Are retailers to blame for slow WP7 sales?

When Microsoft launched Windows Phone 7, it was entering a competitive marketplace. Android and iOS already had a strong hold on the market and Windows Phone was now the new kid on the block. While the OS has had generally positive reviews and the 'Mango' update will bring many new desirable features to the platform, sales, at this time, are rumored to be below expectations.

While Microsoft has yet to officially release sales figures for the platform, there may be an external factor that is playing into the sales of the devices. Consumers have been reporting that retail representatives have been shunning the platform when asked by consumers. At first it appeared that it may be an isolated event, but after a little bit of digging, we have found more evidence of retailers steering customers away from the platform.

A Neowin forum user, jasonon wrote about his buying experience. If it were not for his persistence, a Verizon sales associate would have prevented him from purchasing a HTC Trophy.

So when I first got a sales rep to help me, he was confused why I wanted a Windows Phone, he pointed me towards Android phones like the Incredible 2, saying I would like them better. I said no, and he pushed the iPhone after that. I kept insisting on WP7 and he finally brought me to where it was on display.

While it could be possible to say that this is a one-off experience, another user, and forum moderator, Growled, wrote this about his BestBuy experience:

I went into my local Best Buy recently to look at phones, as my contract is due to end in a couple of months. They wouldn't even talk to me about a Windows Phone. All they could talk about is iPhone first and then Android. When I mentioned WP7 they just looked blank and changed the subject.

It does appear that the Best Buy employee may have been directing the user towards their own personal preference, but it does show that trying to buy a Windows Phone device will result in active solicitation towards another platform. But the poor buying experience extends far beyond the experiences mentioned above.

A new website has been created to document these buying experience in more detail. Wptattletale.com is a new site that documents the poor buying experiences of Windows Phone 7. The site states that "Windows Phone 7 has a great user experience. Customers will never know if they can't experience it properly." The basic idea is that retailers are inhibiting the success of the platform because of the buying experiences mentioned in this article.

PCmag has additional information on retailers selling Windows Phone 7. The article states how each of the major carriers in the US are treating Windows Phone as a second class platform. This article states about Sprint that:

A salesperson was impressed by my insistence on trying a WP7 device (Sprint has only one Windows Phone 7 model, the HTC Arrive), but still tried to sell me the Android-powered HTC Evo (like the one he held). When I told him I'd rather wait for another WP7 phone to hit Sprint, he tried to convince me to return on June 24 for the HTC Evo 3D.

The unfair treatment of the Windows Phone platform may be a bigger hurdle than spreading the information to the consumer. Microsoft is investing heavily in the advertisements of the Windows Phone platform to the consumer. But if an eager consumer goes to their preferred retailer, the sales representative may be a bigger challenge than Microsoft anticipated.

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I was in a store interested in getting a HTC HD7, though they had some dummy ones on display I wanted to use one before i signed on the dotted line. They did not have any working models and generally didn't a "$%^" about it.

Sounds about right.

Metro is superb on Windows Phone 7 however, it was very strange to use such a different UI after being on Android since it was released, but after an hour or less things are just so much simpler and quicker to do. I'm also in an office full of iPhone users and here, it's definately a fresh experience that SHOULD be gaining a lot of market share, hopefully soon.

Here in the UK, the problem we face is that no one carrier can offer all of the devices with most limited to one or two while the same carriers have between 6 & 10 Droid offerings plus the iPhone. It reduces consumer choice. Until this changes, folk who are happy to stay with their carrier will often pick from their range and if that carrier does not supply the WP7 device they like then cahances are, they will settle for something else. So not just down to the actual retailer.

I don't see anything amazing about this..

And now that MS has bought skype carriers might be even more "against" WP7-phones.
Consumers might like skype but carriers do not unless they get paid what they are going to lose in normal call revenues..

For example Nokia is already seeing how unwise it is to upset the retail channel/operators..
Yes symbian is a dying platform but Nokia shouldn't have announced it's demise before they had something else to sell.. Operators basically cancelled orders and now Nokia is wondering what sell for the rest of the year..

If I worked in a store that sold phone contracts, I wouldn't recommend a Windows Phone 7 device either in most cases - If I for instance had to recommend an LG Optimus to someone, I would not even mention the Windows Phone version.

Stores try to sell you what's popular. End of story. There's no conspiracy.

Back in the GC/XBox days stores was trying to sell the XBox more than the GC. 3rd party dev was supporting the XBox more than the GC. Nintendo fans said it was because MS paid money. Nintendo haters said the console was kiddy. The fact is it was just the least interesting console from the consumers point of view and the console did not get support after half a year. That's all.

It's the same with WP7. There's no conspiracy. There's no it's better or worse. It's just not popular for now and stores will try to sell you an iphone or android phone before.

MS needs to change that itself. Stores will not help MS. Marketing, marketing, marketing mr Ballmer.

I had similar experience while buying my HD7 from Jarir Bookstore. While I asked for HD7 they sales guy showed me Desire HD first. Upon correcting him he handed me HD7 and Mozart both were not working (no battery) while all other phones on display were all working and people can go through them. Ok no biggy. I asked what comes with it, 2-3 guys there, none of them had any idea. Suddenly they started looking under the counter for the box which eventually the did find I went through it and realize that there is no case or protector included. So I asked do they have any to go with it. They said no they will arrive in 2-week time, and I can see they have case for Desire HD behind the counter. So I pointed out to him asked him to show me that. Once in my hand it have clear label mentioning the phone that can be used including HD7. Wow!!! However, I went a head and ordered the device he went to create the bill then he told me 'Oo Sir there is a free 6-month data subscription with it'. I mean really they have an offer on a device and they dont know about it?
Another thing at that time I bought the phone atleast 150US$ above actual phone price. This is pocketed by retailer only.

