Linus Torvalds on NVIDIA's non-Linux Optimus support: "F*** you"

How does Linux creator Linus Torvalds feel about NVIDIA? He's not shy about giving his opinion about the graphics chip maker, who has so far not released any official Optimus support for the Linux platform. In a recently posted video on YouTube, Torvalds talks to a group of students in at Aalto University in Finland. Responding to a student's question about trying to get Linux running on her Optimus laptop with a NVIDIA-based graphics chip, Torvalds turns directly to the camera and says, "NVIDIA, F*** you", while also giving the camera a well known gesture with his middle finger.

The Q&A exchange, which starts at the 48:10 mark in the video, has Torvalds state that NVIDIA is "the single worst company we've ever dealt with". He also says that NVIDIA's attitude toward Linux is odd since it sells its Tegra mobile chips in a lot of Android-based smartphones and tablets; Android has some of its roots in the Linux OS. However, he seems to also understand that NVIDIA isn't going to change its position toward Linux, saying, "We can't do anything about it, but it's life."

While he's not saying that "other companies are perfect either", Torvalds does say that NVIDIA has turned out to be "the exception rather than the rule" when it comes to Linux support from other businesses.

Via: Reddit
Source: Aalto University YouTube video

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Windows is only good for gaming everything else Linux is superior. If it wasn't for the games I doubt anyone would even use Windows.

Daniel_Pooh said,
Windows is only good for gaming everything else Linux is superior. If it wasn't for the games I doubt anyone would even use Windows.

No. I have multiple BSD and Linux installations that I use daily, and for my uses it's balls for a desktop. Windows 7 (hell even OSX, and I don't like OSX) is much more pleasant and efficient to work with, and it's got nothing to do with gaming. If they come up with a DE that actually works well that'll be a different story, but right now... no.

Daniel_Pooh said,
Windows is only good for gaming everything else Linux is superior. If it wasn't for the games I doubt anyone would even use Windows.
Which is why Linux is the desktop OS of the business world.. No, wait, it's the opposite of that isn't it.

I don't understand how NVIDIA has virtually non existent support according to some people here. Granted, I'll agree about optimus, but as far as standard desktop cards they pretty consistently update their drivers. I can't say I've ever had a problem with their desktop drivers. I can't say the same about AMD though.

lunarx3dfx said,
I don't understand how NVIDIA has virtually non existent support according to some people here. Granted, I'll agree about optimus, but as far as standard desktop cards they pretty consistently update their drivers. I can't say I've ever had a problem with their desktop drivers. I can't say the same about AMD though.

So what problems have you had with amd drivers? They had problems like years ago and you still keep b*tching about it. My cards have sit in my PC since January, had 3 restarts in that time and never did the catalyst crash. F*ck off fanboy.

well it seems like there are two REAL players in graphic cards. Nvidia and AMD. why not support linux? seems pretty stupid when steam will be brought to linux soon. but then I guess Nvidia and AMD will care then.... right?

ChrisJ1968 said,
well it seems like there are two REAL players in graphic cards. Nvidia and AMD. why not support linux? seems pretty stupid when steam will be brought to linux soon. but then I guess Nvidia and AMD will care then.... right?

AMD supports Linux - they provided 100+ page document on the hardware specifications for their hardware but the programmers are too lazy to actually properly implement the features. When there is no specifications there is whining about the lack of them but when provided you see a complete lack of programmers willing to actually write the drivers.

See he is just a geek no more than that, he is not Bill or Jobs. one of reason why Linux never make at same level as Windows or OSX

sinis said,
See he is just a geek no more than that, he is not Bill or Jobs. one of reason why Linux never make at same level as Windows or OSX

Every os has it's rough points. Windows and OSX all had that and they matured into something half decent. Give Linux a chance,and perhaps, one day, it will come true. Steve Fail Jobs Made apple greedy and restrictive. He could have fixed it but he didn't. Bill at least didn't make that mistake and many respect him for that and more.

sinis said,
See he is just a geek no more than that, he is not Bill or Jobs.

Linus actually wrote the Linux kernel from scratch. Unlike Gates and Jobs, who just bought theirs from other people, or got others to write it for them. His contributions will go down in history while Gates and Jobs will be forgotten capitalists.

sinis said,

one of reason why Linux never make at same level as Windows or OSX

Linux is used on more devices than Windows and OSX combined. And the same kernel, not distinct forms for different devices.

simplezz said,

His contributions will go down in history while Gates and Jobs will be forgotten capitalists.

Thanks for a good laugh! Even the beggar in my third world country knows who is bill gates. I dint even knew who is this linus guy until i was reading an article about linux.

soldier1st said,
Every os has it's rough points. Windows and OSX all had that and they matured into something half decent. Give Linux a chance,and perhaps, one day, it will come true. Steve Fail Jobs Made apple greedy and restrictive. He could have fixed it but he didn't. Bill at least didn't make that mistake and many respect him for that and more.

I don't think you know what the heck you're talking about - I suggest you look at the decisions made regarding open standards and then extending them so that they're deliberately incompatible with other operating systems as to ensure that heterogeneous environments cannot exist in the enterprise or make them incredibly complex just to get them to work. If you think that Apple is more restrictive than Microsoft then it is clear that your understanding of IT is incredibly shallow.

soldier1st said,

Every os has it's rough points. Windows and OSX all had that and they matured into something half decent. Give Linux a chance,and perhaps, one day, it will come true. Steve Fail Jobs Made apple greedy and restrictive. He could have fixed it but he didn't. Bill at least didn't make that mistake and many respect him for that and more.

MS and Apples restriveness allowed them to have a guarunteed user experience. You cannot make any guaruntee as how any distro of linux operates. They can be so wildly different you can consider them all different operating systems. There's something called 'branding'. You can't do branding with linux because you can't promise the same experience twice.

seta-san said,

they have had drivers for a long time. they just don't make them open source . This has Linus puckering up his ass so hard he could turn his turds to diamonds.


Hmmm. I see. Well then, I'm pretty sorry for him. It's not like Nvidia is forced to release an Open Source code. They like to protect their Intellectual Property against thieves.

Jose_49 said,
I lol'd pretty hard after seeing this:

Download Nvidia GeForce 302.17 Driver for Linux

http://news.softpedia.com/news...iver-for-Linux-276049.shtml

Try not to hurt yourself.

This has nothing to do with a company releasing closed source drivers, it has to do with releasing hardware specifications so that open source drivers can be created at zero cost to the manufacturer. Intel and AMD have both done this and you don't see them boarding up the windows and doors do you?

kenboldt said,

Try not to hurt yourself.

This has nothing to do with a company releasing closed source drivers, it has to do with releasing hardware specifications so that open source drivers can be created at zero cost to the manufacturer. Intel and AMD have both done this and you don't see them boarding up the windows and doors do you?


Definitely not. Thanks for clearing up

Ubuntu is such a great os... far more convincing than windows 8 at the moment, if more games where on it (emulators are already running more or less ok) it would be my entertainment OS while windows would be my working os...

Arceles said,
Ubuntu is such a great os... far more convincing than windows 8 at the moment, if more games where on it (emulators are already running more or less ok) it would be my entertainment OS while windows would be my working os...

+1 bring more gaming to LINUX and you will see more people use it!

th3r3turn said,

+1 bring more gaming to LINUX and you will see more people use it!


