From the Forums: Windows 8 - Unintuitive at its best

It's Friday, and time for another From the Forums feature. Today we take a look at a typical users' frustrations for Windows 8. This user has also used previous Windows versions, so not completely oblivious to it, we also already know some of you will be answering with "but you can use these keyboard shortcuts for this or that." but..

People, it just doesn't cut it.

So I've been using Windows 8 RTM for about two weeks now, same with my parents. Both they and I agree that Windows 8 is unintuitive and a step backwards. My parents are your "average" user, what Windows 8 is aimed at. I'm a power user. Let me say that I wanted to like Windows 8. I'm a MS fan. But if I'm being honest, Windows 8 feels unpolished and unintuitive and a pain to use.

Why Microsoft, WHY!?

Printing Files
Open a PDF in Reader and try to print it, I dare you. So you first think "Hmm that might be under that random right click menu bottom bar thing... under 'More'?" Nope, it's not under more. Try moving your mouse to the top right and then slide down, is it under "Share"? Nope. It's under "Devices". You would naturally think Devices means things like your Phone, iPod, etc. A printer certainly doesn't pop up into my head. But there it is, click on your printer and you can print.

In Windows 7, you would simply click the print button. One single click. In Windows 8, you slide to the upper right and then down (1 action), click on devices, and then click print... 3 actions.

No Clock
Seriously, even WP7 has a clock and the screen is only 4.8" inches... With Windows 8, you have to bring up the charms bar just to see what time it is. My mom hates that.

Searching in email is a pain
You have to bring up the charms bar and then click the search button... why not simply have a search text box??

Can't flip between photos, must open them one by one
Normally in your file explorer, you can open a picture from a folder and then quicky hit the next button to see the following photos. In Windows 8, you're required to open one picture, view it, hit alt+tab, double click another picture, view it, hit alt+tab, double click another... fail.

Can't flip between attached photos in email
Once again, the photo viewer doesn't let you view things as a whole set. Your friend emails you 5 cool pictures? Have fun alt+tabbing and clicking twice to view each individual one.

Switching tabs in IE Metro
It's absolutely painful. You have to right click to bring up the tabs... but you have to right click on something that isn't a link or an image.

Bringing up the bottom and top options bar in apps
Just like in IE Metro, you have to right click somewhere. That means you have to find an empty spot on the screen to right click.. seriously? It just becomes annoying after a while.

No "Save As" option in IE Metro
Everything is stuck in your Downloads folder no matter what. Forces you to switch to normal IE just to save things in a folder!

Reader crashes and doesn't save
I've had Reader crash on me 5 times already while I was writing down some notes on the PDF slides and navigated away from it, to return and find it crashed. Sure these apps can be updated later on, but seriously this gives a terrible impression of Windows 8 Modern apps. The email app and others have also crashed on me. I can't trust Modern apps to be stable.

Two browsers, too much to handle
I feel like I have to think way too much about what things I have open in the "Modern" side of windows and what I have in the desktop... It's like having two separate computers and trying to use both of them at the same time but they don't interact with each other. Confusing.

My printer doesn't work
I had no problem with Vista and drivers, but apparently I got unlucky with Windows 8, and the Win7 drivers don't work for some reason. Not too much MS can do about that one, but it does suck.

Overall, if Windows 8 didn't make the touch response on my tablet TM2 so much better, I would go straight back to Windows 7. My parents have decided to live in the desktop mode, because of how unintuitive they feel the Modern interface is.

View: Windows 8 - Unintuitive at its best thread in our forums
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metro or modern UI, praised for phones, expanded its use to tablets but awful, painful, restrictive and unintuitive on desktop machines...

Microsoft should fix this before SP1 unless they want to people to stay with XP or 7

Let me state that I have tried to give Windows 8 the benefit of the doubt. I've tried the preview, the release candidate and the Win8 Enterprise version. My opinion of the OS remains the same.... it will be a good tablet OS, but it is clearly not ready for the desktop, not as long as Metro/Modern/Whatever UI is what you face first. It's not designed for folks who use the mouse or tablet devices like a Wacom or VisTablet, it's counter-intuitive in many respects, it forces you to go through hoops just as the original author indicates, and it feels like it would fail in the corporate environment, and likely fail in the home environment.

While there are clearly a few benefits to the new OS, the failings outweigh (to me) the value of installing it. Perhaps after Microsoft realizes the fact that folks are having issues with it, and the complaints pile up as high as Mt. Rainier, then maybe Microsoft will realize that for a desktop you have to be able to have ease of use... and in this respect Windows 8 fails for me.

But I know, the folks who love it will keep saying that folks like me simply don't understand. And you're right... I'm not a person who uses a tablet, or a smartphone, I use what's best for the kind of things that I do on my computer, and Windows 8 gives the clear impression that I won't be able to do those things with ease.

Let's debunk the myth's of Windows 8. So let's go ahead and bust these myths from the O.P.

Myth #1- No Clock:

Nobody needs a clock OK. If you need to see the time swipe from the right for the charms and then you see the time OK.

Myth #2- Searching in email is a pain:

It's not a pain, it's consistent. If all Metro style apps had different search boxes and places it would be harder, so all you need to remember is the Search charm, and it works with all Metro style apps that support the contract.