for those who are not using the phone, stop commenting. I switched from iphone to wp7 for I don't like the way apple conduct its business. my experience is there are lots of getting used to. the metro UI does looks odd and honestly I don't think it's a good idea (cutting off text aka intensionally leaving out/hiding information on the UI and not leveraging the full screen and the unnecessary animation when switching screen etc, I don't know what kind of UI philosophy it's trying to sell, so far I am not buying.). the title instead of icons, there are pros and cons. I see the point of information update, but most of the time, those titles don't even update at all, just taking up tons of space. talk about simple UI, it couldn't be any more simpler, the does console background, come on, it's not 1981! if you argue that it's the first relase, the functionalities not are quite there yet, then I agree. right now, if you are comparing iphone 4 and wp7, wp7 looks like a half baked OS. not just apps. the ease of use as well. making a phone call shouldn't have to tap 3-4 times and what's up with saving the contacts list in windows live? does I have another option? anyways, will see what mango bring and I don't see there will be much chance in terms of the UI, but it's a functional phone with some basic smartphone feature such as map and browser (and what's up with the sluggish panning - the UI keeps redrawing itself and that's annoying and it's much smoother in iphone). so if you want a phone that's not additive and simple. wp7 is your choice for now. I hope the phone team will rethink the UI. seriously...

koo9 said,
my experience is there are lots of getting used to

You can get used to everything.

One of the big difference between a good UI and a bad UI is you don't need to get used to the good UI. It's intuitive.

Looks like MS rather pays some people to post on neowin than a retail salesman . Some comments here are just so evangelic

Its all true... Even here in AUS.

My mum was having a look at phones, i have used WP7 on my HD2 for some time now and love the idea of its simplicity. While mum was looking around the Vodafone shops at the Trophy the sales reps not only told her it was a "hard to use" and "not popular" operating system but they kept pushing her to the out of her budget over the top HTC Desire HD and showed no interest at all in offering advise/help with the WP7 platform...

Alot of the shops she went to no one was able to show her how the phones worked as none of the staff seemed to know how to do basic functions on the OS (like turning off predictive text)

Its a shame the OS has been getting alot harsh judgment at the level where most users go to seek advise on phones...

iPhone, call me a hater but i dont like how it demands itunes to even turn on (yes i know wp7 has zune but i actually like the Zune interface and use the software) among other things..

Android, while good i dont like the array of high, med and low hardware it spans across and IMO its heading the way of Symbian unless they start to smarten up on who is allowed to use what on the handset. Also as a phone for my mum, all the extras android offers is just excess details she does not need.

WP7, the potential after seeing the Mango update is just a win win currently. Software is all compatible with all the PC's (all the PC's in my house have Zune already installed). The high quality hardware (HTC and the min 1Ghz processor etc), dedicated cam button and mail integration. The ability to sync the contacts and calender from the pc at home over Live.

Overall with my situation the Wp7 is just a great little OS. Integrates with Windows, all the hardware was good quality (for a $29 p/month over 24 month gets u a HTC Trophy i think is great value).

Microsoft sponsored journalists posing as users in a honey trap operation is hardly conclusive. The fact is, retailers/carriers etc aren't going to push a platform and devote resources to it if it's not popular with users. But then again, it's typical to spread the blame when it comes to WIndows products isn't it? Vista was hardware manufacturers fault, the Kin was Verizon's fault, and now the abject failure of WM7 is supposedly retailers fault. This reality distortion field is buckling though

Flawed said,
But then again, it's typical to spread the blame when it comes to WIndows products isn't it? Vista was hardware manufacturers fault, the Kin was Verizon's fault, and now the abject failure of WM7 is supposedly retailers fault. This reality distortion field is buckling though
I agree. Considering the fact that Microsoft didn't have a 3 year late start to the smartphone business, but rather a 5 year head start (Pocket PC 2002), I think that the vast majority of WP7's current failings must be blamed on Microsoft. If the sales guys don't like Windows smartphones, well then maybe Microsoft shouldn't have let Windows Mobile 5/6 suck so bad in the first place.

Flawed said,
Microsoft sponsored journalists posing as users in a honey trap operation is hardly conclusive. The fact is, retailers/carriers etc aren't going to push a platform and devote resources to it if it's not popular with users. But then again, it's typical to spread the blame when it comes to WIndows products isn't it? Vista was hardware manufacturers fault, the Kin was Verizon's fault, and now the abject failure of WM7 is supposedly retailers fault. This reality distortion field is buckling though

Amen

Flawed said,
Microsoft sponsored journalists posing as users in a honey trap operation is hardly conclusive. The fact is, retailers/carriers etc aren't going to push a platform and devote resources to it if it's not popular with users. But then again, it's typical to spread the blame when it comes to WIndows products isn't it? Vista was hardware manufacturers fault, the Kin was Verizon's fault, and now the abject failure of WM7 is supposedly retailers fault. This reality distortion field is buckling though

Vista didn't & still doesn't suck. What sucked was the lack of drivers put out by OEM's. That lack of drivers led to a ton of compatibility issues that didn't exist once they got on the ball & started writing decent drivers.

KIN is something I won't comment on because in all honesty it just shouldn't have launched, as much as I loved my KIN (and still have it as a backup Zune device.)

Windows Phone 7 (WP7 not WM7 you simpleton) on the other hand isn't a failure, and isn't going anywhere.

I would have to agree with the article as my experience was the same at about 5 stores. I am given an IPHONE 4 for AT&T and Verizon. I have the HTC EVO 4G personally and a Samsung Fascinate as well. I only pay for the HTC EVO 4G service and the other phones are on my clients company plan. I have been waiting for Sprint to come out with a 4.0" or 4.3" WP7(WP) device without a slider keyboard. I had played with HTC HD7S and will move towards that phone soon or just wait for the new Mango updated phones and updated specs.

