Former WP7 evangelist on why it hasn't taken off

Charlie Kindel was on the Windows Phone team at Microsoft as an app developer, before he left in August to form his own start up company. However, that doesn't mean he has forgotten about Microsoft and Windows Phone. In a new blog post on his personal web site, Kindel gives his opinion on why Windows Phone has yet to gain a lot of traction with the general smartphone buying public.

Kindel isn't being critical of the operating system itself. Indeed, he believes that Windows Phone is much better than the competition. In a previous blog post, he states, "A typical non-geek consumer would be absolutely-fraking-crazy to pick an Android phone over a Windows Phone. Windows Phone is vastly more refined, cohesive, and easy to use. Period."

So why are Android smartphones selling more devices than Windows Phone products? Kindel believes that Google makes things easier for both device makers and wireless carriers with Android. He states, "It enabled device manufactures to do what they do best (build lots of devices). It enabled carriers to do what they do best (market lots of devices). It enabled users tons of choice."

For Windows Phone, Microsoft has made the decision to have more control over what devices are made by the phone manufacturers and how the devices will be updated via wireless carriers. As a result, Kindel claims the marketing dollars go to the Android devices from those carriers. Kindel says, "Spending marketing dollars advertising WP7 requires Microsoft to push hard on the carriers."

All is not lost, however. Kindel says that Microsoft's relationship with Nokia on its new Lumia smartphones could signal a change in Windows Phone's market share. He states, "I know that MS can be very persistent & patient; it’s been so in the past. We will see."

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The biggest problem with WP7 market share is all these fandroids pushing android on everyone they know because it's "open". They need to stop being bias and let the non-techy people have their own opinions instead of just saying Android is best go get one now... I'm positive there will be big shifts in the market one more droid, iOS and blackberry contracts start coming up.

I have been faithful to the platform since Pocket PC came out. I am so involved with Microsoft products that everyone calls me ofc an MS fanboy and I won't refuse I am. I had an HTC Mozart, HD7 and now HTC Radar. Fact that WP7 is miles behind in comparison to the other platforms has been hitting me hard the past couple of months. Other platforms release something today and Microsoft is to implement them in a years time. They shouldn't had rushed the platform until they dealt with the current limitations of WP7.x. WP7 should of had what Windows Mobile 6.5 had to offer + new stuff from day 1. iPhone failed to evolve as well. Same **** UI for the past 5 releases Looks like I will be going for an Android 4.0 quite soon and this will hurt my ego
And dont get me started with the Lumia. Its last years smart phone released now. They just had to wait for everyone else to catch up with Mango until they released and that hurt them bad. Not to mention that the Lumia 800 has less features than the HTC Titan but costs the same. And dont say its the cost of the Nokia Apps

for my personal use, wp7 lacks two killer app:
1- google maps (bing is far away to compete)
2- chance to switch to google search instead of bing default button.

and it will not never have ...

neorik said,
for my personal use, wp7 lacks two killer app:
1- google maps (bing is far away to compete)
2- chance to switch to google search instead of bing default button.

and it will not never have ...

1. Nokia Maps is coming to ALL Windows Phone devices so why would anyone need Google Maps?

2. Why would Microsoft bother to sign a deal with Google to use Google Search when they have Bing? (Google Search is available in the Marketplace using the POS that Google call a WP7 app)

3. "not never have", being a double negative does that mean it will?

No one on this site is an average consumer.

Average consumers have lives. Average consumers use computers/internet maybe an hour a week.

Average consumers are on the go people who don't have time to dedicate to making informed purchasing decisions.
They rely on their salesperson to give them the best advice.

Think about it, how many people do you see driving vehicles that are lemons because they like the colour.

The same goes for the rest of technology. Anyone who goes to a website in advance to learn about the technology they are interested in purchasing is immediately elimiinated as the 'average consumer'.

If microsoft were smart, they'd get rid of the Microsoft and Windows names from this product simply because this average consumer they are marketing toward have been disappointed in the past by these names.

The average consumer has limited purchasing power. I live in a small city of 40,000 people. I consider most of these hard working class citizens average. They buy when things break and when contracts end. They don't care about updates, they don't care about apps. They care that they can place a call, send a text, mms their junk to their loved ones, and maybe read a funny email.

We technological elite need to get our heads out of our own self righteousness, and start producing things that work for the average consumer.

During the christmas break, I had an opportunity to do a littlle experiment with my non-tech family. Three phones in question.

Samsung Galaxy S Captivate - Android
Samsung Focus - Windows Phone
Samsung <featurephone> - bada?

I asked my brother who doesn't own a cell phone, to try to make a call on each phone. It took < 10s on Windows Phone. It took 40s on Galaxy S. He gave up on the bada phone.

When I asked him which phone he'd buy, he said the galaxy, because it's not Windows.

