Bloomberg: Surface sells only 1.5 million units, 400K are Pros

According to Bloomberg, who have sources with knowledge of sales at Microsoft, the Surface has only sold 1.5 million units to date. Out of the 1.5 million, 400,000 of those sales are for the more powerful Surface Pro, while the remaining 1.1 million are naturally for the ARM-powered Surface RT.

While the overall number of sales isn't particularly amazing, especially comparing it to the 22.9 million iPads sold in the quarter ending in December 2012, it does show the remarkably quick adoption of the Surface Pro. The Pro was only made available in mid-February, meaning that all 400K sales have occurred in a one-month period, despite persistent stock shortage issues at the Microsoft Store and other retailers.

Meanwhile, the Surface RT was released in late October 2012, equating to roughly 225,000 sales per month since its launch; not to mention how the Surface RT is more widely available, including locations outside North America. It just goes to show that, unsurprisingly, consumers are more interested in a powerful Windows 8 tablet with full legacy application support, rather than a Windows RT machine with limited capabilities.

Source: Bloomberg

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1.5M unit sold total up to date,
1.1M RT, but didn't MS fanboys said there was 1M unit sold in Q4 2012?
thats mean only 100K (0.1M) was sold after the Q4 2012, that some serious decline, agree?

I'm happy with my RT and I don't care how many they sold it...
Compared to a full Windows desktop it's more like a big Windows Phone... But isn't it what was said about iPad when it has been released ( a "big" iPhone", and with less apps) ?
Sure the desktop on RT is actually only for folder/file or disk drives management and, of course, for Office apps, but there is lot and lot of app coming to both Windows 8 x86 and RT ModernUI side. Every week there is new apps for things I usually do on classic desktop. like reading music and movies (with subtitles) with the excellent Multimedia8 and many other utils...
So what's people never tell or see about RT is it's ARM, so You have a device with very good battery life, you can go out for a day without think about where to charge.
Now... once that said, I keep need for full apps like Photoshop, Illustrator, and other Adobe stuff. So two options :
1- killer touch Apps are released for x86/RT Windows 8, sending Adobe in hell (And there is already some cool apps about that, not as good to replace Adobe's but as good to think it's possible)
2 - the Surface pro will certainly replace my laptop ( I wasn't see my Surface RT as a laptop replacement when i bought it, but why not... I think ARM isn't an bad way).

Edited by Wireless wookie, Mar 15 2013, 1:01pm :

I'm satisfied with it, personally. But you have to care how many they sell. If they only sell to you and I and a relatively small percentage of the market, it's not worth it for developers to develop for it. If developers do not develop for it, it will eventually become a nice looking magnesium alloy paperweight.

MorganX said
If they only sell to you and I and a relatively small percentage of the market, it's not worth it for developers to develop for it. If developers do not develop for it, it will eventually become a nice looking magnesium alloy paperweight.
Now you see, I think it's the other way around. I think instead of developers waiting for it to sell, they should instead make as many apps for it as possible. I've heard people (online and in person) say that they don't use a platform because of the lack of apps.

Do you see where I'm getting at? Developers aren't coding because it's not selling well, but people aren't buying it because of the lack of apps.. Instead of developers waiting for the damn thing to sell out, they should code for it so that people have something to do on it.. Once there's a reasonable amount of good quality apps in the Windows store, people will look at it and say "yeah, I can see myself using this, because it has the apps I need/want to use"..

It's not just apps that count. If they market the device, and have enough to produce, then there should be no problem with it selling.

dtourond said,
Now you see, I think it's the other way around. I think instead of developers waiting for it to sell, they should instead make as many apps for it as possible. I've heard people (online and in person) say that they don't use a platform because of the lack of apps.

Do you see where I'm getting at?

Yes, I see where you are coming from. But unfortunately, there are economic realities to deal with. And few if any can afford to develop and app that has no market to sell to. You have to pay programmers and other staff, now. And pay for marketing, now, in hopes of a return.

MorganX said
And few if any can afford to develop and app that has no market to sell to.
That's the problem.. If developers aren't coding for the platform, people won't use it. These developers can't just expect people to hope onto a platform that doesn't have enough great apps yet.. Once the users see that there are apps that they love, then they'll feel as if the OS is more complete, thus making them more likely to buy the product.

Developers need to be willing to take chances.

dtourond said,
That's the problem.. If developers aren't coding for the platform, people won't use it.

Developers need to be willing to take chances.

1) That's Microsoft's problem.
2) Developers do not. They need to eat. And there's more lucrative platforms.

Let's be clear, Microsoft isn't doing anyone any favors. They're not giving their customers anything for free (not even a good Music app). They're a business and in this for money like everyone else. If they want to get in this market and make big $$$ they're going to have to subsidize quite a bit, start listening to customers, and pave the road for themselves. No one owes Microsoft anything, least of all suffering to help them out. Not developers, and not customers. Let Microsoft's Shareholders and Executives bear the suffering to build a lucrative market for themselves.

MorganX said

1) That's Microsoft's problem.
2) Developers do not. They need to eat. And there's more lucrative platforms.

Let's be clear, Microsoft isn't doing anyone any favors. They're not giving their customers anything for free (not even a good Music app). They're a business and in this for money like everyone else. If they want to get in this market and make big $$$ they're going to have to subsidize quite a bit, start listening to customers, and pave the road for themselves. No one owes Microsoft anything, least of all suffering to help them out. Not developers, and not customers. Let Microsoft's Shareholders and Executives bear the suffering to build a lucrative market for themselves.

That has little to do with what I'm talking about.

Apps play a big role in choosing a platform and if developers decide not to code their apps for a specific platform, then people are less likely to use it. The more good apps, the more people who are likely to use it. People aren't just going to magically flock to a platform that's missing a lot of great quality apps. It just doesn't work that way.

If Apple never released the App Store, then there'd be less people using iOS mainly because it doesn't do some of the things they need/want to do.

My dad got my mother a Surface RT today for my mother. So you can add another 1 to the list. It's a pretty solid product so far

'pretty solid' is hardly a great review. This is the big problem with Windows 8 on tablets.
Your mother wont be happy when she realises her friends dont know what a Surface RT is and her friends wont understand that it not an iPad.

derekaw said,
'pretty solid' is hardly a great review. This is the big problem with Windows 8 on tablets.
Your mother wont be happy when she realises her friends dont know what a Surface RT is and her friends wont understand that it not an iPad.