Myth #3- Can't flip between photos, must open them one by one:

Don't use File Explorer to flip between photos, use another program for that.

Myth #4- Can't flip between attached photos in email:

Again, don't use Photo Viewer to flip between photos, use another program for that.

Myth #5- Switching tabs in IE Metro:

Why are you using Metro IE? You know it's designed for touchscreens. Use desktop IE, now that's a proper IE.

Myth #6- Bringing up the bottom and top options bar in apps:

Don't use Metro IE.

Myth #7- No "Save As" option in IE Metro:

Don't use Metro IE to download.

Myth #8- Reader crashes and doesn't save:

Don't use Reader, instead use a proper PDF reading app.

Myth #9- Two browsers, too much to handle:

Simple, just choose what IE you want to browse in and you don't have to worry about that.

Myth #10- My printer doesn't work:

What does that have to do with Windows 8 - Unintuitivity at it best? You know that's a driver issue and it's in the post.

Myth #11-Printing Files:

Again, having printing in a consistent location across Metro style apps is good and great. I call that myth busted.

So all myth's have been busted in common sense terms. Please MS doesn't care about people that don't like Windows 8. I consider using Windows 7 Explorer for Windows 8, gives you the best of both worlds, No Metro and there's OS improvements. So going back to Windows 7 is bad idea because Windows 8 has improvements across the board.

Note: Cross posted to the original forum topic.

WinMetro ...

So... we're using it wrong...
All your solutions point to the classical desktop apps...
So why do se need Metro then?

i should record a video of what i'm doing right now lol

I have open on the desktop right this minute
uTorrent
Windows Media Center
Firefox
Explorer Windows
Avidemux

and i flip around opening various apps from the quick launch i setup
or the pinned taskbar explorer folders or lastly / rarely the start menu
Oh and i will be pretty ticked off if i can't see my Aida64 Sensor Panel i created
that runs along the right vertical side of my screen (always on top disabled)
Worth mentioning that i have almost all apps such as Firefox sized to fill the screen
minus the Sensor panel area and taskbar. And everything is black based..
Theme, scripting on web pages, my wallpaper, my osd.
Custom sleek and efficient and BLACK
Can't see how a Windows 8 is gonna do anything than **** me off big time !

Store:
- No similar apps
- No ability to launch installed app from its page in Store
- No ability to update installed app from its page in Store without dealing with full list of updates
- No what's new
- You don't see average app rating after voting for it
- No review filters

Launcher:
- Always drops to begin of Start screen.
- No proper tiles resizing. Just two sizes.

Poor localizations:
- Most strings gets truncated by one or two letters, not talking about language quality
- Services not localized

Ugly default apps with almost zero functionality:
Email - everything is messed up on a single screen - accounts, folders, list of messages, message body
Messenger is quite ugly and support just WLM and Facebook. First has under 0,01% of instant messengers here. Second isn't in Top 5 of social networks.
News and Sport are useless - those just feed clients. And quite unusable feed clients. Nowhere close to Google News and Yandex News.
Maps is just a joke.
Finances poorly works outside US.

Wtf is this printing nonsense originating from?Use Adobe Reader as you always have and hey presto, the button is there. It is the APPLICATION you should be criticizing...Jesus, how many times will we have to go through this.

Again, same with looking at photo's, if you use explorer, windows photo viewer, NO PROBLEMS in desktop mode....

In fact, most of these problems are quite silly. If you use desktop mode, boom, all the functionality you need comes back. The Metro apps are designed for simple quick tasks. The only one that has a genuine case is the printing, but again, that is a problem with the application and not the operating system.

The new metro apps are definitely underwhelming. People in this forum are saying, don't use metro apps, stay in classic. Well the average user is going to buy a pc and all the default file types launch into metro apps. Do you think non tech users will figure out how to launch the classic apps or make them the default? People will be confused.

I am an R&D guy and I am always working with new tech. I know when I see something that is unpolished / unfinished (windows 8). I am also an android guy. The app navigation and the navigation and between metro and classic is worse than when android came out. That was one of the worst parts about android and it is also a major problem in Windows 8.

I totally agree with the PDF print issue in the blog post and the issue with viewing multiple files. I also put together my own list of top gripes with windows 8.

1. Looks good, but feels like it was developed for tablets, especially in locations that require horizontal scrolling. When using a mouse the mouse wheel did scroll horizontally in some cases, but not all.

2. The interface is non-intuitive. There are some intial instructions about moving the cursur to the corners, which is good, but if you just place this version of Windows in front of a new user they will struggle. After some time people will be fine, but initial interactions are not obvious. Also, the tutorial is horrible, it is not near enough for people to figure out basic interactions.

3. Feels like you are using 2 different operating systems when switching to windows classic to run non metro apps. There are many metro apps to accomplish tasks, but when there is no metro app (office, chrome, eclipse, etc), you get punted to the classic version of windows.

4. Need to move the mouse off the screen in the corners for menus to show. This is just stupid! Also, if you try and click on the icon shown in the bottom left corner to get to metro/classic it does not work. You need to click off the screen, why not let someone click the icon, that seems more intuitive.