My Sister-in-law, when I offered to give her my spare LG Quantum, said Ewwww LG. Keep that away from me. Her experience with the hadware brand was her stopping point.

These people are average consumers. Brand recognition & differentiation is getting to be very difficult for the average consumer. When brands they trust sit side by side with brands they don't, consumer skepticism begins. This is what's hurting adoption of Windows phones.

dotf said,
My Sister-in-law, when I offered to give her my spare LG Quantum, said Ewwww LG. Keep that away from me. Her experience with the hadware brand was her stopping point.

I forgot to mention, she said she'd happily give up her Android powered Galaxy S for something else that could offer her a decent slider.

40 seconds? Guess you removed the phone icon on the home screen? I just tried showing my phone to an iPhone user with the same task. Took less than 10 seconds.

Karanlos said,
....

Yes but a non-user is different than an iPhone user.

To someone who isn't familiar with either a Metro (Live Tile based) UI or Icon based UI, the icon based UI takes a lot longer to comprehend than the Tile based UI.

Sure, inability to do simplest tasks like synchronize contacts locally (because sombody at Microsoft decided to FORCE cloud mentality on users), inability to use WP7 as USB storage device, very poor choice of apps, etc. have nothing to do with WP7 unpopularity. Yes, WP7 is a good phone, but so is Nokia 6210.

There is simply no market for WP7. Those who are after the type of experience delivered by WP7, they will simply pick up an iPhone. Indeed, iOS is far more flexible than WP7 and that's saying something. Those looking at the budget end will inevitably pick up an Android device, and serious geeks like myself will plump for the high-end Android phones.

I only know two people who own a WP7 device, myself included. The other guy can't wait for his contract to come up for renewal after I let him play around with my SGS2.

The only thing WP7 has going for it is speed. But there's a good reason for that. It's just two screens and nothing else. The 'multitasking' just isn't up to scratch when you compare it to Android and waiting for apps to 'resume' makes it feel like the system is kicking you in the balls if you're trying to switch between them.

JohnnyLemonhead said,

The only thing WP7 has going for it is speed. But there's a good reason for that. It's just two screens and nothing else. The 'multitasking' just isn't up to scratch when you compare it to Android and waiting for apps to 'resume' makes it feel like the system is kicking you in the balls if you're trying to switch between them.

You do realize that is the lazy developers fault not to take advantage of the resume with multitasking. The apps that were updated for Mango resume instantly with no problems. Should Microsoft step on toes and update all the apps in the marketplace?

Nexus69 said,

You do realize that is the lazy developers fault not to take advantage of the resume with multitasking. The apps that were updated for Mango resume instantly with no problems. Should Microsoft step on toes and update all the apps in the marketplace?

You're right. But with so few apps to choose from, it's not like there's any alternative to the apps which haven't been updated for Mango. The fluidity is there, it runs silky smooth compared to Android on my HD2 but there needs to be more customisation to make WP7 a serious player. There's simply nothing to do on it.

When I got my first Android phone, HTC Desire, I spent hours tweaking and playing around with it to get it exactly how I liked. The same went with the SGS2, with the horsepower of that phone opening up a whole new realm of possibilities.

When I installed WP7, I spent about 5 minutes customising it (changing the colour of the tiles is all you can actually do) and then 30 minutes trying to find apps which did anything like ones I had on Android before realising they simply didn't exist.

Out of the majority of the posts here you are one of the few who makes a point and it is legitimate.

Most of the others are complaining about something that is or is not and then compare it to something totally different. Its like listening to a baboon. lol

He is wrong. People are fed up with Windows/Microsoft. They tie Windows with crashes, lost data, formatting and re-installing OS, viruses, trojans, rootkits..... They see the Windows logo on the phones and turn away. No advertisements can persuade most of them to buy another Windows hardware.

Microsoft should change WP7 name and remove the logo, but I think that the damage has already been done.

So they abandoned their older OS technologies and app compatibility for major change in strategy like touch first without clumsy interfaces or stylus, being able to update the OS more faster without carrier or OEM slowing it, app model like Apple, That's all good, but even after Mango, WP doesn't do many *good things* that Windows Mobile did. MS should be striving for a more feature-complete OS, it's not. Android and its more diverse app market cover more ground feature-wise. For instance, One from several dozens of lacking features still is local PC sync with Outlook or <your favorite PIM app>. Or EAP authentication. Especially many enterprise features that WM6.5 supported as missing. As already pointed out, the app diversity of WM was very rich because of many years of development and abandoning and resetting everything is not the correct way to go. WP is an incomplete successor to WM, a work in progress.

"A typical non-geek consumer would be absolutely-fraking-crazy to pick an Android phone over a Windows Phone..."

I guess the world is a whole lot more crazy than poor 'ol Mr. Kindel can comprehend.

