From The Forums: Our readers debating Windows 8

It's been over two months since Microsoft launched Windows 8 with a massive Times Square event in New York City. Now that Microsoft's latest PC OS has been available commercially, you might think that the debate over Windows 8 would have calmed down a little. Not a chance.

This weekend, the Neowin message boards launched a new thread with the subject line, "Mum vs Windows 8 - attempting a shutdown." The discussion centered on a YouTube video that was posted a couple of days ago that show an older woman that was having issues figuring out how to shut down her Windows 8 PC from the modern user interface.

Neowin member King Mustard stated that he felt this was evidence of a poor design choice for Windows 8, saying:

Yes! It took me ages to figure out how to shut down Windows 8 without using the power button on the system (which, by default, only puts the system to sleep). Ridiculous. Sure it only takes 30 seconds, but only if you've spent AGES trying to find it.

Another Neowin member, Guth, also feels the power button in Windows 8 could have been designed better, saying:

this is the only gripe i have about win8, stupid place for the power option. My mum, sister AND father, all have called me atleast once to ask "how do i shut my fecking pc down!!!!???" and i did show all three how to do it! People forget about the charms bar

Others didn't share his opinion. One is MorganX, who writes in the thread:

Windows 8 has some issues, this isn't one of them. At some point someone told her how to click the start menu and select shutdown. First time she's shutting down on windows 8, just say move mouse to upper left corner, then go down to settings. Wouldn't have had to tell her anything else.

A few days ago, the Windows 8 Mail app came up for discussion in our forums. One Neowin reader, +ultimate99, clearly doesn't care for it, saying, "This app greatly lacks features to be a main/default email client." However, reader Deviate_X, seems to like it, saying, "It simple clean and to the point, if you want more capability then there are many many many alternatives."

Some Neowin readers are debating whether or not to just wait for the next Windows update, which is rumored to be released sometime later this year. One Neowin member, Orange Battery, says:

I haven't found much in 8 that justifies my upgrade, if anything it makes things harder (unless you're on a tablet, it works well with fingers, just not mice). I can't imagine Blue doing much for the ui, ms have made their minds up and its touch all the way. Basically I would say keep 7, if you don't have a tablet then wait for win 9 and hope ms change their direction a bit.

Other readers point out that Microsoft's cheap $39.99 Windows 8 upgrade ends after January 31. One Neowin member, ingramator, says:

Take the plunge while the offer is still available! No one knows anything about the so called "Blue" release so don't let it get in the way of what you want. Windows 8 is a great OS and I strongly advise you upgrade on the fronts of security, stability, performance and many improvements to the UI including the new start screen, task manager and file explorer/copier!

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Real complaint here, All metro applications must be updated on a per user basis and even if you have WSUS deployed it all goes through the wan.

in an enterprise deployment that's a major PITA, I sure hope there's no chance of these outdated applications being a security risk.

Ps metro remote desktop is awesome

I only have two complaints about the OS. 1. I wish there were some options somewhere to disable the hot corners when you are in Desktop. I do not care about the Charms, App Switcher, or the huge Start Screen hot corner display. MS should have released a SIMPLE check box in the Control Panel to disable the hot corners.

2. Yes the shut down situation is one of my complaints. Mostly because I have to keep reminding people that it is not in the Start Screen anymore. I have told them dozens of times, yet they still go to the Start Screen to look for it. They always respond saying "Well at work I go to the Start Menu".

I do not care about the Start Menu or anything else, but thank god for Start8 for allowing me to disable the hot corners and providing a better way to shut down. MS Should have added at least disabling the hot corners as a standard option however.

cool i got a mention! haha

Also id like to add that I do like win8, I think its the best windows to date.
I just agreed with the shut down position. I don't want to be thought of as one of the haters/trolls.

Ok ok, lets face the facts, 8 is more than 7

If you like 8, great, there you go, a new, fresh OS that breaks away from the usual start button or orb you still have desktop if needed, but otherwise you can simply get stuff done via tiles, if you dont like 8, the old warhorse that is 7 isn't quite dead and buried yet, and seeing as how much support was extended for XP, one could assume, MS would offer some sort of support extention for 7, but the inconvenient truth is, 8, unless people refuse to buy MS products, and therefore affect MS in their pocket (believe me they go deep) 8 is going to be the norm
(ok it's beginning to sound like a rant, and not what I intended to post)

Two things come to mind when viewing this...

1. His mum is taught everything she knows about PCs by her son (in which case, he should teach her how to find the start menu).

2. Given #1, he should have taught her how to use the help system of the OS/Apps. First search result of 27 in "Help and Support" for "shutdown" is an entire video showing how to shutdown Windows 8. Yeah, a video.. Plus non-video based instructions on how to shutdown or change sleep settings.

