EU Probes US Online Gambling Laws

The European Union launched an investigation today into U.S. laws on Internet gambling, after European betting companies complained that Washington's actions against them were infringing world trade rules. Online gambling is a growing business, worth potentially $15.5 billion this year alone, and although the US has banned the practice, many European sites want a piece of the American market. The sites claim that the ban, which stops American banks and credit card companies from processing payments to online gambling companies outside the country, discriminates against them while allowing domestic gambling companies, especially those on horse races, to flourish.

"The U.S. has the right to address legitimate public policy concerns relating to Internet gambling, but discrimination against EU companies cannot be part of the policy mix," said EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson, who stated he hoped the issue could be resolved amicably. Officials at the U.S. mission to the EU declined to comment, directing inquiries to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative in Washington.

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Putting a cannibal (who murders someone to eat him) or rapist to death is a perfect punishment. Killing a person to eat his flesh and raping people are below human activities. Torture provides valuable information while raping or eating another person provides nothing but sick pleasure. You cannot equate torturing a terrorist with cannibalism or rape.

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #2.2)
This is about world trade rules, not US domestic policy. The US is first to kick up a stink when it comes to subsidised industries and the like in the EU and yet doesn't like it when the EU complains back. Still, when the US can bypass the Geneva Convention and torture prisoners I hardly think that they're going to give in to something trivial like online gambling.


There is a difference in torturing a German or French soldier who is simply fighting for his country and a terrorist who would not hesitate in torturing anyone (men, women, children). If the enemy is content with torture, then torturing the enemy shouldn't be an issue.

(toadeater said @ #7.2)
What laws make gambling illegal? I don't think such a law is Constitutional to begin with.


There is nothing in the Constitution that prevents a prohibition against gambling. Many states in the U.S. have laws that prohibit it. The U.S. Federal Government itself prohibits most forms of gambling across state lines. If the gambling company is located outside of the U.S., then not only state, but national lines are involved. The law does not discriminate against foreign companies, it prevents those not located in the state where the gambler is from doing that form of 'business' with him or her and, as such, prevents companies from targeting customers in states where gambling is illegal. It also prevents companies from far away from taking advantage of ignorant people who, if taken advantage of would have no recourse. If an Italian or Czech company does not like the law, all it has to do is to do business in the U.S. within the states where their customers are located.

I am not defending unfair advantages to native companies (even though this is not the case here), but is the E.U. doing anything about China, one of the most economically unfair nations in the world? Can a foreign company set up a business China? No. Not unless it wants to start a joint venture with a Chinese company.

(tiagosilva29 said @ #6.4)
Everyone should be porking the bear.


Indeed...

(C_Guy said @ #12)
Isn't it odd how the EU spends so much time worrying about American and not their own issues? Let America worry about America and try to find something meaningful to do with your day. Think up ways to spend Microsoft's money. They earned it, you stole it, so find a way to spend it. I KNOW! Use it to fund more ground-less lawsuits against successful American companies! Come on, take them down a peg! Success in business is a wonderful accomplishment.... unless you're American then it's just evil, right? Find more companies to sue. Just make sure they are American. Don't punish your own.


That's pretty funny, but i doubt that the E.U. only targets U.S. companies; those are the only ones that make the news (here).

(Semental said @ #15)
If the enemy is content with torture, then torturing the enemy shouldn't be an issue.

So it's okay to eat a cannibal for punishment? How about raping a rapist? Just because the US government defends their policy does not make is morally acceptable. Torture is torture.

(z0phi3l said @ #13)
This "probe" would make sense IF the US allowed American online Gambling Companies to operate, but since we have a TOTAL ban to online gambling this is just a waste of time, we are discriminating against ALL gambling companies not just EU companies


I agree, but it's not a total ban, just a ban on all non-chance based bets.

This "probe" would make sense IF the US allowed American online Gambling Companies to operate, but since we have a TOTAL ban to online gambling this is just a waste of time, we are discriminating against ALL gambling companies not just EU companies,


The EU seems to need something to do since they seem to have gotten bored trying to mess with MS, instead of messing with the Fed, maybe Apple should be next, or maybe dig up some more "claims" against Intel

That is what I referred to in my earlier post. (Even things as seemingly innocious as office pools based on the NCAA Division I brackets (men's or women's) are illegal under these statutes, and if they stretch across state lines or involve crossing state lines, then wire-fraud laws are also violated. Remember, the outgoing governor of New York, Eliot Spitzer was basically *collateral damage* over an investigation of an illegal international prostitution ring for violating those same wire-fraud laws.)

