Xbox Linux team issues EU antitrust plea

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The programmers who got Linux to run on Microsoft's gaming console now want the EC's antitrust body to head off a legal response, sending an open letter to the European Commission, asking the EU's executive arm to protect their efforts to build Linux software for Microsoft's Xbox video game console.

Three members of the Xbox Linux Project, which has successfully built versions of the GNU/Linux operating system that can be run on the Xbox, argued in a letter faxed to the EC's antitrust arm that the console is little more than a Microsoft-only PC system cross-subsidised by the software company's operating system monopoly.

The project's letter raises questions about the extent to which computer manufacturers should be allowed to control what runs on their hardware. Intel and Microsoft are working on initiatives that would tighten controls over how software is allowed to run on PCs.

The project is hoping to be able to release a version of Linux that can be booted on an Xbox without the use of a mod chip, and says it has contacted Microsoft on three occasions to ask that Microsoft "sign" the software -- attaching a cryptographic code that would allow the console to recognise it as legitimate.

View: XBox Linux Project's EU letter

News source: ZDNet

The .af domain was first registered with the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority in October 1997 by a private Afghan citizen named Abdul Razeeq, according to Aimal Marjan, an adviser to the minister of communications.

According the IANA Web site, however, Razeeq later disappeared and some services were halted to the .af domain.

Efforts to relaunch it began again after the Taliban were ousted in a U.S.-led war in late 2001.

"For Afghanistan, this is like reclaiming part of our sovereignty," Communications Minister Mohammad Moassom Stanakzai said in a statement on Sunday.

So far, just two Web sites have been registered under the .af domain, one belonging to the Ministry of Communications, the other to UNDP. As of Sunday, the ministry site was still "under construction."

Despite the Internet's spread around the world in the last decade, it remains a rarity in Afghanistan, which is still struggling to recover from more than two decades of near-continuous warfare.

A handful of Internet cafes have sprung up in the war-battered capital, Kabul, since last summer, but online time is too expensive for the average citizen, who typically earns less than a dollar a day.

On the Net:
Internet Assigned Numbers Authority: http://www.iana.org
Afghan Ministry of Communications: http://www.moc.gov.af
U.N. Development Program, Afghanistan: http://www.undp.org.af

(6 replies) #1 Fanon on 10 Mar 2003 - 05:01

OMG. Geez. People are so stupid. If they wanted the XBox to be ran like a PC, they wouldn't have made the piece of machinery a [b]gaming[/b] console. No matter how many things I have seen, I am still amazed by the idiocy of people. If the EU decided to pick this up, then they are going to have to file against Sony and Nintendo for the same reasons. It is not a friggin monopoly; it is a type of product. Get over it.

#1.1 Guspaz on 11 Mar 2003 - 00:46

You're so stupid yourself it's quite funny. I don't see why they should file against Sony, they ALREADY SELL A PS2 LINUX PACKAGE YOU IDIOT. As for Nintendo, there is no point due to it's non-standard optical drive format, not to mention it's slow processor. Microsoft should have thought twice before cramming a full PC into a gaming console case. People like you also seem to ignore the other benefits of the XBox Linux Project, such as the excellent XBox Media Player, which allows you to use your XBox to play music, MPEG-1, MPEG-2, and MPEG-4 (DivX, XviD) content, among other things.

#1.2 Mav Phoenix on 11 Mar 2003 - 01:35

However the mini-dvd format does preclude many things.

#1.3 Fanon on 11 Mar 2003 - 14:27

[neoquote=#1.1 by Guspaz]You're so stupid yourself it's quite funny. I don't see why they should file against Sony, they ALREADY SELL A PS2 LINUX PACKAGE YOU IDIOT. As for Nintendo, there is no point due to it's non-standard optical drive format, not to mention it's slow processor. Microsoft should have thought twice before cramming a full PC into a gaming console case. People like you also seem to ignore the other benefits of the XBox Linux Project, such as the excellent XBox Media Player, which allows you to use your XBox to play music, MPEG-1, MPEG-2, and MPEG-4 (DivX, XviD) content, among other things.[/neoquote] Stupid, Idiot? No. Ignorant? Yes. I assume you are intelligent to know the difference. Had I known that there was a Linux package for the PS2 I would not have listed it. I apologize for not spending 24/7 of my life playing video games. I have a life - I suggest you get one for yourself. MS's decision to pack retail (although modified) computer components into the XBox was a good decision on their part. The only problem is when tards like yourself and the people at the XBox Linux Project think that because the XBox is loaded with PC parts it is automatically a computer and should, therefore, be placed in that category. While yes, it is a computer (anything that computes data and does something with that data is a form of computer) it is still a gaming console. Am I supposed to oogle over the supposed "benefits" of the XBox Linux Project? Sorry, I do not need it (that is what home entertainment systems are for). If I ever bought an XBox (or any other console) it would be to play games, not turn it into a cheap entertainment center. If you are so hard up on cash that you have to try to turn a gaming console into a PC, then I suggest you go to http://www.walmart.com and buy one of their cheap, crappy computers that comes with Linux already installed. There is no ground for an anti-trust case here. If you cannot see it, then you, dear child, are the idiot.