No but her friends will later look at their iPad and think its a bored dull looking device where the home screen is arguable the worst home screen available between the major 3 competitors (iOS/Android/WinRT). And also see a full working Office while they are stuck with a basic crapfest writer and even worse excel or powerpoint. Don't forget Office is a gamechanger for many, many people. Most just don't know it ... yet.
People don't want to use a desktop if they can use a tablet. They'd love to have a full PC replacement since Office is often one of the few things they use a desktop/laptop for.

Then also the ability to connect any normal computer USB device to it. even charge your phone at the expensive of the Surface tablet battery...

They need to run the clicky dancing advert more. If anything is going to sell a computer it a good dance routine.

Qualcomm inside Surface RT is going to be a game changer (good riddance Nvidia) and Haswell is going to be a game changer in Surface Pro. Cross your fingers for a Baytrail Surface Pro which could really have a major impact on the tablet industry, not just the tablet makers but chip suppliers to.

The rate of progress is painfully slow and trendy Window 8 hatred is annoying and sufferable as hell to endure but Microsoft is well position for the not to distant future.

That old story, sounds like Windows Phone. Mango will do it, no tango, no 7.8, no Windows Phone 8. Still waiting. Its the same story, its the same Microsoft.

I really love Microsoft and the Surface Pro, but if they really care about making this successful, they'll improve on their marketing skills and their quantity..

derekaw said
Its not the product its the marketing. The same was said about Zune and Windows Phone. You see a pattern?
I know that.. I didn't say it was because of the Surface Pro. I think if they want more people to know about this, then they need to work on distribution, marketing and quantity.

derekaw said,
Its not the product its the marketing. The same was said about Zune and Windows Phone. You see a pattern?

iPods were much better than Zune and there are much better alternatives such as iOS and Android to Windows Phone. I don't think it's the marketing failure for Microsoft. They are just bad products that average consumers dont want.

For something that costs $900+ I'd say 400,000 in a month is a solid start. As for the 1.1 million RTs I'd say it could've been double easy if the price was $100 less.

I wonder, I'm going to make a guess here but I think MS has around 2.5-3 million RTs made which they'll sell for most of this year while they prepare the Surface RT 2 With Windows Blue coming in November. Probably a new Pro model as well depending on how many they want to try and sell.

Lets take this into context.

400,000 surface pros sold * $1000 USD = $400,000,000 USD
1.1 million surface rt sold * $500 USD = $500,000,000 USD

That's been in under 5 months. So $900 MILLION dollars in 5 months of REVENUE.

With rumors of a 7 inch Xbox Surface coming out, that's going to be hundreds of millions more.

All that cash with just two products, they definitely are an OEM that other OEM's should worry about.

This is obviously Microsoft's next billion dollar product.

pgn said,
Lets take this into context.

400,000 surface pros sold * $1000 USD = $400,000,000 USD
1.1 million surface rt sold * $500 USD = $500,000,000 USD

That's been in under 5 months. So $900 MILLION dollars in 5 months of REVENUE.

With rumors of a 7 inch Xbox Surface coming out, that's going to be hundreds of millions more.

All that cash with just two products, they definitely are an OEM that other OEM's should worry about.

This is obviously Microsoft's next billion dollar product.

In other words, Microsoft has already made over 300 million dollars profit in a new business unit for them. Surely at this rate, they have a billion dollar annual business. Now who wouldn't want that.

Based on the cost of materials for a Surface RT:
http://www.isuppli.com/Teardow...rdown-Analysis-Reveals.aspx

For some reason, I don't think that the company and its shareholders are too worried with not making 10-20 million sales.

pgn said,
Lets take this into context.

400,000 surface pros sold * $1000 USD = $400,000,000 USD
1.1 million surface rt sold * $500 USD = $500,000,000 USD

That's been in under 5 months. So $900 MILLION dollars in 5 months of REVENUE.

With rumors of a 7 inch Xbox Surface coming out, that's going to be hundreds of millions more.

All that cash with just two products, they definitely are an OEM that other OEM's should worry about.

This is obviously Microsoft's next billion dollar product.

Don't forget thing like the Touch/Type cover and de 64GB/128GB models. I think they are already over the 1 billion.

IgorP said,

Looser than what?

His mo... nevermind.

ahoncbt said,

what do you mean? there is nothing looser than anything. its a looser thats it.

Considering you don't even know how to spell the word "loser"... you're one to talk

Studio384 said,
It's "loser". Beside, the Surface was never ment to sell fast.

already gave an explanation to rfirth about that. hope he read that. due to the nature of that content it was removed by the mods. dont make me say the same to you.

Surface isn't suppose to be a sales leader, it's a guide to show OEM's how to be creative. If the OEM isn't that creative then they will be six feet under, and rightly so.

Someone said Aero and the start button and never coming back, I guess Balmer have to rush and put them back, otherwise the investors will make sure Balmer is not coming back as well :-):-):-):-):-)

1 year of frustration about Windows 8 and I feel good today :-)

john.smith_2084
Someone said Aero and the start button and never coming back, I guess Balmer have to rush and put them back, otherwise the investors will make sure Balmer is not coming back as well :-):-):-):-):-)
Yeah.. They're not coming back.

john.smith_2084
1 year of frustration about Windows 8 and I feel good today :-)
Okay..?

john.smith_2084 said,

1 year of frustration about Windows 8 and I feel good today :-)

If it gave you so much frustration then you have bigger issues to worry about mate.

Windows RT could have been great tablet, if it was sold as a tablet that has office inside, and if it has this year's processor not last year's processor, and if it was as expensive as Android not much expensive than Android, and if .....

Ive only seen reviews of the device, but I saw it at bestbuy the other day and it looks nicer then I thought. In the reviews they say the size is cumbersome, but in reality I felt it was way too small already.