Winbloz 8 in it's current form is gawd awful. Perhaps this is what Linux needed to get ahead.

soldier1st said,
Winbloz 8 in it's current form is gawd awful. Perhaps this is what Linux needed to get ahead.

Nah, they really need to get a better desktop environment going first. Windows 8 tanking isn't going to magically make everybody want to throw all their software away and switch.. much more likely to stick with 7 or XP or if they do switch, OSX.

Just my own opinion of course, but right now the desktop environments are going downhill. You got Gnome 3, which has some serious "WTF?" issues with the design. You got Unity, which is "WTF?" on steroids, just read over how much love it's getting at the Ubuntu forums. You got XFCE which feels like an OS from the late 90s. You got Mate, which is nice if you hated where Gnome is going, but again, a time warp. You got KDE which feels like it's trying too hard to copy Windows, but yet throw a bajillion extras in there, again just because. You got a few others in the miscellaneous category, but they're typically semi-usable and under-supported, at best. And that's not covering all the little inconsistencies and problems, bugs, too many API's and libraries to contend with (hey lets make sound API #194814 just because we can), etc etc. It's totally possible to make a quality desktop on a *nix base, OSX easily proves this, just would love to see a Linux DE do the same.

Arceles said,
Ubuntu is such a great os... far more convincing than windows 8 at the moment, if more games where on it (emulators are already running more or less ok) it would be my entertainment OS while windows would be my working os...

That's definitely an area where GNU/Linux needs attention (on the desktop at least). Fortunately, the trend emerging is for AAA engines and games to be cross platform. That's why Unigine's Oil Rush came to Linux at the same time as the Windows and OS X version. If combined with the news about Steam and the Source engine, I think that issue is resolving itself.

the problem with Nvidia is that they don't play ball at all, especially if they don't get to make money from it, typical. Fine Nvidia, don't want to make the effort to support a booming community? Cool, atleast have the decency to provide documentation on making proper drivers..... for those who want to do it for the good of the community, not the bottom line of someone's balance sheet/

Don't buy from nVidia then! Problem solved. Use something supported. AMD will be happy to do business with you 1% Linux desktop users.

TruckWEB said,
Don't buy from nVidia then! Problem solved. Use something supported. AMD will be happy to do business with you 1% Linux desktop users.

Except that the Linux kernel is used in Phones, Tablets, Supercomputers, TV's, and many other devices. All of which use graphic chips. AMD is now the preferred GPU maker for Linux. The state of the open source driver is actually very good now thanks to AMD's commitment to FOSS. Nvidia will suffer in the end.

And I'll bite even though I know you're trolling with the 1% remark. It's not 1% on the desktop. It's far far higher than that. Probably around 10% or more, and growing year on year. Windows on the other hand is losing market share year on year.

Ubuntu alone is expected to ship on 5% of all PC's next year. So carry on mocking Linux, because frankly, your insults have no substance since it's the most widely used Kernel and OS that's ever existed.

simplezz said,
And I'll bite even though I know you're trolling with the 1% remark. It's not 1% on the desktop. It's far far higher than that. Probably around 10% or more, and growing year on year. Windows on the other hand is losing market share year on year.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
And that's on a "tech" site, to expect those Linux numbers to be above the norm. 5%.. So ya, I'll carry on lol'ing at Linux, it's a niche market, always has been, and will be for the foreseeable future.

simplezz said,
Except that the Linux kernel is used in Phones, Tablets, Supercomputers, TV's, and many other devices. All of which use graphic chips. AMD is now the preferred GPU maker for Linux. The state of the open source driver is actually very good now thanks to AMD's commitment to FOSS. Nvidia will suffer in the end.

And I'll bite even though I know you're trolling with the 1% remark. It's not 1% on the desktop. It's far far higher than that. Probably around 10% or more, and growing year on year. Windows on the other hand is losing market share year on year.

Ubuntu alone is expected to ship on 5% of all PC's next year. So carry on mocking Linux, because frankly, your insults have no substance since it's the most widely used Kernel and OS that's ever existed.

Intel's graphics are pretty damn good these days too - Mesa 8.0.3 supports OpenGL 3.0, the performance of the 4000 HD for the vast majority of people is more than enough to run what ever applications thrown at it.

The biggest thing that needs to be addressed is Xorg which is being done now with Wayland - a display technology that is built form the ground up as a first class linux technology which takes advantage of all the features provided by Linux such as power management, graphics memory management etc. etc. Hopefully we'll see in the next 2 years Wayland replace Xorg and provide the sort of improvement that moving away from HAL towards udisk/upower/udev has provided in the area of hardware detection and configuration.

simplezz said,

And I'll bite even though I know you're trolling with the 1% remark. It's not 1% on the desktop. It's far far higher than that. Probably around 10% or more, and growing year on year. Windows on the other hand is losing market share year on year.

Ubuntu alone is expected to ship on 5% of all PC's next year. So carry on mocking Linux, because frankly, your insults have no substance since it's the most widely used Kernel and OS that's ever existed.


OMG, next year is the Year of Desktop Linux!

korupt_one said,

on its way out compared to what, you sniffing too much glue.

Windows has been losing market share every year for the last decade. It's a pretty gloomy forecast for Microsoft, especially since the desktop market is also in decline.

simplezz said,

Windows has been losing market share every year for the last decade. It's a pretty gloomy forecast for Microsoft, especially since the desktop market is also in decline.

How people like to oversize things when it fits their own wishes.

simplezz said,

Windows has been losing market share every year for the last decade. It's a pretty gloomy forecast for Microsoft, especially since the desktop market is also in decline.


Yeah, they're definitely dying, considering they only hold about 90% of the desktop martket - not even mentioning the Windows Server marketshare....

joint said,
amd is making better video cards than nvidia now anyway. nvidia is on its way out.

I guess you haven't seen nvidia's new line that's been proven to blow amd out of the water.

Zeet said,

I guess you haven't seen nvidia's new line that's been proven to blow amd out of the water.

Nvidia's support of the Linux FOSS driver is non-existent. That's not going to win the hearts and minds of developers or users.

simplezz said,

Nvidia's support of the Linux FOSS driver is non-existent. That's not going to win the hearts and minds of developers or users.

I can assure you, nVidia wouldn't even notice if none of them ever bothered with nVidia products again. They will be quite happy to stick to selling to Windows and Mac users who dominate the market.

Ryoken said,
I can assure you, nVidia wouldn't even notice if none of them ever bothered with nVidia products again. They will be quite happy to stick to selling to Windows and Mac users who dominate the market.

Even nVIdia on Mac OS X royally sucks when it comes to drivers. Reminds me of a benchmarking done between an older Radeon GPU compared to a newer nVidia GPU - the Radeon bet it hands down. Who cares what nVidia promises because the real test is when the rubber hits the road and we see the numbers - to be perfectly frank the numbers aren't that supportive of nVidia's claims about superiority.

Why doesn't Linus go build his own card he has no business criticizing others. All these hardware companies are trying to make money. If doesn't make sense to make a proper driver they are not going to do it. Even on windows creative labs had a bad driver for Windows Vista. They didn't do it until a long time.