This is an example of how a computer "user" can't do the most basic of searches to continue learning how to use a computer and shows exactly how some computer "users" think they are computer experts but resist the most subtle of changes because they never learned to learn new things. Every day I sit down at a Mac with the "login" menu option on one side of the screen and the "logout" option on the other end of the menu bar I wonder what they were thinking. And sure enough, there is the shutdown option by the "logout" option. I don't use one everyday and was more of a Classic Mac OS fan then X.. But I figure if I was brand new the help feature of Mac OS would be pretty good if I needed it.

At the end of the day, this person's mum was easily able to find google.com (in Chrome, which I am sure was not installed by her but for her).. Use Google to do a basic search for how to shutdown Windows 8 if you couldn't find "Help and Support" in Windows. Pretty sure a page on Microsoft.com or several other sites would have come up in the results.

In fact, lmgtfy with just results from Microsoft.com:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+sh...dows+8+site%3Amicrosoft.com

my 2 cents...

The under-the-bonnet technology from the systems programmers is excellent.
The usability from the UI designers is extremely disappointing. They don't seem to know the meaning of the term "discoverability". What a waste of some great technology.

Example of the UI designer attitude (see http://www.neowin.net/news/sor...bring-back-the-start-button):

mdcdesign said,
I've heard every single excuse under the sun with regards to Metro whining; ... Even after you sit down with them and point out just how retarded they're being, they still don't get it.
Personally I blame the entire fiasco on what I call the "Mouse Generation"; people who learnt to use computers with Windows XP, and seem to have been taught by their schools/parents that the keyboard is just for typing words in. ...
The fact is, when I designed Metro, I aimed it primarily at keyboard users; the touch support came out as a happy side-effect of the chromeless approach. Less chrome meant more space for content, which meant that content could be spread out across the entire screen, which meant larger surfaces for interaction. ...
Personally I've always found mouse interaction slow and cumbersome; unfortunately, being a graphic designer who can't draw by hand for ****, a mouse is a necessary evil in my line of work.

In short, if you have been brought up on the WIMP model and use your mouse accordingly, this new generation of UI designers couldn't care less.
You like mouse interaction and don't feel the need to learn a slew of keyboard shortcuts - too bad, the UI design people think you're a retard and see no need to take your working methods into account.
You want ease of use - forget it, discoverability isn't what WIndows does any more.
With this attitude to the installed customer base, how can it be surprising that Win8 is gathering so much negative publicity.

I think it's such a shame, a kick in the teeth for the system programmers and for a very large percentage of existing Windows users.
I've installed Win8 on my laptop (with Start8, of course), and I'm really impressed with the technology. To that extent I like it. But I have no interest in "Modern" - there is nothing at all "modern" about fullscreen apps and keyboard operation, all that predates the WIMP model.
MS badly needs some UI designers who understand and empathise with their own customer base.

Edited by gb8080, Jan 14 2013, 11:46pm :

Really? If someone can't find the power button on their PC with both hands, they should not be allowed to use electronics. (Seriously, every computer has a physical POWER button, does it really need to be a big option on the screen too?)


The sick part is if you type Turn Off, a full 'assisted' settings options appears for "Turn Off your PC"

By default the physical button may do something else, such as putting your computer to sleep.

If you are telling people what they should or shouldn't be allowed to do, I am telling you that you shouldn't be allowed to give advice.

The only issues with win8 are:
Music app is subpar to Zune, but getting better
Video app doesn't have tv shows next day like amazon,vudu

lack of a start button is a bull**** weak excuse to not upgrade because 8 is faster than 7 and you could stay in desktop mode and never go into the modern ui. Also, you could upgrade later to a touch screen monitor so the hardware path is simple should you choose it.
I can entertain comments like I don't like the modern ui and its different and takes getting used to and mouse and keyboard can be difficult at times. None of those I agree with but I understand them. The start button complaint is idiotic and lame and those geeks that cry about this should be ashamed.

Sorry, but if you think everything in life should be handed to you on a silver platter... you're an a**hole.

Got a new OS ? RTFM or STFU.

Would it be easier to guess how to shutdown OSX ? Lazy people are dumb.

I don't like Windows 8 at all for the desktop. I do like it for a tablet but since the Windows tablets are not mainstream, I will keep my iPad Mini and Nexus 7. I am perfectly happy with Windows 7 for the desktop. I did buy Windows 8 (boxed version from Amazon) for $39.99. It is still sitting on my bookshelf sealed. I only bought it because the price was good and I am hoping Microsoft adds more functionality to desktop users down the line. I know that may never happen, but if they do, at least I got it at a good price.

