Editorial

E3 2013: "Microsoft, you have some splainin to do!"

When Microsoft posted up word that the Xbox One console would require an active Internet connection at least once every 24 hours to play games. gamers expressed their displeasure. When Microsoft revealed its convoluted restrictions on how used game discs can be sold or traded to retailers or given to friends, there were even more protests.

This console makes you connect to the Internet, restricts used disc games, and has a higher price. Why?

On Monday, I attended Microsoft's Xbox One press event at E3 2013, where the company revealed the price of the Xbox One would be $499. The thousands of people inside the Galen Center in Los Angeles let out a collective groan on that news. Overall, the Xbox One event was a huge disappointment for many in the crowd.

At the end of the day Monday, Sony held its Playstation 4 E3 2013 press event at the Los Angeles Memorial Sports Arena. At the end of the press conference, Sony revealed that the PS4 would have no restrictions on used game discs, no need to have an Internet connection to play games, and a price of $399.

This was enough to make Sony's E3 2013 press conference better than Microsoft

The crowd inside the arena went absolutely nuts at the reveal of this news from Sony. It was a reaction that Microsoft's news conference should have had but didn't.

It's now clear that the shoe is on the other foot when it comes to Sony vs Microsoft in the console wars. Eight years ago, Microsoft was the company offering a great game console in the Xbox 360 at a affordable price, while Sony launched the PS3 with a price that started at $499. Back then, Sony was on top of the game console business and it thought it could push out anything. They were wrong.

Now it appears that Microsoft, specifically its management team at the Xbox division, thought that the success of the Xbox 360 meant they could do anything they wanted with the Xbox One. That's included putting in restrictions in both the console and in their physical disc games that consumers didn't ask for and, as we have seen in the past few days, clearly don't want.

We had a meeting with Microsoft members at E3 2013 on Tuesday, along with other members of the press, which was supposed to be "Xbox 101". However, what it actually turned out to be was three tech demos for the console (more on those demos in a future post) followed by a very quick Q&A. When asked about the Xbox One's online authentication by another journalist, the Microsoft rep quickly dodged it, saying that those anwers could be found on the Xbox Wire website. It sounds very much like Microsoft is not yet ready to talk about these issues, at least not yet.

Like Lucy, Microsoft has some "splainin" to do

Microsoft Xbox execs now have two choices; either give a really, really good explanation on why the Xbox One has these limits or simply do away with them completely. It would be best for the company, and gamers in general, if it picked the latter choice. If they did, Microsoft and Sony could then compete just in terms of the exclusive games they were offering for their next-gen consoles.

Unfortunately we suspect that Microsoft won't do the right thing. That means the Xbox One could be a sales disaster for the company as the hardcore gamers will flock to the PS4 this holiday season.

Images via Sony, Microsoft and Paramount

Neowin's E3 2013 coverage is sponsored by Alienware

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I find it so funny that people are haggling over the price? The original 360 that I bought costed $399 and it had "a" game that I did even like. It was the Splinter Cell bundle. But at leats it had 2 joypads..

I am sure MS will have or let retailers sale alternatate configs as they always have. You can pay $499 and get the camera. Or $399 without. Or just get the console and a controller for $299.

Or you can wait and see if the sales are so slow that MS encourages them by dropping $100 off the cost to match Sony.

Even tho I have a Kinect, I am not totally sold on it again. For one the games that they do have for it are kinda kiddish for my tastes. I did like Kinect Adventures which I play with my wife on occasion as it give us a nice amount of exercise and its a game we can play together and challenge each other. But other games the sensor is to slow to keep up or the game is boring.

What would be cool is if they took a game like Mortal Kombat and made it a Kinect game and you actually had to do the moves to fight.

I think MS should add 2 incentives for $499. It should either have a game and an extra controller, or a game and come with 6 months of free Xbox Gold membership, or give me $100 worth of points to use to by a game of my choicee. That way at least I am getting a bundled deal for that price.

Actually they don't need to explain anything. It's their box, they have a right to have any restrictions they want. As restrictive as iOS devices are compared to Android devices, you never say anything. Oh but let Microsoft restrict something and they need to explain?

Here is an explaination I would give. This is OUR box. Understand if you buy it, we have enabled some retrictions that you have to loive with. If you don;t like them than it means our product isn;t for you. While you all are complaining? Most people already live within these restrictions unknowningly so thus it isnt even a restrictions. For the claimed fanboi retards that have a problem with it? Well there always has to be a negative crowd.