Isn't it odd how the EU spends so much time worrying about American and not their own issues? Let America worry about America and try to find something meaningful to do with your day. Think up ways to spend Microsoft's money. They earned it, you stole it, so find a way to spend it. I KNOW! Use it to fund more ground-less lawsuits against successful American companies! Come on, take them down a peg! Success in business is a wonderful accomplishment.... unless you're American then it's just evil, right? Find more companies to sue. Just make sure they are American. Don't punish your own.

You goto work and maybe work hard.

Then you hand over your money in a game of chance, knowing that the bookie is the only winner.

Thats why you should not gamble.

Actually it's a person's choice if they want to or not. You don't get to decide for everyone. And when people do decide to gamble they know the odds are not in their favour, that's the nature of the game.

(C_Guy said @ #11.1)
Actually it's a person's choice if they want to or not. You don't get to decide for everyone. And when people do decide to gamble they know the odds are not in their favour, that's the nature of the game.


Like gha! I know that.

If people wish to chuck their money down the toilet of course thats is their choice.

However, I have seen a lot of broken homes and debts created by gambling.

I thought maybe my comment might make the younger man or woman think about it.

Being as I am an old man thats circumnavigated the block a few times.

(leesmithg said @ #11)
You goto work and maybe work hard.
Then you hand over your money in a game of chance, knowing that the bookie is the only winner.

Yes, bookie is a winner, but there are some people who can predict results quite successfully and can make living out of it. Bookies take 5-20% percent from gambling fund. But Lottery is a real rip-off. Why? Because usually they take twice as much from fund - 40-60% and there is no way to predict results because they are completely random. Lottery makes a looser out of everyone. There is a good saying that "Lottery is a tax for people who don't know mathematics." unlike some forms of gambling where some people still can win because results are much more predictable.

In short, *never mind* that it is also illegal for US-based companies to set up online gaming sites aimed at US citizens that involve wagering real money; how is this discriminatory against the EU or its member nations? (The same statutes that cover this activity also cover bookmaking and even office pools conducted via computer, and are part of the anti-wire-fraud statutes. So, US-based companies can't do it, either; therefore, it cannot be discriminatory.) If you want to place a wager, then you *must* do so in person, and you also must do so where permitted by law. (Even in the few states that permit wagers on out-of-state horse races or other events, the compact is with specific states, and is based on reciprocity with the other state involved. Example: the OTB parlors in New York State.) So, what's the *real* issue here?

(jwjw1 said @ #8.1)
i didn't know the EU was a gambling organization..guess it does fall inline with the 'parasite'....lol
Aw, bless you. I bet you really thought you had me with that one too. Curses.

... after European betting companies complained that Washington's actions against them were infringing world trade rule ...

(naap51stang said @ #7)
Hey, if you want to gamble, that is your business......but, the laws in the USA are what they are. Don't like them?
Get em changed.

What laws make gambling illegal? I don't think such a law is Constitutional to begin with.

(brandnewfantx said @ #6)
EU should stop ****ing around with people... Now they are poking the bear, and this time it will fight back unlike microsoft.

Someone have no clue what is happening with MS eh? MS is fighting back like heck but it isn't helping them much

The US breaks tons of international trade rules. The latest I can recall locally is the softwood lumber dispute, where the US claims lumber from here is subsidized (even though people in the industry are barely able to keep in business, much less receive any special treatment from the government). I believe it has been ruled by a couple dozen courts that the tariffs they imposed are illegal, but they still do it...just to maintain their protectionist policies for local lumber producers.

you say tons but then only reference the lumber industry, and only make a vague generic whaaa comment. seriously, unless you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about, better off to keep your trap shut. the US places tariffs on Canadian lumber because much of it receives government subsidies and US companies cannot otherwise compete. and before you say anything else, you should know that at least where I've worked in Idaho, most of the lumber that came into our yard was Canadian.

the US doesn't do it enough quite frankly, we've had business trashed because foreign competition received unfair support from their governments and then lowered their prices to cost and below cost to drive off competition, and as soon as the US even considered imposing tariffs to make things fair, was met with huge outcry from foreign interest, the memory market in past years, for example.

