Neowin.net

yep, i agree with u fully

You don't have to buy the content. It is not required to complete the game. I managed to complete Oblivion without buying any of the add-ons. And as for NFS Carbon, that's just EA trying to get extra money. They're just cheats. I would never pay for a cheat anyway. I'd rather go through the game fair and square.

At least Project Gotham Racing 3 and Test Drive Unlimited are fair when it comes to add-ons. They charge a fair, if not good price for their add-ons.

Wow, sorry if we can't all afford uber-god machines like you obviously can.

thats the most idiotic statement i think i've read all day today here. congrats on the "neowin idiot crown" for today!
i can afford and do own a very awesome gaming rig that i keep updated every 2 months, but i still have a 360. so what do you say to me? your retarded post obviously doesn't apply to me coz i got both. you really should get out a little such that you may know how not to sound like an idiot.

I've done "REAL" gamin PC's for years now. From the sound of your ignorant statement, probably for a lot longer then you have even been alive (but I have found that immaturity exists in all ages, so I digress).

Consoles suffer from the following limitations when compared to a PC:
* Hardware can rarely be upgraded significantly from the base system.
* Gameplay does not include mouse and keyboard which some genres have developed around.
* Graphics are not as good when compared to the latest and greatest.

PC's on the other hand -
* Gamepad controllers are rarely used in PCs (and when they are they are a pain to setup and sometimes don't work properly...i've been through a lot of gamepads that's usefulness was limited).
* Limited genera selection.
* Limited developer support. Lets face it, trying to target a large range of hardware is difficult.
* New games come with new system requirements and in order to keep up you must spend big $$$ yearly to keep up.
* Background applications and excess program installs can slow down game performance. (Media Center 2005 plays games like crap, for instance when compared to just XP SP2).
* Developers seem to release beta games when they are up against deadlines and expect the user to download patches to fix problems.
* Overall more expensive then consoles (but this doesn't seem to be a problem for you).

Grow up.
-shad

Hah, are you serious? Do you know anything about PC gaming?
* Limited genera selection - complete crap. PC games have a wider range of genera than console games - strategy games, anyone?
* Limited dev support - also completely untrue. No idea what planet you're on.
* Upgrade costs - hardly. You don't need to buy new stuff all the time. I've not bought new stuff for about 2 years and I can still play the latest games at high spec. And it's not an uber PC and never was.
* "Media Center 2005 plays games like crap" - is nonsensical. Media Center is a program that you open, it is not always running, and has no effect on games. Background apps have little effect on gaming unless you're doing something stupid at the same time.
* Betas? Perhaps sometimes, but it's not a general rule. It's not as if console games are 'perfect' upon release these days either.
* PC games are CHEAPER than console games. Nuff said.

holy god your a true ****ing moron !

What the hell are you saying? They can do the exact same thing on a PC game. Idiots.

I 100% disagree with everything you just said except that PC games are CHEAPER (Most of them come in paper sleeves)! However, the hardware needs are higher in cost on the PC then on the console.

I have loved a LOT of PC games and I still play PC games. But when I goto the game store and look at the difference in selection between PC and different consoles it is significant. I have been extremely satisfied w/ my xbox 360.

Media Center is great for media center extensions available on the 360, but it adds to boot time and I have found that games performance have dropped since I installed it.

(And if you would have read my console list one of the things I listed was the fact that there were some specific generas available for PC that were not available for game consoles because of gameplay limitations).

But anyway, if you want to play on a PC then more power to you! There are some real gems out for the PC. My response was more geared towards putting the OP in his place and not necessarily make a strong case that consoles >> PC.

Last edited by Shadrack on 25 Dec 2006 - 15:25

you're*

i love the ironic use of moron.

You'll look back on this in about 6 months when you're going to have to go dump ~$300 into an operating system to be able to play any of the next-gen games on your PC. Believe me, it'll happen; in fact, it's already happening as early as Halo 2 for the PC, and it may happen even sooner than that. Keep your eyes open, it's going to hit you sooner than you think. Microsoft is screwing the PC base over just as hard, if not worse than these supposed "keys" on the Xbox Live Marketplace. This is only speculation so far on the Marketplace end anyways, the stuff that's going to happen with Vista is not speculation, it's fact; fact that Microsoft has already admitted to and announced.

Not to mention, even today, the Xbox 360 is more powerful than the cutting-edge PC technology. Come bragging when you're able to play next-gen games at 1920x1080 resolution with 4xAA and anisotropic filtering, and not have considerable frame rate issues. Whatever hardware your computer may have, it wouldn't even come close to comparing to the power the Xbox 360 is capable of dishing out. Go ahead, look up the Xbox 360 hardware -- there's nothing softcore about this system -- it has the best hardware money can buy, console or not.