This is just crazy. Its all the cheap asses who dont want to support the developers of the games that are complaining. I was never one to buy used games because I want to support the developer. I used to work for a game stop so I know how bad they markup the used stuff to begin with. Personally the only thing that creeps me out is the internet thing. I could careless about the not being able to play used games crap. What people dont realize is that even if the PS4 can play used games the developers will put more effort into the Xbox version or just do Xbox exclusives to ensure they get 100% of the revenue and not miss out due to the whole used games thing. So I do not think its the death of the console at all.

Play with a few potential sales numbers and you'll see. 50% of something is always better than 100% of nothing. If Xbone numbers don't get to a certain point, they've cut their own throat in this regard. There's no doubt sales are going to be lower due to this DRM, it's just a matter of if it's enough make a difference. I know I'm not buying one.

The way I see it is like this:
1) in order to allow faster load times, less seek time, games need to be fully installed in HDD, meaning...
2) No DVD check can be performed to prevent piracy, meaning...
3) People can install games and resell/give DVDs to friends, or hack the hard disk and copy the install and publish in Torrent, meaning...
4) Game publishers panic, game piracy at large, therefore...
5) Microsoft put 24 hour log in to check that the game is tied to the same user, same console; to appease publishers.

Microsoft's customers are game players, they should not give a damn about piracy, but if a console is insecure, publishers won't develop for it and the console fails in the market. So DRM is needed so customers will get high quality games. Otherwise, we would have an Android marketplace of games.

I`m actually amazed at how many people who iv`e rarely seen post in any front page topics (and i read most) are now suddeny posting great long posts defending MSFT and saying Sony may do this and that, but haven`t done X.
Something really fishy is going on, am i the only one who thinks it sticks out like a sore thumb.

p.s. These are not just fanboys you can normally spot them quite easily

Companies are very forth coming when they are underdogs. But as soon as they grow big, and financially secure, they become arrogant and start to ignore you. It's always like that... This time it's MS turn. History always repeats.

OMG this phone requires a network connection to be much use to me and I can't resell the apps I've paid for?? I'm soo gonna punish the nasty corporation! What an own goal! /s

sht00 said,
OMG this phone requires a network connection to be much use to me and I can't resell the apps I've paid for?? I'm soo gonna punish the nasty corporation! What an own goal! /s

When your mobile apps are 1$ each, people don't care about sharing. When console games sell for $60 each, it's a different scenario. So yours is an extremely FUD filled analogy.

The price certainly closed the gap for me but it's still the XBone so far for me, only by a small minority though and i could still be swung.

The fact is, i am always online anyway so that's a non-issue and i can still sell, lend and buy used games. I don't have to put the discs in the drive, i can access my library from any xbox and share with up to ten other people.

I was eagerly hoping PS4 would make my job easier, but bar the price, i just didn't see anything compelling in what seemed moor like a PS3.5.

Of course this is all personal thoughts and experience and opinions will differ.

What I haven't seen answered so far on any forum is:

Is/was the reselling of used games legal, or just tolerated till now?
What is/were the EULA's on a game disk?
Anything on lending/reselling etc.regarding copyright?

So, you want answers that you should be able to figure out on your own? Seriously? It's really not that hard.

1) Publishers want this so they can make even more money and the used game market didn't provide that revenue stream and they should be able to get access to that revenue stream. That revenue helps the developers feed their families and helps to create other games. DRM is on everything today from PSN titles to Xbox Live titles to iTunes. It is the future of gaming which is why I can't fathom why people are fighting this so hard, it's already happening, you are not going to stop it and you accept it with Apple and Android, yet a lot of gamers have a big fat cow when Microsoft does it. Amazing.

2) It convenient. You now can switch to any game you want in your library by using your voice and just playing it instantly and switch to it. This is very highly convenient and makes it so that the xbox games are like switching channels on a TV. One of the things I hate doing is trying to find my disk to put in the console from 15 disks, and now your saves happen on the server and you can instantly switch in and out of games at will and instantly just by using your voice.

3) Performance. The games will perform better and have much better loading times on disk and it means that you can play your games in a quiet environment. My consoles now sound like Jet engines when I try to play because it has to speed up the disks and that makes a lot of noise.