5. Closing applications is after use in metro is not obvious. For instance, when I am finished using Internet Explorer I want to quickly close all open tabs. I cannot do this from within IE. At least not in an easy / obivous manner.

6. It is necessary to right click to select tabs and type in the address bar in IE10. No reason to hide everything on a desktop.

7. Start button is dead, I miss it..

8. There are two versions of applications to view pictures, listen to music, etc, etc. I think this will be a source of confusion for users. For instance, when you are in windows classic in file explorer, if you double click a photo you are launched back into the metro photo viewer. I would think you would get the classic photo viewer. Instead you need to navigate back to windows exporer to continue managing your photos throught file explorer.

9. There is no way you can purely use metro if you are a windows power user. Lauching multiple instances of browsers, spreadsheets, word documents, etc is the norm. View things side by side is necessary. Metro seems to want to keep you in a single instance of an application. If Metro is the long term plan then it will necessary to find a way to accomodate power users.

10. Some metro features require that you go into windows classic for configuration. For instance, adding pictures, videos, music, etc. from a non standard folder requires modification of the library in Windows Explorer. Why not provide a capability to add a folder to the library from the metro app. Also, the help icon in the metro app for adding files to a library does not take you directly to the help information needed.

I agree with all your points!

5) You can actually close all the tabs in IE... Right click to open the tabs, and then off to the right of the screen click the (...) button and then click Close All Tabs.

Nevertheless I end up with like 20 tabs open cause of how IE behaves, it's really annoying.

Honestly it's pretty easy to stay on the desktop all the time and forget about the new metro interface. In the meantime that their is a bunch of good RT apps, nothing easier to use the desktop as with Windows 7.

It is indeed very unintuitive to swtich from metro to desktop, as far as i'm conern, I'll wait until I can do almost everything with metro then i'll switch.

what else do you expect from neowin? partially owned by stardock,who makes customization software for windows desktop. they have every interest in making you hate metro because their business will suffer. nuff said.

PS: and with those kind of articles its clear why people are negative about Windows 8 even without using it before: win 8 doenst even have a clock! please bloggers make clear that there are two modes metro and the classical destkop and that most of your complaints refer to metro. if you stay on the destop you have the same and even improved experience over Windows 7!!

OMG! What a BS article again about Windows 8!
for nearly all your points (and the others who are complaining) refer to metro, so:
JUST STAY IN THE DESKTOP!!!

if you dont like metro: dont use it!!! (i know there is metrofied start-menu that make you cry because you have to click on a tile instead of static icon on the Desktop to start your work.....

i like metro for basic tasks and will propably love it for my new touch devices, but usually stay on the destop.

everyone who complains about metro (and the unfinished metro apps) didnt understand what MS created here: ONE OS TO RULE THEM ALL! they give u the choice what to use! and you are complaining about missing clocks!

With windows 8 i have learned to use the start screen well but still prefer the start menu since its what i have been using for years however this will change as i get used to windows 8. The start screen is a bit of a pain on mouse and keyboard but is ok but not great after you learn the basics of how things work however it still needs work to make it function better on non touch devices. Where windows 8 and the start screen shine is touch and will give android and apple a serious challenge with the influx of windows 8 tablets and hybrid computers. However windows 8 has a tough road ahead on non touch devices and this could of been mostly avoided if they at least gave you the option to enable and disable the start menu. However the start menu may not be an issue for consumers if other OEMs follow Samsungs route and include some sort of a start menu alliterative.

Bottom line if you like windows 8 use it, if not stick to windows 7 or whatever os works best for you.

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin.

There is a clock in the bottom right corner which has always been there, the same as pretty much every other version of windows.

Windows 7 and below didnt have native PDF support, so theres no argument to have about that, your just griping for the sake of it.

Pictures have to be opened one by one? err no they don't press the next button on the desktop version, its better anyway.

don't use IE10 Metro, just use IE10 Desktop.

Having an issue with right clicking, take it you never used right click on any previous versions of windows then.

Reader crashes? You may want to check out your system, I've had no problems been using it for months.

two browsers is a problem? Choose one and stick with it no one is forcing you to use both!

Your printer doesn't work? You do realise its not actually been released to retail yet right? Give it a few weeks. That is manufacturer problem not Windows.

What is wrong with files going into one folder? you will have to go into there anyway just create a folder when you are done, its the way I've done it for years, never creates a problem.

Like the OP I am in the "don't like" and find it unintuitive camp. Looks nice though. I can see why some folks like it and why some hate it, but I wish both camps could just get along. Lets agree to disgaree. That being said, it is way too obvious it was designed to be a touch OS ubiquitous across all platforms and I am confident its going to be great in the tablet world. I owned a Samsung Focus WP7 phone and loved it (but for the battery life). As a desktop OS however, Metro/Modern/Cubist UI Or whatever you want to call it really does not work unless you have a touchscreen. I have used it on a touchscreen...it works very well.
...best comment so far?

" If you're after a radiation accident with subsequent mutations, use Windows 8." Credit: Northgrove.

Windows 8 is not unintuitive, it just reveal how fashioned you re about old desktop user interface. I don't say that mobile device era is better or really intuitive (so, it's natural to send a file to another device, like a printer to print it) but I'm saying that Windows 8 is a transitionnal system between these two world, so it will make us think both way, that's good.
So what is really a intuitive system ? I think there is a lot of things to improve on Windows 8 but the traditionnal media rush against all new Windows version release, just for sell news, get more and more boring.