WP7 is still missing far too many basic features for me to make the switch permanently. Maybe in a few more version it'll start to get there, but for now, Mango just doesn't cut it compared to Android.

FloatingFatMan said,
WP7 is still missing far too many basic features for me to make the switch permanently. Maybe in a few more version it'll start to get there, but for now, Mango just doesn't cut it compared to Android.

Such as...

dhan said,

Such as...

Independant volume settings for alarms, notifications, ringtones and media.
DiVX/MKV support
Usable turn by turn navigation
Application sideloading
UI customisation
Decent browser
Flash content
USB Drive mode

etc...

If it weren't for the updates I can download from XDA for my HTC Desire, I probably would have bought a WP7 phone.

1. Windows Mobile devices have outdated, underpowered hardware at the same price or higher than more powerful Android devices.
2. Android is open. You can sideload and use custom roms officially.
3. Anybody can develop an app for it without paying anything up front.
4. It uses Java. A well established and supported multi-platform JIT language.
5. You can customise Android to your heart's content.
6. Android has features like NFC Beam, Face Unlock, and Data usage management tools iOS and WP users can only dream of.

The question isn't why aren't people buying WP devices, but why are people buying WP at all. It has none of the benefits of Android, and all the problems of iOS, namely, the closed system mentality, and lack of diversity and innovation.

Maybe in a world of geeks, but your points do not apply to the average smart phone user. Just as Kindle said in his post: "A typical non-geek consumer would be absolutely-fraking-crazy to pick an Android phone over a Windows Phone. Windows Phone is vastly more refined, cohesive, and easy to use. Period."

The average smart phone user will look at Windows Phone and laugh their head off at the interface and buy Android or iPhone which have a more familiar and by far sleeker OS.

WP is just atrociously ugly, there's no way around it.

Someone else that comments on a product they have never used. I was on an iPhone and Android phone before switching over to WP7. The flow of apps and how everything works together can't be touched by iOS and Android. I would never go back to Android.

Gungel said,
Maybe in a world of geeks, but your points do not apply to the average smart phone user. Just as Kindle said in his post: "A typical non-geek consumer would be absolutely-fraking-crazy to pick an Android phone over a Windows Phone. Windows Phone is vastly more refined, cohesive, and easy to use. Period."

And this is the point of contention. I think many of us do not agree with his opinion. I do believe that people care. A slightly less refined product that is much more open is always the better solution.

Gungel said,
Someone else that comments on a product they have never used. I was on an iPhone and Android phone before switching over to WP7. The flow of apps and how everything works together can't be touched by iOS and Android. I would never go back to Android.

I am sure you enjoy, among other things, WP7 backup system...... (Sarcasm)

Joey S said,
1. Windows Mobile devices have outdated, underpowered hardware at the same price or higher than more powerful Android devices.
2. Android is open. You can sideload and use custom roms officially.
3. Anybody can develop an app for it without paying anything up front.
4. It uses Java. A well established and supported multi-platform JIT language.
5. You can customise Android to your heart's content.
6. Android has features like NFC Beam, Face Unlock, and Data usage management tools iOS and WP users can only dream of.

I am a geek and your top 5 points just dont factor into anything I would look for in a smartphone. I've used android and ive also come from a WinMo background which had an amazing level of customisation and diversity of apps (and technology years ahead of any rival, back in the day),

However, openness is just a novelty, at the end of the day consumers and myself included just want a device that works, is quick and easy and has plenty of nice looking apps to choose from. Android no doubt has some traction because of its openness, which does resonate with many, but undoubtably alot of its success has been in the low end side of the market as well as the ease by which carriers can push onto consumers.

MiukuMac said,

WP is just atrociously ugly, there's no way around it.

Not only that--but Apple (and to an extent, Android) has an excellent support model. Microsoft, on the other hand, does not support it's products directly. They'll instead steer you to a useless (and geek-level) KB article or punt you to the carrier. They've done this to me in the past with WM5 when I had a bluetooth issue with my HTC Wizard. Microsoft: "Call AT&T". AT&T: "Call HTC". HTC: "Call MS". MS: "Call AT&T--we don't do end-user support of mobile devices". Me to AT&T: "Get me an iPhone"

MiukuMac said,

WP is just atrociously ugly, there's no way around it.

Not only that--but Apple (and to an extent, Android) has an excellent support model. Microsoft, on the other hand, does not support it's products directly. They'll instead steer you to a useless (and geek-level) KB article or punt you to the carrier. They've done this to me in the past with WM5 when I had a bluetooth issue with my HTC Wizard. Microsoft: "Call AT&T". AT&T: "Call HTC". HTC: "Call MS". MS: "Call AT&T--we don't do end-user support of mobile devices". Me to AT&T: "Get me an iPhone"

Joey S said,
1. Windows Mobile devices have outdated, underpowered hardware at the same price or higher than more powerful Android devices.
2. Android is open. You can sideload and use custom roms officially.
3. Anybody can develop an app for it without paying anything up front.
4. It uses Java. A well established and supported multi-platform JIT language.
5. You can customise Android to your heart's content.
6. Android has features like NFC Beam, Face Unlock, and Data usage management tools iOS and WP users can only dream of.