4) Server based. Server based processing needs to have a quick and steady environment. If you were to use a disk based approach, it would be harder to follow through with because optical media is harder to deal with on the side of speed and stability then that of a steady hard drive.

Because of this, you might have a limited space for games, but here is the deal. You have 500 Gigabytes and you can also use an external hard drive using USB 3.0 which is like at minimum 5 Gigabits per second. The normal speed of SATA is 3 Gigabits, so that is more than enough. Also, when you need more space you can always uninstall a game, but the save remains on the server, so it's not a big deal. When you install you can start playing right away, so that isn't a big deal either. Once you install you don't need to have the disks around and you can store them away for safe keeping and you won't have to worry about scratches or disk errors much because they won't be used that much, you just need to store them away in a proper place. Not rocket science here.

You guys with your PS4, you guys play games like its 2006 on the PS3, while people that enjoy 2014 will play games at will on the fly without trying to find the game and switching to it instantly. This is part of an overall game changer.

Look, I am not saying the Xbone doesn't have compromises and I am not a shill for Microsoft okay, but let's be rational about this. All of this moaning just isn't a big deal, it isn't. It's not some anti-consumer conspiracy, it is a fact for the entire industry of gaming. The reason why Sony didn't do it because they were scared and they used "Marketing" to try to convince people.

I mean Sony's marketing is so good that E3 was terrible for their games, but you say that they are all about the games. I find that funny because I didn't see any awesome games that I can't play for FREE on my PC already.

I also think its funny because a lot of you hate marketing and Sony markets to you saying they have the games and you guys don't have any skepticism at all and you totally bought it. Hook.... Line... Sinker....

So here's how Microsoft turn this one around; show the consumer benefit to the DRM.
Show me a PS4 game at $59.99 and the same game for Xbox One at $29.99 because the 'restrictive' DRM means the publishers/developers get a bigger piece of the action.

If Watch Dogs and GTA:V were $59.99 or $29.99 which system would you choose?
Its the only sensible reason for taking this decision, which they had to know wouldn't be favoured by consumers.
I'm *hoping* they're waiting for someone to start asking the question about game prices for this generation.
But I'm likely wrong.

Good job man.PS4 is just like a new iPhone,the same crap with new hardware.The only good thing about PS4 are the exclusive games,they're awesome you have to admit it.X1 will still rule.

Its amazing how stupid and selective people are and no matter how many times they are told they refuse to understand...

Point 1 - having to connect every 24 hours

ill start by saying that firstly most of the epic games shown by both Sony and MS aren't worth a cent if you aren't ONLINE!!!....COD, BF4, Titan Fall, Elder scrolls ONLINE MGS 5 etc etc etc etc..dont belive me look at the sales figures for previous generation of these...im talking games that sell a console....NONE of the ****ers are single player focused...

I'm not sure what the **** kind of games most of these HARD CORE gamers play but seriously now if its not online its practically wanking...so if your not wanking and actually playing any of the AAA rated games, your online....so who gives a **** about connecting once in 24 hours...seriously how many people is this really going to alienate??? MS is on record as saying they have somewhere in the vicinity of 50M live accounts out of a total of 76 M consoles sold (not individually sold, tons of people have replaced or have several consoles)...so once again who the **** cares about having to be connected...and **** them if they do in the scheme of things...

Do you think you can any of the cool **** Sony showed without internet????? any of it??? that freaking share button might as well be a wart on your controller without internet...Now you gotta pay Sony for online when just a week ago XBLive was evil now its all good and fine that Sony is charging..

Point 2 - Used games and loaning

MS is on record as saying they definitely support used games..in fact in practically the same way as Sony except for the policy of how games are shared....you can still sell games, you can still go to stores like game stop etc and trade and you can lend games.....NOTE THAT SONY SAID DISC BASED GAMES IN THEIR ****ty SLIDE....they didn't say ALL GAMES ANYTIME ANYWHERE....they played with the context just to get a clap and a woot but in reality they know you going to play network based stuff and have save data in cloud and all the **** they been on about.... cloud based gaming and download based scenarios are where its at starting nowish and into the next future..

the lend the game once to a friend who has been on your friend list for a month etc is a mechanism to stop piracy and offer something that publishers will feel more comfortable about....like it or not (and im not saying i do) its a miniscule piece of nothing in terms of how it will affect my game play....