It's easy to see both sides of the camp. Those that like Windows 8/Metro and those that are annoyed by/dislike it.

I think the issue here is level of intuition required to use the new interface. Sure, you can adapt and find ways round in Metro to do what was we've become accustomed to do before in Windows 7 (Printing PDFs for one) but Metro on a desktop is not as intuitive as it could be.
Some find it easy to find a work around but lots don't. A major win for Apple is that they've spent time on making things intuitive on their products. This is clearly weaker in Windows 8.

I like the concept of Metro and can understand MS decision to push it into focus but they have not worked on making it intuitive enough in my book.

I suspect that this is what's dividing everyone.

Printing files:
downdload fox-it. problem solved.

No clock:
I have a clock. It is just a setting to get it to show. do it.

Searcing email:
WIN+Q or slide from the side.
if you don't like the built in client, which is designed for touch btw, just use outlook.com. Far superior.

Photos:
just use the desktop photo app then. it is there you know.

flip photos on email:
not even outlook in office can. use outlook.com's gallery feature for that.

switch tabs in IE metro:
use IE desktop or use CTL+TAB. you know, like in EVERY BROWSER duh!

options bar:
WIN+Z or slide from the bottom. it is not that hard! And if you've to the ribbon minimized, it is the same amount of actions to a command.

save as in IE:
LOL you're saving webpages. you realize nobody does that right?. if it is such a big deal, use FF, Chrome. IE 10 desktop.

Reader Crash:
Fox it.

Two Browsers:
Really? I have Firefox, Chrome, IE, and Safary. too much to handle? go home Grampa!

Printer:
complain to your OEM. They make the drivers. Stop going whaaaa whaaaa.


neonspark said,
save as in IE:
LOL you're saving webpages. you realize nobody does that right?

I understood that he was talking about saving file downloads, not pages.

jubbbird said,

I understood that he was talking about saving file downloads, not pages.

I don't get this. Either start using the Downloads folder or do some Google searches about how to change the default save location in the registry or with a third party app. Not really that hard....

briangw said,

I don't get this. Either start using the Downloads folder or do some Google searches about how to change the default save location in the registry or with a third party app. Not really that hard....


Maybe sometimes people want to save a specific file to a different folder...

bigbadboy said,

Maybe sometimes people want to save a specific file to a different folder...

That's why a google search will tell you how to do that.

another uninteresting post from the forums that due to its anti-windows stand, makes for perfect link bait. surely none of the many that actually like windows 8 bubble up since you know, good new doesn't sell clicks. lame-o.

this is starting to feel as "fair and balanced" as the fox news channel.

I think the tablet experience will bring it into it's own. And for the desktop it's the same old desktop.

My biggest beef with Metro on desktop is that I can't pinch to zoom in ANY apps. Mail, Bing news, etc. etc. etc. I will assume I will be able to on a tablet, but I see NO reason I should not be able to ctrl+ or pinch my trackpad.

I hope they tweak the crap out of it before launch. but, you know how that goes.

One of the most ridiculous points is... the one where we he thinks he has to use the Modern applications, and ignores that fact that if he went to the desktop, he'd have none of this problems Printing and searching is standard across Modern applications, as is the app bar, so it's something that should become second nature...

Although, why do we only seem to pick out the negative Windows 8 posts directly regarding Windows 8 experiences in "From the Forums" recently? ;P "Windows 8 Design inconsistencies", "Windows 8 is the first OS that made me downgrade", this one...

i think because a lot of win 8 fans are in denial about win 8 having issues.
They think windows 8 is perfect for everyone and as pointed out in the start of the story, they are "doing it wrong" lol

Damn, I miss those times when we all got together and cheered for the next release.
Sure, everyone had something they didn't like, but overall it was still okay.
Most of the things people complained about were bugs or purely technical and so everyone (almost) could agree and at least anticipate SP1.

Windows 8 is dividing and I can't stand that and the mentality that many have when telling others why their sentiments or usage patterns "are wrong" - either side!


I just want peace now. Windows 8 in my books is written off, I'm waiting for W9 or a big SP1 gift...

GS:mac

Glassed Silver said,
Damn, I miss those times when we all got together and cheered for the next release.
Sure, everyone had something they didn't like, but overall it was still okay.
Most of the things people complained about were bugs or purely technical and so everyone (almost) could agree and at least anticipate SP1.

Windows 8 is dividing and I can't stand that and the mentality that many have when telling others why their sentiments or usage patterns "are wrong" - either side!


I just want peace now. Windows 8 in my books is written off, I'm waiting for W9 or a big SP1 gift...

GS:mac

My feelings exactly, seems that microsoft is making is own people to fight themselves using their very "faith" in them...

i agree and have been thinking what you said more and more..
i imagine how some of us would be getting along great because
we have lots in common and then Win 8 came out etc.
Its sad to see people divided and going at each other.

I try hard not to pee on anyones parade. I don't go most topics and start
creating comments bashing windows 8. 90% of the time i reply to a comment
being made by a win8 fan that is making unrealistic claims and hidden stabs / insults at people that do not like win 8. (in other words after i feel provoked)
I hope everyone that likes windows 8 enjoys it and has fun and i have no intention of trying to steer people away from it. My focus is moving forward with what is.

