried everything and not once have they hit double digits marketshare in the pc space since...well windows 95 probably.

You can argue windows is dominant because it comes pre-shipped, well the same is true of android and if apple had been smart enough, it would have beat android to the punch and partner with OEMs. then we may actually see an iOS marketshare of 80% as android has now instead of apple recently being as low as 13% and in some markets like Italy actually fallen behind windows phone.

quite simply apple can't lead in the phone space any longer, android simply cannot be challenged by iOS any more than the mac was ever able to challenge windows.

your observations of google are correct. they are very dominant, but chromebooks have failed time and time again, not even reaching OSX mediocre marketshare. Windows 8 and 9 are a direct threat to google which still struggling in large devices and proof is the nexus 10 as a sales flop selling less than surface RT!!!!. Lastly don't forget rumors of windows being free to OEMs in the consumer space, and you can really see android having a real fight. will they lose? who knows, but one thing is clear: apple is no longer challenging anybody. this is between google, and MSFT and apple has all but sidelined at this point.

if this has happened to MSFT or google, we'd be writing their obituary. but because it is apple, people over look it. Yet the marketshare numbers don't lie: apple has dropped the most of any after dominating near 80% of both smart phones and tablets markets. by any standards, iOS is plunging into irrelevance. And this should worry apple. MSFT owns the enterprise, windows is not even the #1 revenue maker, and most of windows revenues are enterprise regardless. google has ads. apple has NOTHING to fall back on. nothing. every drop in marketshare is a foot in the grave.

neonspark said,
For all the energy you spent on this, you forget OSX is a non event, and IOS is just 10% points from WP, and iPad market share has tumbled. IPhone is stuck in the mud under a stigma of old people's OS. If apple is so great and right, why can't they claim dominance in ANY market? Seem like their stupid strategy failed.

I like how you've been using Apple's market share as the determining factor for their products being a nonevent or failing, but you say nice things about Windows Phone when it has a global market share of just 3.6%. Doesn't that, like, knock the soap box out from under you?

I've mentioned this before, but I never thought I would see the day where someone tries to use Apple's small market share number as proof that it sucks, while defending Microsoft that has similar numbers.

Yet the marketshare numbers don't lie: apple has dropped the most of any after dominating near 80% of both smart phones and tablets markets. by any standards, iOS is plunging into irrelevance.

How is iOS plunging into irrelevancy? The smartphone market is not a saturated market. It continues to grow, and iOS continues to grow with it.

Your problem is that you only look at the market share percentages, and not the other numbers that need to be factored in. You're also ignoring iOS's growing install base. iPhone sales are up. Each year, Apple sells more iPhones than they did the previous year. Market share wise, they might be down a few points in a quarter or two, which shows that other players in the market are gaining traction, but sales continue to climb, while Apple still takes most of the revenue that the smart phone market generates.

I'm happy to hear this news but I wish that they had figured this out before they messed up Pages, Keynote and Numbers in their effort to make them like the iPad versions.

Just to play devil's advocate here. Having an operating system which is one of the same isn't necessarily an entirely bad concept. If you have different systems running under the same OS, while having the user interface change depending on the environment that it is operating under, It cuts down on development overhead by a significant amount, and potentially allow them to iron out the fragmentation problem once and for all. Any application that was developed for one platform can easily be slightly tweaked to work on another.

Now obviously Windows phone is extremely minimalistic, so quite a lot of windows could be trimmed out, and you could have the Windows phone environment just run winRT applications which are tailored for the mobile UI. Also, because everything is running under the same code base, adding new features to the different environments can be as simple as including the code which is present in the other. It also means that as features are being implemented on one platform, It can simply just be given a UI which is more relevant for the other environments and plugged right in. This allows each environment to feed off of each other, as features and apps are developed for the underlying operating system over time.

Another thing Microsoft could do which can potentially revolutionize the tablet space, is open up Windows RT to use the full set of Windows APIs if the user so chooses. This allows the wealth of Windows applications which are currently available to be accessible on ARM processors, after being recompiled for the architecture. This was something that I found quite useful when the open source community started making homebrew desktop apps by using the jailbreak.

I completely agree with you, the potential base for something really exciting is definitely there. A lot hinges on Microsoft's ability to push forward and implement the roadmap you've laid out, do it fast and do it well. Will they finally learn to act as a cohesive whole with a single vision and get the synergy between their platforms right? We'll see. That said, well written.

Apple has a good strategy that has worked really well for them. No reason for them to change it. MS can pull their model off if the rumored changes in Win8 are true.