Melfster said,
Why doesn't Linus go build his own card he has no business criticizing others. All these hardware companies are trying to make money. If doesn't make sense to make a proper driver they are not going to do it. Even on windows creative labs had a bad driver for Windows Vista. They didn't do it until a long time.

The issue isn't that - watch the whole f-cking video instead of making assumptions. The issue is the fact that nVIdia won't give the hardware specifications either under NDA or freely so then open source developers can create a clean room driver that supports their video cards. The issue is that - nothing to do with whether nVidia writes the drivers themselves.

Mr Nom Nom's said,

The issue is the fact that nVIdia won't give the hardware specifications

Which is their right, considering they spent quite a lot of money on their hardware design...

Mr Nom Nom's said,

so then open source developers can create a clean room driver that supports their video cards.

Wait a moment, you don't need a specification for a clean room design! Actually the idea of clean room design is that you don't know the real specification - that's exactly what happend with BIOS in the early days of the IBM PC!

Melfster said,
Why doesn't Linus go build his own card he has no business criticizing others. All these hardware companies are trying to make money. If doesn't make sense to make a proper driver they are not going to do it. Even on windows creative labs had a bad driver for Windows Vista. They didn't do it until a long time.

And Windows fans blamed creative for that. And the words used were not any better than the words used by Linus.

Why Linux fans should not have the same rights to complain about the company giving them bad support ?

LaP said,
And Windows fans blamed creative for that. And the words used were not any better than the words used by Linus.

Yes, but Creative advertises their products as being Windows compatible.

MFH said,
Which is their right, considering they spent quite a lot of money on their hardware design...

Which is a load of crap because AMD and Intel both provide specifications for their hardware minus a few esoteric features that the open source community aren't really interested in.

Wait a moment, you don't need a specification for a clean room design! Actually the idea of clean room design is that you don't know the real specification - that's exactly what happend with BIOS in the early days of the IBM PC!

Which is again a load of crap - learn what a clean room implementation actually means. A clean room implementation means you have no source code, only the hardware specifications and the driver writers themselves write the code from the ground up without having access to any of the code that nVidia use for their own drivers. You seem to have a problem differentiating between source code and hardware specifications - how about you leave this site for a few years, get clued up on the basics of technology then come back because right now you're nothing more than a giant waste of space.

why would you expect NVidia or any company for that matter to spend good money on developing stuff for an OS that doesn't really have any market share. Why cant you Linux nuts make your own drivers.

korupt_one said,
Why cant you Linux nuts make your own drivers.

We already do. In fact the Radeon open source driver is rather good. But that's because AMD provides the specs for their hardware to Linux developers.

Nvidia does provide a proprietary binary blob, but doesn't support the open source driver developers at all. That's a big mistake, and Nvidia will suffer for it in the long run.

NVidia is about gaming and there isn't much of it on the Linux desktop. Sure you have to wait for the next version of whine and recompile your drivers etc... More trouble than it's worth

Riva said,
NVidia is about gaming and there isn't much of it on the Linux desktop. Sure you have to wait for the next version of whine and recompile your drivers etc... More trouble than it's worth

Unigine, Steam/Source, ID Tech 1/2/3/4.

as a linux user and nvidia user, i agree with linus, nvidia did a lackluster job, taking into account also that cuda on linux machine its a mess and too difficult to just install.

Fully understandable, trying to use Linux on my laptop can be an absolute bloody pain even for normal desktop use if I try and use HDMI out.

From an enduser's perspective I can understand it being frustrating with respect to no Optimus on Linux. There's an unofficially supported project that does turn the Nvidia GPU on and off but isn't perfect and is dependent on your laptop being popular enough to be supported (i.e. the m11x).

It is frustrating that, up to now, barring an official solution the only outcome for now millions of laptops with Optimus running Linux is to keep the laptop hot with both GPUs on all the time.

Can anyone that has a hint of understand of Linux, be at all surprised by the lackadaisical support that it receives from companies that depend on their IP?

Just to start out, to use a rather bad OS model like Linux to be the champion OSS operating system kernel and OS model would be laughable if it wasn't true.

If the world was going to design an OSS operating system technology, virtually every design concept would be the opposite of how Linux works.
(Monolithic, horrid version dependencies, non-binary parity, no driver API, insane concept of LKMs, and even with the 'duct tape', still stuck with traditional monolithic version/build issues. - All of these and more are the worst concepts for a 'collaborate' OS/kernel technology.)

Then there is the whole graphics nightmare of Linux, that literally FORCED both ATI and NVidia to create a proprietary layer just to get moderate functionality out of 2002 or newer GPU designs. Which they are both 'hated' for because they don't fully disclose the source code of how they bypass the crappy Linux frame buffer crap, and implement their LKM and non X based driver.

Next because of the 'proprietary' and lack of source code, there are major fights with distributions, users, and NVidia and ATI/AMD, because of GPL purity. Which is freaking beyond moronic that the LICENSING to FREE everyone is what continues to make Linux suck. Distributions and kernel literally are BLOCKING the ATI/NVidia LKMs because they are not fully disclosed open source and contain patented 'owned' concepts.

So even when Nvidia and ATI give Linux rather good drivers, by working around the versioning crapfest that is Linux, they become 'unholy' and the GPL and Linux religion either forbids their use or will let them be used and literally marks them as 'impure' drivers, giving them a flag of 'impure' if the system encounters a problem, which then distributions and kernel makers will often not investigate problems if the system has an 'impure' driver.

It is truly like watching a modern version of religious witch burning nuts and see a scarlet letter happen to OS drivers.

Maybe someday people will see that 'open' and 'free' are the opposite of what the GPL does by being extremely restrictive. Free is the opposite of restrictive. (Here is a hint, anytime a OSS or FOSS license has a restrictive set of 'requirements' this is not 'free' or 'open' use anymore.)

Go look up the politics of the GPLv2 or GPLv3 especially,which were so determined to strike at Microsoft and others, it literally tied the hands of developers or any non-open company to provide help or support to any GPL based project.

With the INSANE restrictions and requirements of the GPL, a MAJORITY of FOSS projects and even large parts of MOST Linux distributions actually violate the GPL without realizing it. (However, unless they have proprietary code in a driver/LKM, it doesn't get a big scarlet letter flag.)

After a bit of time fighting the GPU purity NUTS, that is when most educated people install Windows again and leave the crazy to the purist fools.

(And like most OS engineers I could on for hours about why the world needs to find a new OS technology and get behind it. We could use the good concepts from NT, and other OSes that are have far more modern design ideals and concepts and build on their multilayer and module based design concepts. Imagine no more version nightmares, and true object based communications and an OS that was designed for portability, unlike Linux.
*(Even NT was designed to be portable, and has one of the most advanced portability designs in history. We should at least work on an OS with this level of portability design, and quit screwing around with Linux.)

/rant off

thenetavenger said,
Typically long TheNetAvenger rant...

Many companies provide good GNU/Linux support, including, but not limited to, IBM, Intel, HP, and Samsung.

thenetavenger said,
Can anyone that has a hint of understand of Linux, be at all surprised by the lackadaisical support that it receives from companies that depend on their IP?/rant off

Mate, you're full of sh-t - both AMD and Intel have provided hardware specifications to the open source community free of charge with no NDA with the only things not provided open source are proprietary licensed technologies that they themselves cannot divulge - which as a side not the open source community really don't care about those features anyway (those features being video decoding offloading etc. which as one developer said would be a lot more fruitful to improve decoder efficiency than hide it behind some proprietary GPU offloading technology). If AMD and Intel can do it then nVidia sure as heck can do it too!