When I went into the stores in my local area they all told me that WP7 was not great and that I would like Android or Iphone better. Blackberry was not in the discussions and they never asked me what I wanted to use it for. They pushed Android even when I insisted that the WP7 is pretty easy and simple. They would tell me I was wrong and should consider Android or IPHONE 4 as it was the better OS and that WP7 would probably not be around long. I told them why not and they just said it wasn't and the customers don't ask for the phone.

In regards to the argument about Android being less expensive due to the OS being free. Well read a little more before making that comment. There are numerous reports that when it is all said and done there is only a couple dollars between the two OS's. Google gives the OS away but charges for the MAPS, etc. Correct me if I am wrong. I have read on numerous occasions that this was true. Also the same reason why CM can't bundle the GAPPS with their ROMS.

The HTC HD7S is not outdated in look or feel when compared to any of the current HTC phone releases. It's in the same class of hardware. Perhaps no front facing camera but its design is still up to date with the current HTC releases.

I would like to see a Super AMOLED plus screen with WP7.

With the Mango update and Windows 8 UI coming into the mix in the next year along with the Nokia hardware push it will be an interesting time for MS. I think they will hit a TRI-FECTA.

Mango is what MS needs to compete and win over the naysayers. Windows 8 UI will help with their tablets/pads and Nokia is incredible with their hardware. Their marketplace is very good and will only help MS deliver better.

mrmomoman said,
In regards to the argument about Android being less expensive due to the OS being free. Well read a little more before making that comment. There are numerous reports that when it is all said and done there is only a couple dollars between the two OS's. Google gives the OS away but charges for the MAPS, etc. Correct me if I am wrong. I have read on numerous occasions that this was true. Also the same reason why CM can't bundle the GAPPS with their ROMS.

False. Android OS is 100% Free. Phone manufacturers pay for using the Android Market. As for Google Maps, Gmail, etc.., those are also free. They are not open source but they are free.

iPhone has Google Maps after all. Trust me, Apple will not pay Google for anything.

Take a look at the Nook Touch and Nook Color. Both are Android devices that don't have the Android Market. The Nook Color uses its own Barnes and Noble Market but has Gmail installed.

UndergroundWire said,

False. Android OS is 100% Free. Phone manufacturers pay for using the Android Market. As for Google Maps, Gmail, etc.., those are also free. They are not open source but they are free.

iPhone has Google Maps after all. Trust me, Apple will not pay Google for anything.

Take a look at the Nook Touch and Nook Color. Both are Android devices that don't have the Android Market. The Nook Color uses its own Barnes and Noble Market but has Gmail installed.


That's like saying that the car frame is free, but you'll have to go and buy the engine and transmission.

day2die said,

That's like saying that the car frame is free, but you'll have to go and buy the engine and transmission.

Anyone can download the source code and build it themselves. I'd say that's pretty free.

Where can I download the WM7 source code? Oh right, I can't, because it's not free. it's another locked down proprietary version of CE. The only company who claims Android isn't free is Microsoft, and it just happens to be the only one trolling Android OEM's with spurious patents.

Microsoft: "Android isn't free because we'll sue you for using it" lol. I'm starting to think that the Nokia-Microsoft deal is actually just a patent pool racket, and that they are going to try and collectively tax/sue Android to raise its effective price so their offerings look more attractive, It's really trashy tactics, but it's nothing new from Microsoft. We all know it can't complete fairly.

I recently got a Android phone after being a windows mobile phone customer for years. I have thought about still getting the Windows Phone 7 just to be ready for the mango update. I thought it was strange that At&t just released the HTC HD7S phone just a little over a week ago online, and now it is sold out online. As the rest of the Windows Phone 7 with AT&T are all of a sudden out of stock. Something just does not seem right.

JSYOUNG571 said,
I recently got a Android phone after being a windows mobile phone customer for years. I have thought about still getting the Windows Phone 7 just to be ready for the mango update. I thought it was strange that At&t just released the HTC HD7S phone just a little over a week ago online, and now it is sold out online. As the rest of the Windows Phone 7 with AT&T are all of a sudden out of stock. Something just does not seem right.

Something tells me a new wave of Windows Phones is coming in.

....Or, maybe most people outside of Neowin and Winrumors don't think monochrome squares and oversized text that hangs over the end of the screen look as nice to them as it does to you.

MS Lose32 said,
....Or, maybe most people outside of Neowin and Winrumors don't think monochrome squares and oversized text that hangs over the end of the screen look as nice to them as it does to you.

^

MS Lose32 said,
....Or, maybe most people outside of Neowin and Winrumors don't think monochrome squares and oversized text that hangs over the end of the screen look as nice to them as it does to you.

93% of those surveyed who have used the devices would disagree with you.

MS Lose32 said,
....Or, maybe most people outside of Neowin and Winrumors don't think monochrome squares and oversized text that hangs over the end of the screen look as nice to them as it does to you.

Your name told the whole story.

MS Lose32 said,
....Or, maybe most people outside of Neowin and Winrumors don't think monochrome squares and oversized text that hangs over the end of the screen look as nice to them as it does to you.

Just looking at your username there, perhaps you should jog on over to macrumors.com or android.net and be among your own kind.

MS Lose32 said,
....Or, maybe most people outside of Neowin and Winrumors don't think monochrome squares and oversized text that hangs over the end of the screen look as nice to them as it does to you.

I've been saying that all along. You have to be a fanboy to like that UI. 100% right.

hynesy said,

Just looking at your username there, perhaps you should jog on over to macrumors.com or android.net and be among your own kind.