I love Win 8 Pro 64bit. I did not do a clean install. I installed over Win7 Pro 64bit. On my Win8 there is a 120x120 pixel tile that says Desktop. I single click it and I am at tan identical desktop that I had with Win7 with the exception of the Start Button. It seems faster than Win 7 but that could be perception. I do get about 30 better fps in Black Ops II and Crysis 2 than I did with Win7. Took me about 10 minutes to "get familiar with it" as far as usability. I am one that likes to learn new things and tinker and figure out stuff works so this is right up my alley.

Many of the issues with Windows 8 are usability issues.

Almost every example I've seen, is of someone complaining about the charm bar, and a lack of understanding of how to get to it, to perform a task (shutdown for example). My opinion of these issues, is that they could be completely resolved by doing one simple thing. When the start menu is displayed, the charm bar would also briefly be visible, and if there's no mouse activity over it (charm bar) it would fade away. Problem solved.

Windows 8 Is Far better than Windows 7... Hell I've even gone off running Linux 24/7 and using Windows 8 as my Main OS.. that Fine.. People need to get use to the Start screen once you've used Winkey and type to search etc. its just Fast and Runs all my Games Better and its more Reliable.

windows 8 its a mess, a USABILITY one, too much hassles, gestures and weird stuff just to do basic things.

Accessing networking adapter since vista its more clicks and looking here and there, even power users waste time looking for something that should be easily accessible. They impoved the wifi options in windows 7, but in the end windows 8 its harder to use its not customizable and everything must be run on fullscreen which its not productive

eilegz said,
windows 8 its a mess, a USABILITY one, too much hassles, gestures and weird stuff just to do basic things.

Accessing networking adapter since vista its more clicks and looking here and there, even power users waste time looking for something that should be easily accessible. They impoved the wifi options in windows 7, but in the end windows 8 its harder to use its not customizable and everything must be run on fullscreen which its not productive

Here is a tip for most everything you haven't figured out...

Lower left corner, Right Click (instead of left click)

Power, Mobility, etc - everything you are complaining about is there and faster to access than in Windows 7.

Just because you didn't notice this, you cannot honestly argue that it is harder to do in Windows 8 than Windows 7. Just smack your forehead and move on.

I purchase 2 copies of Windows 8, one for a desktop and the other for my laptop. I can't say I like or dislike it. I was so use to doing things a certain way in Windows 7, that I actually moved the laptop back to Windows 7. I realized I used the "start button" more than I thought I did once it was gone.

Windows 8 for me offered no significant benefit over Windows 7. The only thing for me that Windows 8 brings is IE10 which right now breaks many sites I frequent.

But this weekend, I move that laptop back to Windows 8. One thing I am disappoint about is MS taking away being able to same an image of the drive in case you need to restore it. So now I have to manually do it using something else.

I personally dont like MS moving things around or removing features because they think no one needs them. Even if the vast majority of people stopped using the start button, I didnt. Just removing features so the new OS doesnt look to much like the first is lame.

Remember Microsoft, Bosch and Lomb were sued for basically taking the same contacts and placing them in a fancier box and selling it for more money. Een tho you are charging less for 8 vs 7 for now, they are pretty much the same other than the touch layer.

I miss Aero and with today's GPU being so powerful, I saw no need to remove it.
I am sure 8 will get better. Many thing many devs will start to repurpose apps to fit the touch config. I person feel they wont. I dont see any touch centric versions of apps coming anytime soon. I mean look at MS. They need Windows 8 was coming, they been working on it for quite some time and even Office 2013 isnt very touch centric at all.

Microsoft maybe could have spent more time on it.

TechieXP said,
I But this weekend, I move that laptop back to Windows 8. One thing I am disappoint about is MS taking away being able to same an image of the drive in case you need to restore it. So now I have to manually do it using something else.

Search for Windows 7 File Recovery (in 8.) Exact same backup tool as before to do that.

Brando212 said,
yep, Aero is still very much there, just no more fake glass effect (except in the taskbar)

Aero has pretty much become a benchmark to gauge a person's actual expertise with Windows.

If someone says Aero was removed from Windows 8, they're essentially declaring they have zero credibility with regards to Windows.

No not file recovery. Windows 7 has the ability to do a complete system image file. So for example. Lets say I make an image file. If my drive dies, I simply put in a new drive and restore the most recent image I created and I am 100% where I left off. What Windows 8 has does not do this.

Brando212 said,
yep, Aero is still very much there, just no more fake glass effect (except in the taskbar)
Exactly...the Glass-like effects that first came out in Vista and was left in Windows 7 is now gone for this bland look.

I am not saying Aero is important. What I am saying is it has a nice look an appeal that made the UI look nicer than it was in XP and now in 8. Seems like a step backwards.

Just think about the Windows UI's starting with Windows 95 and you will understand why.

Joshie said,

Aero has pretty much become a benchmark to gauge a person's actual expertise with Windows.

If someone says Aero was removed from Windows 8, they're essentially declaring they have zero credibility with regards to Windows.