Neowin news reporters/editors:

Linus co-winning the Millenium Technology Prize aka. the "Technology Nobel" - Nope.
Linus saying "**** you!" - WE GOTTA POST THAT!

tiagosilva29 said,
Neowin news reporters/editors:

Linus co-winning the Millenium Technology Prize aka. the "Technology Nobel" - Nope.
Linus saying "**** you!" - WE GOTTA POST THAT!

I'd personally click on the **** You post before I would click on the other one.

tiagosilva29 said,

Go to the huge thread in reddit, several wallpapers were made available.

oooh yea. Just what I want. a huge picture of Linus Torvalds flipping the bird....I don't live in my parents basement...really I don't

I thought the whole thing with open source was that if you don't like what you've got, you can make it yourself. Why doesn't the open source community come up with a solution here instead of having Nvidia spend money and resources on it?

Enron said,
I thought the whole thing with open source was that if you don't like what you've got, you can make it yourself. Why doesn't the open source community come up with a solution here instead of having Nvidia spend money and resources on it?
The problem is a lack of documentation plain and simple.

As soldier1st said, Nvidia refuses to provide documentation for their hardware. The stupid thing is, they have it internally, but won't give it to the FOSS developers so they are forced to reverse engineer it, which is a very slow and tedious process. The net result being that the open source Radeon driver is much better because AMD provides said documentation for their hardware.

"I purposefully crashed my car and it doesn't work anymore, f*** you Honda"

Whoever is complaining about Optimus on Linux HAD TO OPT-OUT OF WINDOWS. An idiot.

_heracles said,
"I purposefully crashed my car and it doesn't work anymore, f*** you Honda"

Whoever is complaining about Optimus on Linux HAD TO OPT-OUT OF WINDOWS. An idiot.

Agreed; the chick knew that Linux didn't support it yet she still went and purchased the laptop anyway - why didn't she just buy a Lenovo laptop with Intel everything which would have been supported out of the box without any problems?

Because being a responsible consumer is hard. We have these "Walmart" folk as I like to call them, where they feel entitled to anything and everything. And instead of taking two seconds to use common sense, they'll sit and bitch at the employees at the store as if it's their problem they made a poor decision in their purchase.

linux will never make it on the desktop. Users won't put up with every computer being potentially different. They won't put up with compiling software or drivers or recompiling their kernel and editing settings file or even deal with the terminal in general.

seta-san said,
linux will never make it on the desktop. Users won't put up with every computer being potentially different. They won't put up with compiling software or drivers or recompiling their kernel and editing settings file or even deal with the terminal in general.

Because you totally have to do that for every single little thing you do. /s

SharpGreen said,

Because you totally have to do that for every single little thing you do. /s

users won't put up with the wildly differing interfaces that linux has and the amount of low level OS crap you have to do to add hardware. People already have a problem with the minor interface options between versions of windows. Imagine the difference between KDE and GNOME and every other X11 implimentation. They would just give up.

seta-san said,

users won't put up with the wildly differing interfaces that linux has and the amount of low level OS crap you have to do to add hardware. People already have a problem with the minor interface options between versions of windows. Imagine the difference between KDE and GNOME and every other X11 implimentation. They would just give up.


If companies were more open then that would not be an issue.

seta-san said,
linux will never make it on the desktop. Users won't put up with every computer being potentially different. They won't put up with compiling software or drivers or recompiling their kernel and editing settings file or even deal with the terminal in general.

You don't need to compile anything. Imagine if Windoz required compiling then i would see you complaining about that.

soldier1st said,

You don't need to compile anything. Imagine if Windoz required compiling then i would see you complaining about that.

yes i would. It's an unreasonable skill to expect out of normal users. Linux often times does require that skill set.

soldier1st said,

If companies were more open then that would not be an issue.

your clearly wrong. Linux is built on doing what ever the **** you want to do with it. It's why you can have linux to nothing but a command line terminal to some sort of propriatory cell phone interface to any number of X11 interfaces. The problems with linux are clearly rooted in it's design benefits. Linux has been, and likely always be, a geeks OS where most users will never use it outside of embedded devices.

seta-san said,
linux will never make it on the desktop. Users won't put up with every computer being potentially different. They won't put up with compiling software or drivers or recompiling their kernel and editing settings file or even deal with the terminal in general.

If you're doing that with a Linux distribution from 2012 then you're using it wrong.

01:01:00 a guy stands up talking about Nvidia. I have no idea if he works for Nvidia but interesting out how that came around.

ChuckFinley said,
I thought there was NVIDIA drivers :-S

There are NVIDIA drivers, but they don't support Optimus. Also, the drivers that they have released are closed source. The problem here is that NVIDIA is a business that is trying to protect its IP. Linus needs to get over it as NVIDIA is well within their rights to not release detailed documentation.

lunarx3dfx said,

There are NVIDIA drivers, but they don't support Optimus. Also, the drivers that they have released are closed source. The problem here is that NVIDIA is a business that is trying to protect its IP. Linus needs to get over it as NVIDIA is well within their rights to not release detailed documentation.

I totally agree. They don't have to if they don't want to.

lunarx3dfx said,
There are NVIDIA drivers, but they don't support Optimus. Also, the drivers that they have released are closed source. The problem here is that NVIDIA is a business that is trying to protect its IP. Linus needs to get over it as NVIDIA is well within their rights to not release detailed documentation.

How about the fact that you're full of crap - if AMD and Intel can provide documentation, guess what? Nvidia can do like wise - it is a cop out to say otherwise.

z0phi3l said,
I can only imaging what he has to say about AMD/ATI since nVidia have THE best Linux drivers available

He's not talking about how good the drivers are, but how hard the company is to work with in general.

oodee said,
what is it with the Linux community acting as if everybody on this planet ows them something.
^this.
I don't see why nVidia should spend lot of money for the little percentage of the linux users who are using optimus (how many of the 1% are using optimus???).

oodee said,
what is it with the Linux community acting as if everybody on this planet ows them something.

They don't owe us anything. We just want our platform supported. It's really not that hard to write a decent driver.

Terracotta said,

They don't owe us anything. We just want our platform supported. It's really not that hard to write a decent driver.


It's a simple business decision. For Nvidia it's just not worth it to invest the time and money to develop Linux drivers...

Why should Nvidia spent their time and money on writing software for a platform that's only got less than one percent desktop market share? if they want to write software for Linux it should be their choice not the other way around.

Anthonyd said,
^this.
I don't see why nVidia should spend lot of money for the little percentage of the linux users who are using optimus (how many of the 1% are using optimus???).

Nvidia would not spend a lot of money as you say. Every GNU/Linux distro already supports Open GL, it's juat a minor port considering that it would require simpler drivers than those in Windows.

oodee said,
what is it with the Linux community acting as if everybody on this planet ows them something.

which linux community? there are many, not just one. The linux communities do not act like anyone owes them anything.

Terracotta said,

They don't owe us anything. We just want our platform supported. It's really not that hard to write a decent driver.