#1.4 Guspaz on 11 Mar 2003 - 17:09

I am. I just got so tired of people pissing on the Xbox Linux attempts, I snapped. I appologise. As for personal preference, I thought I made it clear. I don't think running Linux on the XBox as a small computer is smart. You can get a cheaper PC that will outperform it and not spend money on stuff you don't need like a powerfull GPU (Does a server really need a GeForce 4 class GPU?). I put together a Duron 800 out of mostly spare parts and payed perhaps 50-100$ in total, paying 300$ (CDN) for an XBox that would be slower would be silly. However, I think there ARE certain projects that are benefiting from the linux project's work that I think are incredibly usefull, such as the XBox Media Player. I only see two other ways to do the same thing: Buy an MPEG-4 compatible DVD player for 600$ US or more, or build a small form factor PC for even more. The Xbox running XMP is perhaps the cheapest most convienient media player you can get.

#1.5 jago6498 on 11 Mar 2003 - 18:41

Ok [b]Fanon[/b]...[b][u]TAKE A CHILL PILL AND GROW UP[/u]!!![/b] ...and [b]Guspaz[/b]...[b][u]TAKE A CHILL PILL AND GROW UP AS WELL[/u]!!![/b]

#1.6 Fanon on 12 Mar 2003 - 18:36

[neoquote=#1.4 by Guspaz]I am. I just got so tired of people pissing on the Xbox Linux attempts, I snapped. I appologise. As for personal preference, I thought I made it clear. I don't think running Linux on the XBox as a small computer is smart. You can get a cheaper PC that will outperform it and not spend money on stuff you don't need like a powerfull GPU (Does a server really need a GeForce 4 class GPU?). I put together a Duron 800 out of mostly spare parts and payed perhaps 50-100$ in total, paying 300$ (CDN) for an XBox that would be slower would be silly. However, I think there ARE certain projects that are benefiting from the linux project's work that I think are incredibly usefull, such as the XBox Media Player. I only see two other ways to do the same thing: Buy an MPEG-4 compatible DVD player for 600$ US or more, or build a small form factor PC for even more. The Xbox running XMP is perhaps the cheapest most convienient media player you can get.[/neoquote] There is nothing wrong with the XBox Linux project (I never said there was). My gripe is with the developers. First they expected MS to ship XBoxes so that their version of Linux would run without needing a mod-chip (wtf were they thinking?). Now they seek a baseless anti-trust suit. Where does the idiocy and stupidity end? The XBox should be sold as is. If people want to add things to it, that is their right - but they also need to know the consequences of making additions (one false solder and you've got a $200 door stop).

(4 replies) #2 jago6498 on 10 Mar 2003 - 05:28

I don't see why M$ would have a problem with this. They are trying to develop a version of Linux that would run [i]with out[/i] a mod chip. If its gonna run without a mod chip I don't see what the big deal is. I really don't see why the companies care what they do to the system. M$ has their $200+ for the system and I'm sure the people modding their system for Linux are also buying games...so whats the problem M$?

#2.1 macrosslover on 10 Mar 2003 - 06:01

[neoquote=#2.0 by jago6498]I don't see why M$ would have a problem with this. They are trying to develop a version of Linux that would run [i]with out[/i] a mod chip. If its gonna run without a mod chip I don't see what the big deal is. I really don't see why the companies care what they do to the system. M$ has their $200+ for the system and I'm sure the people modding their system for Linux are also buying games...so whats the problem M$?[/neoquote] the problem is, if these people get on LIVE then there's no way of knowing if they changed their xbox to add hacks and cheats to make the gameplay experience unenjoyable for everybody else. if they changed it like this, who's to know they won't do more. the only way Microsoft can tell if somebody changed it, is if they get on LIVE. plus they void their warranty. who's to say the mod chip doesn't mess up your system somehow, but when you call to get service you lie and say a game did it or it did it on it's own. but mainly these people are just upset because microsoft includes protections in the xbox to make it harder for them to hack it, so instead of trying to hack it they are trying to get a court to get Microsoft to remove it. basically a bunch of bs whiners.

#2.2 jago6498 on 10 Mar 2003 - 11:45

BUT...if they are able to develop a version of Linux that doesn't require a mod chip, the users of that version of Linux aren't violating anything. They wouldn't be chnaging anything in the system since it would be running off the CD (I assume.)