You are entitled to your opinon. I am sure I have been using Windows longer than you and I have use every single version including the Server versions which I am sure you havent.

The Aero you see in Windows 8 is NOTHING like it was in Vista or Windows 7. You claiming otherwise shows YOU have zeo credibility. I am not taking about some of the useless Aero effects like 3D Flip. I know 3D Flip is still there. I am taking sole on appearance. The taskbar is only slightly opaque. In Vista and Windows 7 you can make the taskbar totally invisible without making it disappear.

Also the title bards are no longer transluscent at all...which again is something very nice I liked about Windows Aero.

Based on how i see it, Windows AERO is gone as the effects that dont require any button presses like 3D Flip does is gone.

TechieXP said,
No not file recovery. Windows 7 has the ability to do a complete system image file. So for example. Lets say I make an image file. If my drive dies, I simply put in a new drive and restore the most recent image I created and I am 100% where I left off. What Windows 8 has does not do this.
did you even go into the Windows 7 File Recovery? because what you explained is exactly what it does. I'm looking in it right now on on the left there's a link that says "Create a system Image"

TechieXP said,
Exactly...the Glass-like effects that first came out in Vista and was left in Windows 7 is now gone for this bland look.

I am not saying Aero is important. What I am saying is it has a nice look an appeal that made the UI look nicer than it was in XP and now in 8. Seems like a step backwards.

Just think about the Windows UI's starting with Windows 95 and you will understand why.

I'll agree that the theme in Windows 8 is a step backwards but you have to remember they had a nice refined glass theme all through till the RC then decided to throw it out last minute and threw the current theme together

wasn't the best decision IMO, if they were gonna do that they should have done it a lot sooner so we could have at least had a better looking theme than we got

Studio384 said,
What's the problem? Aero is still there, just like on Windows 7.
No...it is not just like what is in Windows 7. Since the suspects here like to play on words...Windows Aero Glass which was introduced with Windows Vista and was also left in Windows 7 is now GONE.

http://www.freemake.com/blog/w...features-that-will-be-gone/

This list of all the nice features some people like from Vista/7 that are GONE in Windows 8. What is left is a bland flat lifeless UI and isnt very appealing. Which is why the other posters need a life. AERO is gone....what is left shouldnt even be dubbed AERO.

TechieXP said,
This list of all the nice features some people like from Vista/7 that are GONE in Windows 8.

We already disproved its backup removed bit, I'm not bored enough to go point by point.

TechieXP said,
No...it is not just like what is in Windows 7. Since the suspects here like to play on words...Windows Aero Glass which was introduced with Windows Vista and was also left in Windows 7 is now GONE.

http://www.freemake.com/blog/w...features-that-will-be-gone/

This list of all the nice features some people like from Vista/7 that are GONE in Windows 8. What is left is a bland flat lifeless UI and isnt very appealing. Which is why the other posters need a life. AERO is gone....what is left shouldnt even be dubbed AERO.

blame Microsoft, since vista they called the theme aero and constantly referred to the WDDM as aero (the WDDM is technically what aero is, not the theme, MS should have never called the theme aero)

WDDM is aero, it's the features such as aero peek and aero snap and everything on the desktop being gpu rendered

TechieXP said,
No...it is not just like what is in Windows 7. Since the suspects here like to play on words...Windows Aero Glass which was introduced with Windows Vista and was also left in Windows 7 is now GONE.

http://www.freemake.com/blog/w...features-that-will-be-gone/

This list of all the nice features some people like from Vista/7 that are GONE in Windows 8. What is left is a bland flat lifeless UI and isnt very appealing. Which is why the other posters need a life. AERO is gone....what is left shouldnt even be dubbed AERO.

Well in the 'strict' sense, Aero disappeared moving from Vista to Windows 7 as well.

The DWM window 'UI' drawing changed in both versions, the Win8 version removed all transparency on the Window borders.

However what users reference to as 'Aero' or the DWM/Composer is still there, even if it is not applying the glass effects. In fact it is MORE THERE in Windows 8 than Vista or Win7, as it is enabled full time and doesn't even need DX9 level GPUs to work.

TechieXP said,
Exactly...the Glass-like effects that first came out in Vista and was left in Windows 7 is now gone for this bland look.

I am not saying Aero is important. What I am saying is it has a nice look an appeal that made the UI look nicer than it was in XP and now in 8. Seems like a step backwards.

Just think about the Windows UI's starting with Windows 95 and you will understand why.

The need to become more gaudy or garish is not progress. Adding in faux 3D highlights and shadows was 'cute' and 'cool' when they were first introduced. They were never more usable, nor made reading or UI easier.

thenetavenger said,

The need to become more gaudy or garish is not progress. Adding in faux 3D highlights and shadows was 'cute' and 'cool' when they were first introduced. They were never more usable, nor made reading or UI easier.