1. Android needs higher-powered hardware because it's an unoptimised kludge.
2. Frankly, I don't care. I may have cared when I was 16, but I don't anymore.
3. You can privately develop iOS and WP7 apps for free, you just have to pay to distribute them in the store.
4. Just because Java is popular doesn't mean it's not ****. Java is notorious for having bottom-rung developers using it.
5. Again, maybe a long time ago I would have cared, but now I just want things to work.
6. Each mobile OS has its own exclusive features designed to make other OS users jealous. Face Unlock is a stupid gimmick, however.

Joey S said,
1. Windows Mobile devices have outdated, underpowered hardware at the same price or higher than more powerful Android devices.
2. Android is open. You can sideload and use custom roms officially.
3. Anybody can develop an app for it without paying anything up front.
4. It uses Java. A well established and supported multi-platform JIT language.
5. You can customise Android to your heart's content.
6. Android has features like NFC Beam, Face Unlock, and Data usage management tools iOS and WP users can only dream of.

The question isn't why aren't people buying WP devices, but why are people buying WP at all. It has none of the benefits of Android, and all the problems of iOS, namely, the closed system mentality, and lack of diversity and innovation.

The first five points are generally useless to the average consumer. Face Unlock? Don't make me laugh. NFC beam and data usage management, fair enough, although again, I don't think the average consumer cares. Tell me again why I need a quadcore and gtx 580 in a phone?

WP7 definitely has it's downfalls, but not the ones you state.

MiukuMac said,
The average smart phone user will look at Windows Phone and laugh their head off at the interface and buy Android or iPhone which have a more familiar and by far sleeker OS.

WP is just atrociously ugly, there's no way around it.

More familiar yes, sleeker no.

Gungel said,
Maybe in a world of geeks, but your points do not apply to the average smart phone user. Just as Kindle said in his post: "A typical non-geek consumer would be absolutely-fraking-crazy to pick an Android phone over a Windows Phone. Windows Phone is vastly more refined, cohesive, and easy to use. Period."

They don't apply? Are you kidding me? Take a device, load an app, benchmark it. Now take the same device, replace it with a dual core processor, benchmark it.. and the customer experience is almost 50% better WHILE still improving battery life.. and that doesn't apply?

GET REAL! you only say that because you can't do anything about your limited device, and you don't use your phone for anything other than texting.. so of COURSE you won't notice the performance difference, but don't make ignorant comments like "it doesn't apply".. it most CERTAINLY does!

Gungel said,
Maybe in a world of geeks, but your points do not apply to the average smart phone user. Just as Kindle said in his post: "A typical non-geek consumer would be absolutely-fraking-crazy to pick an Android phone over a Windows Phone. Windows Phone is vastly more refined, cohesive, and easy to use. Period."

They don't apply? Are you kidding me? Take a device, load an app, benchmark it. Now take the same device, replace it with a dual core processor, benchmark it.. and the customer experience is almost 50% better WHILE still improving battery life.. and that doesn't apply?

GET REAL! you only say that because you can't do anything about your limited device, and you don't use your phone for anything other than texting.. so of COURSE you won't notice the performance difference, but don't make ignorant comments like "it doesn't apply".. it most CERTAINLY does!

Joey S said,
1. Windows Mobile devices have outdated, underpowered hardware at the same price or higher than more powerful Android devices.
2. Android is open. You can sideload and use custom roms officially.
3. Anybody can develop an app for it without paying anything up front.
4. It uses Java. A well established and supported multi-platform JIT language.
5. You can customise Android to your heart's content.
6. Android has features like NFC Beam, Face Unlock, and Data usage management tools iOS and WP users can only dream of.

The question isn't why aren't people buying WP devices, but why are people buying WP at all. It has none of the benefits of Android, and all the problems of iOS, namely, the closed system mentality, and lack of diversity and innovation.

1. It is Windows Phone 7, they do not need double cores o cuad cores to run smooth, android does, and with time it gets slow, laggy and choppy, so tell me how is it better an android that a WP7? also for your knowledge, having faster processors and higher rams consumes more battery, so not everything is advantages.
2.Open? i also used to care, but when you are tired of bugs, low quality apps, and the performance issue, i just dont care, its too annoying and time consuming process.
3.The App market, is for people that sell, or make a living of it, ive seen people unlock the phone to make all those custom programs.
4.Java? are you seriouse? i havent hear of it in a wile, and better, when i used it it was so slow and buggy!
5. Good point, still i prefer the new Non-copied system that runs smooth and slick in every occasion , and the live tiles, are the best!
6.the only valid one i see is the NFC, rest is just to fill the bag

Anthonyd said,
I stopped reading when I saw "Windows Mobile".
JoeyS, trying to troll again on WP news, still not banned yet?