There was also steel, cheese and airlines just off the top of my head. The point is we live in an international community and everyone has to make some concessions that are governed by an international body - the WTO. You cannot simply have a government subsidising industries to gain an unfair advantage in the international market place. We're not talking about protecting US jobs here - we're talking about the US costing jobs elsewhere through unfair and illegal subsidisation.

People are well aware of the situation and its affects on jobs. In the UK we have fishermen coming from countries that don't even have any coastlines because of quotas imposed by the EU - that affects us but we also gain in other areas. Obviously everyone wants to balance the situation so they don't lose out but you can't win on every single issue.

(thornz0 said @ #5.1)
you say tons but then only reference the lumber industry, and only make a vague generic whaaa comment. seriously, unless you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about, better off to keep your trap shut. the US places tariffs on Canadian lumber because much of it receives government subsidies and US companies cannot otherwise compete. and before you say anything else, you should know that at least where I've worked in Idaho, most of the lumber that came into our yard was Canadian.
.

So you personally attack me, provide no information whatsoever, and continue to argue what was proven false by numerous international trade courts....and you want me to take you seriously?

(thornz0 said @ #5.1)
the US doesn't do it enough quite frankly, we've had business trashed because foreign competition received unfair support from their governments and then lowered their prices to cost and below cost to drive off competition, and as soon as the US even considered imposing tariffs to make things fair, was met with huge outcry from foreign interest, the memory market in past years, for example.

Well buddy, I have tons of friends who do work in the forestry industry, and they would slap you for saying that. In order to be a simple logger here you have to:
create your own corporation
buy your own equipment
provide your own insurance (you can't sue anyone for injuries you suffer)

The lumber industry simple does not hire someone, they contract every single individual (and you MUST have a corporation with only you in it). Furthermore, you must now re-plant what you cut down, and pay numerous environmental fees.
Now if you consider that substidized, then 100% of industries in Canada and the world are substidized.
The tariffs are in place PURELY due to corporate greed by companies down south and their powerful lobby groups.

Besides hundreds of mill towns shutting down over the last decade, and a complete collapse of the industry, you would be hard pressed to find a single person who agrees with you except your government.

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #5.2)
There was also steel, cheese and airlines just off the top of my head. The point is we live in an international community and everyone has to make some concessions that are governed by an international body - the WTO. You cannot simply have a government subsidising industries to gain an unfair advantage in the international market place. We're not talking about protecting US jobs here - we're talking about the US costing jobs elsewhere through unfair and illegal subsidisation.

People are well aware of the situation and its affects on jobs. In the UK we have fishermen coming from countries that don't even have any coastlines because of quotas imposed by the EU - that affects us but we also gain in other areas. Obviously everyone wants to balance the situation so they don't lose out but you can't win on every single issue.

Last time I checked, the WTO has been hearing many cases regarding the U.S., and the U.S. has abided by its rulings.

Something I'm missing here?

But let's stick to the matter at hand... why should European companies not have to abide by U.S. laws when competing in the U.S.? You had a very different view when it was Microsoft competing in the European countries

(Ayepecks said @ #5.4)
Last time I checked, the WTO has been hearing many cases regarding the U.S., and the U.S. has abided by its rulings.

Something I'm missing here?


Yes. The US has ignored a ruling by the WTO on this very subject.

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #5.5)

Yes. The US has ignored a ruling by the WTO on this very subject.

Source? Where has the U.S. ignored that ruling? All you did was give the ruling, you didn't give any source at all saying the U.S. ignored their ruling, just as every single other instance you've given. Where has the U.S. violated that ruling FOR ANTIGUA? You seem to be overlooking the fact that it applies to that country alone on purpose.

And, please, get back on topic. How is this any different than the EU finding Microsoft excessively? If you want to play in America, you abide by America's laws, plain and simple. Microsoft has to do it in Europe, and I agree with the EU's decision to fine Microsoft, I just found it to be excessive. The United States has not excessively fined any European country from what I've seen in the news.

(Ayepecks said @ #5.6)
Source? Where has the U.S. ignored that ruling?

The link I provided explained how the US was punished by the WTO for the banning of online gambling. Did you actually read it?

(Ayepecks said @ #5.6)
How is this any different than the EU finding Microsoft excessively?

This is about protectionism and discrimination against EU companies. This is also about the US actively looking to target EU companies that operated in the US before the restrictions were imposed. The EU is taking this matter up through the WTO, which DOES have impact over the US. So, yes - they are very different matters.