Poor promotion, poor distribution, arguably poor price point and to top it off an unfinished OS with no real killer feature. Not surprised at these numbers at all. Worst thing is the morons at Microsoft are still behaving as if everything is all good and dandy while everything they try just fails miserably and they still leave that bald goon in charge and while that is the case nothing will change, apart from Microsoft's ultimate demise.

efjay said,
Poor promotion, poor distribution, arguably poor price point and to top it off an unfinished OS with no real killer feature. Not surprised at these numbers at all. Worst thing is the morons at Microsoft are still behaving as if everything is all good and dandy while everything they try just fails miserably and they still leave that bald goon in charge and while that is the case nothing will change, apart from Microsoft's ultimate demise.

No killer features - I'd call Office 2013 along with a top notch keyboard option as two killer features. This isn't a tablet but a hybrid laptop/tablet that can replace both.

Mr Nom Nom's said,

No killer features - I'd call Office 2013 along with a top notch keyboard option as two killer features. This isn't a tablet but a hybrid laptop/tablet that can replace both.


Until Apple came out with the iPad Tablet PCs were perfectly fit to replace a laptop. A,Tablet PC replaced my laptop in 2002 and I have never bought another laptop since.

efjay said
Poor promotion
You're right.

efjay said
poor distribution
You're right.

efjay said
arguably poor price point and to top it off
For what it can do, the price isn't that bad.

efjay said
an unfinished OS with no real killer feature.
I don't think you've honestly tried Windows 8, because there are several features in here that people would love. Here's just a few features and improvements:

- Picture Passwords
- Snap Multitasking (The ability to load two apps on the same screen)
- System Refresh/reset
- The Charms bar (great for sharing content to any other app)
- Better support for multiple monitors
- Account Sync
- Improved keyboard shortcuts
- Built-in security (Windows Defender)
- File history
- Live tiles
etc.

Only? I'd say that is pretty good for a first gen device that has like 8000 competitors to it running the same OS or capable of it...

neufuse said,
Only? I'd say that is pretty good for a first gen device that has like 8000 competitors to it running the same OS or capable of it...

People forget that this is just the US. Surface PRO has NOT been released anywhere else in the world. No lets compare Android and Apple tablet sales only in the US to the Surface PRO.

heatlesssun said,
Bottom line, the Surface RT isn't doing very well, the Surface Pro is doing very well.

the surface rt and similar tablets will become very important as the windows 8 ecosystem grows. If the app market becomes filled with the best of software, the surface rt will look like a much better product in a year for example than it looks today.

I agree. I was simply commenting on the current state. 400K units in a month for a $1K is pretty strong. I doubt that number will be sustained but even if Microsoft can sell 150K Pros on average per month I'd call that successful.

400k only sold online,best buy and staples in one freakin month,and immediately sold out when available. This is a $1000 device. A great success. Microsoft just made $400 million in revenue from a new product in its first month in the US and Canada.

vcfan said,
400k only sold online,best buy and staples in one freakin month,and immediately sold out when available. This is a $1000 device. A great success. Microsoft just made $400 million in revenue from a new product in its first month in the US and Canada.

Not only that but the fact that Surface with Windows RT was only selling in a handful of countries up until recently - it has only just reached the shores of the country I live in right now.

Exactly what you said, vcfan.

Based on its price point, and the lack of carrier subsidies, every Surface RT/Pro sold is financially equivalent to 2-3 iPads [or other tablet brand] sold.

By this basic comparison, they've moved 3.5-4M comparable tablet units... not a bad launch for that same 1-month availability period...

I would question the source, for all of the media hype and ridiculous claims of people standing in line there certainly wasn't much of a demand in this area and there wasn't much initial stock on the shelves either and the ones we did have in stock didn't exactly "fly off the shelves" as some people would like you to think.

The Surface needed a 3G version, the number of people who had that as a Number 1 reason for opting for an iPad over the Surface.... IMHO the one major thing wrong with the Surface... Lack of 3G is a massive oversight IMHO

brent3000 said,
The Surface needed a 3G version, the number of people who had that as a Number 1 reason for opting for an iPad over the Surface.... IMHO the one major thing wrong with the Surface... Lack of 3G is a massive oversight IMHO

Either that or support 3G Sticks from carriers so then people can purchase the 3G modem sticks and plug them into the device. Something like that would benefit those who want 3G but at the same time keeping the price of the device low as not to turn potential customers away (having two models would be too costly for Microsoft given the small volume at the moment).

Surface Pro supports any 3G/4G stick. Does the Surface RT not? I thought they standardized drivers for cellular modems in Windows8/RT,

mrp04 said,
Surface Pro supports any 3G/4G stick. Does the Surface RT not? I thought they standardized drivers for cellular modems in Windows8/RT,

It should work just fine.

mrp04 said,
Surface Pro supports any 3G/4G stick. Does the Surface RT not? I thought they standardized drivers for cellular modems in Windows8/RT,

Not a very elegant option compared to a thin iPad that has it build-in.

Only 1.5 million? Stop comparing this to what is now the traditional tablet. This is in its own class and should not be compared to the sales numbers on other devices. We don't look at the sales of the Samsung RC512(the laptop I am currently on) do we? This device is the first of many true PC replacements, not just an infotainment device like the iPad and its competitors. If Samsung sold 1.5 million units of the RC512, we would hear about how great this one laptop model is.

uhh? Wut? They are competing against Android and Tablet.. While I agree that the Surface is in a "higher class" for productivity, they are still fighting for the same Market share.

If those numbers are accurate than no wonder they sold out so often. 1.5 million units really isn't a lot for the way MS positioned this thing. Since they kept selling out and MS didn't have excessive surplus we have no idea yet how much, in full, the market demanded these products, but 1.5 million isn't enough for them to be taken seriously as an OEM.

LogicalApex said,
If those numbers are accurate than no wonder they sold out so often. 1.5 million units really isn't a lot for the way MS positioned this thing. Since they kept selling out and MS didn't have excessive surplus we have no idea yet how much, in full, the market demanded these products, but 1.5 million isn't enough for them to be taken seriously as an OEM.

Certainly enough for Acer to bitch and moan.

Dot Matrix said,

Certainly enough for Acer to bitch and moan.