Do you mean the OS that brought MS to control more than 50% of the mobile market? Because in case you do not know it WM did exactly that. WP7 has a long way to Tipperary......

Anthonyd said,
I stopped reading when I saw "Windows Mobile".
JoeyS, trying to troll again on WP news, still not banned yet?

It's just great fun to read his comments. Oh well.

So what?
Being more "open" isn't always a good thing. The Android market is WAY too fragmented and needs a bit of control.

yowan said,
Android is far more 'open' than WP.

Yeah Android is open all right. Open to malware, unauthorized remote access, and hidden tracking systems.

yowan said,
Android is far more 'open' than WP.

I honestly do not understand people that post stuff like this? I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Who Cares? It honestly does not benefit the average user in the slightest. The majority probably don't know about it's "open-ness"... What they do know about though are the apps that they can't install on their device, while others can, the updates that they never get, while some friends may, the performance issues, and if they read the news, the security concerns...

So, outside of the geek audience, what benefit does open-ness have for the average mobile phone consumer?

M_Lyons10 said,

I honestly do not understand people that post stuff like this? I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Who Cares? It honestly does not benefit the average user in the slightest. The majority probably don't know about it's "open-ness"... What they do know about though are the apps that they can't install on their device, while others can, the updates that they never get, while some friends may, the performance issues, and if they read the news, the security concerns...

So, outside of the geek audience, what benefit does open-ness have for the average mobile phone consumer?

The people that develop the phone care. Sure consumers don't, but they do not really make the decisions on what phone comes to market. They are just there to spend money.

Enron said,

Yeah Android is open all right. Open to malware, unauthorized remote access, and hidden tracking systems.

You must've missed the part about the hidden tracking system also being on ios, if you're talking about carrieriq.

Also the end user has a duty of care as to how they use their device. If you install lots of rubbish in the android market with very few reviews then you will install some malware at some point. Use your head and you'll be fine.

M_Lyons10 said,

I honestly do not understand people that post stuff like this? I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Who Cares?

I care?
M_Lyons10 said,

It honestly does not benefit the average user in the slightest.

Openness benefits everyone. Firstly because choice and diversity within an open system is far far higher for manufacturers and users. Hence, why there are so many different kinds of Android devices, from smart phones, to tablets, to TV's.

The Windows desktop OS got where it is today partly through openness and flexibility compared to its main competitor - Apple, which had and still has a closed ecosystem. Android takes this idea further with open source. And once the Linux and Android kernels converge in the future, you'll see a whole host of innovation around Linux and Android.

M_Lyons10 said,

The majority probably don't know about it's "open-ness"...

There is a trickle down effect which you aren't accounting for. The people who do know how to use the "openness" of the platform tell and show others how, or do it for them. Much like how we all install Firefox or Chrome on ours friends and family's computers. The younger generation can do these things themselves. They are very savvy about technology and know how to get the most out of it. So you're argument that ignorance will prevail is complete nonsense.
M_Lyons10 said,

What they do know about though are the apps that they can't install on their device, while others can, the updates that they never get, while some friends may, the performance issues, and if they read the news, the security concerns...

Things evolve. You can't run crysis on a a 10 year old desktop PC, but does that mean we should never buy another PC simply because in the future it won't be able to run every new game? It's a silly argument. Specifications and requirements change. Nothing is static. The same problems exist on every platform. WP device users will eventually experience the same thing once a few generations of hardware have been released.

No platform will get official updates forever. However, that's where Android's openness comes into its own. You can install ICS even on older devices through Cyanogenmod and other custom roms.

As far as performance and security are concerned, it's mostly just FUD.
1. WP uses animated transitions to hide loading delays, Android not so much. It's all slight of hand and very subjective
2. Any open system has the potential to be exploited. Just look at Windows, the biggest malware source in the world, with about 99% of all viruses, malware, rootkits etc.

The difference with mobile OS's like Android is that it has managed marketplaces. Which means it's safe to get apps from the marketplace, but if you side load, then care must be taken of the source. If you get them from reputable sites and pay attention to the ratings and comments, it shouldn't be a problem. And even if that fails, you have the package manager's permission system, which gives you an idea of what the functionality the application is requesting, something that doesn't exist on Windows.

M_Lyons10 said,

So, outside of the geek audience, what benefit does open-ness have for the average mobile phone consumer?