XBlive has family accounts and ms is allowed sharing between family up to 10 accounts something Sony hasn't yet got a clue about...what no good??? noone heard??? its ****ING GREAT!!! but MS no credit on that...

Point 3 - hardware difference and price

Hardware power bull**** wanking arguments have to stop, really!!!.....did any of you see the game demos shown on Xb1??? they were freaking EEEPPPIIICCCCCCCCC and in every way as good as those on ps4 and in some cases better (personal taste titanfall forza 5)....Even developers like Hideo Kojima a japanese (and up until recently) squarely a SONY guy was on stage at Xb1......you don't think he has any idea what the platforms offer and what they can do??? if hes there then there's more to be told about features like heart beat reading (kinect), being able to use voice etc...All things Sony has no real response for...

Games that are based on popular game engines are built to work the same practically everywhere so you can take you GDR5 and watch it be underutilized when you can already hit 60fps 1080p on xb1....they distinguish on platforms through DLC and release dates usually...

What will happen most likely is Xb1 will be upgraded at the 3 year point to XB1 elite once they recoupe costs and investment or at least start to turn a corner financially....something by the way Sony wont do and not for a long time....their pricing and they're financial situation is dire at best and they need this console to survive practically...they shelled out USD$500 M on a cloud based gaming solution they cant roll-out on launch..PSP piece of **** didn't sell etc etc etc

Did you notice how Gakai wont be available till 2014??? why is that do you think....it might be because while MS roles out 300 K server globally to support shadow players and drivatars, sony will be busy seeing who they can hire to admin they're non existent cloud in the 2 datacentres they are renting...if mega persistent world with killer AI is going to bethe future of gaming, who do you think will sew that up MS or Sony??

You notice how the Sony controller has colored lights in the top and at launch Sony wanked on about how awesome the new Eye will be...yeh will be when you pay the same money as Xb1 by buying the eye separately..in UD Sony is priced at AUD$50 less than Xb1 and the EYE will be a min of $60 if not more...in the US we are talking RRP pricing difference of 100 raw and 40 with EYE and noone ever paid RRP unless they were a freaking moron....If you buy a PS4 and you dont by EYE enjoy the weird light at the top that wont do anything...

is there anyone on the planet arguing that they EYE is not a total piece of **** when compared to kinect and that the new kinect is freaking awesome even if only for voice...i havent said a word about all the **** other than gaming this is going to be useful for but think about it for 1 minute...its going to kill having its features and even if you dont use them, the cost of 1 game difference in pricing is not something to cry about after all if your counting your dollars and cents over a $100 difference, you should consider by a ps3 or 360 or sticking with pc gaming becaue obviously you have finanical issues..

lastly, noone remember the Xbox go Big video??? how the **** is sony going to roll that out with no kinect??? they wont...bottom line Xb1 is much better vale for money hardware wise and MX is banking on connected play being dominant and leveling the playing field so that everyone has a kinect and developers can now build specifically for their platform with confidence..

Point 4 - wrap up

Im sure there will tons of flaming and whining and moaning about the post with dim witted idiots laboring over a point here or there...In short both consoles are going to deliver Epic games and gaming experience... You have to ask your self who is superior online and in cloud as this is where it is and where its going. you have to honestly ask if a couple of policies (something that could be changed by both parties any time anywhere and you will sign up for that in the terms and conditions mind you) are really going to affect you...you have to ask yourself how often are you going to not have any internet (be it through phone, hotel, home etc).... and your going to have to ask if XB1 entertainment options (i.e. everything other than gaming) including cross linking to pc, phone etc through spyglass, skydrive, skype, browser, twitch etc is going to be superior in terms of your living room experience and hence justify the small difference in price..

If you still find that after all that your in that super narrow sliver of non connected, non camera needing, single player gaming going to have 3 or more remotes to control my tv cable box living room experience groups of people, then run along abnd buy a ps4...if not then shut the **** up and relax, its all going to be awesome next gen and grow up, gaming publishers are going to screw you with policy whether you like it or not !!!

let the flaming begin!!!

I'm more interested in Lucy's story cuz I think the neighbor might be involved.

On topic:
MS can still swallow a bit and do a 360 turn (no pun). This will somewhat rectify their image towards XB fans.