But not enough for me to take them seriously yet in this space. Hell, when Amazon launched the Kindle Fire in 2011 they were selling 1M a week. Obviously, the Surface is priced higher, but MS needed launch numbers like that to propel them ahead. Maybe they should have similarly priced them aggressively...

Either way, 1.5M units makes them a novelty item from an app development perspective. That isn't a market sufficient enough to take seriously at this point. Apple sold over 20M iPads, according to the Article. Microsoft needs to have the users to court of the developers and I'm not sure the desktop market is a strong enough pull (after all the app being made for the tablet need tablet customers who'll be interested in using them).

I know you'll disagree. You're on the MS payroll (as noted earlier ), but these numbers are pretty disappointing.

1.1 million. I wouldn't even count the Pros with RT. Being an expensive laptop alternative I would compare these to ultrabooks.

I do think we can say though, given the marketing, hype and anticipation, Surface RT is a failure. The upcoming core app updates, particularly Mail and Music, better be really, really good. And come sooner rather than later.

LogicalApex said,

But not enough for me to take them seriously yet in this space. Hell, when Amazon launched the Kindle Fire in 2011 they were selling 1M a week. Obviously, the Surface is priced higher, but MS needed launch numbers like that to propel them ahead. Maybe they should have similarly priced them aggressively...

Either way, 1.5M units makes them a novelty item from an app development perspective. That isn't a market sufficient enough to take seriously at this point. Apple sold over 20M iPads, according to the Article. Microsoft needs to have the users to court of the developers and I'm not sure the desktop market is a strong enough pull (after all the app being made for the tablet need tablet customers who'll be interested in using them).

I know you'll disagree. You're on the MS payroll (as noted earlier ), but these numbers are pretty disappointing.


The surface doesn't sit in its own vaccum. It runs on either Windows RT or Windows 8 with numerous other devices from other OEM's also selling those operating systems. So your novelty of 30 million PC's sold EVERY MONTH with Windows 8 on them is really a ridiculous comment. In under one year Windows 8 will be on near 400 million computers - and with the OEM's pushing more touchscreen devices anyone putting apps on Windows 8 stands to gain a lot of money. Whose payroll are you on?

pgn said,


The surface doesn't sit in its own vaccum. It runs on either Windows RT or Windows 8 with numerous other devices from other OEM's also selling those operating systems. So your novelty of 30 million PC's sold EVERY MONTH with Windows 8 on them is really a ridiculous comment. Whose payroll are you on?

That is the line that MS is hoping will rope in developers... "Hey we have 31.5M devices shipped with Windows Metro UI support"... It sounds good, but I don't the wool will be pulled over the eyes of many developers. You don't hear of all the major mobile app developers immediately going Windows 8 RT/Pro (Metro UI) primarily. After all, shouldn't they be at least targeting this platform since it is shipping so many units?

The reality is, developers aren't stupid. The desktop users are a nice marketing line, but app developers know that if you develop a tablet mobile app for people to use while they are, well..., mobile then you need them mobile. Your app may run on his desktop, even look good on it, but he won't use it in the same manner as the use case isn't the same. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.

I mean a tablet version of Yelp, for instance, would be enhanced heavily by being able to give you access to information about the restaurants you're passing by as you walk around looking for a place to eat dinner. If you were on your PC at home you don't feel the same sense of urgency and would expect the much more dense website as a result.

Microsoft needs mobile device sales if they want mobile device developers to take them seriously...

Surface is not supposed to be the be-all-end-all. If the OEMs can't surpass it they don't deserve to stay alive.

But physically the Surface design is sweet and prime. So if Microsoft can't make what's inside a hit with that, what makes you think OEMs can? You can encase a pig in magnesium alloy, but it's still a pig. (now, Windows RT isn't nearly that bad, I'm just countering your point).

You just aren't going to sell the Music & Mail app, and the lack of nice ecosystem. The store is kinda slow and while less cluttered than the iTunes store, it's just not cool. And that may be Surface RT's biggest problems, it does a few things really well, but even if you like some of what it does, it's just not fun to use. It's nice to look at, but not fun to use. Microsoft should re-evaluate their usability research analysis, there's something not quite right with it IMO.

GreyWolf said,
Surface is not supposed to be the be-all-end-all. If the OEMs can't surpass it they don't deserve to stay alive.

LogicalApex said,

That is the line that MS is hoping will rope in developers... "Hey we have 31.5M devices shipped with Windows Metro UI support"... It sounds good, but I don't the wool will be pulled over the eyes of many developers. You don't hear of all the major mobile app developers immediately going Windows 8 RT/Pro (Metro UI) primarily. After all, shouldn't they be at least targeting this platform since it is shipping so many units?

The reality is, developers aren't stupid. The desktop users are a nice marketing line, but app developers know that if you develop a tablet mobile app for people to use while they are, well..., mobile then you need them mobile. Your app may run on his desktop, even look good on it, but he won't use it in the same manner as the use case isn't the same. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.

I mean a tablet version of Yelp, for instance, would be enhanced heavily by being able to give you access to information about the restaurants you're passing by as you walk around looking for a place to eat dinner. If you were on your PC at home you don't feel the same sense of urgency and would expect the much more dense website as a result.

Microsoft needs mobile device sales if they want mobile device developers to take them seriously...

That may be your use case, but who walks around with an ipad? I have a smartphone and I'd imagine most people are not walking down the street with a tablet in their hands.

There are around 40,000 TABLET apps for Windows 8, apple has 300,000 tablet specific apps - and the ipad has been around for about 3 years now, Windows 8 not even 5 months. So the idea that they aren't catching up isn't really close to the situation. Don't give me the bs that all of those 300k apps are must have apps either, the majority are trash apps, the same can be said of the 40k windows apps. There are less than 100 'must have' apps that any mobile platform really 'needs'. One of the recent 'major' developers - twitter certainly thought making a Windows 8 app was a priority.