The average mobile phone user gets diversity of hardware, and a large array of marketplaces (application and web based). "Average consumers" as you put it are much smarter than you think. Your whole argument rests on the ignorance of users, and that's a losing battle. People are getting better at using technology, as well as demanding more from their devices. They want to be able to customise it. Windows Phone can't do that as long as it's a closed platform.

M_Lyons10 said,

I honestly do not understand people that post stuff like this? I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Who Cares? It honestly does not benefit the average user in the slightest. The majority probably don't know about it's "open-ness"... What they do know about though are the apps that they can't install on their device, while others can, the updates that they never get, while some friends may, the performance issues, and if they read the news, the security concerns...

So, outside of the geek audience, what benefit does open-ness have for the average mobile phone consumer?

Maybe thee same people that choose indows instead of Apple because the former is not as locked down as the latter?

M_Lyons10 said,

I honestly do not understand people that post stuff like this? I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Who Cares? It honestly does not benefit the average user in the slightest. The majority probably don't know about it's "open-ness"... What they do know about though are the apps that they can't install on their device, while others can, the updates that they never get, while some friends may, the performance issues, and if they read the news, the security concerns...

So, outside of the geek audience, what benefit does open-ness have for the average mobile phone consumer?

So you think the average consumer won't give a sh*t about openness and/or advanced customizability, yet at the same time, will go out and research new versions and find out about updates they don't have? I don't find that likely.

Fritzly said,

Maybe thee same people that choose Windows instead of Apple because the former is not as locked down as the latter?


I doubt that has as much to do with being locked down as it does with it being on a far wider range of devices, most of which are cheaper. Same thing applies to Android vs. iOS and WP7.

azure.sapphire said,

The people that develop the phone care. Sure consumers don't, but they do not really make the decisions on what phone comes to market. They are just there to spend money.

Yes, the people develop the phone care... right up until you buy it. Then the sale is complete, and they can focus on building 20 new models of phone rather than provide updates for the one you just spent a few hundred on.

I'm one of the last people to defend Microsoft, but at least they're reining-in their hardware partners and facilitating timely updates.

roadwarrior said,

I doubt that has as much to do with being locked down as it does with it being on a far wider range of devices, most of which are cheaper. Same thing applies to Android vs. iOS and WP7.

Believe me, In the good old days Windows was not cheap at all, still it climbed to dethrone Apple and became the King of the market. Same story about the hardware: Intel based PCs were not cheap in the late '80s, early '90s

yowan said,
Android is far more 'open' than WP.

Yes, so open that there are a million new phones every year and the manufactures only support their flagship phone for a few months and abandon everything else ASAP.

MS Lose32 said,
So you think the average consumer won't give a sh*t about openness and/or advanced customizability, yet at the same time, will go out and research new versions and find out about updates they don't have? I don't find that likely.

lol, who wants to go out and do countless hours of research to customize a phone? Who even knows they can do that? Do a quick test. Think about ten of your closest family members and do a count of who researches, who knows what you know, and who cares. Odds are that you are the only one.

mrp04 said,

Yes, so open that there are a million new phones every year and the manufactures only support their flagship phone for a few months and abandon everything else ASAP.

Who cares? We've got Custom Roms.

yowan said,

Who cares? We've got Custom Roms.

And maybe 10 percent (if that) of people who own Android phones know how to use them, or want to take the risk of voiding their warranty.

I love WP7 and want it to take off. I was an AT&T customer with a Samsung Focus. It was probably the best phone I had to date. I had to give up AT&T due to signal issues in my area and go to Verizon.

Verizon has ONE WP7 phone and it's not LTE and has been on the market for a while. I'd rather not be locked in a two year contract with an older phone so I had to jump to Android.

Oh by the way the Trophy was nowhere to be found in the front store, but they told me they had one in the back. I think Microsoft needs to push Verizon to better support their phones.

GaMMa said,
I love WP7 and want it to take off. I was an AT&T customer with a Samsung Focus. It was probably the best phone I had to date. I had to give up AT&T due to signal issues in my area and go to Verizon.

Verizon has ONE WP7 phone and it's not LTE and has been on the market for a while. I'd rather not be locked in a two year contract with an older phone so I had to jump to Android.

Oh by the way the Trophy was nowhere to be found in the front store, but they told me they had one in the back. I think Microsoft needs to push Verizon to better support their phones.

Agreed 100%. Verizon is really cutting Microsoft off at the knees... They're not doing their part at all. Microsoft REALLY needs to slap some sense into them. And there is absolutely NO excuse to only have the Trophy at this point.

M_Lyons10 said,

Agreed 100%. Verizon is really cutting Microsoft off at the knees... They're not doing their part at all. Microsoft REALLY needs to slap some sense into them. And there is absolutely NO excuse to only have the Trophy at this point.