Opinions about effects are always subjective. From the beginning, I've thought the squeeze-closed/unsqueeze-open effect from the dock on OS X is horrible, horrible design and the sort of crap you'd expect from a third-party add-on in the 16-bit days. It's slightly less pretty than a toilet flush animation.

Does that opinion get me anywhere? No. Well, it got me to better understand my own sense of style, but that's it. Calling it crap is, like 99% of internet opinions, useless except to get upvotes from people who already agreed with me and downvotes from people whose minds won't be changed.

There are people who think Windows 8's flatness is identical to Windows 3.x and Metro is identical to a 20-year-old AOL screenshot. By my own opinion, their eyesight is as damaged as every idiot that looked at Windows 95 and said the taskbar looked just like Mac OS's menu bar. Am I right? Probably. But it's still my own, subjective design sense.

This news story seems like its trying to give a second chance to those Microsoft zealots who lost their debates in the original "mum" thread.
Seriously people get over it, 8 has failed, it has already bombed worse than vista, consumers are avoiding it like the plague, I work in management at a large retailer and I see it every day.

I think it comes down to the fact that Windows 8 isn't universally good or bad. Vista was pretty universally hated and 7 was mainly universally loved. 8 is neither perfect nor terrible. It really comes down to if you are going to pick out the annoyances or just gloss over any flaws to embrace the advancement of the OS. I can point out a ton of annoyances that really hurt the experience for me, but on the flip side, I can also point out a bunch of improvements.

Windows needed to change and 8 is the first baby step in the right direction. As with any first step, its a bit shaky at first, but with some practice and refinement, it gets better and better.

there we go again we these guys that fail to RTFM. if you did you would know that right clicking the bottom left corner of the screen give you a nice menu that lets you access the control panel,command prompt,task manager,search, run, disk management,computer management,etc...

Salty Wagyu said,
When I had to create a shortcut on the desktop to access the Control Panel I didn't look back.

or from the desktop you could have hit Win+X and then selected control panel

Its simple. people who have iphones and android have been bashing windows phone since release,because well, they felt uneasy that this new,great looking phone OS is out,and their investment in their platform could be all a waste.

So Windows 8 gets released,and it looks familiar to Windows Phone. But because these guys have already picked their horse in the race,and their pride is at stake, how could they complement Windows 8? It would go against everything they said about windows phone. Its like admiting defeat.

In fact, these same bashers are the first ones to install windows 8. The bashing is just a front, a ruse. They secretly use it,and love it.

I have proof of this. Go to any windows related site, like MDL and check out all the bashing that went on, yet these guys were about to kill someone for the RTM release,and subsequent cracks/activators. They are digging hard to try to crack metro apps. Go look at the torrents.

I have used Windows 8 Pro since October and I rarely use any apps. There are some very good ones but if I can access everything through the browser I don't feel the need to use the apps. I love having a start menu though. It saves time having to search for things in Windows 7 and it means I don't have to have twenty million things on by task bar. Not having a start button really doesn't change much for me.

The only downside in Windows 8 is the segregated searching. I would love for the default search to combine everything in a label called "all". Then users can select "file" or "settings" etc if they want to filter a search. The shortcuts can still remain to do these operations more quickly to. That is the only thing I miss from Windows 7.

djpailo said,
The only downside in Windows 8 is the segregated searching. I would love for the default search to combine everything in a label called "all". Then users can select "file" or "settings" etc if they want to filter a search.

My only issue as well. maybe Blue will resolve this.

djpailo said,
I have used Windows 8 Pro since October and I rarely use any apps. There are some very good ones but if I can access everything through the browser I don't feel the need to use the apps. I love having a start menu though. It saves time having to search for things in Windows 7 and it means I don't have to have twenty million things on by task bar. Not having a start button really doesn't change much for me.

The only downside in Windows 8 is the segregated searching. I would love for the default search to combine everything in a label called "all". Then users can select "file" or "settings" etc if they want to filter a search. The shortcuts can still remain to do these operations more quickly to. That is the only thing I miss from Windows 7.

An argument could be made for Apps/Settings/Files to be included in one result. However, Microsoft is also trying to get users in the mindset of the 'flipping' of searching from one location. So typing in a movie title and clicking on Bing, Video, Wikipedia, Netflix, etc will give the user instant searches inside the Apps. (This is the evolution of online services exposing their searches as Federated Search should have done years ago.)