HighwayGlider said,
I'm more interested in Lucy's story cuz I think the neighbor might be involved.

On topic:
MS can still swallow a bit and do a 360 turn (no pun). This will somewhat rectify their image towards XB fans.

You do realize a 360 turn would be no change at all right?

Sometimes I feel like the only one who couldn't care less about these "restrictions". I'm buying a day one box, because every game in their E3 pres looked awesome. If my internet is out for more than 24 hours civilisation is crumbling and I should arm myself. Friends can still play games via the 10 family members thing. Bla, blabla, bla.....

JustAnotherTechie said,
Sometimes I feel like the only one who couldn't care less about these "restrictions". I'm buying a day one box, because every game in their E3 pres looked awesome. If my internet is out for more than 24 hours civilisation is crumbling and I should arm myself. Friends can still play games via the 10 family members thing. Bla, blabla, bla.....

I'm with you!

sony and its fans are delusional if they think there is a market for a pure gaming device like there was last gen. what is your selling point? its got better graphics than last gen? I doubt the general consumer could even tell. Microsoft got it right on the money with branching out to the other entertainment markets,like TV,sports and apps. These are what is going to separate the men from the boys. As for the whiny gamers? Microsoft isn't even trying to hide it anymore, they are telling you to **** off. Yesterday, an exec said,if you want an offline machine, it exists,its called xbox 360.

vcfan said,
sony and its fans are delusional if they think there is a market for a pure gaming device like there was last gen. what is your selling point? its got better graphics than last gen? I doubt the general consumer could even tell. Microsoft got it right on the money with branching out to the other entertainment markets,like TV,sports and apps. These are what is going to separate the men from the boys. As for the whiny gamers? Microsoft isn't even trying to hide it anymore, they are telling you to **** off. Yesterday, an exec said,if you want an offline machine, it exists,its called xbox 360.

The PS4 has no real innovation it in whatsoever. The only new feature, game streaming, can also be done on the Xbox One. All the system is really is just the PS3 with better specs. I actually find it pathetic, but that's just me.

Oh and the touchscreen in the middle of the controller is a complete gimmick.

dannyw13 said,
in the uk we have plenty of devices that can stream tv and install apps, we dont need another device that does this..

If given a choice, why would I buy a pure handheld gaming device? Why would I buy a pure gaming console, then another, separate, TV streaming device to go along with it?

I like the direction the Xbox One is heading. Very disappointed that there's no innovation in the PS4 whatsoever other than game streaming, which both can do.

Apps? Where's the SDK? All I saw were a few Microsoft approved apps that I would never use.

edit: And Netflix, which can run on a microwave, let alone the PS4, and is stuck behind a paywall on the xbone.

greenwizard88 said,
Apps? Where's the SDK? All I saw were a few Microsoft approved apps that I would never use.

Check out the BUILD 2013 website... it includes the Xbox logo. They probably have a lot more to share about indie games and apps later this month. And if they do, that's when the Xbox will really shine.

AWilliams87 said,

The PS4 has no real innovation it in whatsoever. The only new feature, game streaming, can also be done on the Xbox One. All the system is really is just the PS3 with better specs. I actually find it pathetic, but that's just me.

Oh and the touchscreen in the middle of the controller is a complete gimmick.


Another thing to note, the PS4 game streaming is not something that is available at launch and could take years to get right.

From a hardcore gamer perspective Sony won. From a top down complete entertainment system, Microsoft did exactly what they set out to do. Microsoft can clean this up simply by tweaking the disc requirements as the licensing restrictions are important to the fast switching install based system. I'm not saying Microsoft is right, but their system is a complete entertainment package meant to be simple and fast for consumers. You want to watch TV while you wait for a game, Xbox can do it. You want to check a strategy video while in game, Xbox can do that. Sony's got Breaking Bad... I have both pre-ordered for now, but since I spend more time on HBO/Showtime a week than games I'm not looking at this as a hardcore gamer.

Xbox has made the mistakes Sony made with the PS3, they got too cocky and assumed they could get away with stuff like this.

I don't get all this hate. Seriously. I don't mind having 24 hour internet checks as I always have an internet connection. But most importantly, I love the fact that I can install games on the Xbox hard drive so I don't have to use discs (which I hated).
The PS4 requires you to always use your original discs (some sort of DRM), which is quite annoying. Also, you'll get terrible performance because of seek times.