After what Microsoft did to Verizon with Kin, could you blame them?

WindowsSlave said,

After what Microsoft did to Verizon with Kin, could you blame them?


?? Verizon is as much to blame as Microsoft, maybe even more…

GaMMa said,
I love WP7 and want it to take off. I was an AT&T customer with a Samsung Focus. It was probably the best phone I had to date. I had to give up AT&T due to signal issues in my area and go to Verizon.

Oh by the way the Trophy was nowhere to be found in the front store, but they told me they had one in the back. I think Microsoft needs to push Verizon to better support their phones.

I had WP7 for a year (Samsung Focus). I liked it. I finally gave up, Droid is WAY better.. WAY better, more responsive and a LOT more custom features.. MS didn't even HAVE hidden Wifi in it's initial release.. what does that tell you? The fact that Verizon didn't have the phone isn't MS fault, the WP7 is LESS than 2% of the market.. marketplace JUST went over 50,000 apps for WP7.. seriously?

how many apps are on iPhone like 2 million.. Google same thing, if Developers, consumers AND technology companies don't invest in a platform, how do you expect it to be a success? ESPECIALLY when MS ALREADY has 90% of the Computer / desktop / Laptop OS market.. That's not a MS problem or Verizon customers KNOW when it comes to mobile phones Windows Mobile is not anything CLOSE to what we need.

rijp said,

I had WP7 for a year (Samsung Focus). I liked it. I finally gave up, Droid is WAY better.. WAY better, more responsive and a LOT more custom features.. MS didn't even HAVE hidden Wifi in it's initial release.. what does that tell you? The fact that Verizon didn't have the phone isn't MS fault, the WP7 is LESS than 2% of the market.. marketplace JUST went over 50,000 apps for WP7.. seriously?

how many apps are on iPhone like 2 million.. Google same thing, if Developers, consumers AND technology companies don't invest in a platform, how do you expect it to be a success? ESPECIALLY when MS ALREADY has 90% of the Computer / desktop / Laptop OS market.. That's not a MS problem or Verizon customers KNOW when it comes to mobile phones Windows Mobile is not anything CLOSE to what we need.

Android is more responsive? LOL! What world do you live in?
The number of apps is stupid. If what you want is on there, that is all that matters.
99% of the apps in all the markets are ****ty apps anyways.

mrp04 said,

Android is more responsive? LOL! What world do you live in?
The number of apps is stupid. If what you want is on there, that is all that matters.
99% of the apps in all the markets are ****ty apps anyways.

Haha yeah how do you find an Android phone more responsive than an Android?

rijp said,

I had WP7 for a year (Samsung Focus). I liked it. I finally gave up, Droid is WAY better.. WAY better, more responsive and a LOT more custom features.. MS didn't even HAVE hidden Wifi in it's initial release.. what does that tell you? The fact that Verizon didn't have the phone isn't MS fault, the WP7 is LESS than 2% of the market.. marketplace JUST went over 50,000 apps for WP7.. seriously?

how many apps are on iPhone like 2 million.. Google same thing, if Developers, consumers AND technology companies don't invest in a platform, how do you expect it to be a success? ESPECIALLY when MS ALREADY has 90% of the Computer / desktop / Laptop OS market.. That's not a MS problem or Verizon customers KNOW when it comes to mobile phones Windows Mobile is not anything CLOSE to what we need.

Yes, because when I buy my phone I look for an OS with millions of apps. I love searching through millions of fart apps. If you could categorize apps to a specific category (tetris into tetris category, etc) that million would be only thousands.

rijp said,

I had WP7 for a year (Samsung Focus). I liked it. I finally gave up, Droid is WAY better.. WAY better, more responsive and a LOT more custom features.. MS didn't even HAVE hidden Wifi in it's initial release.. what does that tell you? The fact that Verizon didn't have the phone isn't MS fault, the WP7 is LESS than 2% of the market.. marketplace JUST went over 50,000 apps for WP7.. seriously?

how many apps are on iPhone like 2 million.. Google same thing, if Developers, consumers AND technology companies don't invest in a platform, how do you expect it to be a success? ESPECIALLY when MS ALREADY has 90% of the Computer / desktop / Laptop OS market.. That's not a MS problem or Verizon customers KNOW when it comes to mobile phones Windows Mobile is not anything CLOSE to what we need.

I have android and I am really not liking it. Not only it is not responsive but it is so very slow, crashes all the time. I have to pull out battery many times just because it hangs so much and it doesn't turn off. sometimes when I receive calls I cannot answer just because it hangs. I installed app killer I called T-Mobile many times. by the time I got this phone it was the android flagship on T-Mobile. at that time there was only HD7 available on T-Mobile which was not a good phone (heavy and low quality of screen)

So why are Android smartphones selling more devices than Windows Phone products? Kindel believes that Google makes things easier for both device makers and wireless carriers with Android. He states, "It enabled device manufactures to do what they do best (build lots of devices). It enabled carriers to do what they do best (market lots of devices). It enabled users tons of choice."