It'll cost them more money to write the driver [ and keep them updated with new releases ] than they will make selling to Linux users. So it's simply a bad business decision to even bother with support.

They release drives for the OS's they support, the OS's their cards are INTENDED to be used with. Anything beyond that is not their problem.

Maybe I should demand mac drives from MS for Kentic, cause I chose to plug it into a Mac.. That's not their problem..

sanctified said,
Nvidia would not spend a lot of money as you say. Every GNU/Linux distro already supports Open GL, it's juat a minor port considering that it would require simpler drivers than those in Windows.
Source? Also if they release it officially they have to support it and to the future release too. If you think that it's free, then you are completely out of your mind.

I see his point but then again, since Linux is mainly used by programmers, shouldnt they be able to make their own? At least hack something to make it work? Its not one of the main OS's out there. Their not gunna support it when so many people who use it are tinkerers and the like. Let them make their own.

Now, on the same topic, it wasnt very professional of him but at the same time, **** it, let him air his opinion. And if you disagree, "**** you *insert name here*"

IrishEdg3 said,
I see his point but then again, since Linux is mainly used by programmers, shouldnt they be able to make their own?

Generally speaking, they can (and do), but Nvidia, like a lot of hardware companies, don't release the technical documentation for their hardware, so the drivers have to be reverse engineered, resulting in incomplete and outdated driver support.

IrishEdg3 said,
I see his point but then again, since Linux is mainly used by programmers, shouldnt they be able to make their own? At least hack something to make it work? Its not one of the main OS's out there. Their not gunna support it when so many people who use it are tinkerers and the like. Let them make their own.

Now, on the same topic, it wasnt very professional of him but at the same time, **** it, let him air his opinion. And if you disagree, "**** you *insert name here*"

Don't forget about IP laws. Sure, you may have a bunch of programmers who would love to rip apart the proprietary drivers to their heart's content. However, IP laws are preventing them from legally doing this. Even recently they ran into a sticky situation with S3TC being added to Mesa.

IrishEdg3 said,
I see his point but then again, since Linux is mainly used by programmers, shouldnt they be able to make their own? At least hack something to make it work? Its not one of the main OS's out there. Their not gunna support it when so many people who use it are tinkerers and the like. Let them make their own.

Now, on the same topic, it wasnt very professional of him but at the same time, **** it, let him air his opinion. And if you disagree, "**** you *insert name here*"


Linux isn't used by just programmers. It is used by regular folks who may not be tech savvy. Years ago it was used by programmers.

**** Linux. Since the Linux community is full of "awesome" programmers why don't they make their own drivers

PmRd said,
**** Linux. Since the Linux community is full of "awesome" programmers why don't they make their own drivers

They are....

PmRd said,
**** Linux. Since the Linux community is full of "awesome" programmers why don't they make their own drivers

Seriously? Don't go there...
They would argue how the would do that if hardware companies wouldn't consider their designs - which are the results of years of research - to be IP and therefor not available to the average user...

PmRd said,
**** Linux. Since the Linux community is full of "awesome" programmers why don't they make their own drivers

That's part of the complaint. Nvidia don't provide the documentation that is needed for driver support, meaning that it needs to be reverse engineered, which ends up with buggy and outdated drivers.

PmRd said,
**** Linux. Since the Linux community is full of "awesome" programmers why don't they make their own drivers

Because their need schemes for direct hardware control.

PmRd said,
**** Linux. Since the Linux community is full of "awesome" programmers why don't they make their own drivers

You need the documentation to write drivers or anything. Without that, you need to do the best you can with what you got. If companies would give out the documentation or better yet, Write proper drivers for linux then this wouldn't need an issue.

bbfc_uk said,
How professional of him!

Yeah, I'd much rather have someone in a business suit write up a 1000 word press release letting me know the relationship with NVIDIA had be a little troublesome, and sugar coating the situation, whist spreading misinformation and clouding the facts.

He came out, cut the bull****, and gave it to them straight.

At the end he says, "people who get offended, deserve to be offended".

Mystiia said,

Yeah, I'd much rather have someone in a business suit write up a 1000 word press release letting me know the relationship with NVIDIA had be a little troublesome, and sugar coating the situation, whist spreading misinformation and clouding the facts.

He came out, cut the bull****, and gave it to them straight.

At the end he says, "people who get offended, deserve to be offended".

That's enough.

There's hardly any money to be made by supporting desktop Linux so many companies won't support the platform. It's just how things work.

.Neo said,
There's hardly any money to be made by supporting desktop Linux so many companies won't support the platform. It's just how things work.

Exactly. Who cares about Linux (on the desktop, I mean)?

King Mustard said,

Exactly. Who cares about Linux (on the desktop, I mean)?

I care! It has saved my files several times when Windows crashed or stopped working.

King Mustard said,

Exactly. Who cares about Linux (on the desktop, I mean)?

Not enough to people to make companies think of it as anything but what it is at heart: a hobby OS.

.Neo said,
There's hardly any money to be made by supporting desktop Linux so many companies won't support the platform. It's just how things work.

Steam is coming to linux along with a ton of EA games. You need graphics drivers to run games smoothly. Valve and EA obviously see the potential in it along with me and all the others who use it. I'll take Fedora over Windows 8, even Windows 7, anyday!

MFH said,
You two are part of a 1% community...

True, and I accept that, and the issues of non-support that come with it. However the point that Linus is trying to make (I think) is that Nvidia have been actively un-cooperative with Linus and the Linux community in general, but when Android got popular, Nvidia expects the Linux community to bend over backwards for them.

Terracotta said,

Steam is coming to linux along with a ton of EA games. You need graphics drivers to run games smoothly. Valve and EA obviously see the potential in it along with me and all the others who use it. I'll take Fedora over Windows 8, even Windows 7, anyday!

A ton of EA games eh? You might want to check your source. Last I heard they released HTML games to Ubuntus Software Center, noone said anything about further plans. http://arstechnica.com/gaming/...and-valve-plans-steam-port/

.Neo said,
There's hardly any money to be made by supporting desktop Linux so many companies won't support the platform. It's just how things work.

"That's right, **** our consumers on that platform, they bought our card but run Linux, 'tuff ****, you don't get support, now use Windows or OSX you pieces of **** were we can't get tons of cash from deals with Microsoft, Apple and a bunch of gaming companies."

Shouldn't they be supporting the consumers rather than the platform?

"But Linux is 1% of the community!"

**** you, they're paying customers like you and me, they deserve support. Just another example of how companies don't give a **** about the customer, they follow the money!

Tpiom said,

I care! It has saved my files several times when Windows crashed or stopped working.

I care also.

I am proud to be one of the 1%.It doesn't really matter how many people have the same opinion, especially after Linux ment Maya installation a week ago.

Mystiia said,

"That's right, **** our consumers on that platform, they bought our card but run Linux, 'tuff ****, you don't get support, now use Windows or OSX you pieces of **** were we can't get tons of cash from deals with Microsoft, Apple and a bunch of gaming companies."

Shouldn't they be supporting the consumers rather than the platform?

"But Linux is 1% of the community!"

**** you, they're paying customers like you and me, they deserve support. Just another example of how companies don't give a **** about the customer, they follow the money!