Here's a question to those running Windows 8; I have a buddy with an old Vista OEM installation (not upgraded to Windows 7 yet). Does he have to be in Windows Vista when purchasing the upgrade to Windows 8, or does it just require "either/or" of XP, Vista, Windows 7?

darkthunder said,
Here's a question to those running Windows 8; I have a buddy with an old Vista OEM installation (not upgraded to Windows 7 yet). Does he have to be in Windows Vista when purchasing the upgrade to Windows 8, or does it just require "either/or" of XP, Vista, Windows 7?
it doesn't matter, he could run the upgrade adviser program on someone elses computer, burn the disk, and it would still install on his computer just fine as long as the installer detects a version of windows on that computer

You can't install from the upgrade adviser to a blank HDD. You would need to install Windows Vista then do the upgrade. You will be asked during the installation process if you want to upgrade or perform a clean install. I did the clean install on my Windows 7 OS upgrade.

If you Google though I seem to remember people talking about a simple change to allow you to install on a blank HDD.

darkthunder said,
So the upgrade requires a pre-existing installation? Can't do a clean install?
no, you can do a clean install as long as you boot from the upgrade disk that gets burned and format the hard drive from within the installer

darkthunder said,
When does he enter his Vista key? Before or after payment for the upgrade to 8?
no need to enter vista key anyway as far as I'm aware

Does it not require an existing install to be running when using the Windows Upgrade Assistant? Would it generate a unique key each time? I've got a few licenses that I wanted to convert (XP, Vista and 7) so that I can put them away for some projects later on in the year.

Pygmy_Hippo said,
Does it not require an existing install to be running when using the Windows Upgrade Assistant? Would it generate a unique key each time? I've got a few licenses that I wanted to convert (XP, Vista and 7) so that I can put them away for some projects later on in the year.
all the upgrade assistant cares about is if a version of windows is there, it doesn't care if it's activated or not, all it checks for is if it's there

Brando212 said,
all the upgrade assistant cares about is if a version of windows is there, it doesn't care if it's activated or not, all it checks for is if it's there

Cool, cheers for that

ObiWanToby said,
I think people continue to forget the back-end improvements, or just don't care. Windows 8 is more than Metro ...

What good are the backend improvements if I can't use them due to the s***** GUI?

In reality, other than the Start menu being gone/Start Screen in place, how different IS the UI from that of Windows 7? Very very little. It's just that that one difference (no Start menu and present but backgrounded Start Screen) is very inna-your-face, which some folks can't get past for any amount of cajoling or instruction. The Superbar is still present. Taskbar pinning is still present (I pointed out earlier that Firefox and Chrome now pin themselves there by default on either installation or upgrade). In fact, a lot of how I navigate in Windows 8 carries back to previous versions of Windows with few or no changes. It's getting past learned behavior that's hard.

The UI is how humans interface with the backend. So if the UI turns them off ... Plus, for the first time maybe in Windows' history, there was a major new release and no one was really asking for it. Windows 7 was/is real good. The problem is the improvements are minor compared to the significant changes that are unavoidable, and some things just aren't good (yet?).

If a few killer Modern UI apps pop up, people will change there tune. Or if a few games can find some way to take advantage of Windows 8, that'll do it too. Those things just aren't here yet and devs are still learning Modern UI.

MorganX said,
Plus, for the first time maybe in Windows' history, there was a major new release and no one was really asking for it

Besides your personal 'beliefs' about the UI turning off 'more users', when there is empirical evidence to show the opposite, let us look at your statement above.

People made these same comments about the changes not being asked for with Windows 3.1, WIndows 95, Windows 98, Windows XP, Windows Vista.

Every version there are things people hate, especially when they don't understand them or get stuck in a way of thinking instead of evolving. Ironically it is the more 'tech savvy' users that get caught in this loop.

Win95, users were using Program Manager and FileManager from Win3.x and even setting them as the default shell turning off File Explorer. It was insane then and is just as insane today with Windows 8. In 10 years, if you tell people that the Win8 UI was horrible and how you went back to a Win7 shell, they will laugh at you for being stupid.

Brando212 said,
no, they just don't listen or care because "OMG they took away me start menu D:"

Haha, the first thing I thought of when you said that was South Park's "They took our joobs!" Funnily enough, that is almost the same situation as the whinging that usually goes on about the Start screen.

"Damnit They took yur start booten!"

@thenetavenger You should shelve your zealotry and read more carefully. I responded to the OP who iterated the backend improvements and that Windows 8 is more than metro. I replied that the UI is how we interact and "if" it turns people of ....

But since you mention it, I believe it is a fact that just about everyone down on Windows 8 is turned off by the UI since that is the nature of most of the complaints. The overused analogies to past upgrades are irrelevant IMO and not comparable anyway.

Zealots on both sides are irritating, like an a$$ itch.

Here we go again. It's the new tech. You need to learn it first time before you know how to use it. I bet if he gave her some other new gadgets, she wouldn't know how to use them either. Does it mean they are bad tech? ...

When I bought the Surface for my wife, I sat her down and walked through all the basic functions of Win8. Now she is flying thru all, and never complain about any bad things about Win8. Instead she loves it.