Installing will also mean that games load faster (after installation) and on-the-fly loading will be significantly faster. I always installed games once they gave us the option with the Xbox 360. Now, on the 360, developers can take advantage of that requirement as it is dramatically faster than disc-based loading (e.g., textures and models).

Sure... YOU have a 24/7 internet connection, but what happens when some hacker group like Anonymous gets mad at Microsoft and DDoS's their servers for more than 24-hours? Then your fancy, expensive box, and high-speed always-on, reliable internet connection becomes a useless brick and some empty tubes.

This is what happened to Sony for 3 times or more.You can still watch TV with the xbox,and you can do the same with the ps4 don't you?Oh, you can't.Even if xbox live will be out for a day nobody will die and we know microsoft is more secure than sony.

I don't want to watch TV thru my console. I have a TV for that. When I fire up the console I want to play games and just because some authentication server is down (or I have no internet connection because I'm in a cabin in the woods or something) shouldn't mean that I can't play single player games. It's a completely artificial restriction.

Why not just make it require the disc if you are playing offline without a connection?

It doesn't seem like you live in the woods and you don't have internet.I see,you're a ps4 fanboy.But these days everyone has internet,everyone.Say wathever you want but x1 will win this battle.Did you know that ps4 game developers can make gamers pay for rented games? Oh,I guess you didn't.

MeowPurr said,
I don't get all this hate. Seriously. I don't mind having 24 hour internet checks as I always have an internet connection. But most importantly, I love the fact that I can install games on the Xbox hard drive so I don't have to use discs (which I hated).
The PS4 requires you to always use your original discs (some sort of DRM), which is quite annoying. Also, you'll get terrible performance because of seek times.

how do you know ps4 will not let you install to HD like the xbox does ?

Watch 'till some publishers decide to require always on connection on PS4, while it can only require 24 hrs check up in XboxOne.

FloatingFatMan said,
Some will try it, their games won't sell, others will learn from that.

Yeah, that works out, i mean just look at that long dead company EA... oh wait.

publishers will say otherwise....you dont think theyre going to build drm for a game they are releasing for xb1 and remove it for ps4???

They don't have to build DRM for the XB1. Microsoft are handling that for them. Also, PS3's lockdown stayed secure for years. It's only recently that it's been broken, and piracy really isn't anywhere near as much of as issue on that platform because of that.

Publishers will make games for the console that sells best. Gamers will buy consoles that don't <bleep> them off with annoying (and potentially illegal) limitations on what they do with their old games.

The last console generation was Microsoft's, but this next one won't be.

I understand where you're coming from and chances are Publishers will probably not implement any DRM measures since it will just add development costs. But at the same time, we do not know the developers intentions regarding DRM (I'm sure they were well aware of Sony's intentions before we knew) or how strong the security mechanisms are in the PS:4.

I would be happy saying the PS:4 as it stands will be the console to develop for.

As long as this generation of consoles make it easier and provide developers with no real excuse to deliver quality PC versions of their games, I will be happy.

Wow! The Windows 8 debacle. And now the XBOX disaster. Good thing Microsoft has a lot of cash on hand.

They're going to need it.

Windows division pulled pretty great numbers last quarter. Xbox division hasn't always been the greatest money maker, which is probably why they are trying to avoid losses this generation. If Microsoft needed to, theyd sell xbox and be on with their profits.

Really? So, the PS3 requires an internet connection every 24 hours, requires you to install to HD, requires an online game authentication check, doesn't let you sell or loan/give your games to others more than once, or even at all if they're already second hand, doesn't let companies rent games out, and has the capability of spying on you?

Interesting. I never knew that about the PS3. You live and learn.

FloatingFatMan said,
requires you to install to HD

Why do you list the part about installing games to HDD as if it's a bad thing? Thats one of the few GOOD things. It's one of the advantages PC's have had for ages.

You can play the games as they're installing on X1 and you never have to bother with a useless disc ever again, even if you lose the disc it really don't matter. You also get faster load times as disc drives are pathetically slow. Noise is also cut down because of no spinning disc (360's disc drive is stupidly loud).

It's not THAT good a thing, because it's a big part of the reason for the over-restrictive DRM in the first place.

And my 360's drive doesn't make a sound. Perhaps yours is faulty?