I want to avoid my comment inflaming things here and now.
I just want to say I'd love to see some more effort for each side
of the Windows 8 debate take the time to truely understand where
they are coming from. We are different and use our machines differently.

Can't we just hug it out ?

lol... not knowing a printer is a device. This is something that was introduced as a name scheme with Vista in 2007.

x-byte said,
lol... not knowing a printer is a device. This is something that was introduced as a name scheme with Vista in 2007.

Of course a printer is a de vice...
On the other hand, PRINTING is an action...

My personal favorite is the split screen feature. For some really dumb ass reason it doesn't allow resizing the split to either one side 1/4 and the other 3/4 of the screen. Nothing in between despite there being a fluid drag, it just snaps to a certain size after though. In general it makes a feature that could be somewhat useful into a feature that just makes a portion of the screen unusable.

Also the charms bar is great in the way it gives you options where clicking them on the desktop just brings a "you can't do anything" message. Why show them there in the first place? If the selected app doesn't support it, just show less icons to avoid unnecessary clicks.

Oh and let's not forget how the OS has 3 different control panels, some of them quite well hidden too. One was enough.

I agree with most but I think that comparison is not good when you say that you can just click print in Windows 7 for pdf. Windows 7 doesn't open pdf natively, you use Adobe Reader and click Print and that functionality is the same in 8.

BTW, I haven't printed form Reader yet(I don't even use it, changed the default program to Adobe Reader the first time), but as soon as I read the heading my first thought was to go to Devices in Charms bar as printer is a device. Again, I am not saying that everyone will think that naturally but it was intuitive to me.

And a tip. The best place to right click for the options is to go to the top of the screen where the pointer turns to hand and then right click. I found it because I was trying to bring up the tabs on a page which didn't seem to allow right click as nothing happened when I right clicked. Even right clicking on the blank area or the extreme sides of the page didn't bring up the tabs menu. Then, I accidentally found it.

After testing these past months and playing around with Win8 on a backup laptop I have, I am not a fan of it, but I will be upgrading... simply because while I dislike the Modern (whatever) interface, I am convinced that with some pieces of third party software, an experience pretty much just like Win7 is possible (with a few annoyances). I have great faith in the third party community to make Windows do what we want it to. I'll have a Surface and probably a WP8 to work together with it for MS-ey things.

Windows 7 will be my last upgrade, until they fix up this mess they've created with Windows 8.

I can't stand all these Windows 8 fanboys either. I have been experimenting with OSs since the early 80s thank you very much. I know a good OS when I see one.

68k said,
Windows 7 will be my last upgrade, until they fix up this mess they've created with Windows 8.

I can't stand all these Windows 8 fanboys either. I have been experimenting with OSs since the early 80s thank you very much. I know a good OS when I see one.

according to them your using it wrong lol

OOOOHHHHHHH

now i learned how to print from reader. i thought i cant do it in reader. i installed adobe reader to print stuff. now i see....

Sorry, but SERIOUSLY?
The charms ARE the point. It opens up all the ways for doing things. Putting a search box somewhere, a settings/print icon would be crazy and and pointless with regards to Windows 8 UI princliples. Get used to the Charms.

The only thing I agree with is printing via the Charms. I've been worried that the Share and Devices would be unintuitive for the average user. They need to be in the app bar of apps that need them.

I still have the clock, I still get on using everything fine.

This smacks of a user who's allowed his fury at probably not having a start button to cloud his judgement. For me, a systems administrator, I have found the transition painless and found many niche new features actually aid my day to day procedures.

People seems to either really like or really hate that charms bar.

Personally I like it, it provides a level of consistency for basic functionality (search, settings, device actions (like printing)) among all programs.

One of the most ridiculous points is the lack of clock. I don't know...but somehow i see it right where it was since Windows 95, lower right corner.

DariusIII said,
One of the most ridiculous points is the lack of clock. I don't know...but somehow i see it right where it was since Windows 95, lower right corner.

You can't see what time it is in Metro land, unless you invoke the charms bar

DariusIII said,
One of the most ridiculous points is the lack of clock. I don't know...but somehow i see it right where it was since Windows 95, lower right corner.

I'm just curious, so I know: why do you feel you need a clock on show at all times, on your computer screen?

Calum said,

I'm just curious, so I know: why do you feel you need a clock on show at all times, on your computer screen?

Because I like to keep track of time at a glance.

Richio said,

Because I like to keep track of time at a glance.

Apple just came out with something new and incredible called a "wristwatch." It's functional and can be fashionable as well. I think it will nicely fill the niche where Microsoft has left people high and dry, having to move their mouse to the side of the screen to see a clock on the Start Screen.

Calum said,

I'm just curious, so I know: why do you feel you need a clock on show at all times, on your computer screen?

why do keep challenging people on how they use their box ?
are you trying to point out how all these people complaining are "doing it wrong" ?

Sorry i just see a pattern here with your comments and many others.

I'd have to agree too
I like the clock where it was ..didn't need to be changed.

I am Not PCyr said,

why do keep challenging people on how they use their box ?
are you trying to point out how all these people complaining are "doing it wrong" ?