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #5.7)

The link I provided explained how the US was punished by the WTO for the banning of online gambling. Did you actually read it?


This is about protectionism and discrimination against EU companies. This is also about the US actively looking to target EU companies that operated in the US before the restrictions were imposed. The EU is taking this matter up through the WTO, which DOES have impact over the US. So, yes - they are very different matters.


Um, yes, I did read it... did you? The source you posted was not that the U.S. ignored a WTO ruling, as you claimed. The source said there was a WTO ruling and said nothing over the U.S. ignoring it.

Maybe you should read your sources next time. The U.S. has not violated that ruling since it's occurred.

Furthermore, the matters are not "very different." If you want to compete in business in a country, you abide by that country's rules, plain and simple. I think even you can comprehend that. Now, please, if you are going to throw out claims, please tell me how the U.S. is discriminating against European countries. They have to abide by the exact same rules from everything I've read on this topic. Nothing more, nothing less. Please tell me what the discrimination is.

(Ayepecks said @ #5.8)
Um, yes, I did read it... did you? The source you posted was not that the U.S. ignored a WTO ruling, as you claimed. The source said there was a WTO ruling and said nothing over the U.S. ignoring it.

Following the link explains how the US blocked gambling illegally and awarded compensation to Antigua.

"The ruling ends a legal battle lasting nearly five years, which ended in the WTO finding that Washington had wrongly blocked online gambling operators on the island from the American market at the same time it allowed online wagering on horse racing."
So... ban implemented by US - deemed illegal by WTO - compensantion awarded to Antigua - ban still in place. So the US ignoring the WTO.

(Ayepecks said @ #5.8)
If you want to compete in business in a country, you abide by that country's rules, plain and simple.

I agree completely - for it to be any other way would be ridiculous. However, countries also have to abide by international laws and respect the WTO.

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #5.9)

Following the link explains how the US blocked gambling illegally and awarded compensation to Antigua.

"The ruling ends a legal battle lasting nearly five years, which ended in the WTO finding that Washington had wrongly blocked online gambling operators on the island from the American market at the same time it allowed online wagering on horse racing."
So... ban implemented by US - deemed illegal by WTO - compensantion awarded to Antigua - ban still in place. So the US ignoring the WTO.


I agree completely - for it to be any other way would be ridiculous. However, countries also have to abide by international laws and respect the WTO.

Whoa, don't change what we were discussing. The U.S. did not violate a WTO ruling, as you claimed numerous times. Errors are going to occur when it comes to laws, and there was absolutely nothing to imply that what the U.S. was doing was illegal.

And I agree that countries need to abide by international law (well, there are some things I disagree with, but that's about completely unrelated subjects). But the WTO has not ruled on this issue yet, so to say they're disobeying the WTO is a little silly.

(Ayepecks said @ #5.10)
And I agree that countries need to abide by international law (well, there are some things I disagree with, but that's about completely unrelated subjects). But the WTO has not ruled on this issue yet, so to say they're disobeying the WTO is a little silly.

I may have been mistaken, in which case I apologise. However, the end result is that US actions were deemed illegal / unfair by the WTO and sanctions were imposed to punish the US.

Really this is a domestic issue. If these companies want to come in to the US they should set up different servers that abide by the US laws. They can have different versions of the sites for everyone else.

The EU should not be interfering in Domestic US policy. ( And I would agree vice versa, even though the US also does it).

This is about world trade rules, not US domestic policy. The US is first to kick up a stink when it comes to subsidised industries and the like in the EU and yet doesn't like it when the EU complains back. Still, when the US can bypass the Geneva Convention and torture prisoners I hardly think that they're going to give in to something trivial like online gambling.

(Zirus said @ #2)
The EU should not be interfering in Domestic US policy. ( And I would agree vice versa, even though the US also does it).

Fine but US must stop interfering with :
UK
France (now, cause the current president).
Germany
Spain
Almost all "european east countries".
Iraq
Iran
Libia
Mexico
Canada
Venezuela
Colombia
Salvador
Nigeria
South Africa
Congo
Liberia
Cameron
Ethiopia
Tobago
South Korea
Japan
Pakistan
Afghanistan

(Magallanes said @ #2.3)

Fine but US must stop interfering with :
UK
France (now, cause the current president).
Germany
Spain
Almost all "european east countries".
Iraq
Iran
Libia
Mexico
Canada
Venezuela
Colombia
Salvador
Nigeria
South Africa
Congo
Liberia
Cameron
Ethiopia
Tobago
South Korea
Japan
Pakistan
Afghanistan

And Brazil, please.