Your attack was 100% against my username, 0% against my point. Try harder.

MS Lose32 said,
Your attack was 100% against my username, 0% against my point. Try harder.

I wasn't arguing against your point mate, I was pointing out that you are clearly biased. However since you brought it up, can you provide some evidence to back up what I assume are baseless claims.

It is a real pity that any topic on iOS, WP7 and Android gets hijacked by this rubbish.

hynesy said,

I wasn't arguing against your point mate, I was pointing out that you are clearly biased. However since you brought it up, can you provide some evidence to back up what I assume are baseless claims.

It is a real pity that any topic on iOS, WP7 and Android gets hijacked by this rubbish.

Baseless claims? I got a question for you. Sales. Where are they? You mean the mean 'ol sales guys are hurting poor little WP7? Well maybe if Microsoft hadn't let WM6 stagnate so bad over the last 4 years, MAYBE, just maybe, the sales guys wouldn't have such a negative opinion of Windows-anything to begin with!

day2die said,

Bunch of floating widgets looks way better /s.
To you and most of Neowin, widgets may be ugly and a terrible idea and WP7 may be the most beautiful thing you've ever seen, but unfortunately you and most of Neowin is not enough to save WP7 sales. Sorry.

day2die said,

Bunch of floating widgets looks way better /s.

Aesthetics is ruled by a very simple statement:
"De gustibus non disputandum est" which means that you do not argue about personal tastes.

There are other, in my opinion at least, important factors involved in the decisional process of buying a smartphone like functionalities, OS flexibility etc.

MS Lose32 said,
Baseless claims? I got a question for you. Sales. Where are they? You mean the mean 'ol sales guys are hurting poor little WP7? Well maybe if Microsoft hadn't let WM6 stagnate so bad over the last 4 years, MAYBE, just maybe, the sales guys wouldn't have such a negative opinion of Windows-anything to begin with!

You still have not supplied any evidence. There is no denying WP7 sales have been sluggish but how you link that directly to the UI is somewhat mysterious.

Fritzly said,

Aesthetics is ruled by a very simple statement:
"De gustibus non disputandum est" which means that you do not argue about personal tastes.

I don't think aesthetics is completely subjective, its just hard to argue about, which is the cause of that expression. The annoying thing to me is when WP7 detractors equate beauty to graphical fanciness, so things like gradients, colors, graphical elements are necessary for something to be beautiful. And somehow a minimalist approach implies its some type of retro throwback to 1981 when advanced graphics were not possible. Criticisms of WP7's purported ugliness never seem to go beyond that. If they would, maybe we could have a discussion about it.

At any rate, its a given that not everyone will like something. But sites like Engadget, Gizmodo, etc. seemed to have a pretty positive reaction to it , and the majority of comments on those sites were positive. Those tend to be very Mac-friendly sites. So it behooves me why people don't like it think they're in the majority or why they think only fan boys would like it.

day2die said,

Bunch of floating widgets looks way better /s.

Hmm. A lot of Apple fans want it too (and were disappointed when it wasn't announced last week). And who has the top markets on phone sales? That's right Android and iOS.

I really don't know where to begin.

I would like to start from the beginning but that will make this response several pages. I will try to explain this as best I can.

Here we go.

I have been usings and selling smartphones over the last 12 years, I've seen alot, from the Palm Treo,MPX200, MPX220, Siemens SX56, SX66, Sony Ericsson P800, HP iPaq h6315, HP HW65xx, HW69xx Series, all the way to the current phones of today.
I agree 100% with the PC Magazine article about. First off I own an Apple iPhone 4, HTC Evo 4G, HTC HD2 (TMOUS), and recently sold my Galaxy Tab (7"). I'll start this responce with the release of the Touch Pro 2 (TMOUS). I was still using my T-Mobile MDA. I was excited to finally have a newer Windows Mobiel Device, I believe the G1 had came out somewhere around that time. Anyways I purchase the TP2 on launch day, Download some games play need for speed, I was suprised after about a week how slow the phone really was, I continue to use the phone until I here about the HD2. I want to upgrade my phone, stop by the T-Mobile store in Buford, GA (Bufrod Drive) all they are pushing is Android, T-Mobile is heavily marketing Android. If I remember right, there pushing the myTouch at this time. So now I'm purchasing the HTC HD2, what a differnce in speed.... etc. the phone was 4x faster than the TP2, looked better, large screen. Soon I'm hearing rumors of Windows Phone 6.5 update, I didn't really like the look. The UI grew on me, I updated the phone. Now theres an actual marketplace for the phone and we can download apps etc, we also had the myphone to backup information. Now I'm building my one custom rom for the HTC HD2, Installing Garmin Mobile App, trying to find tweaks and stuff useful for the community like Auto Rotate for Garmin Mobile on (User: cdguider) XDA. Windows Mobile, Windows Phone is not without issues, neither is any Mobile OS (Web OS, iOS, Android, Symbian. Now we have Windows Phone 7, little over 3 months after WP 7 is released DFT Team, Cotulla, Bepe, Da G, others release Magldr and a WP7 Rom. I couldn't wait to flash it. My phone is already HSPL, so I Flash Magldr. Flash WP7. WP7 was a fresh start for Microsoft to get things right. If you haven't used Windows Phone 7, do not prejudge it. I don't need to go through the list of countless features Windows Phone 7 has, and the ones to come, there are plenty of sites and videos for that. The bottom line is this: TestDrive Windows Phone 7, if you are not happy with the phone within the 14 or 30 days ( Whichever your carrier permits for the Return Perio) return the phone and pickup an Android, iPhone, Blackberry, or a basic mobile phone. The retailers do not have your best interest in mind, they will push android 99.9 percent of the time. I'm not saying Android is a bad platform. The fragmentation with so many devices is ludacris (Force Close). Blackberry - The startup time on the 9630, you could order, pay for your fast food, and thing will still be booting up. These are not the rant os some fanboy these are facts. Forgive me for the spelling errors.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm TeflonDonInc, cdguider (XDA) and I approve this message.