I'd rather pay $20 for 1,600 Marketplace points and use them to unlock content already on a disk (who cares if it's already on the disk, long as it's not content I've seen yet) than to put up with the Windows-propaganda side of Microsoft. Yes, it's both Microsoft, but the Xbox team of Microsoft is willing to lose money to make their customers happy, unlike the Windows division of Microsoft.

"its a BIG deal the content IS on the original product which you already pay a great deal for"

By this same mindset I expect to see you complaining mightily that you have to pay more for Vista Ultimate which is on the same disk as Vista Basic.

This is not unfair.. and I am certainly no MS fanboi, before you try to go there. I can find plenty of reasons to dislike MS but this is not one of them.

It's not "unfair." They're offering you a product, and you have the option of paying for it or not paying for it. If you don't think it's worth $60 or whatever, then DON'T BUY IT. Plenty of other people will.

As for the content being already on the disc? Yeah, that happens sometimes. It helps out Core System owners a lot.

And it's not like there aren't hundreds of downloadable add-ons that AREN'T already on the game discs.

If you want to complain about EA doing something like charging 360 users (who already pay more for games) extra for features that are standard on the regular Xbox/PS2 versions - then I'm with you 100%. But that's a problem with EA, not Microsoft or the Live Marketplace. And EA should get beat up for pulling stupid crap like that.

And here is the fault in your reasoning: You get what you have paid for. Say you buy a race game. In this case you could get a F1 championship. As extra content you could also get NASCAR, F3, IRL etc. Those are already on the disk. Is this a problem. NO, it isn't. You bought the F1 tracks and cars. The fact that the other race classes are already on the disk speeds up downloading and saves disk space (That 20 GB hard disk would be full within a few games!!!.

Go do some research on all the bullcrap Microsoft is trying to pull over on Vista, then come talk to me; this doesn't even compare to what's going on over there, guaranteed. So you buy a game on a DVD with HD graphics that go up to 1080i resolution for $59.99. You spend a few weeks playing it to beat the single player campaign (or if it's a sports game, you spend a few weeks going through a career mode or something of that sort). Once that's done, you spend a month or so blasting people up online, or taking them on in a football, basketball, or baseball game, or if it's a racing game, you take them on in some races. You've already gotten nearly a month and a half of enjoyment out of it so far, for HD graphics and sound, for $60. You use some Marketplace points you've spent money on already to unlock some content already on the DVD you've not played yet -- I don't see what the big deal is here. It's not like they're saying "To play this game, you have to go out and spend $20 on a DVD exclusively for this game". You're using something you've already purchased to unlock content for this game you've not played with yet, not to mention, with that same package, you can use points to unlock stuff from many other games.

I'm not an Xbox fanboi, not by a long shot. Do I prefer the Xbox over other systems? Absolutely -- but I don't see anything wrong with what Microsoft and the developers are doing here.It's not like they're not also adding additional content after the game is release, because they've already done that, too.

Well, you call it a "20th century" mindset, I call it a conventional mindset.

Most commerce is a complete sale. There's no gimmick involved with licences and denying you access to parts of what they give you.

Normally, if you buy something incomplete, they disclose it openly. Model kits say "Requires paint and glue". Electronics say 'Batteries not included." Where's the sticker on the game box that says "$70 payment required for complete access to game?" You can bet they would NOT sell that game half as easily with an honest disclaimer to that extent.

No, you're wrong. The games aren't missing essential pieces as you seem to believe. There's no "missing batteries". It's complete as they sell it. They don't advertise the add-on material as included, whether it be on the box, in the literature, or anywhere else in the marketing. Having it included on the disc is merely a convenience so anyone who _wishes_ to purchase the extra material does not have to download hundreds and hundreds of megabytes of data in order to have it.

WARNING: EXTRA CONTENT AVAILABLE FOR THIS TITLE!

edit: That being said, I still think the market is getting WAY too expensive...

Your analogy does not work. "Batteries not included" - you buy batteries from a thrid party, and the product does not work at all without them. "Requires paint and glue" - models do not "require" paint, and glue comes from a third party and without glue, the model does not work at all.

Maybe the next time I go to the movie theater I should get coke and popcorn with the price of the ticket - that would be my idea of a "complete movie experience"? I didn't think so.

You have complete access to the standard content at purchase. You do not have access to extra content. No one forces you to buy either the standard or the extra content.

How is this different from Apple including incomplete versions of Quicktime with their OS? (Have to pay extra to enable options like "full screen playback" ).

After reading your post, that smiley doesn't seem to fit in with the content.

Actually, I am ****ed with the whole 30 different versions of Vista scheme.

On the one hand, they're making an expensive OS even more expensive, by hoping people will shell out $400 for the top-end version.