Sorry i just see a pattern here with your comments and many others.

I'd have to agree too
I like the clock where it was ..didn't need to be changed.


No, it isn't so I can complain that they're doing it wrong, at all. I ask people so that I can learn and understand why their use their devices in certain ways. Surely someone trying to understand is better than someone who ignorantly states someone is doing something wrong without even trying to understand why they use it in that way. As I say, though, I wasn't even going to suggest he was doing anything wrong (which is why I didn't reply to his comment). I merely wanted to understand why he would like the clock showing at all times on his computer.

I think most people are accustomed to how things operate before. Typically, most applications have a print button to print stuff. And probably a search box to search stuff. Both of these are located depending on the developer. Now, Microsoft took a stance that Search and Print should be at the same location regardless of the app that user is using. That's why they have Search and Print are in the Charm Bar - same location and same method for ALL apps. Now this is confusing at first, but I have adapted to this new thinking, and it actually works well for me. Likewise, I think a lot of what we think is "intuitive" is merely learned experiences.

Since using Windows 8 RP for the last few months, it's pretty simple for me.

I need to search for something in an app = Search charm
I need to print an email in the Mail app, a webpage in Metro IE, a map within the Map app, etc = Device charm > Print
I want to share a link to Facebook = Share charm > People

Again, all of these functions are ALWAYS in the same location and are invoked with the same method. It's different. It needs to be learned, but I think once learned, it works well, at least for me. Frankly though, I stay about 90% in desktop mode because there's no good apps yet.

Here's the biggest thing: The developer for each app must enable the contracts (i.e. Search, Share, Device, Settings). So don't knock on the OS because the developer fails to do something that you think should be there. Likewise, there's nothing strictly prohibiting the app from showing a button for print and a search box.

KevinN206 said,
I think most people are accustomed to how things operate before. Typically, most applications have a print button to print stuff. And probably a search box to search stuff. Both of these are located depending on the developer. Now, Microsoft took a stance that Search and Print should be at the same location regardless of the app that user is using. That's why they have Search and Print are in the Charm Bar - same location and same method for ALL apps. Now this is confusing at first, but I have adapted to this new thinking, and it actually works well for me. Likewise, I think a lot of what we think is "intuitive" is merely learned experiences.

Since using Windows 8 RP for the last few months, it's pretty simple for me.

I need to search for something in an app = Search charm
I need to print an email in the Mail app, a webpage in Metro IE, a map within the Map app, etc = Device charm > Print
I want to share a link to Facebook = Share charm > People

Again, all of these functions are ALWAYS in the same location and are invoked with the same method. It's different. It needs to be learned, but I think once learned, it works well, at least for me. Frankly though, I stay about 90% in desktop mode because there's no good apps yet.

Here's the biggest thing: The developer for each app must enable the contracts (i.e. Search, Share, Device, Settings). So don't knock on the OS because the developer fails to do something that you think should be there. Likewise, there's nothing strictly prohibiting the app from showing a button for print and a search box.

You hit it right on the dot. The problem is simply coming to terms with unfamiliar paradigms introduced with Metro/Windows 8. Most people have lived with MFC/Win32 all of their computing lives, so this is a big shift.

The biggest gripe I have with 8 is that I'm forced to lose productivity - I can't afford it, that's all. Sure, probably I'll be forced to at some point, but not today. IMHO, Microsoft are taking quite a risk with 8 in the desktop segment. Ultimately the market will sort out what's right, what's wrong.

Breach said,
The biggest gripe I have with 8 is that I'm forced to lose productivity - I can't afford it, that's all. Sure, probably I'll be forced to at some point, but not today. IMHO, Microsoft are taking quite a risk with 8 in the desktop segment. Ultimately the market will sort out what's right, what's wrong.

In what way is your productivity lost?

Calum said,

In what way is your productivity lost?

In no way. People seem to think they can get a lot done in two seconds by looking at the desktop while the start menu is open.

Breach said,
The biggest gripe I have with 8 is that I'm forced to lose productivity - I can't afford it, that's all. Sure, probably I'll be forced to at some point, but not today. IMHO, Microsoft are taking quite a risk with 8 in the desktop segment. Ultimately the market will sort out what's right, what's wrong.

If you're really losing productivity due to Windows 8, you're simply inept. My guess is that you are *NOT* inept, but instead have an aversion to change, and the level of change entailed with the switch is uncomfortable. A lot of scenarios have been carefully designed in Windows 8 to improve productivity (in the range of milliseconds here and there). Your loss of productivity is likely very temporary or all in your head.

most of these points have more to do with the apps than the OS. good thing you can still use desktops programs and stop bitching.....

dafin0 said,
most of these points have more to do with the apps than the OS. good thing you can still use desktops programs and stop bitching.....

It's atypical these days to speak of an OS, and then only talk of its implementation of memory management, HAL layer, and resource allocation. Operating systems are today marketed as not only the kernel, but also the applications accompanying it. As a package.