#2.3 Fanon on 10 Mar 2003 - 14:31

It really all comes down to a bunch of kids wanting a $200 computer. Sure, the XBox is more computer-like than any other gaming console, but it was not designed to be used as a computer. It is a product, and MS isn't flexing any sort of monopolistic muscles in refusing to allow Linux to run on their gaming console. I think these idiots need to learn exactly what it means to be monopolistic. If they looked at the market share of gaming consoles, they'd see MS is no where near of achieving that title. Again, if the EU picks this case up, they are going to have to file the same charges against Sony and Nintendo.

#2.4 jago6498 on 10 Mar 2003 - 19:09

[neoquote=#2.3 by Fanon]It really all comes down to a bunch of kids wanting a $200 computer. Sure, the XBox is more computer-like than any other gaming console, but it was not designed to be used as a computer. It is a product, and MS isn't flexing any sort of monopolistic muscles in refusing to allow Linux to run on their gaming console. I think these idiots need to learn exactly what it means to be monopolistic. If they looked at the market share of gaming consoles, they'd see MS is no where near of achieving that title. Again, if the EU picks this case up, they are going to have to file the same charges against Sony and Nintendo.[/neoquote] There are LOTS of things that were never meant to be something else, but thats what creates new and better innovative products. Right now, this project might not look like anything special but who knows...maybe this will eventually create something that is better.

(1 reply) #3 spIdeZ on 10 Mar 2003 - 05:59

jago, the answer is incredibly obvious

MS loses money on every Xbox sold. If linux could easily be used on it, then people would buy it for a PC, not for a console. If they used it as a PC, they wouldn't buy any Xbox games. And then MS would lose money

#3.1 Fanon on 10 Mar 2003 - 14:35

That can be said of any company that builds gaming consoles. It has long been known that these companies do not make money from console sales but from the games. So what's wrong with companies wanting to protect their investments?

(3 replies) #4 BigBoy on 10 Mar 2003 - 05:59

"What is the problem"... oh come on - please grow up... Read the XBOX EULA - then you will know. This is childish. Let's all go and sue someone because they don't want to let you run Linux on your car computer - how is that?? About the same. It is a CAR COMPUTER. This is a GAMING CONSOLE. If you want to run Linux - go to Walmart and pick up a $200 PC.

#4.1 quintesse on 10 Mar 2003 - 11:36

Aaah! So the EULA makes it allright now does it? So what's next? Car makers putting a lock on the hood of your car so only approved mechanics can open it to change the oil? I'm not saying that the request made by the XBox Linux team is overly smart but saying that what they do is childish because of the EULA is stupid. In fact in the EU they are starting investigations into these EULAs because companies seem to think they can just about demand that you give up your soul in those things.

#4.2 jago6498 on 10 Mar 2003 - 11:51

[neoquote=#4.0 by BigBoy]"What is the problem"... oh come on - please grow up... Read the XBOX EULA - then you will know. This is childish. Let's all go and sue someone because they don't want to let you run Linux on your car computer - how is that?? About the same. It is a CAR COMPUTER. This is a GAMING CONSOLE. If you want to run Linux - go to Walmart and pick up a $200 PC.[/neoquote] Geez what the hell is ur problem? Do you work for M$ or something?

Go take a chill pill before you pop a blood vessel buddy...hehe... Honestly people, even [b]IF[/b] they manage to develop a Linux version that can run without a mod chip...not every owner of the Xbox is gonna use it. Not everyone is a that intelligent to figure that out and try it. Plus even if people [b]DID[/b] buy the Xbox to run Linux on it, they are gonna buy at least a few games through form time-to-time. There will be [i]something[/i] in the game library that will appeal to them.

Last edited by 5352 on 10 Mar 2003 - 19:07

#4.3 Fanon on 10 Mar 2003 - 14:40

[neoquote=#4.1 by quintesse]Aaah! So the EULA makes it allright now does it? So what's next? Car makers putting a lock on the hood of your car so only approved mechanics can open it to change the oil?[/neoquote] That is two entirely different things (parallels cannot even be drawn between the two). There is a difference between normal maintenance and gutting the car (and still getting support for the product).

(1 reply) #5 WindowsXP on 10 Mar 2003 - 06:39

Like Microsoft would say, "Sure, you can run Linux(of all os' come on!) on the xbox".

#5.1 Fanon on 10 Mar 2003 - 14:41

Good point, and you'd still need a modchip to run WindowsXP.

#6 Admiral50 on 10 Mar 2003 - 12:03

Yeah exactly, do these people have the brain the size of a pea, or are they just trying to get themselves off on seeing their story mentioned everywhere?

#7 jb10fan on 10 Mar 2003 - 17:17

its your xbox..u paid for it..u do what u want.