TeflonDonInc said,
little over 3 months after WP 7 is released DFT Team, Cotulla, Bepe, Da G, others release Magldr and a WP7 Rom. I couldn't wait to flash it. My phone is already HSPL, so I Flash Magldr. Flash WP7. WP7 was a fresh start for Microsoft to get things right. If you haven't used Windows Phone 7, do not prejudge it.

I agree Having the HD2 is the best way to test both android and WP7 if you know what your doing.

I flashed my HD2 with Wp7 within weeks of it coming out and already i have locked in my next phone being the next batch of Mango patched phones coming out at the end of this year (lets hope my HD2 holds out till then )

I like WP7 and have recommended it to many people and compared it to both Android and the iPhone with reasons why I like it and think it's a better platform.

Every store I've been to, pushes Android over both the iPhone and WP7. They aren't pushing for either of those two. What gets me going and when they all ask "why do you want that?" or "why would you want a Windows phone?" There isn't a store that hasn't asked those questions and then goes right back to pushing Android. I'm in Canada and that's going to Rogers, Bell, Telus, Koodo, Virgin, Best Buy, Futureshop, The Source, etc... Same there everywhere. Then we sit here and wonder if it might have an effect on sales. I've seen it first hand being in those stores not even being the one looking for one and overhearing them bash it or just push with all their might to turn people away. None of them have been able to explain why thought. It's usually, I don't like it or it's too complicated.

I know it has a huge effect on sales. It would be a good idea to add incentives to the retailers and their employees to push their platform.

dogmai79 said,
It's usually, I don't like it or it's too complicated.

I know it has a huge effect on sales. It would be a good idea to add incentives to the retailers and their employees to push their platform.

Agree... Its lazy retails who know how the iphone works and own an android...

Thats 2 things they know and leave no room for poor Wp7

Vodafone is terrible around aus... The amount of negative air around the sales reps for the HTC Trophy was amazing..

.Neo said,
The only one here to blame is Microsoft themselves.

I agree.

It's never MS fault here.

Vista drivers support sucked for half a year. 3rd party manufacturers fault. Not MS.

WP7 doesn't sell. Retailers fault not MS.

Microsoft, while getting a lot better in quality and attitude, is still paying for past mistakes, arogance and bad quality products. People know words "Windows" and "Microsoft" from computers, which basicaly sucked between XP and Windows7, Office which is still pretty crap for advanced use and general public is affraid of viruses and other problems they encountered with OS. They don't know it's a different platform, they don't know it has nothing to do with computers etc. People need time and Microsoft needs to put a lot in marketing and making developers create apps and games. This platform will get its moment sooner or later, maybe when new WP7 powered Nokia phones come out (it will be interesting to see what happens, people trusted Nokia, but they don't trust Microsoft... and no, fanboys, no one cares if you xbox runs fine and how smooth porn plays on your PC).

theh0g said,
Microsoft, while getting a lot better in quality and attitude, is still paying for past mistakes, arogance and bad quality products. People know words "Windows" and "Microsoft" from computers, which basicaly sucked between XP and Windows7, Office which is still pretty crap for advanced use and general public is affraid of viruses and other problems they encountered with OS. They don't know it's a different platform, they don't know it has nothing to do with computers etc. People need time and Microsoft needs to put a lot in marketing and making developers create apps and games. This platform will get its moment sooner or later, maybe when new WP7 powered Nokia phones come out (it will be interesting to see what happens, people trusted Nokia, but they don't trust Microsoft... and no, fanboys, no one cares if you xbox runs fine and how smooth porn plays on your PC).

The Microsoft name is tainted in the mobile division and MP3 market. It's is in my ope=inion that Microsoft should have gone with a completely new name. Without Windows or Microsoft branding.

Gibbyhome said,
if throwing money at this problem is the answer than does google throw money at these stores ?

Nope, Google doesn't take an active role in Android's advertising.

Its all ratio... You have iOS, Android and WP7.... Currently android has ALOT more hardware to flood the shelf with than the others... So its alot harder to find the other 2 phones in amongst the array of droids...

I believe there is a commission aspect in this for the sales people. Pushing Android phones, pays more commission. At least that is what I have heard.

martinDTanderson said,
I believe there is a commission aspect in this for the sales people. Pushing Android phones, pays more commission. At least that is what I have heard.

There should be, theoretically most Android phones should have higher margins due to the lack of OS fees.

I can't see why these are written as "all or nithing". I don't think anyone would say that it's the only explicit reason to why uptake isn't phenomenal, but, rather, it contributes to it.

This has been a problem for a few MS products of the years where sales associates aren't knowledgeable, biased or store demos are broken and unkept. MS has to find a solution to this because I don't doubt that it's widespread. The Boston area is notorious in every Verizon and AT&T stores for pushing Android HARD.

There is a chicken vs egg here. If those chartered to 'sell' something won't, then don't expect sales to be satisfactory. MS has put up ads and whatnot, but once people go into shops and are steered away, what can MS do?

majg said,
I can't see why these are written as "all or nithing". I don't think anyone would say that it's the only explicit reason to why uptake isn't phenomenal, but, rather, it contributes to it....
That's fair. Bad sales reps certainly isn't the primary issue with the adoption rate. MSFT has an issue making an emotional connection between their customers and their products in general. With Windows Phone they are failing to exploit something that most WP users have discovered after they bought one. When I look at my phone, I see my life. My pictures, my games, my friends, etc. all right there on the start screen. What do you see when you look at an iPhone or an Android device - a list of apps.