It's always good to see one side of opponent like microsoft decided taking it with different direction by the idea of convergence.

First of all, Windows 8 metro is also cozily usable with mouse and keyboard. It's the best of both worlds and if it doesn't mess with the computer performance then it's not a bad idea at all.

Once you used ModernMix which allow metro application to run on desktop then i don't any problem of adopting metro UI and Application.

As for apple, i can understand why they dispelled the idea about convergence of iOS and OS X. If the iPad able to use all OS X application then the mac sales will dramatically decrease and hurting the huge chunk of that profit.

Personally I prefer Microsoft's strategy, I just wish it was going a bit more smoothly. Overall I'm happy with Windows 8.1 and Windows Phone 8 (as well as excited to see what future releases for both platforms will bring).

+1, I prefer Microsofts. Not the exact same OS on each device, but the same under the hood with a different UI layer for the device.

Grinch said,
Personally I prefer Microsoft's strategy, I just wish it was going a bit more smoothly. Overall I'm happy with Windows 8.1 and Windows Phone 8 (as well as excited to see what future releases for both platforms will bring).

I definately think it was a rough start. But looking at the progress between W8 and 8_1, its very encouraging. I see w9 bringing the whole idea cozy with consumers. On the other hand, im very dissapointed with windows phone progress and hope they try a little harder.

ZipZapRap said,
+1, I prefer Microsofts. Not the exact same OS on each device, but the same under the hood with a different UI layer for the device.

Isn't that what Apple is doing?

CSheep said,

Isn't that what Apple is doing?

Yes, both are based on the Mach kernel, if this is what you're referring to. However, they have much more separated ecosystems than you see in Windows 8 so to the end-user they're "separate".

Northgrove said,

Yes, both are based on the Mach kernel, if this is what you're referring to. However, they have much more separated ecosystems than you see in Windows 8 so to the end-user they're "separate".

They are 'based' on the same kernel, they are NOT running the same kernel.

Apple tries to get people, even developers, to believe that iOS's kernel is OS X, and it simply is not.

iOS provides some of the same APIs, but the code behind those APIs is considerably different than OS X, often using a less featured path to provide the function, if not just using the same naming convention with little to no code behind it depending on if the feature is truly available on iOS.

They make what iOS exposes to look like OS X, but it simply isn't.

They're as close as they need to be, both are built on the same base, we don't need a mess like Windows 8's metro screen

Rudy said,
They're as close as they need to be, both are built on the same base, we don't need a mess like Windows 8's metro screen

launch control is 10x worse

Rudy said,
They're as close as they need to be, both are built on the same base, we don't need a mess like Windows 8's metro screen

That's good for you. Move on.

neonspark said,

launch control is 10x worse

It's called Launchpad, and Launchpad is optional. My mother uses it all the time, I almost never use it. I use stacks or Spotlight because I use shortcuts.

Start screen is not really optional…

Both suck, Stacks is very annoying and Launchpad is ok. Anyhow, since I got my Windows 8.1 Start Screen configured and optimized to my needs, I prefer it over what OSX currently offers.

neonspark said,

launch control is 10x worse
I've used OSX as my main OS (and mostly only OS) for 9 years and to be honest I used LaunchPad once when I installed Lion, that's it. Launching apps in OSX is something a lot of people do differently, personally I stick the Applications folder in the dock and set it to Grid

And keyboards, mice and a stylus don't work on tablets I am guessing?

I disagree with the lack of unification of interface. A app for a small screen doesn't have to be 100% identical on my Windows Phone as it does on the my tablet or on my desktop. But still love the uniformity elsewhere. Sure, I don't use touch every day in Windows 8, but there are days I miss it on the the other Windows 8 devices I use that don't have it. Options. That is what MS provides in touch capabilities.

Think I read about phone or tablet that would have motion tracking like the Xbox eventually. Betting the interface of Windows 8 will work quite well with that if it comes into existence.

Apple will not make touch support in Mac OS until the sales of Mac computers even comes close to the iPad/iPod/iPhone sales.

ZEROarmy said,
Too bad Microsoft doesn't have this level of common sense.
Touch OSes do not work on a desktop computer!

Which is why my desktop doesn't have Windows Phone 8 on it. It does however have Windows 8.1 on it which works brilliantly.

trparky said,
See Microsoft? This is how it should be done. A desktop OS and a tablet/mobile OS. NOT WINDOWS 8!

marketshare win 8 > OSX. Who is right again?

neonspark said,
marketshare win 8 > OSX. Who is right again?

Microsoft could crap out a turd and still have more marketshare due to the way they do business with OEMs. A turd is still a turd though.