The thing is, this is the source of many problems with the Android platform. Once current contracts are over and people are looking for their next device, WP7 is now an excellent choice with a solid base OS, an expanding app store and great hardware that you know will be supported for a long time.

article said,

"A typical non-geek consumer would be absolutely-fraking-crazy to pick an Android phone over a Windows Phone. Windows Phone is vastly more refined, cohesive, and easy to use. Period.".

Muhammad Farrukh said,

Depends, it can be two different markets. Android is more open, has exponential amounts of potential compared to WP7. I can customize so much in the Android launcher and the third party apps are great compared to WP7 (still gaining traction with developers). I have used both platforms and own devices with both OS's. WP7 is amazing, it is very fluid, end user experience is great. However, it still lacks very basic functionality that I can't acquire even with 3rd party apps. When it does mature, and gain more support from devs., I will be onboard with WP7.

Muhammad Farrukh said,

 In a previous blog post, he states, "A typical non-geek consumer would be absolutely-fraking-crazy to pick an Android phone over a Windows Phone. Windows Phone is vastly more refined, cohesive, and easy to use. Period."

So basically they think of the average end user as completely and utterly stupid and than wonder why their is no real demand for their product? We have enough of this kind of thinking with Apple. I think the majority of people who want that kind of hand holding will move more towards Apple and not be thinking of a Microsoft solution.

Honestly, I still have hope for a Windows phone, but it will not be with the current 7.5 or later builds. They need drastic changes.

what said,

The thing is, this is the source of many problems with the Android platform. Once current contracts are over and people are looking for their next device, WP7 is now an excellent choice with a solid base OS, an expanding app store and great hardware that you know will be supported for a long time.

I had a contract come up and went with another Android Phone over both iOS and WP7(7.5 was out) Th apps support while the WP app store is gaining in numbers really does not mean much to most people. I do agree that WP is very nice but it's not what most people have wanted. It took far to long to come to market it's still lacking to a point and honestly they have not brought anything to the table that's "new" or anything that either iOS or Android can not do and do better.

With all of the talk about "Android Lags" this and that I've dared people that I know to show me the lag they are talking about and hand them my SGS2 even BEFORE I rooted the device (I kept it stock for well over a month which for me is RARE as hell) Not 1 WP user could show me where there was any lag what so ever on my device. Microsoft has a ways to go if they want WP to catch on and while I give them credit WP7 is a far better product then WP 6/6.5 ever was or will be they are still playing catch up with things.

Muhammad Farrukh said,

My 2 year old disagrees.. she can pick up a droid (or iPhone) turn it on, find the app and start it without ANY help from parents.

windows phone (I have 2 droids, a tablet, and Windows) she get's confused and can't figure out how to move to the app list (she can't read so the whole alphabet is lost) and scroll the app she wants, she is visual.

Can you get talking bird, bear, and cat on Windows mobile? Apps aren't as good on WP7 as they are on Droid, PERIOD. More variety WAY more custom options ( I can create a tab JUST for my daughters apps).. can't do that with WP7. These are just SOME of the reasons I dumped WP7 for Droid.

So WP7 is more refined.. HARDLY, not even CLOSE.

rijp said,

My 2 year old disagrees.. she can pick up a droid (or iPhone) turn it on, find the app and start it without ANY help from parents.

windows phone (I have 2 droids, a tablet, and Windows) she get's confused and can't figure out how to move to the app list (she can't read so the whole alphabet is lost) and scroll the app she wants, she is visual.

What a load of crap, my kid who is now 2 1/2 can easily launch all the games and apps from the phone. He's been doing this for over a year now! If it is that important try pinning the games section on the home screen and not burrying in the normal App list.

azure.sapphire said,

So basically they think...

Most phone users are not tech savvy and specially are not going to go out of the bounds of what is on a phone. When you think most are you are thinking of people like you and most here on Neowin. The reality is that most people are not tech savvy.

Nexus69 said,

What a load of crap, my kid who is now 2 1/2 can easily launch all the games and apps from the phone. He's been doing this for over a year now! If it is that important try pinning the games section on the home screen and not burrying in the normal App list.

Agree my friends daughter who is also 2 1/2 can use my WP7 phone just fine even though she is use to her Dads iPod Touch.

flexkeyboard said,
sheesh, neowin is really behind the time for the last several news posts.

there've already been blog posts responding to this one ^_^

I have to agree to a certain point. While I would like to see companies be able to put whatever specs they want into their phone, because it gives us options to pick, but on the other hand it does allow us developers not have to worry about problems, that much.