The biggest complaint of Windows 8 is really that there should've been something like you for everyone who doesn't know how to operate the OS.

Every radical change to the UI in the past has been accompanied by more than a simple "move mouse to corner for awesome" picture. You provided that which was missing for everyone who complains that stuff is hard/different.

People are willing to learn, but not willing to feel stupid by default. Some find it on their own and feel great about it. Some are indifferent. Others are insulted. You filled in the gaps where Microsoft failed.

When you first make an account on Windows 8 it explains how to swipe from the sides or move the mouse to the corners.

mrp04 said,
When you first make an account on Windows 8 it explains how to swipe from the sides or move the mouse to the corners.

To be fair, that's really not enough.

Complaining about how to shut down Windows 8 is similar to complaining about how to turn off the light inside your refrigerator: you just don't, it will shut down/go to sleep more by itself. Forget about it, move forward.

Some people actually are concerned about power consumption. While Windows may manage it by itself, it's a reasonable request to want to really cut power to a device, and not have it in a low-power state (sleep).

mram said,
Some people actually are concerned about power consumption. While Windows may manage it by itself, it's a reasonable request to want to really cut power to a device, and not have it in a low-power state (sleep).

Which is why the shutdown option is still there, right next to sleep. And why the power button on your computer can be configured to put it to sleep, hibernate, shutdown, or do nothing.

mram said,
Some people actually are concerned about power consumption. While Windows may manage it by itself, it's a reasonable request to want to really cut power to a device, and not have it in a low-power state (sleep).
Yeah, I rarely turned off my laptop from Windows. I usually just either close the lid or press the power button..

It's nothing that can't be remedied with Start8. Just sucks we have to go back to the XP methods of needing to tweak the default UI to make it comfortable. (Just my opinion though).

Just Install Start8 and get over it. I love start menu too and also I love to have newest version of windows so I paid 4 bucks and got Start8. Now I am happy.

yeah I can't understand why people are complaining and freaking out when this is mentioned saying "OMFG i shouldn't have to install a 3rd party hack blah blah blah" when in the past they've had no issue installing 3rd party apps to get functionality they want (objectdock, rocketdock, rainmeter. just to name a few)
plus start menu replacers are far from new as well anyway

Exactly - I pointed out that they, in fact, go all the way back to the launch of Windows 95 itself. Not even the Start menu has been universally loved; the love/hate relationship is actually no different from that with Finder (OS X).

S3P€hR said,
Just Install Start8 and get over it. I love start menu too and also I love to have newest version of windows so I paid 4 bucks and got Start8. Now I am happy.
Or you could of saved your money and just take 10 minutes to learn how to use the Start Screen. It's better at doing important things that the Start Menu was able to do, but not as good as the Start Screen.

FalseAgent said,
Windows 8, bad or not, I think we all can agree that PCs have never been this exciting since.....I can't remember when.

Since we got the mouse. Then we were excited by two buttons, over Apple's 1.
Now we have 9+ on enthusiast mice.

I use Win 8 at home. I don't mind the tiles but they don't offer anything new. If anything it takes longer to do a task.

Example, opening "Documents" now requires clicking Desktop then Library then Documents. Before it was Library and then Documents or Start > Documents.

I know this is minor but this is pretty much everywhere in the OS. Other than the cheap launch price there was no reason to upgrade really. I've actually started trying Ubuntu again but Linux still seems to be the same old Linux in the past. If something doesn't work you end up using terminal to fix it. Linux is starting to look like a decent OS though, Ubuntu especially.

ModernMech said,
Except now you can pin any folder to your start screen. If this is really an issue for you, just pin your documents folder.
The easiest way is to pin your folder to the taskbar so it will appear when you right click on explorer icon...same method used in Windows 7...

Pretty much - the only methods missing from Windows 8 are ones involving the Start menu. Because I had started migrating AWAY from the Start menu with Windows 7 (thanks to things like the Superbar and Taskbar pinning - both of which Windows 8 retains), my learning curve with Windows 8 was, in fact, quite miniscule. What I am finding are that more and more APPLICATIONS are figuring out how to deal with Windows 8 (desktop applications, that is) - the latest versions of Firefox and Chrome, for example *pin themselves to the Taskbar by default* on install or upgrade. (Gee - this has been available since Windows XP, if not Windows 2000, and you're just incorporating it now?)

SK[ said]I don't mind the tiles but they don't offer anything new. If anything it takes longer to do a task.
I'm just gonna' stop you right there... The tiles do provide new things in Windows. 1 - Live tiles that update all the time, 2 - most tiles are resizable so that makes it easier to group all your favorite apps.