Get of your high horse! Does Nvidia even claim that their cards work with Linux? Or is it more like Linux users expect any company to release drives to support the OS of their choice?
I have news for you, a manufacturer is allowed to choose which OSes he supports!

Ask Creative! They for example choose NOT to support any OS on their main product ever since the release of Vista until this year when they released a new soundblaster product...

Your argument on paying customers is like if I would bit** about Apple 'cause they force me to use iTunes for every sh*tty litte thing that has to do with iOS-devices... You as a customer have the option NOT TO BUY hardware that's not supported by your OS, NOBODY forces you to buy Nvidia products!

Mystiia said,
**** you, they're paying customers like you and me, they deserve support. Just another example of how companies don't give a **** about the customer, they follow the money!

You should have done some research whether Linux is supported before buying hardware. By looking at your post however you probably lack the intelligence.

MFH said,

Get of your high horse! Does Nvidia even claim that their cards work with Linux? Or is it more like Linux users expect any company to release drives to support the OS of their choice?
I have news for you, a manufacturer is allowed to choose which OSes he supports!

Exactly they follow the money.

Who cares if they say they don't support Linux, even if one of their customers decides to run Linux, they should support them.

"Ohh but it's one customer."

Exactly they don't give a **** about you. Or your choice/freedom to run other systems.

And unfortunately they get away with this behavior because people like you spring to their defense. You defending a massive corporation which literally couldn't care less about you.

If you get a warm fuzzy feeling defending these companies then do so. But I'm not gonna watch them screw competition and customers. Or maybe I will watch and observe them do this because I'm one person, and I sures **** can't change how a massive organization operates.

People should vote with their wallets, but they don't give a **** either, as long as they're getting a good experience, **** everyone else.

.Neo said,

You should have done some research whether Linux is supported before buying hardware. By looking at your post however you probably lack the intelligence.

Personal insult about my intelligence. Thanks! That's a compliment coming from someone without any intelligence

If a customer is running Linux, they should support Linux. As they say, "the customer is away right", unless they're doing something we don't want them to.

.Neo said,
You should have done some research whether Linux is supported before buying hardware.

Totally agree, sound advice. If it's not Windows and if you didn't buy it from Apple, best do your homework and make sure the hardware is actually supported before installing another OS. I've had pretty good results myself with nVidia and BSD, but I also took the three seconds it takes to make sure my video card was supported first.

Mystiia said,
Who cares if they say they don't support Linux, even if one of their customers decides to run Linux, they should support them.

Where should they draw the line? This is a business after all dedicated to the bottom line, not some ideology. This isn't "evil behavior", this is how the world works. Free is great when you're not the one having to foot the bill for all the stuff that makes it work. If the Linux market share shoots up then yes, I'd be surprised if they didn't take notice and put the time into it. However it's been at ~1% since forever. Not exactly a whole lot of motivation.

Mystiia said,

Exactly they follow the money.

Who cares if they say they don't support Linux, even if one of their customers decides to run Linux, they should support them.

"Ohh but it's one customer."

Exactly they don't give a **** about you. Or your choice/freedom to run other systems.

And unfortunately they get away with this behavior because people like you spring to their defense. You defending a massive corporation which literally couldn't care less about you.

If you get a warm fuzzy feeling defending these companies then do so. But I'm not gonna watch them screw competition and customers. Or maybe I will watch and observe them do this because I'm one person, and I sures **** can't change how a massive organization operates.

People should vote with their wallets, but they don't give a **** either, as long as they're getting a good experience, **** everyone else.


Oh please just cut that crap! If you buy something that's not supported it's not the companies fault! Do you really believe a company should release drivers for a system they don't even support officially? ('cause if you do, you're just a plain fool...) A company has the right to decide which systems it supports - you have nothing to say that would change that fact!

Mystiia said,

If a customer is running Linux, they should support Linux. As they say, "the customer is away right", unless they're doing something we don't want them to.

So i want MINIX3 support for any hardware ever release 'cause I'm thinking about using it. Following your logic I have the right to demand that any hardware manufacturer releases drivers for MINIX3!

Mystiia said,
Personal insult about my intelligence. Thanks! That's a compliment coming from someone without any intelligence

Great comeback! If you're a 5-year-old that is. Try making your point without resorting to profanity next time.

Mystiia said,
If a customer is running Linux, they should support Linux. As they say, "the customer is away right", unless they're doing something we don't want them to.

No company is obligated to support Linux. Deal with it.

Max Norris said,

Where should they draw the line? This is a business after all dedicated to the bottom line, not some ideology. This isn't "evil behavior", this is how the world works. Free is great when you're not the one having to foot the bill for all the stuff that makes it work. If the Linux market share shoots up then yes, I'd be surprised if they didn't take notice and put the time into it. However it's been at ~1% since forever. Not exactly a whole lot of motivation.

Basically what I've been saying it's a greed and money game.

"This is how the world works." - So I have to like it, I have to play ball? **** that, just proves how bull**** the world actually is. They're limiting your choices.

Don't you foot the bill when you actually buy a product from them and this isn't just one person, and even if they was, they paid their share, at the very least they should get some support.

"Not exactly a whole lot of motivation" - Exactly, **** customers... We want more money!

Oh and their shouldn't be a line, the customer bought the product, they deserve support.

Terracotta said,

Origin will be ported to linux to compete with steam

Origin can't even compete with Steam on Windows. Origin is a POS. Period.

.Neo said,

Intelligent comeback. Just as intelligent as having to resort to using profanity in order to make a point.


No company is obligated to support Linux. Deal with it.

I swear, big deal, get ****ing over it.

It's not about supporting Linux! It's about supporting the customer!

I liked your comment btw, so you feel all warm and important

MFH said,

So i want MINIX3 support for any hardware ever release 'cause I'm thinking about using it. Following your logic I have the right to demand that any hardware manufacturer releases drivers for MINIX3!

You bought their product... Yes, you should have that right. If you're using whatever system you're talking about they should support you, the customer.

Mystiia said,

I swear, big deal, get ****ing over it.

It's not about supporting Linux! It's about supporting the customer!

I liked your comment btw, so you feel all warm and important


Not all companies support Linux, you get over that. If not you can go cry me a river and curse about it all you want.

MFH said,

Do you really believe a company should release drivers for a system they don't even support officially? ('cause if you do, you're just a plain fool...)

Okay I'm a fool, I agree with you, everything I've said here is wrong and everyone else is right, I'm so foolish for expecting the things I do, I believe the consumer should and deserves some rights. My thinking is insane.

Thank you MFH for clearing my mind and becoming more informed like you.

Mystiia said,
Don't you foot the bill when you actually buy a product from them and this isn't just one person, and even if they was, they paid their share, at the very least they should get some support.

The money I paid for a single video card probably doesn't even cover a few minutes of their engineering team's time. Again, it's all about doing your research before blindly buying something. Why stop at Linux? Suppose I take, oh I don't know, say FreeDOS and make a derivative of that. Should I go crying up a storm because they won't write a driver for me? Or is it just because it's Linux that people assume everybody's going to bend over backwards for them just because they think it's their God given right to get everything freely? All that stuff costs a crapton of money to develop. This is reality, not Star Trek. People still have bills to pay.

.Neo said,

Not all companies support Linux, you get over that. If not you can go cry me a river and curse about it all you want.

Dude this isn't about Linux! This is about you! The customer!