FloatingFatMan said,
It's not THAT good a thing, because it's a big part of the reason for the over-restrictive DRM in the first place.

And my 360's drive doesn't make a sound. Perhaps yours is faulty?

Yeah true, but MS could still make things a lot more user friendly and less restrictive even with the installs.

It's a widely known fact that all earlier 360's had loud disc drives. Some more than others as they didn't all use the same drives (different manufacturers). I've used atleast six 360's and they're all loud. They might have fixed this with newer models like the 360 S.

Pretty simple, MS should have it so if you install it to the HD, it requires internet to check authenticity. If in disk drive, no internet required.

Edited by LookitsPuck, Jun 12 2013, 5:27am :

That seems like a fair compromise to me. I wouldn't buy it with the current restrictions, I travel for my job so I take my Xbox with me and I don't always have internet access.

Edited by Chaos at Dawn, Jun 12 2013, 5:50am :

However, in the model that they have, all games are required to be installed. As a result, you could install it to your console and then loan/sell it to a friend that simply unplugs their console.

With that said, I doubt that Microsoft and the game publishers particularly care about the single player market as it's not really the core audience of most games.

This makes me curious about how they will uniquely identify discs. Who is to say that my disc is different from the one in my friend's console to even prevent this? To do this would require a unique ID (likely a simple GUID) on each disc, which would significantly increase the complexity of printing games as each disc is unique at that point. If the disc is not uniquely identifiable, then there must be an install process where we are required to enter a printed unique ID from inside of the box, which would be incredibly lame (or, perhaps just scanning a QR code with the Kinect that fulfills this purpose).

@ Chaos: I've seen that comment on traveling before, and was wondering: What kind of work outside the office/home do you do that you want take your XBox with you?
It must be for longer stays, as being somewhere for a couple of days would make it a lot of hassle.
For short travel stuff, isn't a tablet not a valid alternative if you still want to game?

Just asking, not trolling.

Um, all PC games YEARS ago needed to be installed and STILL required the disc to be in the drive before it even started. Why couldn't MS do the same thing? If it is past the 24 hour check in mark, check to see if a disc is in the drive. If it is, you are good to go.

LookitsPuck said,
Pretty simple, MS should have it so if you install it to the HD, it requires internet to check authenticity. If in disk drive, no internet required.
then someone could buy th game, install it authenticate it then return or sell the disk or give it away. Not an ideal solution.

ctrl_alt_delete said,
then someone could buy th game, install it authenticate it then return or sell the disk or give it away. Not an ideal solution.

I think you understood it wrong. If you dont have any internet connection, it would require you to put the disc in the console to play it offline as a verification check.. the same way the 360 does now when it installs games to the hard drive

Dutchie64 said,
@ Chaos: I've seen that comment on traveling before, and was wondering: What kind of work outside the office/home do you do that you want take your XBox with you?
It must be for longer stays, as being somewhere for a couple of days would make it a lot of hassle.
For short travel stuff, isn't a tablet not a valid alternative if you still want to game?

Just asking, not trolling.

There are consultants at my company who work 3 weeks on, one week off.
I'd assume he's in a similar boat.

Yet people here will defend Microsoft like no tomorrow. If a company does something anti-consumer, they must be mud slinged for it and shown their place. Sony has learnt this the hard way.

They clearly screwed up. I don't usually game on consoles (PC master race) but when i do it's usually 360, my PS3 collects dust.

But the X1 is a disaster, i've never seen a company screw up so badly before the console is even out. I'm fine with the 24hr connection, the games installed to HDD is fine (this is a good thing), but the second hand games and no lending to friends is just STUPID. Price is too high as well, even $449 would be ok because i realise the Kinect 2 is an advanced bit of kit, certainly more advanced than the PS4's simple camera, but $499 is too much considering it's not as powerful as PS4.

astroXP said,
No, I am not defending Microsoft this time. They did screw up this time.

Same here. A totally blown opportunity for Microsoft.

sanke1 said,
Yet people here will defend Microsoft like no tomorrow. If a company does something anti-consumer, they must be mud slinged for it and shown their place. Sony has learnt this the hard way.