MSFT really has something there and their marketing is completely failing to exploit it.

SiLeNtDeAtH said,
when you look at an iPhone or an Android device - a list of apps.

And why should i see something else ?

It's a phone.

LaP said,

And why should i see something else ?

It's a phone.

Most people don't see it as "just a phone". If they did, then we wouldn't have fanboys.

SiLeNtDeAtH said,
Most people don't see it as "just a phone". If they did, then we wouldn't have fanboys.

Well, maybe. I think most people DO see it as just a phone. That's the problem that you effectively illustrate in your post above. The solution, I agree, is better marketing. Android and WM7 devices really do seem to have a lot of spec-based marketing. I liked the WM7 commercial last year (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHlN21ebeak) and it was a great direction to go in.

I think Microsoft needs more money put into the advertising portion of their budget

Like they did with windows 7? -

You always see the "IPHONE" in action and the same with the "Android", microsoft you have money to show people how to do side by side in windows 7... why not show off your mobile device? Just 1 feature that separates you from your competitors sticks in peoples brains. I know people who stayed away from the Iphone till they put "copy" & "paste" into the OS (non-jail break), or Black berry and it's BBM.

Maybe in Canada we don't get these ad's on TV?

It is all about money. Retailers have to invest in shop space, manpower training, support for new OS, IT people to test updates, setup shop for fixing software/hardware problems... Retailers may no profit from selling WP7 as they do from iOS and Android, and all these expenses for 1 in 100 (in US) or 1 in 1000 (worldwide) customer asking for WP7.

alexalex said,
It is all about money. Retailers have to invest in shop space, manpower training, support for new OS, IT people to test updates, setup shop for fixing software/hardware problems... Retailers may no profit from selling WP7 as they do from iOS and Android, and all these expenses for 1 in 100 (in US) or 1 in 1000 (worldwide) customer asking for WP7.

How do they not make money? They carry random model XYZ wannabe smartphones, and Microsoft pays well for the kiosk display space.

The profit margins on the WP7 devices are usually higher per device than Android and iOS. (Android devices often are hits to smaller stores.)

Gaara sama said,
This is very Easy who to Blame Microsoft, Just Blame Android!! lol Android is better 100%

and thats been said by someone with a naruto picture... that means, a immature kid who doesn't know how to stop being a fanboy for a second, that means saying comments with no valid points.

Haha Just look at Microsoft all they do is junk phone are junk ,operate system junk , look at vista wat else can be more prove of that HTC HD2? .. junk even Microsoft discontinue it any more prove EmilyTheStrange?

Ho EmilyTheStrange just by look at your pic can say how much do u know , but dont get me grown the best hacker out there are young age, so shut.

Gaara sama said,
Haha Just look at Microsoft all they do is junk phone are junk ,operate system junk , look at vista wat else can be more prove of that HTC HD2? .. junk even Microsoft discontinue it any more prove EmilyTheStrange?

kid, go play fruit ninja.

Gaara sama said,
Haha Just look at Microsoft all they do is junk phone are junk ,operate system junk , look at vista wat else can be more prove of that HTC HD2? .. junk even Microsoft discontinue it any more prove EmilyTheStrange?

Based on my personal experience, and I bet I have been using "Smartphones" and before them "PDA" longer than at least 95% of the people posting here, the HTC HD2 is still one of the best devices I have ever used; while I like very much the GUI of my HD7 the HD2 WN 6.5.3) is much more functional. Granted I cannot care less for FB and XBox, my priorities are Calendar, Tasks and other business oriented features.

R1pper said,

kid, go play fruit ninja.

Keep Fruit Ninja out of this...

Also Gaara i love it how you say MS is junk when you are prob using W7? Unless ur using OSX..

Last time i looked W7 was the best OS on the market... Also MS dont make any Phone hardware so i dont see how the HD2 comes into play... My HD2 is great Runs Phone 7 like a charm

Well as I've stated before, my friend, an At&t sales rep., hates selling WP7 devices. He's pretty much an iPhone enthusiast--he's tried Android as well--but his resistance to WP7 comes from his experience with complaints about WP7 devices. Say what you want, like what you like, he believes he's received more technical complaints from customers who have purchased WP7 devices than customers who have purchased both iOS and Android devices combined.

Jmaxku said,
Well as I've stated before, my friend, an At&t sales rep., hates selling WP7 devices. He's pretty much an iPhone enthusiast--he's tried Android as well--but his resistance to WP7 comes from his experience with complaints about WP7 devices. Say what you want, like what you like, he believes he's received more technical complaints from customers who have purchased WP7 devices than customers who have purchased both iOS and Android devices combined.
Interesting that SOOO many complains would be coming from a platform with such a low adoption rate.

Jmaxku said,
Say what you want, like what you like, he believes he's received more technical complaints from customers...

Believes is the key word. Does he believe it because he has real data to back it up, and presents that data to potential customers so they can make up their mind the way they want, or were there a few problems just like all devices have a few problems, and rather than present that information in a fair and accurate way, he decided that he liked Android/iPhone more and wanted to push his view point?

It is very, very rare that a salesman actually cares about what is sold. Once the buyer walks out the door, they do not care anymore, they met their quota. If they are back with a defective device, they get paid all the same.

Sorry, I don't buy the "A friend of a cousin has a next door neighbor who passed someone on the street who really cares for his customer" bit.