You deserve to have more choice and be supported by NVIDIA in whatever choice you make since you paid money for their product.

I'm sorry for caring about the customer.

Max Norris said,

The money I paid for a single video card probably doesn't even cover a few minutes of their engineering team's time. Again, it's all about doing your research before blindly buying something. Why stop at Linux? Suppose I take, oh I don't know, say FreeDOS and make a derivative of that. Should I go crying up a storm because they won't write a driver for me? Or is it just because it's Linux that people assume everybody's going to bend over backwards for them just because they think it's their God given right to get everything freely? All that stuff costs a crapton of money to develop. This is reality, not Star Trek. People still have bills to pay.

You're right, these companies shouldn't have to support their customers. Thank you Max for setting me on the right path.

If they can't make money, they shouldn't do it is what I think you're getting at. I feel so much better now you've enlightened me.

Mystiia said,
Dude this isn't about Linux! This is about you! The customer!

You deserve to have more choice and be supported by NVIDIA in whatever choice you make since you paid money for their product.

I'm sorry for caring about the customer.


I choose not to run Linux. If I did I probably wouldn't buy a NVIDIA card. It's that simple.

Mystiia said,
You're right, these companies shouldn't have to support their customers. Thank you Max for setting me on the right path.

Don't need to be so melodramatic. Read the box or check the web site. Does it say it supports Linux on it? No? Then sorry, move on. Should they be obligated to support something they never claimed to have supported in the first place? Suppose I buy an Apple Magic Trackpad.. should I go griping to Apple because as a paying customer I automatically deserve a Windows driver even though they never claimed to support it? (And yes I know it's doable with a few tricks, just using it as an example.)

Mystiia said,

You bought their product... Yes, you should have that right. If you're using whatever system you're talking about they should support you, the customer.

You can try to use hardware on an unsupported platform, but you shouldn't expect help from the company.

For instance, suppose I buy a drinking glass that I'd like to use as a measuring cup. Don't expect the manufacturer to spend time coming up with guidelines where you should draw lines for the 100 ml, 200 ml, 300 ml lines. If you want a measuring cup, buy a measuring cup - or spend your own time figuring out where to draw the measure marks.

Stop complaining about not doing your own homework before buying things.

Mystiia said,

Okay I'm a fool, I agree with you, everything I've said here is wrong and everyone else is right, I'm so foolish for expecting the things I do, I believe the consumer should and deserves some rights. My thinking is insane.

Thank you MFH for clearing my mind and becoming more informed like you.


Dude if you think that buying an product that is not designed for/supported on the OS you use entitles you to bit** around on how you have the right to demand official support for that unsupported use case than yes, you're a total fool...

.Neo said,
There's hardly any money to be made by supporting desktop Linux so many companies won't support the platform. It's just how things work.

He's not talking about desktop alone, which he clearly states. And the girl who asked the question said it best, "we're playing in the same sandbox" -- Android is a huge market for Nvidia, yet they give nothing in return. No one's forcing them, of course, but that's where the frustration comes from.

Mystiia said,

"That's right, **** our consumers on that platform, they bought our card but run Linux, 'tuff ****, you don't get support, now use Windows or OSX you pieces of **** were we can't get tons of cash from deals with Microsoft, Apple and a bunch of gaming companies."

Shouldn't they be supporting the consumers rather than the platform?

"But Linux is 1% of the community!"

**** you, they're paying customers like you and me, they deserve support. Just another example of how companies don't give a **** about the customer, they follow the money!

And that is why they are called business rather than charities, you're unfortunately going to have to either revolutionize the world or learn to live with it.

.Neo said,
There's hardly any money to be made by supporting desktop Linux...
But there is plenty to lose by not supporting it, and especially if Linux took off (hypothetical) and you're a year from having good support for it.

.Neo said,
There's hardly any money to be made by supporting desktop Linux so many companies won't support the platform. It's just how things work.

your comment is bs. There is money to be made, even on linux. Companies just don't want to put the effort into it. There are games and apps for linux which cost and users are buying them. You must be a linux hater or you would see the value Even on a free os. If you said the same thing about Winbloz then perhaps you could be right.

Mystiia said,

You're right, these companies shouldn't have to support their customers. Thank you Max for setting me on the right path.

If they can't make money, they shouldn't do it is what I think you're getting at. I feel so much better now you've enlightened me.


No **** corporations care about money. If Ferrari started giving away cars for free, people would love them to death and be singing praises from the rooftops. But they'll go bankrupt and then what?

98-99% of the desktop marketplace is supported by nVidia, so obviously they'll choose to support it. Linux is still around 1% so nVidia probably figures that it isn't worth spending the time and money to support, especially when there isn't much game support at all.

.Neo said,
There's hardly any money to be made by supporting desktop Linux so many companies won't support the platform. It's just how things work.

I suppose that's why Valve is bring Steam to GNU/Linux then huh?

-Razorfold said,

No **** corporations care about money. If Ferrari started giving away cars for free, people would love them to death and be singing praises from the rooftops. But they'll go bankrupt and then what?

98-99% of the desktop marketplace is supported by nVidia, so obviously they'll choose to support it. Linux is still around 1% so nVidia probably figures that it isn't worth spending the time and money to support, especially when there isn't much game support at all.

Your first paragraph... Are NVIDIA giving cards away for free? No, how does that paragraph apply?

Like I said, the customer bought the card, they deserve support. Like everyone else who commented you're arguing that the platform isn't large enough to bother with supporting, it shouldn't matter about that, they should be supporting customers, not a platform.

So if a customer who uses Linux bought Microsoft Office 2012 should he complain that MS doesn't support it? If I had a toyota and buy a nissan body kit like an idiot should I go an complain that the body kit doesn't work on my car? I mean I paid for it didn't I?

The majority of people who use linux know full well that nVidia driver support is virtually non-existent, so it's their fault for buying an nVidia card.

-Razorfold said,
So if a customer who uses Linux bought Microsoft Office 2012 should he complain that MS doesn't support it? If I had a toyota and buy a nissan body kit like an idiot should I go an complain that the body kit doesn't work on my car? I mean I paid for it didn't I?

The majority of people who use linux know full well that nVidia driver support is virtually non-existent, so it's their fault for buying an nVidia card.

Can he complain, yes, should he complain yes. Not that his complaints will get him anywhere, but hey. He's also got a solid alternative such as LibreOffice to fall back on. whereas the alternative 'drivers' aren't that great on Linux. Your second example doesn't apply here, it's like saying you bought an i7 CPU but have an FM2 motherboard, we all know to play the socket game. Plus you stated two companies, in competition, making the same products, nothing like what we're actually talking about.

Again it's strange to see people defending a company which is allowed to get away with such business practices of ignoring the consumer. Personally I'm beyond arguing at this point, I've said what I wanted to say.

Please point me to something that says companies should cater to 100% of the world. That's pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard. That's what I was getting at. The company names and product are interchangeable with anything.

A company can cater to whatever customer base it wants to. If nVidia only wants to support Windows and OSX, its their decision to make and its perfectly right. If you bought an nVidia product and expected it to work on Linux, it's YOUR fault for not doing the research beforehand. And so you return it. Which is why I said if you bought a nissan bodykit and expected it to work on your toyota corolla, it's your fault for doing so.