(for the record, I like Windows 8.1 but I do admire the way Apple's handled their operating systems)

Yes, Microsoft made a mistake that they're now trying to repair by allowing Metro app launches (and probably later running them) from within the Desktop environment, and perhaps separate the two further since people will then get even more comfortable not with Metro, but staying in Desktop. Microsoft is backtracking in their push of Metro as a new unified UI, as a way forward, so yes, I think Windows 8(.0) was largely a "waste of energy". It was the wrong bet. Apple never even went there to begin with. They knew it was stupid.

In Windows 9, Desktop will probably be very useful and separated with the new boot-into-desktop mode already in place since the emergency release Windows 8.1, and Metro living its own life next to it... But then Microsoft could just as well have built two separate operating systems, and they're essentially back to square one.

Unless people actually do want to run Metro -- sorry, Modern UI -- apps from within the Desktop interface and look forward to this with excitement. But I haven't heard a single one, because they assume a different input method and are often dumbed down.

Beats me why they didn't make a Windows 8 Tablet Edition and Windows 8 Desktop Edition. They're working with different devices with different demands from the interface! I'm not even saying this in hindsight; I've said this all the time. So funny to see Edition-happy Microsoft suddenly NOT release only two editions where they would really matter.

Edited by Northgrove, Jan 24 2014, 8:10am :

neonspark said,

marketshare win 8 > OSX. Who is right again?


Huh? PC is dropping in sales, Macs are gaining.

All you're saying is that if you drop the price of PC computers to meet the budget and amateur market needs as well, which Apple is now missing out, then this is a sign they are making a better operating system....

Marketshare doesn't tell everything. Apple has been all about building a valuable brand and reaching customer satisfaction (which has actually been dropping the past 2 years, so you should look in this direction instead if you want to criticize Apple where they're actually trying hard).

Or using your argument technique... "Stock value AAPL > MSFT. Who is right again?" (but this one is silly too -- the stock market also doesn't speak of the current situation, and is also a lot about history)

rustix said,
Market share isn't the ideal decision maker here

I see, so market share doesn't matter when we're talking about OSX but the moment one mentions windows phone then it is ALL that matters. do you know what this type of flip flopping is called?

Northgrove said,

Huh? PC is dropping in sales, Macs are gaining.

All you're saying is that if you drop the price of PC computers to meet the budget and amateur market needs as well, which Apple is now missing out, then this is a sign they are making a better operating system....

Marketshare doesn't tell everything. Apple has been all about building a valuable brand and reaching customer satisfaction (which has actually been dropping the past 2 years, so you should look in this direction instead if you want to criticize Apple where they're actually trying hard).

Or using your argument technique... "Stock value AAPL > MSFT. Who is right again?" (but this one is silly too -- the stock market also doesn't speak of the current situation, and is also a lot about history)

well according to pretty much every OS stat out there, the mac is squarely sitting in the same irrelevant spot it was for the past two decades. you can talk all you want about the mac come back, that every year it is the same story, and every year, apple just sinks further into iOS dependency to the point where the mac has become the zune: it just needs to be put down for its own good.

seeing how flat iOS and android have become, "Metro" really is just standard these days. the reality is that windows store apps on the desktop will be huge. they actually look fantastic and run smoother than win32 apps. try modern mix and you'll get it.

neonspark said,

marketshare win 8 > OSX. Who is right again?

Always bringing up market share! Like another member said, Microsoft is in a position to bring ant OS they feel like, and they would still have the most marketshare. Marketshare says nothing about your product.

Using technology as a religion will have bad results in the end. People are more happy when they have a positive open mind in the technology world. Give it a shot buddy, you will like it. :-)

trparky said,
See Microsoft? This is how it should be done. A desktop OS and a tablet/mobile OS. NOT WINDOWS 8!

Too early to call. MS stumbled out of the gate but they're headed In right direction. It just taking a while and devs aren't producing many hi quality apps, yet. But with many hardware sources and cool cheap tablets like the dell venue and Lenovo miix 8s, when ms releases the scaled down finger friendly modern office apps (and they will, , they will surge. It's just a matter of how long it will take, not if. When they get their rdp app on wp8 their phablets will surge as well.

trparky said,
See Microsoft? This is how it should be done. A desktop OS and a tablet/mobile OS. NOT WINDOWS 8!

I don't see how an OS that can scale and be adapted to multiple form factors is a bad thing. Microsoft may have been overzealous in pushing Modern on stationary form factors (although I do like it) but it seems to me that one OS that can run the same software set on multiple types of machines is the way to go.