On the other end, they're also limiting customer choice by only offering a handful of flavours. If Vista sold in a base form for $100, and each of the individual line items you got with the higher versions was seperately priced, people could purchase a system suited to their needs. I understand, for example, that no version but the $400 one will support certain networking features *AND* media centre. But if I need those, yet don't want Aero Glass, I still have to pay for Aero Glass.

"Obsessive-compulsive bastards", followed by "nuts.gif". I thought it fit.

I would kindly ask that you stick with something that you know about and not post nonsense.

Show me where Vista Home Basic is more expensive than XP Home.

Show me where Vista Business is more expensive than XP Pro.

Oh wait that's right, they are the same price.

Also you mentioned limiting customer choice....

Have you not heard of the Vista Anytime Upgrade plan?

Let's say you buy Vista Home Basic or Premium, or Vista Business and you want to upgrade.

You can simply by purchasing the upgrade and you will get the other features and it will just unlock them right off the DVD you already have.

How hard is that?

Also the Home Premium Version includes Media Center in it by default, what networking features does it not have that you need?

Two differences:

1. Items in meatspace are generally not sold in a function-reduced manner with the attempt to tease you into paying to unlock it.

2. They generally won't be DMCAing your ass if you try and decripple it.

The fact of the matter is, costs for gaming is going up. I'm amazed it stayed where it was for so very, very long. $40-$50 has been the standard price for.. oh.. hmm.. 15+ years now? It's a bit unrealistic to think prices would stay that way forever, especially with the cost of development so much more now than back then.

It's not as simple as game costs increase, put the prices up. There's a fairly simple economic principle of prices go down, more people buy the product.
If 360 games were £20/25 I might get more than one a month. A bit less than the amount of dvds I would get.
The price they are now, they are just beyond the point where I impulse purchase. I would think it's the same for 95% of gamers. So I only get games I really want and can put time into. That's means I only get a game every few months.
If game publishers, and the industry in general, took some risks they might find they can bring in boat loads more customers, who are more willing to take a risk. All they have to do is price their products accordingly.
At the moment, since I have PGR3, PGR4 is going to have to be a BIG step above for me to want to buy it. I don't need it. If it was £25 as opposed to 40, I probably wouldn't hesitate.
That's why they are having to deceive and wring out pennies from their customers. Because they have less customers than the production costs necessitate. They can't get more money out of the same number of customers for the same type of product. It just doesn't work. THEY NEED NEW BLOOD.
The cinema industry has gone the same way. Corporate greed doesn't understand, "profits slip due to higher production costs = raise prices" that's the only way they see to fix it. But it just leads to decline.

Unfortunately I think you are in the minority, There are plenty more people who will buy anything just because it's new. Not that I don't disagree with your principles, but the target market is not really geared towards your view.

I'm very certain that none of the Oblivion add-ons were on the disk, or at least not on the disc in their complete forms. I think the person who posted this story on Neowin embellished it by mentioning Oblivion - which is never quoted in the original forum post.

That would never be the case, when you look at copyright and all the other mumbo jumbo that goes into licensing agreements. Even if you have a copy of ANYTHING on a piece of media, you are still just paying for the use of it. It always will be, and has been this way for many years.

'It will always be'.

I doubt it.

The entire content industry basically lives on a blessing provided by the state. Without copyright to ensure they're the only source of a given content item, there is really nothing to allow them to dictate terms.

I fully expect to see nations, when it becomes politically expedient, to try cancelling their copyright laws. I'd expect it first in third-world states which have less to lose (small or nonexistent internal content industry) and much to gain (improved quality of life caused by free or nearly-free access to content)

"I expect all content on that disc to be my property."

Sorry to inform you, but your expectations are a bit out of step with reality. In the first place, the *contents* are normally not your property to start with. The physical media, yes, but not the contents. Secondly, the game developer has every right to distribute any of their content in any way they choose. What you are saying is that if you buy a demo game, for $1, that also happens to have the full version on it is that you should also be entitled to that full version game since it is contained on the disk. Same scenario, just a different ratio of $$ to content bought.

You really should change your thinking. You're buying the game, you can play the game. You've gotten everything you've paid for. Also, while you physically own the disc, you don't physically own the game. It's still owned by the content providers. You're essentially buying a license to play the game as they see fit. So you don't own the content... they do.

This is just another method of distribution people. Another poster hit the nail on the head. Think of it from the developers standpoint. Say you've got this extra content that you want to release. How would you want to release it? If you put it on the disc you're eliminating any cost related to distribution. It's already delivered, the customer just needs to pay to unlock it. If you don't put it on the disc, then the consumer has to download the extras and now there's the added expense of the bandwidth to deliver the content. Who's going to pay for that? The consumer.

If anything we, as consumers, should appreciate this. It won't take up the limited space on our hard drives. And it should help to keep prices down. Oh and to those saying we're all MS fanboys... AFAIK Microsoft hasn't released any games that employ this technique. I'm writing this defense purely with Oblivion in mind. I'd surely agree with you naysayers if these unlockables somehow affected the game. But so far it doesn't at all. I have beaten Oblivion on the 360 and I got well over 70 hours of play out of the game... I've never purchased a single bit of content for the game. It was definitely worth the $60.