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #2.2)
Still, when the US can bypass the Geneva Convention and torture prisoners I hardly think that they're going to give in to something trivial like online gambling.

You have a LOT to learn about international law. First, the US is not bypassing the Geneva Convention. I suggest you read it. Terror suspects, or whatever you want to call them, are "unlawful combatants" under the Geneva Conventions (Geneva Convention III). I don't care what you call them, freedom fighters, mercanaries, terrorists...they are all the same under the GC: Unlawful Combatants. As such, they are afforded one right, a right to a tribunal to determine their combat status. And guess what...they are getting that.

Second, if you think what you are being fed by CNN is torture, I suggest you actually try it instead of reading about it.

Third, this argument has ABSOLUTELY no place in the debate at hand. This is a logical fallacy, and is attempting to drum up an emotional response.

Fourth, you are a complete idiot if you believe that the Geneva Conventions and online gambling are in the same category. Just because you disagree with how a country deals with one doesn't mean it has any bearing on the other

Fifth, who's the one making the stink about the US's "torture" of prisoners? A bunch of NGO's, US Citizens, and news agencies. I have yet to hear a government speak out against the US in this. And that's because they do the exact same thing.

I could go on for a long time deconstructing your argument, but I know you are going to come back with an illogical, emotional response. There is no debating emotion, because your judgement is clouded by your feelings and you will never listen to reason.

(BigDaddy5 said @ #2.5)
You have a LOT to learn about international law. First, the US is not bypassing the Geneva Convention. I suggest you read it. Terror suspects, or whatever you want to call them, are "unlawful combatants" under the Geneva Conventions (Geneva Convention III).

There is no "unlawful combatant" status defined in the GCIII. If you're just going to make things up then how can I possibly win any discussion? A judgement was made stating:

"Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention."
"There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law"
"They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action"

So they are either prisoners of war or may be prosecuted domestically. Military tribunals with no accountability do not come under "domestic law". A gunman at a school shooting is not taken by the military, tortured and then setenced by a military tribunal. More importantly, "illegal combatant" is simply a term used by the US to get around the Geneva Conventions.

NEway, my point is that the US flagrantly abuses international law. I did NOT imply that online gambling and the US torture of "illegal combatants" are similar matters in the slightlest. I was simply pointing out that the US likes to gets its own way at the expense of international relations.

(BigDaddy5 said @ #2.5)
I have yet to hear a government speak out against the US in this. And that's because they do the exact same thing.

I'm talking about state sanctioned torture of the kind used in Guantanamo Bay. I am not talking of individual military personnel, of which there have been cases (though none matching Abu Graib by the US).

Fifth, who's the one making the stink about the US's "torture" of prisoners? A bunch of NGO's, US Citizens, and news agencies. I have yet to hear a government speak out against the US in this. And that's because they do the exact same thing.

I know for a fact Norway among several European coutnires have officially protested the US' use of torture. but of course US media woulnd't be reporting this :)

The water torture thing IS and WAS illegal as admitted by the US government even.

As for this law, it's funny how all the Americans complain when the EU does something against US corporations working in Europe. BUT when the US blocks and treats european companies unfairly, oh then it's all right, and again the EU is in the wrong for protesting to the US about this... sheeesh...

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #2.6)
There is no "unlawful combatant" status defined in the GCIII. If you're just going to make things up then how can I possibly win any discussion? A judgement was made stating:

"Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention."
"There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law"
"They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action"

So they are either prisoners of war or may be prosecuted domestically. Military tribunals with no accountability do not come under "domestic law". A gunman at a school shooting is not taken by the military, tortured and then setenced by a military tribunal. More importantly, "illegal combatant" is simply a term used by the US to get around the Geneva Conventions.


I suggest you read GCIII in it's entirety. Article 5 specifically states:
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

Yes, it says tribunal. Read artricle 4 to understand what makes a lawful combatant a lawful combatant.

There is no such term as a "civilian" in international law. The opinion you cited (with no source) is blurring the lines in an attempt to appeal to emotion. In international law governing armed conflict, there are 3 types of people, noncombatants, lawful combatants, and unlawful combatants.
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac_2.htm

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #2.6)
NEway, my point is that the US flagrantly abuses international law. I did NOT imply that online gambling and the US torture of "illegal combatants" are similar matters in the slightlest. I was simply pointing out that the US likes to gets its own way at the expense of international relations.