Northgrove said,

Huh? PC is dropping in sales, Macs are gaining.

Microsoft don't make PCs. They sell software and services that run on them...and a lot of other devices that they do have a hand in making, which are growing strongly in sales.

neonspark said,
I see, so market share doesn't matter when we're talking about OSX but the moment one mentions windows phone then it is ALL that matters. do you know what this type of flip flopping is called?

If you want people to quit bitching about marketshare, you should lead by example and quit using it as a tool to demonstrate who is "better" yourself. What's better is entirely subjective anyway, as what works for one person may not work for the other. I don't see why we have to fight about what other people choose to buy and use; it's not like it's our money being spent...

virtorio said,
It'll be interesting to see how these comments play out.
I prefer Apple's strategy.

Don't understand why Apple said that because if you see what they doing with OS X is basically trying to copy iOS and the functionality of iOS into the core and experience. Microsoft made a small mistake in putting both UI into the core of Windows 8 but i think it makes sense because if you wants the modern ui and you like the apps. You can use it instead of the regular desktop mode.

Mr.XXIV said,
Did you really just say copy?

Are you having difficulty understanding the word copy? Hint: he didn't say illegally copy.

macoman said,
trying to copy iOS and the functionality of iOS into the core
Examples? The one iOS-ish thing in OS X is Launch Pad, and that's just a program, integrated with a couple of system services, which you can delete.

virtorio said,
It'll be interesting to see how these comments play out.
I prefer Apple's strategy.

I would watch what Apple are actually doing rather than post to try and take credit from the apple 'marketing vice president', if you think Apple do not have a touch friendly OS/X on their minds then you are probably almost certainly underestimating Apple ... while apple marketing machine are casting uncertainty and doubt on Microsoft (note: windows revenue was up 12% reported yesterday), they will be doing R&D while taking note on what works and what doesn't work.

Deviate_X said,

I would watch what Apple are actually doing rather than post to try and take credit from the apple 'marketing vice president', if you think Apple do not have a touch friendly OS/X on their minds then you are probably almost certainly underestimating Apple ... while apple marketing machine are casting uncertainty and doubt on Microsoft (note: windows revenue was up 12% reported yesterday), they will be doing R&D while taking note on what works and what doesn't work.

There is a difference between having a "touch friendly UI", and merging OSX and iOS.

I get what people are saying that its a mistake. And in some ways it is because they have refined Windows 8 features and make a far better Windows 8.1. And the first update for 8.1 seems even better!

However, if you ever get a chance to play with Dell Venue Pro or a the new Lenovo atom tablet Windows 8.1 makes a heck of a lot of sense then. Desktop power/programs with a slim, sleek tablet. Its actually really, really nice =).

virtorio said,
Examples? The one iOS-ish thing in OS X is Launch Pad, and that's just a program, integrated with a couple of system services, which you can delete.

Since Launchpad is an integral part of the Dock you can't actually delete it. Launchpad.app is merely a trigger so you have something to press in the Dock, it doesn't hold the real thing.

.Neo said,

Since Launchpad is an integral part of the Dock you can't actually delete it. Launchpad.app is merely a trigger so you have something to press in the Dock, it doesn't hold the real thing.
But deleting the app and removing the shortcut from the dock hides 99% of it to the end user (can still be triggered by keyboard shortcuts etc)

Rudy said,
But deleting the app and removing the shortcut from the dock hides 99% of it to the end user (can still be triggered by keyboard shortcuts etc)
This is closer to what I meant, I did a lousy job at conveying it.

virtorio said,
There is a difference between having a "touch friendly UI", and merging OSX and iOS.

Apple would make iOS Apps compatible with a touch friendly OSX, it would be an obvious error to do otherwise (why are Windows Phone Apps incompatible with Windows 8 Tablets?), and with that you will find, for technical reasons, the two OS'es would have to maintain a level of commonality - that is the merging.

virtorio said,
It'll be interesting to see how these comments play out.
I prefer Apple's strategy.

It seems that Apple's strategy is to attack their competition. When Microsoft compares their products to Apple's, they are hateful, angry, and have nothing really to show. Apple attacks their competition, and it is great! Keep it going! Don't stop!

WhatTheSchmidt said,

It seems that Apple's strategy is to attack their competition. When Microsoft compares their products to Apple's, they are hateful, angry, and have nothing really to show. Apple attacks their competition, and it is great! Keep it going! Don't stop!

Yeah, because when people like Ballmer talk about Apple and what they're doing, everything he says is pure roses and candy.