I think you should compare overall value they bring to the table. One might say I don't want kinect. Honestly I can say I don't care about live scores for sport game. But even if you say ok it is $100 more expensive, but you have to think about the values down the road. Like illumiroom or realtime screen capture or.... The only mistake microsoft made (which is the same mistake they did for windows 8 and surface) they forgot to show the added value or future path to justify the price point. If customer don't see the instant value or see competitor with less pricepoint bring near the same value they will choose that. I guess its all bad timing and all the issues with second hand games will disappear in few months after lunch.

Meanwhile, PlayStation will repeat baseless lie after baseless lie to try to scare people away from Xbox. They have done it since the original Xbox was released, and they are doing it today.

StephenBratz said,
Meanwhile, PlayStation will repeat baseless lie after baseless lie to try to scare people away from Xbox. They have done it since the original Xbox was released, and they are doing it today.

That should be:
Meanwhile, PlayStation fanboys will repeat baseless lie after baseless lie to try to scare people away from Xbox. They have done it since the original Xbox was released, and they are doing it today.

A perfect example: Microsoft is going to record your voice and video, and send it directly to the NSA. No proof, no shred of evidence, it does not make a difference that Apple and Google has had this ability for years, but now Microsoft can do it, time to generate some lies and FUD to make sure people stay away from Xbox One. And it is from the NSA down to the flat out lie someone posted in the forums about HDMI cables. The play station fanboys are reaching for new, pathetic lows.

I'd be willing to bet they are too far into production to reverse the changes. The whole running the game from the hard drive without the physical media (which is great) requires some sort of DRM otherwise they would have to go back to how it's done on the 360

I'd be willing to bet that very early on in design, they made a decision to put some of the processing and data on The Cloud, since The Cloud is the best thing EVAR, and they ended up with a device that requires regular connection to it.

As a long time PC gamer, the DRM and stuff doesn't even make me blink. That has been the norm since DOS. I would have expected something more like Steam, though... and I at least hope that there are still downloadable demos of most games (as there are for many games on the 360).

But MS made a pretty big mistake, alienating console gamers with DRM/internet connection and PC gamers with sheer price.

We haven't really seen much hands on gaming from either system, and that is what I'm waiting for.

Lone Wanderer Chicken said,
The ps3 is about the same price as the Xbox one with the ps3 camera.
Yes but no one will buy it

kidjenius said,
Higher price is due to Kinect being included isn't it

Well, I wouldn't be so sure.
I mean, ive heard the current Kinect costs 40? or less to make for MS, but they sold it at a whopping 140.
Given the older kinects price to make, I don't think the new one will cost as much and that MS should be putting more of the financial load on their shoulders, especially after putting a big load of crap on ours.

Since when companies see at par with manufacturing cost? They invested in R&D for the product, so they need to get the margins. Anyways, $50 more expensive than PS4 is not the issue here. I am sure people can fork out $50 by skipping few meals The issue is DRM and mandatory once a day internet connectivity which Microsoft needs to relax for any chance of overwhelming success like 360. I see heads rolling in coming months.

auziez said,

Well, I wouldn't be so sure.
I mean, ive heard the current Kinect costs 40? or less to make for MS, but they sold it at a whopping 140.
Given the older kinects price to make, I don't think the new one will cost as much and that MS should be putting more of the financial load on their shoulders, especially after putting a big load of crap on ours.

Well I know for a FACT it cost Apple $200 to make an iPhone yet the 64GB model costs $899 on retail and an unlocke done is over $1000. I don't see you crying about that. Also the manufacturing cost only lowers based on how many you make. The technilogy in the thing is worth more than $140.

In fact try this. Why don;t you see how much it would cost you to build just one on your own using your own money and come back and tell us how lame your post is. We all know these guys mark up their cost vs retail cost.

Consider this fact in the cost. The original connect was built where? Likely China? How much do you think it cost MS to have it made? Then consider the distributions/shipping costs? Then consider how much retailers charge them to place it on their shelf and section off a shelf just for it? Then consider the cost to cover warranty returns?

Another thing...YOU NEVER BUY A CONSOLE OR ACCESSORY WHEN IT FIRST COMES OUT. You wait for the initial rush or poor sales or once the holidays are past so you can buy it at its more averaged costs. I paid $99 for my Kinect. If you paid $140 for it, that means I was the smarter buyer.

TechieXP said,
If you paid $140 for it, that means I was the smarter buyer.

tightwad more like it.
While you were sitting on your arse, I was jumping up and down and bowling with my family.