You brought up torture to say that the US ignores international laws. You absolutely did imply this.

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #2.6)
I'm talking about state sanctioned torture of the kind used in Guantanamo Bay. I am not talking of individual military personnel, of which there have been cases (though none matching Abu Graib by the US).

Abu Graib was not torture. It was humiliation. And if you think that's torture, I suggest you do some research into the subject. Check into what China does to enemies of the state, or what Vietnamese troops did to captured US soldiers. Check into what African rebels are doing to their own people. Check into what Middle Eastern nations do to their own criminals. Oh, and not to leave you out, look into how European "black" agencies extract their information from enemies of the state.

(HawkMan said @ #2.7)
As for this law, it's funny how all the Americans complain when the EU does something against US corporations working in Europe. BUT when the US blocks and treats european companies unfairly, oh then it's all right, and again the EU is in the wrong for protesting to the US about this... sheeesh...

Check into when I have ever complained about this. I'm American, and I don't. Funny how ALL non-Americans stereotype Americans. See what I did there?

If an American corporation wants to do business in a European country, they must abide by their laws, it's that simple. When I lived in Europe, I had to follow the nation's laws in which I lived. If I didn't like it, I was free to leave. Guess what...that's how it works!

(BigDaddy5 said @ #2.8)
Abu Graib was not torture. It was humiliation. And if you think that's torture, I suggest you do some research into the subject. Check into what China does to enemies of the state, or what Vietnamese troops did to captured US soldiers. Check into what African rebels are doing to their own people. Check into what Middle Eastern nations do to their own criminals. Oh, and not to leave you out, look into how European "black" agencies extract their information from enemies of the state.

Why go that far? The US has electrocuted the testicles of detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

(BigDaddy5 said @ #2.8)
There is no such term as a "civilian" in international law. The opinion you cited (with no source) is blurring the lines in an attempt to appeal to emotion.

Emotion? I've never heard such a ridiculous thing. They were plain statements made by the International Committee of the Red Cross back in 1958. I'm sorry but you're not being at all objective.

I also find it interesting that since this news post there have been huge sweeping changes made to the Wikipedia article on Unlawful Combatants, removing keys sections that went against US policy. I really hate Wikipedia at times. The term is unaccepted by international law and was hijacked by the US in order to torture prisoners - it is simply a way of getting around the Geneva Conventions and the protections they offer.

(BigDaddy5 said @ #2.8)
There is no such term as a "civilian" in international law.

Nonsense. The Geneva Conventions are international law and the fourth Geneva Convention deals specifically with civilians.

I'm not going to discuss this with you further. What you are saying ranges from simple nonsense to patent lies and I have no interest wasting my time picking apart all your mistakes. This is diminishing my original point, which was that the US has little regard for international law.

(theyarecomingforyou said @ #2.10)
Emotion? I've never heard such a ridiculous thing. They were plain statements made by the International Committee of the Red Cross back in 1958. I'm sorry but you're not being at all objective.

I also find it interesting that since this news post there have been huge sweeping changes made to the Wikipedia article on Unlawful Combatants, removing keys sections that went against US policy. I really hate Wikipedia at times. The term is unaccepted by international law and was hijacked by the US in order to torture prisoners - it is simply a way of getting around the Geneva Conventions and the protections they offer.


So you rely in an NGO's opinion and a wikipedia article. Great sources. Neither have you bothered to cite either. The Red Cross, while an excellent organization, is not an authority on international law. They may have an opinion on the manner, and their opinion may be important...it's just an opinion.

Nonsense. The Geneva Conventions are international law and the fourth Geneva Convention deals specifically with civilians.

I'm not going to discuss this with you further. What you are saying ranges from simple nonsense to patent lies and I have no interest wasting my time picking apart all your mistakes. This is diminishing my original point, which was that the US has little regard for international law.


...and they classify them under noncombatants. And while it may be diminishing your original post, you brought it up. If you bothered to read the Geneva Conventions, you would know that the US is following international law in this regard. So while you chose a source that many people would agree with, it is technically wrong in this argument, thus you've done a good enough job diminishing your original post on your own.

I remember way back last year they made new rules against gambling in SecondLife and this ****ed off alot of European users because of this law.