You probably are not a developer, I am. I've written apps for the iphone and ipad, we made quite a bit off this platform but are no longer publishing on that platform (our app was an apple staff pick and was in the top 10 paid puzzle games section) - simply because its no better than a flee market in the app store. There are so many developers there releasing trash that any app you put out is drowned out instantly and there is no way to shine, marketing makes very little sense when everyone wants to charge 99 cents for an app. The idea of making money off the iphone app store is long gone for small time developers, look at the stats - the majority of money is going to the big devs and most devs do not recoup development costs - at best the majority of developers putting out a quality game/app make $1000 now, well below what it costs to make an app. We have moved ALL app development to Windows 8 now as its simply not as crowded and the economy isn't 99 cents for apps/games that take months to make. A smaller developer has the ability to make more money here even with smaller marketshare. There is an allure that all developers think they can make it big on the apple app store, but sadly after releasing their app they see it gets drowned out and their app is just simply lost, marketing helps somewhat but when you have to sell at 99 cents the idea of a marketing budget is non-existent.


The majority of apps on mobile devices are games - that's what sells. Check the stats on any of the mobile app stores 80% of app sales come from games. So developers looking to make money for any platform are looking to make games - there are quite a few games available for Windows 8 already out there. Rovio certainly thought Windows 8 was a priority and released all of their angry bird games on the platform, galactic reign is a really nice game that just came out, and skulls of the shogun is pretty much a Windows 8, Windows Phone and Xbox exclusive.

There are quite a few apps that are not on the platform yet, that's also because Windows 8 does not have a poorly written mobile browser - it comes with IE10 - a full desktop class browser in both the desktop mode and also in the modern mode that supports websites properly. So there are quite less reasons to need 'an app for that' when using Windows 8 and many websites that are out there.

Touchscreen devices will pick up greatly now that the OEM's are promoting them. You can get atom powered x86 machines (comparable to arm in cpu power) for under $400-$500 with a touchscreen, so as the price goes down and Microsoft is now offering OEM'S licenses to Windows at $30 - (an $80 discount recently enacted) that will encourage oem's to sell more touchscreen devices.

Edited by , Mar 15 2013, 12:00am :

I'm a developer and have been for some time. I previously was a strongly betting on MS to get back into the race, but seeing their latest mistakes and direction and I can't see that actually happening anymore.

Twitter? Seriously. I don't see apps like that as anything worth flipping a switch about. Microsoft hired a third party company to write the "official" Twitter app for Windows Phone and I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true for Windows 8/RT/Metro. For the major applications MS tries to win them over by literally paying all the costs to develop the application. The developer then do it because it is free, if MS persuades them enough.

I never said the iOS App store was an awesome place for a developer. A lot like WalMart is probably not the greatest place for a manufacturer. WalMart beats you up on what you charge and makes life a mess for you. Manufacturers put up with WalMart not because they like getting their face beat in, but because they have the customers. The same is true for iOS and its App Store. Developers are going to flock to it, for now, because the number of potential customers are enough to keep them coming. There is a chance you might make your development costs back when you're in a market of millions of users.

Touch Screen devices will become the norm, sure, but that is all moving far too slow for it to help MS. iOS has become some ubiquitous that even AT&T reps all use it as an over sized PDA or something.

LogicalApex said,
I'm a developer and have been for some time. I previously was a strongly betting on MS to get back into the race, but seeing their latest mistakes and direction and I can't see that actually happening anymore.

Twitter? Seriously. I don't see apps like that as anything worth flipping a switch about. Microsoft hired a third party company to write the "official" Twitter app for Windows Phone and I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true for Windows 8/RT/Metro. For the major applications MS tries to win them over by literally paying all the costs to develop the application. The developer then do it because it is free, if MS persuades them enough.

I never said the iOS App store was an awesome place for a developer. A lot like WalMart is probably not the greatest place for a manufacturer. WalMart beats you up on what you charge and makes life a mess for you. Manufacturers put up with WalMart not because they like getting their face beat in, but because they have the customers. The same is true for iOS and its App Store. Developers are going to flock to it, for now, because the number of potential customers are enough to keep them coming. There is a chance you might make your development costs back when you're in a market of millions of users.

Touch Screen devices will become the norm, sure, but that is all moving far too slow for it to help MS. iOS has become some ubiquitous that even AT&T reps all use it as an over sized PDA or something.

The twitter app was released directly by twitter themselves, they specifically announced it months ago and it was released in the last week by twitter themselves.

You state MS pays devs off as if this is a bad thing; their willing to invest in their OS by supporting companies to come to the platform in its infancy. Most of these large apps are free anyway to end users so there would be no 'income' generated by end users using the apps through purchase. Being paid to make these apps is a win win situation for both Microsoft and the company making the app. You want to complain 'no big developer' will make apps for Windows 8, then say that MS has to pay them off to get the apps there. In the end what difference does it make to an end user if MS paid for the app or not? The userbase is still small, once it grows there will be less 'convincing through payment' needed on Microsofts part for developers. This is something very similar they did for Windows when it first came out in the 80's. They have the funds and are willing to invest in getting the quality apps to the platform, for users they get free apps.

LogicalApex said,
I'm a developer and have been for some time. I previously was a strongly betting on MS to get back into the race, but seeing their latest mistakes and direction and I can't see that actually happening anymore.

Twitter? Seriously. I don't see apps like that as anything worth flipping a switch about. Microsoft hired a third party company to write the "official" Twitter app for Windows Phone and I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true for Windows 8/RT/Metro. For the major applications MS tries to win them over by literally paying all the costs to develop the application. The developer then do it because it is free, if MS persuades them enough.

I never said the iOS App store was an awesome place for a developer. A lot like WalMart is probably not the greatest place for a manufacturer. WalMart beats you up on what you charge and makes life a mess for you. Manufacturers put up with WalMart not because they like getting their face beat in, but because they have the customers. The same is true for iOS and its App Store. Developers are going to flock to it, for now, because the number of potential customers are enough to keep them coming. There is a chance you might make your development costs back when you're in a market of millions of users.

Touch Screen devices will become the norm, sure, but that is all moving far too slow for it to help MS. iOS has become some ubiquitous that even AT&T reps all use it as an over sized PDA or something.

Twitter (Windows Phone) app
http://www.windowsphone.com/en...14dc-df11-a844-00237de2db9e

Twitter (Windows 8) app
http://apps.microsoft.com/wind...d44-9a5c-63d9c3a79f35/m/ROW

Do check the name of the Publisher and be enlightened.

pgn said,

The twitter app was released directly by twitter themselves, they specifically announced it months ago and it was released in the last week by twitter themselves.