Example, opening "Documents" now requires clicking Desktop then Library then Documents. Before it was Library and then Documents or Start > Documents.
You can pin any folder you want to the Start Screen for easier access.

http://www.itworld.com/windows...lder-start-screen-windows-8

SK said
I use Win 8 at home. I don't mind the tiles but they don't offer anything new. If anything it takes longer to do a task.
I'm just gonna' stop you right there... The tiles do provide new things in Windows. 1 - Live tiles that update all the time, 2 - most tiles are resizable so that makes it easier to group all your favorite apps.

Example, opening "Documents" now requires clicking Desktop then Library then Documents. Before it was Library and then Documents or Start > Documents.

You can pin any folder you want to the Start Screen for easier access.

http://www.itworld.com/windows...lder-start-screen-windows-8

Dushmany said,
Really?
Name 500.!

Great way of being totally unrealistic with a comment that was exaggerated to prove a point in the first place. Here are a few anyway:

Faster boot-up times. Improved efficiency (in terms of CPU usage). Increased security with Defender built in. Many bug fixes. Better task manager. New copy/paste features. Built in ISO mounting (no need to install extra software). Start page is much better to use in terms of finding what I want (especially the mail app). Great integration across platforms with Microsoft Account.

@ffMathy I never said 7 was better, and therefore, do not have to

@Drazgoosh, I am aware of the bootups and the other tweaks, win8 brings to the table, tho my copy of 7 ultimate also came with defender as standard, I just preferred zonealarm, I don't have a problem with what anybody who lives within the boundaries of the law or what they spend their hard earned money on, I just dont like 8

Dushmany said,
my copy of 7 ultimate also came with defender as standard, I just preferred zonealarm

Defender in 7 is not an antivirus solution. Defender in 8 is.

This is truly Pathetic, you argue in the video that there is a change in the OS well daaaa
Windows 8 interface is different, so what??? what is the point, that windows 8 is worse?? dumb ass.
not only that, you gave the OS to someone old, old people always react bad to change.

Liron Hazan said
old people always react bad to change.
This is semi-true. My parents for example had both positive and negative reactions to 98/ME/XP/Vista and 7.

The point is, you can't please everyone.

Crisp said,
I love Windows 8...

Bazinga!!

And I love my Windows 7.

While Windows 8 has newer features, I don't think there is a sense of urgency to upgrade to it. Windows 7 gets the job done and I'm happy with it.

Crisp said,
I love my Windows 7 too, I have no desire to upgrade.
Well if you don't care about security, stability and performance then sure, why upgrade. /s

WV2MJR said,

And I love my Windows 7.

While Windows 8 has newer features, I don't think there is a sense of urgency to upgrade to it. Windows 7 gets the job done and I'm happy with it.

Said the people on windows XP

to sum it up, some like it, some don't
feel free to close this thread, I'll be available to accept my Oscar on friday
(said for comic effect)

Really? It's all the same arguments over and over again. The ones who don't like it aren't going to change their mind if they read some stuff (only maybe if they actually try using it) and the ones who already like it are sick of these debates.

Please, cut the stupid stereotypes. I for one am more than capable of learning it I just refuse to do so because I don't like it. Stop acting as if you have some inane right to tell people whether or not their usability concerns are your business because they are not.

And there are a LOT of folks out there like you, Javik - they didn't get what they wanted, therefore, they refuse to move. It's not unique to Windows 8 (or even to Windows) - haven't we ALL seen this with (name of application/game/Linux distribution/OS X version here)?

Javik said,
Please, cut the stupid stereotypes. I for one am more than capable of learning it I just refuse to do so because I don't like it. Stop acting as if you have some inane right to tell people whether or not their usability concerns are your business because they are not.

It takes a couple minutes to learn the small changes in the UI. Seriously, the charms bar has 5 buttons and the start menu is now full screen. How is this so hard?

Like I said, if people actually tried to use it, they would get used to it in a few minutes. And also like I said, you reading this won't change your mind. Only if people are forced to use it for whatever reason.

There is actually only one big problem with Windows 8: lack of choice.

When you boot, do you want to go to the desktop or the tile interface ? Give me the choice.

Do you want the start button or not ? Give me the choice.

I don't ask for much. (Special thanks to Stardock).

Javik said,
Please, cut the stupid stereotypes. I for one am more than capable of learning it I just refuse to do so because I don't like it. Stop acting as if you have some inane right to tell people whether or not their usability concerns are your business because they are not.

yet it doesn't stop the ones like you refusing to learn from complaining in the forums. Lets find a fix for that.

Personally I can't stand the OS. I am skipping it-- much reminiscent of the time I skipped Vista.
"Windows 8- where usability gets thrown out the Window."

mrp04 said,
Really? It's all the same arguments over and over again. The ones who don't like it aren't going to change their mind if they read some stuff (only maybe if they actually try using it) and the ones who already like it are sick of these debates.

Yep. But to that end, if an OS is met with so much ambivalence and so much division, something's got to be wrong. Even those who like it can admit that.