And yes, desktop applications can be used, but Metro / Modern UI / Fancy Windows 8 Interface is in your face and the future according to Microsoft. It's where they want you to be, and Windows 8 is designed as such. If you're after the desktop, use Windows 7 and be happy. If you're after a radiation accident with subsequent mutations, use Windows 8.

not that its a good things but built in apps for Windows have always been sh*t.
people tend not to use the built in image editor (paint) or document maker (word pad).

dafin0 said,
most of these points have more to do with the apps than the OS. good thing you can still use desktops programs and stop bitching.....

i'd agree except for the stop bitching part..
your Stop bitching comment IS bitching itself so..
never mind the fact that people have every right to complain and should.
Things don't change for the better when you sit in the corner quietly.

Couple years ago i lived at a different place than now and i would go in
to my old job and bitch about my landlord and the rent cost..
One of the last times i got a snotty cocky little response from one of the
cool guys telling me how it is and to stop bithing it never does any good
and i laughed in his face and told him what i was gonna say before i was interrupted..
I told the landlord the rent was too high and complained about them being noisy douches and 5 minutes later they offered to lower the rent.

I WILL BITCH AND COMPLAIN FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE !
if you don't like it ?
too bad ..go complain about it

I think you did the same mistake every other did when complaining about Windows 8:

Why do you use the Metro (Modern UI) apps on a desktop machine? That makes nearly no sense!!! They are developed for touch screens, especially for tablets. Using them on a desktop machine has nearly no benefit. Maybe this will change in the future. This is the first wave of Metro Apps, they are at best usable. Not a replacement for all the excellent desktop apps you are used to.

If you want to print PDF's, use the normal adobe reader...

Michael A. Volz said,
I think you did the same mistake every other did when complaining about Windows 8:

Why do you use the Metro (Modern UI) apps on a desktop machine? That makes nearly no sense!!!


Microsoft apparently missed that memo as they booted your desktop PC into Metro / Fancy UI.

Michael A. Volz said,
I think you did the same mistake every other did when complaining about Windows 8:

Why do you use the Metro (Modern UI) apps on a desktop machine? That makes nearly no sense!!! They are developed for touch screens, especially for tablets. Using them on a desktop machine has nearly no benefit. Maybe this will change in the future. This is the first wave of Metro Apps, they are at best usable. Not a replacement for all the excellent desktop apps you are used to.

If you want to print PDF's, use the normal adobe reader...

The thing is that not all computers out there have touch capabilities, and in the future, I'm sure that will change... And Microsoft is pushing the Modern UI and Modern apps, whether the machine's touch-capable or not...

Michael A. Volz said,
I think you did the same mistake every other did when complaining about Windows 8:

Why do you use the Metro (Modern UI) apps on a desktop machine? That makes nearly no sense!!! They are developed for touch screens, especially for tablets. Using them on a desktop machine has nearly no benefit. Maybe this will change in the future. This is the first wave of Metro Apps, they are at best usable. Not a replacement for all the excellent desktop apps you are used to.

If you want to print PDF's, use the normal adobe reader...


Using the "Metro" apps on a desktop PC makes perfect sense, actually. They're designed to work well on different formfactors, and they work great on a desktop PC.

Northgrove said,

Microsoft apparently missed that memo as they booted your desktop PC into Metro / Fancy UI.

That's just a program launcher for desktop programs. It would be the same thing if they popped open your start menu once the desktop loaded. It's 'really not a big deal since you are usually going to do something on your computer after you log in, not stare at your desktop.

Michael A. Volz said,
I think you did the same mistake every other did when complaining about Windows 8:

Why do you use the Metro (Modern UI) apps on a desktop machine? That makes nearly no sense!!! They are developed for touch screens, especially for tablets. Using them on a desktop machine has nearly no benefit. Maybe this will change in the future. This is the first wave of Metro Apps, they are at best usable. Not a replacement for all the excellent desktop apps you are used to.

If you want to print PDF's, use the normal adobe reader...

I enjoy using Metro apps on the desktop. I especially like them on my HTPC and my kitchen computer.

Michael A. Volz said,
I think you did the same mistake every other did when complaining about Windows 8:

Why do you use the Metro (Modern UI) apps on a desktop machine? That makes nearly no sense!!! They are developed for touch screens, especially for tablets. Using them on a desktop machine has nearly no benefit. Maybe this will change in the future. This is the first wave of Metro Apps, they are at best usable. Not a replacement for all the excellent desktop apps you are used to.

If you want to print PDF's, use the normal adobe reader...

That is why I plan to use Start8, boot into desktop, and use every tool available to me to get rid of modern / metro or whatever the hell you wanna call it. That way I'll have the advantage of essentially a Win7-like OS with updated components and super-fast speed.

From the forum:

Arguments both sides are fine. I can see how people like Windows 8, I can see why people hate it.

I'm one the ones that hate it. I've used it now. It doesn't work for me. All I have found is just how often I click the start button. For me, I rarely use my Windows button on my keyboard. Sure, it's still there to click. It's in a stupid spot. I use two monitors, my task bar i on the right hand screen, but the left screen is mouse left. So I actually have to stop doing what I'm doing, focus on the task bar to make sure I click on a tiny bit of screen space that seems to be about 1x1 pixel.

The charms menu is a pain the the ass. I just don't like it. I don't care how functional others think it is, I hate it.

Metro apps annoy me. Again, I use my mouse to click on the task bar a lot.