You state MS pays devs off as if this is a bad thing; their willing to invest in their OS by supporting companies to come to the platform in its infancy. Most of these large apps are free anyway to end users so there would be no 'income' generated by end users using the apps through purchase. Being paid to make these apps is a win win situation for both Microsoft and the company making the app. You want to complain 'no big developer' will make apps for Windows 8, then say that MS has to pay them off to get the apps there. In the end what difference does it make to an end user if MS paid for the app or not? The userbase is still small, once it grows there will be less 'convincing through payment' needed on Microsofts part for developers. This is something very similar they did for Windows when it first came out in the 80's. They have the funds and are willing to invest in getting the quality apps to the platform, for users they get free apps.

It isn't a bad thing for the users, but if MS has to lure developers in by bribing them then they will always be playing catchup. They need to make developers want to develop for their platform. That's how you get access to the upcoming great apps and stop getting them when they are fading out on other platforms. My point is simply that it is a major problem for MS that they can't generate interest on their platform even while throwing desktop users into the pit.

I mentioned the reasons earlier.


Kunal Nanda said,

Twitter (Windows Phone) app
http://www.windowsphone.com/en...14dc-df11-a844-00237de2db9e

Twitter (Windows 8) app
http://apps.microsoft.com/wind...d44-9a5c-63d9c3a79f35/m/ROW

Do check the name of the Publisher and be enlightened.

The "publisher" line on the marketplace means nothing. Obviously, Microsoft would work with Twitter to make sure they endorse their app. They wouldn't expect users to trust an official Twitter app from "Uncle Sams Software Shop, Inc."... But if you have proof that twitter developed these in house you should post it. According to Neowin both apps, Windows Phone and Windows Store, are developed by third parties, like I said earlier.

http://www.neowin.net/news/twi...-same-for-windows-store-app

It is also very well known that MS develops the Facebook app for Windows Phone, not Facebook.

http://www.neowin.net/news/nok...hone-app-is-being-worked-on

@mkruz and @miradu built the twitter app for windows 8 and windows phone 8. they work for twitter. Is that enough proof that the app was built in house?

pgn said,

The twitter app was released directly by twitter themselves, they specifically announced it months ago and it was released in the last week by twitter themselves.

You state MS pays devs off as if this is a bad thing; their willing to invest in their OS by supporting companies to come to the platform in its infancy. Most of these large apps are free anyway to end users so there would be no 'income' generated by end users using the apps through purchase. Being paid to make these apps is a win win situation for both Microsoft and the company making the app. You want to complain 'no big developer' will make apps for Windows 8, then say that MS has to pay them off to get the apps there. In the end what difference does it make to an end user if MS paid for the app or not? The userbase is still small, once it grows there will be less 'convincing through payment' needed on Microsofts part for developers. This is something very similar they did for Windows when it first came out in the 80's. They have the funds and are willing to invest in getting the quality apps to the platform, for users they get free apps.


Ignore him if he boohoo's about MS investing money so developers start developing for their platform....
Apple has done exactly the same, even worse actually and Google also dragged developers to Android by any means necessary. They all do it, but the only one that receives a bad reputation by doing so, is as always... Microsoft.

Shadowzz said,

Ignore him if he boohoo's about MS investing money so developers start developing for their platform....
Apple has done exactly the same, even worse actually and Google also dragged developers to Android by any means necessary. They all do it, but the only one that receives a bad reputation by doing so, is as always... Microsoft.

I'm not boohooing Microsoft for investing in development efforts for their platform. I'm boohooing Microsoft for failing to build real momentum behind their platform. Without real momentum MS can pay for the best apps on rival platforms, but they'll always be a step behind (they can't ride the wave up while the app is becoming successful).

Without real momentum Microsoft has a problem on their hands. The longer time ticks on the harder it will be for Microsoft to build that momentum.

Fanboys can drink as much koolaid as they want, but the reality is pretty clear here. I really felt Microsoft had a shot when they launched Windows Phone 7 back in 2010. They had the ability to build a very rich ecosystem that had the possibility of upsetting the power play in the industry. They failed to capitalize on all of this. Here we are three years later and Microsoft still hasn't built a real ecosystem.

Everyday they let go by Apple builds a stronger ecosystem and so does Google. They no longer have to just deliver a cool product they also have to deliver tangible value to consumers that extend far beyond the hardware itself. That is what these Surface sales numbers prove; that is what the lackluster interest in developing Windows Phone/Windows Store apps prove.

Either way, fanboys will preach Microsoft like the second coming, like the respective ones do for every platform, but the reality is that if Microsoft doesn't get their act together fast they'll never recover. At some point the momentum gets so strong that you have no hope of catching up. This is why 10 years ago we didn't see the possibility of anyone upsetting Microsoft. Now we see they have fallen far from grace.

But what do I know? I'm just a dude on the Internet talking on a site so full of MS fanboys I might as well not even speak.

Don't really want to get in the middle of developers going at it but ;> I think both sides have merit. But specifically as it relates to the Windows 8 Platform, I don't think MS has spent "enough" money wooing developers. They used to do a lot more. I think they should be subsidizing all popular apps and apps to fill in genre gaps on the WP8 platform and on W8 in general. Many of the apps that are popular on phones and tablets can't be and probably never will be on it due to limitation of the platform.

Why won't MS settle their squabbles and just pay Facebook to make a native app, just like the other two major platforms. Studies have just shown, this is one of the top 3 functions people are using their smartphones and tablets for.

May seem silly, but where's the standard Angry Birds for Surface RT? It's on every other platform. The thematic versions are there, for a prices. MS should have gotten this there. It's a mobile phenomenon.

Small but significant marketing things like that MS used to be very good at in the Bill Gates days. And it grew their base during times of generally low popularity. Anyone remember how Pinball was such a big thing when Windows wasn't all that popular?

Microsoft's Corporate culture has become a shareholder driven bureaucracy that is just disconnected from the "people" it wants to buy it's product.

It's needs to get back to its old ways, and that means getting developers of popular things (as in pop culture) to develop for the platform, even if they have to subsidize it 100%.