I think the bigger story here would be this... What does this do to Sony's argument that Blu-Ray discs are necessary in todays gaming environment. Yet here is a massive game, even after 70 hours I'm still finding new things, and they had enough room left over on a wimpy old DVD to include a ton of extras. Now it's even harder to defend the need for Blu-Ray in terms of gaming.

i can't believe people are ignorant enough to be outraged by these actions.


it's been predicted this sort of thing would happen more than 7 years ago.


if you don't like it, tell the company so.


but don't feign ignorance about what belongs to you and what doesn't, because the games and software never "belong" to you. you buy the right to use them.


that the software may already be on disc doesn't really mean anything one way or the other.


if it were malware or spyware you were paying to activate that was already on disc(or paying to deactivate as it were), the outrage would be justified.

I'm defending it because you're not spending $20 each time you want to unlock some content; you're spending $20 to buy 1,600 Marketplace points, and you use those points to unlock additional content on that disk you haven't played yet; thereafter you can use remaining points to download content for other games as well.

If you were spending $20 each time you wanted to unlock some content for a game, then yes, it would be right to throw a fit about this, but that's just the opposite of this. Not to mention, there is actual downloadable content for these games in addition to this stuff.

The Xbox Live hard drives are only 20 GB. You don't have access too hundreds of gigs of storage like you do on PCs, so they're probably doing this partially due to the limited storage space available on the Xbox 360. Hopefully they'll make bigger HDD's in the future and make an adapter where you can link multiple HDD's together, or transfer data from one drive to another so you can switch to a bigger drive.

I'm defending it because you're not spending $20 each time you want to unlock some content; you're spending $20 to buy 1,600 Marketplace points, and you use those points to unlock additional content on that disk you haven't played yet; thereafter you can use remaining points to download content for other games as well.

If you were spending $20 each time you wanted to unlock some content for a game, then yes, it would be right to throw a fit about this, but that's just the opposite of this. Not to mention, there is actual downloadable content for these games in addition to this stuff.

The Xbox Live hard drives are only 20 GB. You don't have access too hundreds of gigs of storage like you do on PCs, so they're probably doing this partially due to the limited storage space available on the Xbox 360. Hopefully they'll make bigger HDD's in the future and make an adapter where you can link multiple HDD's together, or transfer data from one drive to another so you can switch to a bigger drive.

It should be a pay once system, so once you bought it you should be able to re-download it again for free but I haven't tested that out myself (I'd assume there is a list of everything you downloaded/bought stored in your profile information on MS's Xbox Live servers somewhere)

Live does not have this problem. Everything you buy is tied to your Live account and for most items (there are exceptions like rented movies), you can download them again as many times as you want.

As said above, a record is kept of everything you download and you can download pretty much everything again (on any console - as long as it's with your account).

As Dave and Brandon said, you have the right to re-download everything you purchase from the marketplace. Next time you are there, make a note of the tick/check marks next to content you have downloaded previously. If any of this content is "paid for", then you can get it again for free.

The content of this post is locked.

Last edited by JadeHare on 27 Dec 2006 - 12:04

There was not such like a extra or add-ons option where it can be found in the original packager, they are LOCKED FEATURES not addons.

There are a "little" differences into "buy a unlock" and to "buy a extra", one is where you can found it and second is the cost. MS (and pals) not only are selling a unlock feature like a extra, also giving a high cost for it.

The license is for the whole cd/dvd?.. YES, OF COURSE. Otherwise the store are giving (and selling) unlicensed material together with licensed material.


It's the same to sell a music cd of the Elvis with a hidden tracks of The Beatles and sue everyone that listen this hidden tracks because they don't paid for it.

Wrong my friend. Music is not covered by a license agreement that you have to agree to in order to listen. Software is covered by a license. You do not buy the software, you buy a license to use the software. You have rights to use the software the license says you do. Since the extra content is not covered by the license you are not legally allowed to use it without getting an additional license.

I got that impression as well.

That game was canceled / no longer being developed.
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6162566.html

Not really CH, read up my friend

The other alternative would be to have not included it on the disk and force everyone to download the entire dungeon, possibly weighing in at 200mb+. It still would have cost the same, or possible more to cover bandwidth costs. The method they chose gives the exact same end result, but saves everyone 200mb+ bandwidth usage and hard drive space. People should be thanking them, not insulting them. But most people don't have a grasp of how software is licensed so ignorantly hurl abuse at Bethesda when it isn't warranted.

Now, if they are charging for things on the 360 that are free to other platforms, then that is something to rise up in arms against.

morrowind has pay to play add ons exactly like oblivion.