Bottom line is, I use my mouse a lot, and this OS just doesn't seem friendly or easy to use for me. I think the Modern UI is horrible. I think it looks terrible. Left and Right scrolling is just un-natural to me.

Credit to Microsoft though. IMO they have created one hell of a tablet OS.

You can use ctrl-esc to get to the start menu. Pressing any character will start the search for programs. If I would want to start Notepad I press ctrl-esc, enter "Notep" (I don't need to write the whole name) and press enter. Maybe that helps a little.

btw: it's 3x3 pixels in the release version. You don't need the charms menu on a desktop machine. I never used it once. I use the start-menu and the search. Works very good for me.

Michael A. Volz said,
You can use ctrl-esc to get to the start menu. Pressing any character will start the search for programs. If I would want to start Notepad I press ctrl-esc, enter "Notep" (I don't need to write the whole name) and press enter. Maybe that helps a little.

Did you completely miss the entire reason Windows 8 doesn't work for me? I use my mouse. I like using my mouse. It's how how interact with my computer the most.

Nashy said,

Did you completely miss the entire reason Windows 8 doesn't work for me? I use my mouse. I like using my mouse. It's how how interact with my computer the most.


Conform or die!

/s

Either way, totally share your sentiments, it's the same for me.
It's even worse when you run W8 in a VM with smart mouse enabled (Parallels has it, others too I bet).
It detects when your mouse moves away from the virtual screen into the host OS environment... Needless to say the active corners become unusable.

GS:mac

Nashy said,
From the forum:
All I have found is just how often I click the start button. For me, I rarely use my Windows button on my keyboard. Sure, it's still there to click. It's in a stupid spot. I use two monitors, my task bar i on the right hand screen, but the left screen is mouse left. So I actually have to stop doing what I'm doing, focus on the task bar to make sure I click on a tiny bit of screen space that seems to be about 1x1 pixel.

In the final release Microsoft added a feature that you can't switch screens when your mouse cursor is within a certain range of the corners of your screen so this should make it much easier to hit the corner on a multi-monitor setup. I don't have a multi monitor setup myself so can't say if it works though.

mog0 said,

In the final release Microsoft added a feature that you can't switch screens when your mouse cursor is within a certain range of the corners of your screen so this should make it much easier to hit the corner on a multi-monitor setup. I don't have a multi monitor setup myself so can't say if it works though.


i have it installed in a multi monitor setup. they've added a catch in the corners that share a side with your other monitor so your mouse stops and wont continue. its a small area so you dont hit it by accident when not intending to, but do hit it easily when you want to.

I like it.

mog0 said,

In the final release Microsoft added a feature that you can't switch screens when your mouse cursor is within a certain range of the corners of your screen so this should make it much easier to hit the corner on a multi-monitor setup. I don't have a multi monitor setup myself so can't say if it works though.

Thank god, the earlier releases were practically unusable on multimonitor setups, seriously, it had me thinking that I would probably skip W8.

mog0 said,

In the final release Microsoft added a feature that you can't switch screens when your mouse cursor is within a certain range of the corners of your screen so this should make it much easier to hit the corner on a multi-monitor setup. I don't have a multi monitor setup myself so can't say if it works though.

It's much better. There's definitely a little "wall" to catch your mouse there, and it does the trick nicely.

Microsoft sends employees out to enforce their decisions down people's throats. I've even had an M$ employee visit my site on a Sunday night at 11pm from a M$ resolved IP. I have to seriously question how authentic this post and it's up-votes are.

JAB Creations said,
Microsoft sends employees out to enforce their decisions down people's throats. I've even had an M$ employee visit my site on a Sunday night at 11pm from a M$ resolved IP. I have to seriously question how authentic this post and it's up-votes are.

Ooooooo a conspiracy theory. Microsoft working in multiple timezones, or they might just be indexing for Bing?!

DKAngel said,
yet another bullcrap forum post, almost everything posted above ive never had a problem with
Yeah, and remember that is for you, a tech enthusiast. For the average user, the switch from Windows XP to Windows 7 was difficult. Just imagine what people will be saying if they switch to Windows 8...

JAB Creations said,
Microsoft sends employees out to enforce their decisions down people's throats. I've even had an M$ employee visit my site on a Sunday night at 11pm from a M$ resolved IP. I have to seriously question how authentic this post and it's up-votes are.

Oh, wow. Spelling Microsoft on the Internet with a dollar sign. Quel retro! It's not just clever, it's 20 years ago.

I had the same print PDF issue. That is how I ended up in this forum. I totally agree that windows 8 is unintuitive and navigation between apps and windows class is horrific. I also had the same problem view multiple pictures from a folder. How do you do it with the metro picture viewer?

DKAngel said,
yet another bullcrap forum post, almost everything posted above ive never had a problem with

Exactly. People don't want to take the extra 30 seconds to figure out how to do something. Waaaaaaaaaaa. Win8 is smokin fast and super intuitive.

DKAngel said,
yet another bullcrap forum post, almost everything posted above ive never had a problem with

Where's the bullcrap? Things that were instinctive and intuitive in Win7 are now not in Win8. If we're getting this much word about the frustrations of Win8 before it was even released to retail, imagine how much criticism will come out when it is available to the public. Just wait and see...