JMO. It may however, be too late. I agree with you that they have failed to build momentum despite all the marketing $$$, and their window of opportunity is closing fast. We are on the verge of opening our corporate environment to the iTunes App Store. I'm fighting with everything I have, but as MS' fails to become meaningful in the tablet space quickly, I really have nothing to stand on. When the floodgates open to the Apple App Store, MS can forget about it, they're done in this County & City. I'm just delaying the inevitable from what I see happening or not happening, in the Tablet space for all intents and purposes, they dropped the ball. They're done. The phones aren't really that far behind.

LogicalApex said,

I'm not boohooing Microsoft for investing in development efforts for their platform. .

MorganX said,

Microsoft's Corporate culture has become a shareholder driven bureaucracy that is just disconnected from the "people" it wants to buy it's product.

It's needs to get back to its old ways, and that means getting developers of popular things (as in pop culture) to develop for the platform, even if they have to subsidize it 100%.

JMO. It may however, be too late. I agree with you that they have failed to build momentum despite all the marketing $$$, and their window of opportunity is closing fast. We are on the verge of opening our corporate environment to the iTunes App Store. I'm fighting with everything I have, but as MS' fails to become meaningful in the tablet space quickly, I really have nothing to stand on. When the floodgates open to the Apple App Store, MS can forget about it, they're done in this County & City. I'm just delaying the inevitable from what I see happening or not happening, in the Tablet space for all intents and purposes, they dropped the ball. They're done. The phones aren't really that far behind.

Agreed. They are running in a direction that isn't anywhere near where their customers are.

The way MS played this latest round is a strong validation of your point. They played Windows 8, Surface, and Windows Phone 8 around this "one version of Windows everywhere" banner. So today on a technical level it is cool that Windows 8 is technically on everything now, but they failed to unify this stuff in a way that customers care about.

Really, MS's focus needed to be in building a unified and tightly integrated ecosystem that consumers and developers could just fall in love with. From all the rumors I've read they are going down that road with Windows Phone 8.5/9 and Windows 8 Blue or 9. The problem is looking at this tie in not coming until 2014 or later is what's killing them. At this point they have only offered a new UI without much of a value proposition other than largely aesthetics.

They have some cool technical innovations, but consumers don't buy their gadgets because "Windows is the same everywhere" or some nonsense. For instance, it is amazing to me that Apple has sync anywhere support on their platform (allowing users to snap pictures on their iPhone and it shows up on their Mac without even having to so much as connect it to the computer) and Microsoft can't even allow XBOX Music on Windows 8 to sync with XBOX Music on WP8.

This is the failure I see deeply in MS and why I'm no longer confident they will win. They had a perfect chance with Windows Phone 7. RIM/Blackberry were beaten down to the point they had vultures picking at their heels. Microsoft had the chance to at least gobble up any hope of RIM doing anything to come back and taking over their leftover market corpse (the business segment). They could have then held one market while trying to build momentum and get themselves back in the race. Where are we now? RIM is alive and the business community is racing to them because MS shunned business users. BB10 has full Android app support so developers don't even have to work hard to support them anymore. If RIM beats MS there is no hope MS will ever have a serious foothold in the phone space.

Basically, MS needed to be focusing hard on the end user's experience. They needed to be marketing a complete package better than what has existed. Instead they have given users broken fragments that leave them utterly confused and seeing no value proposition. They keep singing this song of "just one more version and we'll get it right" meanwhile everyone is racing without thinking of them.

I'll admit I was a strong MS fanboy. I seriously only just got an Android phone in Q4 2012. Having owned a smartphone since 2005 and all were Microsoft based (WM 5-WP7.8) I was betting hard on them coming back and winning. Now I just can't see that anymore. You can't keep saying "next year" every year and hoping that its right at some point. It is starting to sound a lot like those "this is the year of Linux" diatribes that start every year.

@LogicalApex 100% on point. The technical merits can be debated forever between developers and admins ad nauseum. But the content of that post, which I agree with 100% is what "real" people care about.

I have made my career off the Microsoft Architecture, and MS has never been this unworthy of confidence. Like you, I prefer Windows/Microsoft products. But having just recently gone Android after a 920 & 8X, I don't see myself ever going back to Windows Phone. At this pace, it will take them a decade to catch up to where Android is today. I realized after going back and having everything I wanted, to be on a Windows Phone is to settle for less. And I can't come up with a good reason why I would ever do that again. The fact that MS is silent on the gaping holes and issues with the platform and do not appear to be listening to customers at all has a lot to do with it.

To go back to Windows Phone I'd have to give up all my Banking apps, all my fitness apps and peripherals, and CD quality sound over Bluetooth 4.0. Why would I, or anyone other than an MS Shareholder do that? Answer, the wouldn't, they're not, and they won't.

I kind of want to get an iPad Mini. I'm just going to to wait and see if they are going to release an update with a retina display pretty soon.

Yeah, I would off on the mini.. I was pretty disappointed in the hardware specs as well. Hopefully they will revamp it and produce something much better.

ahoncbt said,
get a Nexus 7 or 10. i was doubtful at first when i got my nexus 10 but started loving it.

I already have Nexus 7 and an iPad 2 and a Windows w500 Acer tablet with windows 8

Microsoft needs lower the price to almost the point of giving them away. Yes, they will loose a lot of money at first, but that is the only way they are going to build back market share. The Surface Pro is perfect for the IT person that is on the Go when compared to iPad\Android.. Their marketing has been very weak also.. They need to revamp in that area as well.

Fus10n said,
Microsoft needs lower the price to almost the point of giving them away. Yes, they will loose a lot of money at first, but that is the only way they are going to build back market share. The Surface Pro is perfect for the IT person that is on the Go when compared to iPad\Android.. Their marketing has been very weak also.. They need to revamp in that area as well.

They'll build market share by continuing to build upon the tablet. Rome wasn't built in a day, despite what Apple wants you to believe.

I feel like they should be more competitive than they are now. The can be doing a lot more than they are. Windows 8 has a got off to a rocky start and I feel like they should be really trying to fix that image as well.

"PC" does mean personal computer after all.. If he would have said "desktop replacement" then it would be another story..