Jmaxku said,
Well as I've stated before, my friend, an At&t sales rep., hates selling WP7 devices. He's pretty much an iPhone enthusiast--he's tried Android as well--but his resistance to WP7 comes from his experience with complaints about WP7 devices. Say what you want, like what you like, he believes he's received more technical complaints from customers who have purchased WP7 devices than customers who have purchased both iOS and Android devices combined.

Weird, when ATT has had several articles over the past year about how horrible and expensive the Android devices have been on their business model, from the handling of the OS and recompiling to the host of customer issues.

I know two people personally that run both independant and corporate cell phone stores. They hate Android, and would rather sell a customer a 'dumb' phones. From the tech support issues of my phones camera crashes the phone to my 'crazy installed app' is screwing with the phone. They are both just doing fast wipes on Android devices instead of trying to deal with any specific issues anymore.

nohone said,

Sorry, I don't buy the "A friend of a cousin has a next door neighbor who passed someone on the street who really cares for his customer" bit.

Way to exaggerate my point. My friend, who I speak with on a weekly basis, has worked at both corporate and non-corporate At&t store locations. Sorry I don't buy the whole Microsoft WP7 fanboy argument over someone who has EXPERIENCE selling devices on all three major platforms. Ooops

thenetavenger said,

Weird, when ATT has had several articles over the past year about how horrible and expensive the Android devices have been on their business model, from the handling of the OS and recompiling to the host of customer issues.

I doubt that article was sourced from At&t considering Android is one of their top selling products. But anyways, I agree. Android hasn't been the easiest OS to maintain. In some ways I fault Google for allowing carriers to add bloatware. iOS made the right call by making the iPhone untouchable from the get go. Custom UIs are bad enough. They hog memory and cause delays in OS upgrades. But Google's business model doesn't intend to dictate what carriers can and can't do--unless it's a Nexus product.

Jmaxku said,

Way to exaggerate my point. My friend, who I speak with on a weekly basis, has worked at both corporate and non-corporate At&t store locations. Sorry I don't buy the whole Microsoft WP7 fanboy argument over someone who has EXPERIENCE selling devices on all three major platforms. Ooops

Ahhh, so someone with EXPERIENCE selling devices will be able to tell a customer which device to use, when they met 3 minutes before and does not know how that customer will use the device, but the people with EXPERIENCE actally using devices does not know what they are talking about?

nohone said,

but the people with EXPERIENCE actally using devices does not know what they are talking about?

I never argued that, but again you love to exaggerate and misconstrue my points.

IMO, you're a pitiful sales rep if you don't have experience operating the devices you're selling, but you know my friend so you obviously have the more accurate judgement here. He must be clueless. I'm not speaking for reps in general, but rather for a personal friend who has been selling and using smart phones for over three years. I'm not arguing that his opinion is universal, but rather trying to explain what this Neowin article is informing us about. I would agree that some reps are fairly clueless to these devices, however, judging by my personal relationship with my friend, I can insure you that's not the case for him. He's used all three, and is able to assist a customer with their specific needs ie. "how someone will use the device"... It's a smartphone! Browsing, apps (free/paid for), making calls, navigation--seems pretty straight forward to me.

People with specific preferences will dictate what they're looking for, and they will buy what they want. Access to Xbox live, Zune, iTunes... the desire to customize and install custom ROMS. Each platform has its perks.

Not all sales reps are mindless drones who don't communicate with others. It's quite the opposite. Most argue everyday about build quality, preferred OS, and yes their EXPERIENCE with selling a particular device/platform and the customer feedback they receive--especially negative feedback that speaks volumes.


Jmaxku said,

Most argue everyday about build quality, preferred OS, and yes their EXPERIENCE with selling a particular device/platform and the customer feedback they receive--especially negative feedback that speaks volumes.

And yet, WP7 has had very good results from customer satisfaction, 1 or 2 points above in some areas, 1 or 2 points below in some areas when compared to the iPhone and Android. But your friend is better at knowing what the customer wants, correct?

nohone said,

And yet, WP7 has had very good results from customer satisfaction, 1 or 2 points above in some areas, 1 or 2 points below in some areas when compared to the iPhone and Android. But your friend is better at knowing what the customer wants, correct?

They haven't topped iOS in customer service. Must be why he recommends it over WP7. And yes, if I had to pick the more ignorant of the two--a biased sales rep or a clueless customer--I would trust in the sales rep. At least they know why they like what they like. That Samsung Omnia 7 update was awesome as well. At least Android has an excuse, custom UI's, hardware that's not standardized.

^Samsung Focus^ for At&t. Must have been were all those technical complaints came from. Time to update your phone 1,2,3, & BRICK!

Jmaxku said,

Way to exaggerate my point. My friend, who I speak with on a weekly basis, has worked at both corporate and non-corporate At&t store locations. Sorry I don't buy the whole Microsoft WP7 fanboy argument over someone who has EXPERIENCE selling devices on all three major platforms. Ooops

So how does the friend account for the 93% overall customer satisfaction rating with Windows Phone 7? Now the one thing I will point fingers about is that Samsung (not MS) screwed up some stuff, which is what made the update a bumpy mess. On other phones the update was a smooth ride.

The problem is that the ONLY good WP7 is on AT&T which is going up against the iPhone.

If they brought the Focus to Sprint, I may get that instead of the Nexus S. But as it is right now, i will be getting Android next month when my contract runs out.

babyHacker said,
The problem is that the ONLY good WP7 is on AT&T which is going up against the iPhone.

If they brought the Focus to Sprint, I may get that instead of the Nexus S. But as it is right now, i will be getting Android next month when my contract runs out.

I don't think that's a fair statement. I haven't been all that impressed with the first round of devices and I have a Focus myself, but the HTC devices are a close second. The issue to me seems to be more around the number of devices Sprint and Verison (1 each) are actually producing. More choices, not just bringing the Focus to other carriers, would address that issue.