#8 Kusanagi on 10 Mar 2003 - 17:35

Just remember that developing a version of linux that doesn't need a modchip is not about "h4x0ring" the box: the executable has to be signed with a 2048bits hash that only microsoft has. It's not like the xboxlinux team will "come up with a version that doesn't need a hacked xbox", unless of course someone gets a supercomputer to sign it themselves (I mean, finding out the hash and the way it's meant to be signed). All they want microsoft to do is to get their xbe "as is" and sign it. Not gonna happen

PS: remember that the lindows guy will give these developers $100,000 for making it run on unmodified boxes. Sure, half of it will go to charity, but...

(1 reply) #9 Not-A-Shanty on 10 Mar 2003 - 17:36

There can be a mutual agreement here. Innovation promotes more innovation. To the Gentleman (or Gentlewoman) that says it is Just a "gaming system" has not taken the time to look into what MS truly has in plans for furture Generations of the Xbox. It is touted as a gaming system to bring in young kids and young adults, but really, if you look at it closely, it is in the infancy of an internet appliance. I use loss leaders to get you into my store or products as well. If you just buy the loss item when you come in, then good for you, but Microsoft is NOT losing money overall, licensing revenue alone makes up for this. It would benefit MS to jump on board, allow others to expand the unit with all control being under the MS umbrella. If you cannot see this is MS first attempt to make this and internet appliance, above and beyond a gaming system, it is your brain that is a PEA!

#9.1 Fanon on 10 Mar 2003 - 18:33

No, I have not taken the time to see what MS has plans for the XBox. Plans change. I'll pay attention when plans become more of a reality. But the future has not bearing on the current subject. Currently, the XBox is just a gaming system. It was built for one purpose - to play games on. While the XBox, at heart, is a cheap computer, it is not MS's intent for it to be so (if it was, it would have come with Windows pre-installed and run the latest PC game you just bought at Best Buy). The anti-trust accusation is baseless on that fact alone. [quote]but Microsoft is NOT losing money overall[/quote] I never said they were. I said console makers do not make money off the sale of the console. [quote]It would benefit MS to jump on board, allow others to expand the unit with all control being under the MS umbrella.[/quote] Financially, it would not benefit MS to jump on board. I've already stated (and it should be common knowledge by now) that companies do not make money on the console sale; they make it in the selling of games. Remove that final aspect and you have a money hole. Yeah MS makes more than enough to cover the loss, but MS's goal (as in any other company) is to make money.

(2 replies) #10 spIdeZ on 10 Mar 2003 - 17:41

If MS wanted an OS on Xbox, they would release Windows

#10.1 btallack on 10 Mar 2003 - 18:47

[neoquote=#10.0 by spIdeZ]If MS wanted an OS on Xbox, they would release Windows

[/neoquote] That would kick ass. I would love to play my windows games on an Xbox!

#10.2 Fanon on 11 Mar 2003 - 04:16

Why? Unless you're running a P2 333 with a Voodoo2, you wouldn't get any benefit except for the "awe" of being able to play your games on a console. I'll stick to my computer, thanks.

#11 Admiral50 on 10 Mar 2003 - 20:53

"If you cannot see this is MS first attempt to make this and internet appliance, above and beyond a gaming system, it is your brain that is a PEA!" Yeah but they would never let some other OS work on 'their' xbox. Linux is the one product that even holds any hope at all of threatening Windows and there's no way it's gonna happen. 'I want to make my internet browser, text editor, mp3 player and image editor work on an unmodded xbox...will you let me MS?' That's my point. My comment meant that they have the pea brain for thinking Microsoft would let them, for even bothering with all this crap. You obviously didn't understand who and why I was labelling the pea brains...

#12 walters17 on 10 Mar 2003 - 22:58

i dont want linux on my pc, and I dont want linux on my xbox, its pretty sad they think microsoft is being a monopoly over their product.

(1 reply) #13 TooPackShaker on 11 Mar 2003 - 01:38

bah, they should just hack better, and reverse engineer it otherwise its never gonna happen

#13.1 Fanon on 11 Mar 2003 - 04:18

Then they really get into trouble..........

(1 reply) #14 NeoMayhem on 11 Mar 2003 - 03:17

An xbox is a computer, linux should be alowed to run on it

A Gamecube doesnt have a hard drive, network card, x386 CPU, or any other computer parts, xboxs do

Sony has alowed people to use linux on the PS2, and you can buy a kit with a hard drive to do it

#14.1 jago6498 on 11 Mar 2003 - 05:26

[neoquote=#14.0 by NeoMayhem]An xbox is a computer, linux should be alowed to run on it

[/neoquote] Uh? No computer parts huh? Sorry to break the news to you buddy, but [b]ALL 3 SYSTEMS[/b] are built with computer parts. They are COMPUTERS!!! Just b/c the PS2 and Gamecube aren't built around Intel, AMD or VIA proccessors doesn't mean they are not built around computer components.

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