Dot Matrix said,
The Pro is a full PC replacement. If someone is looking for a new machine, the Pro can easily fill that spot.

My full PC has a 3TB of HD, the Pro has 0.03TB i guess of even less, it is not a tablet and not a PC

john.smith_2084 said,

My full PC has a 3TB of HD, the Pro has 0.03TB i guess of even less, it is not a tablet and not a PC

You could say the same about the MacBook Air... same size SSD. Is it not a full PC either? (Please ignore the Mac vs PC bit... and yes, variants with larger SSDs)

You can dock the Surface Pro, plug in an external hard drive, keyboard, mouse, huge external monitor... and you're set. For most people's uses. Then, time to leave? Unplug your Surface Pro and run out the door, or use it in your lap on the couch. Or taking handwritten notes in class.

john.smith_2084 said
My full PC has a 3TB of HD, the Pro has 0.03TB i guess of even less, it is not a tablet and not a PC
Just because it doesn't have that much space, doesn't mean it's not a tablet and a PC.. The Surface Pro has USB 3.0 ports that allow you to expend the space, so you're not stuck with what's there.

john.smith_2084 said,

My full PC has a 3TB of HD, the Pro has 0.03TB i guess of even less, it is not a tablet and not a PC

I'm 1 step further, I can push a button on my pc and a coffee holder tray comes out! It's convenient!

Kalint said,

I'm 1 step further, I can push a button on my pc and a coffee holder tray comes out! It's convenient!


Takes me back 10-15 years when people actually thought it was a coffee holder

Dot Matrix said,
The Pro is a full PC replacement. If someone is looking for a new machine, the Pro can easily fill that spot.

Lol when I complained that no one would buy the Surface people raged at me saying why it's such a superior product to every tablet out there. Well here are the results./// Fanboys are fanboys.

john.smith_2084 said,

My full PC has a 3TB of HD, the Pro has 0.03TB i guess of even less, it is not a tablet and not a PC

When used as a desktop PC, my Surface Pro has 13 TB of external USB HD (2*4TB + 1*3TB + 1*2TB)

Dot Matrix said,

They'll build market share by continuing to build upon the tablet. Rome wasn't built in a day, despite what Apple wants you to believe.

I tend to agree with this. I skipped on the RT and Pro this go around. Primarily because there is no LTE connectivity available. However there are still some shortcomings that need to be addressed in the hardware and software. I think MS will very likely address those in the 2nd version.

I am fond of Apple products (two iPads, an iPhone, and an iMac) but I also never buy the first generation of their devices.

onionjuice said
Lol when I complained that no one would buy the Surface people raged at me saying why it's such a superior product to every tablet out there. Well here are the results./// Fanboys are fanboys.
Well it's not because it's a bad product. It's because Microsoft did a poor job at distribution and marketing.

dtourond said,
Well it's not because it's a bad product. It's because Microsoft did a poor job at distribution and marketing.

For whatever reason it doesn't matter. It didn't sell, so it was a failure. ofc the fanboys are going to keep raging telling me it sold 400k units thats so good and bs. Face it surface sucks no one wants it. Its thick and ugly and with 4 hours of battery life.

onionjuice said
For whatever reason it doesn't matter.
Actually it does matter because it shows exactly why it didn't sell like it should've..

onionjuice said
It didn't sell, so it was a failure.
So, you automatically think that anything that doesn't sell well means it's a bad product.

Maybe for you, you can just easily say it's a failure, but for the people with a right mind, they'll factor in the possible reasons as to why it didn't sell as well.

Microsoft didn't really market it as well as they could have. They didn't have enough to keep up with the demand. They didn't distribute as far as they could have. Those 3 things are enough right there to hinder the sales.

Edited by dtourond, Mar 15 2013, 6:30pm :

onionjuice said,

For whatever reason it doesn't matter. It didn't sell, so it was a failure. ofc the fanboys are going to keep raging telling me it sold 400k units thats so good and bs. Face it surface sucks no one wants it. Its thick and ugly and with 4 hours of battery life.

Surface is not a failure, it's a game changer. It's what a tablet should be.

Plus, it's only been on the market for a short time. Months, and it's still be deployed in other markets. Now is not the time for judgment. Two years from now, we'll see, but it is far from a failure.

Dot Matrix said,

Surface is not a failure, it's a game changer. It's what a tablet should be.

Plus, it's only been on the market for a short time. Months, and it's still be deployed in other markets. Now is not the time for judgment. Two years from now, we'll see, but it is far from a failure.

Yeah it changed the game that nobody gives a **** about.

BOOM!

Dot Matrix said,

Surface is not a failure, it's a game changer. It's what a tablet should be.

Plus, it's only been on the market for a short time. Months, and it's still be deployed in other markets. Now is not the time for judgment. Two years from now, we'll see, but it is far from a failure.

You think releasing Surface in other markets will change something? People are still going to buy iPads. If not then Android tablets.

onionjuice said,

You think releasing Surface in other markets will change something? People are still going to buy iPads. If not then Android tablets.

Businesses won't. Not if they have the full power of Windows in a tablet.

Dot Matrix said,

Businesses won't. Not if they have the full power of Windows in a tablet.

What will they use surface for? When they can also develop apps for the iPad which A LOT of business are doing atm.

Dot Matrix said,

Surface is not a failure, it's a game changer. It's what a tablet should be.

Plus, it's only been on the market for a short time. Months, and it's still be deployed in other markets. Now is not the time for judgment. Two years from now, we'll see, but it is far from a failure.

Not really, it is always a matter of personal preferences: a Slate Tablet does not fit my needs and that is the reason why I will get a Lenovo Helix. One size does not fit all....

onionjuice said
You think releasing Surface in other markets will change something? People are still going to buy iPads. If not then Android tablets.
If consumers want toys, then they should go for an iPad or an Android tablet. If they a workhorse tablet that can do a helluva lot of things, then they should go for a tablet running Windows 8.

onionjuice said
they can also develop apps for the iPad which A LOT of business are doing atm.
You need to properly understand the difference between the iPad and a Windows 8 tablet. An iPad is more of a toy, whereas Windows 8 provides the best of both worlds in one tablet.