SiLeNtDeAtH said,
I don't think that's a fair statement. I haven't been all that impressed with the first round of devices and I have a Focus myself, but the HTC devices are a close second. The issue to me seems to be more around the number of devices Sprint and Verison (1 each) are actually producing. More choices, not just bringing the Focus to other carriers, would address that issue.

I don't know, all those HTC WP7 handsets look very dated and are a year old. One has to wonder how much support HTC will give it, as it is already entering mid-life crisis status for a phone.

SiLeNtDeAtH said,
I don't think that's a fair statement. I haven't been all that impressed with the first round of devices and I have a Focus myself, but the HTC devices are a close second. The issue to me seems to be more around the number of devices Sprint and Verison (1 each) are actually producing. More choices, not just bringing the Focus to other carriers, would address that issue.

I agree that more choices would be good but of the devices available, the Focus looks to be the best. Bringing the Focus to Sprint, a market which ISN'T competing with the iPhone would do them a world of good.

babyHacker said,
The problem is that the ONLY good WP7 is on AT&T which is going up against the iPhone.

If they brought the Focus to Sprint, I may get that instead of the Nexus S. But as it is right now, i will be getting Android next month when my contract runs out.

Are you kidding me? The Focus may have the AMOLED screen (and don't get me wrong because I am an OLED fan) but the HTC Arrive is an amazing phone. I had the opportunity to choose any carrier when I dropped Verizon, and I chose Sprint just to have the Arrive.

Magallanes said,
IMHO :metro UI looks ugly and weird.

so? other people think its cool and nice. only because you think it looks like that, it doesn't mean thats the reason for a slow sales.

Magallanes said,
IMHO :metro UI looks ugly and weird.

Change... The hardest thing for anyone to do... Is change...

Took some getting used to... But.. I love my Metro UI and would not change it for the word

The Samsung Focus is the best & easiest to use/configure phone I've ever owned. So much so that even my wife, who never wanted a smart phone, wanted a Samsung Focus as well. She got hers a week ago and loves it. My dad, who is on a Droid, is jealous of the WP7 platform and wants one as well.

It's apparent that there are too many ignorant children selling phones, yet I do believe it's important to hear a salesperson's opinion. Unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of these folks have never even given it a chance.

Skwerl said,
It's apparent that there are too many ignorant children selling phones, yet I do believe it's important to hear a salesperson's opinion. Unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of these folks have never even given it a chance.
Amen. Fanboys will be fanboys.

Skwerl said,
It's apparent that there are too many ignorant children selling phones, yet I do believe it's important to hear a salesperson's opinion. Unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of these folks have never even given it a chance.

I think a lot of it is geeks that want to sound knowledgeable, and clueless people always feel smarter when telling you all about the (Often perceived) faults in a tech product... Usually a competing product to the one they personally use...

SiLeNtDeAtH said,
Money talks. Time for MSFT to start paying cash incentives to sales reps.
Yup, that could work very well. A lot of retailers will become WP7 fanboys when they will smell that green stuff.

FMH said,
Yup, that could work very well. A lot of retailers will become WP7 fanboys when they will smell that green stuff.
Yeah, I have no doubt the Nokia deal is going to be a huge boost, but if I were MSFT, I wouldn't hold out for that - I'd start kicking adoption rate into high gear now so the narrative 5 years from now isn't "well, if it hadn't been for Nokia, WP7 would have been a complete failure."

SiLeNtDeAtH said,
Money talks. Time for MSFT to start paying cash incentives to sales reps.

yeah, kick backs for those phone sales. they may have a business look wearing shirt and ties, but their brains are too small for other jobs.

SiLeNtDeAtH said,
Money talks. Time for MSFT to start paying cash incentives to sales reps.

MS just don't make enough (per device) to throw cash at sales staff, it would have to be manufactures that offer the incentives. They don't care if you buy Android or WP7 as long as you buy their product.

Edited by McDave, Jun 14 2011, 7:59pm : Premiture submit.

SiLeNtDeAtH said,
Money talks. Time for MSFT to start paying cash incentives to sales reps.

You mean like they did at bestbuy to dissuade them from selling Linux machines? To be honest, Microsoft's already paying IDC and others to produce outlandish sales projections, so it wouldn't surprise me if it already pays staff/retailers to promote WM7. Still though, shops wont risk losing money just to get a few freebies; it just makes little sense to aggravate customers who don't wish to purchase a WM7 device and all its failings.

SiLeNtDeAtH said,
Money talks. Time for MSFT to start paying cash incentives to sales reps.

Correct. Microsoft's approach to this in the UK is very bourgeoisie. They have failed to understand the phone industry particularly the retailers where it is a cut-throat high pressure sales environment. It's all very well having some fancy advertsing in landmark London locations but it's the kids in the shops who will make/break it. Get out of the ivory towers folks !

Flawed said,

You mean like they did at bestbuy to dissuade them from selling Linux machines? To be honest, Microsoft's already paying IDC and others to produce outlandish sales projections, so it wouldn't surprise me if it already pays staff/retailers to promote WM7. Still though, shops wont risk losing money just to get a few freebies; it just makes little sense to aggravate customers who don't wish to purchase a WM7 device and all its failings.

Speaking of failings....

leo221 said,

yeah, kick backs for those phone sales. they may have a business look wearing shirt and ties, but their brains are too small for other jobs.

One of the CyanogenMod ROM developers used to be a sales rep at T-Mobile and I personally have known people who have moved up to other jobs from being sales reps as well. What is your point exactly? There are stupid people at every level in the corporate ladder. Just because someone works as a sales rep doesn't necessarily make them dumb even though many are (just as any other industry).