Voting with your wallet in this case would do jackshit, 99% of their profits and money come from Windows / OSX users and that's all they and their shareholders care about. If 20% of it came from Linux then yeah they'd probably support it. Want to change it? Go buy shares in nVidia.

-Razorfold said,
Please point me to something that says companies should cater to 100% of the world. That's pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard. That's what I was getting at. The company names and product are interchangeable with anything.

Voting with your wallet in this case would do jackshit, 99% of their profits and money come from Windows / OSX users and that's all they and their shareholders care about. If 20% of it came from Linux then yeah they'd probably support it. Want to change it? Go buy shares in nVidia.

What are you even talking about, I'm saying they should cater to 100% of their consumer base. I'm glad it's the stupidest thing you've ever heard, I wouldn't expect you to agree with me.

No-one purchases a product and expects it to work with Linux, we expect to purchase a product and then have it supported for. Like I said, even if one person used Linux, they should develop drivers for Linux, in essence, they should develop drivers for the customer, since they bought a card just like everyone else.

That scenario doesn't work here. You're talking about two competitors who both produce body kits which support their cars, NVIDIA aren't a competitor with Linux, nor do Linux produce GPUs. Maybe if NVIDIA produced body kits (Operating system) and if Linux produced cars (GPUs), then we could talk, but as it stands your example is terrible.

I was talking about all users voting with their wallets, no matter what system they're on. Like I said though, nobody would do this since you're getting the prime experience, so **** everybody else right?

Mystiia said,

Basically what I've been saying it's a greed and money game.

"This is how the world works." - So I have to like it, I have to play ball? **** that, just proves how bull**** the world actually is. They're limiting your choices.

Don't you foot the bill when you actually buy a product from them and this isn't just one person, and even if they was, they paid their share, at the very least they should get some support.

"Not exactly a whole lot of motivation" - Exactly, **** customers... We want more money!

Oh and their shouldn't be a line, the customer bought the product, they deserve support.


OK, you need to take some business classes because you apparently don't have a clue as to how the real world operates. Every action a company makes costs money. To make new drivers costs a ridiculous amount of money. What you end up with is basic supply and demand cost evaluation. If the cost outweighs the benefit then a smart company doesn't spend the money.

lunarx3dfx said,

OK, you need to take some business classes because you apparently don't have a clue as to how the real world operates. Every action a company makes costs money. To make new drivers costs a ridiculous amount of money. What you end up with is basic supply and demand cost evaluation. If the cost outweighs the benefit then a smart company doesn't spend the money.

I'm fine for the bull**** classes thanks, I'm already quite good myself.

The real World is full of BS like this, I know how it operates, I just don't like it and choose to voice my opinion.

Yes it does and for some people it costs a ridiculous amount of money to purchase the card.

Companies or 'smart companies' are full of ****, I pretty much know that already, it seems they've already managed to blind you into thinking they are right, and you are wrong.

-Razorfold said,
Please point me to something that says companies should cater to 100% of the world. That's pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard. That's what I was getting at. The company names and product are interchangeable with anything.

A company can cater to whatever customer base it wants to. If nVidia only wants to support Windows and OSX, its their decision to make and its perfectly right. If you bought an nVidia product and expected it to work on Linux, it's YOUR fault for not doing the research beforehand. And so you return it.

This is also called being a responsible consumer.

Mystiia said,

No-one purchases a product and expects it to work with Linux, we expect to purchase a product and then have it supported for. Like I said, even if one person used Linux, they should develop drivers for Linux, in essence, they should develop drivers for the customer, since they bought a card just like everyone else.

They have NO NEED to support it. If you bought it and expected it to be supported, you either didn't do your research or you're an idiot. That's it.

If you bought an nVidia card and found out it doesn't work right on Linux, guess what...go get it refunded, you usually have 30-60 days depending on where you live. Then go buy an AMD card. Problem. ****ing. Solved.

-Razorfold said,

They have NO NEED to support it. If you bought it and expected it to be supported, you either didn't do your research or you're an idiot. That's it.

If you bought an nVidia card and found out it doesn't work right on Linux, guess what...go get it refunded, you usually have 30-60 days depending on where you live. Then go buy an AMD card. Problem. ****ing. Solved.

Right, so the company has no need to meet my needs as a consumer, okay. And you're right, I am an idiot for thinking like this.

They should change that saying, "power to the people" to "power to the corporations".

I'm silly for thinking these guys should cater to the customer, and god-forbid the guys at the top of the chain may lose a couple dollars supporting other people aka their customers... That's tragic. To me, I see this as prove that these companies couldn't give a **** about you, and it seems other people don't give a **** about other people. Tragic.

Mystiia said,

Right, so the company has no need to meet my needs as a consumer, okay. And you're right, I am an idiot for thinking like this.

They should change that saying, "power to the people" to "power to the corporations".

I'm silly for thinking these guys should cater to the customer, and god-forbid the guys at the top of the chain may lose a couple dollars supporting other people aka their customers... That's tragic. To me, I see this as prove that these companies couldn't give a **** about you, and it seems other people don't give a **** about other people. Tragic.


You're so ***** it's already funny again! They do care about customers - in their TARGET AUDIENCE! Linux is NOT part of Nvidias TARGET AUDIENCE! It's as easy as that. If you can't cope with this fact, you're free to leave...

MFH said,

You're so ***** it's already funny again! They do care about customers - in their TARGET AUDIENCE! Linux is NOT part of Nvidias TARGET AUDIENCE! It's as easy as that. If you can't cope with this fact, you're free to leave...

Thanks for your compliment.

Target audience, sounds a lot like corporate BS too me.

So a company shouldn't have to adapt to the growing needs of their customers... Interesting...

I don't even use NVIDIA myself...

And no, they don't care. I mean why should they? When people like you are hurrying to their defense.

Mystiia said,

Thanks for your compliment.

Target audience, sounds a lot like corporate BS too me.

So a company shouldn't have to adapt to the growing needs of their customers... Interesting...

I don't even use NVIDIA myself...

And no, they don't care. I mean why should they? When people like you are hurrying to their defense.

Do not know much about business do you. They are in the business to make money (as is any business, which is why they are in business), they have employees to pay, salaries to meet etc. why would they pull off engineers to learn / write drivers for a platform that does not give them much in return? Does my core i7 motherboard have IDE or ISA ports / slots? No. By your reasoning they should support it. What if I want HP to support my 1991 Dot Matrix printer in Windows 7. They should by your reasoning. This is 100% your fault. If you go to autozone and get the wrong part for your car do you whine and complain to them too about it not fitting? You do your research, you get the right part (video card) for your system / OS / platform. Stop swinging from his nuts and realize that you made the mistake, not NVidia. It says right on the box what the card REQUIRES. If you go to a club and it says you must be 21, and you are 18, do you complain? No. The rules / requirements state you must be 21. Just as the box clearly says the OS the card is compatible with. Do you apply for jobs that have requirements you know nothing about? I would hope not, but then again, maybe you do, then complain when they don't hire you?

NVidia does grow with their customers, which is why they supported Windows Vista, Windows 7 and now drivers for Windows 8. They obviously do not see it financially beneficial enough to go into that market (Linux). And I would not expect any business to do something that is not to their advantage. A few years ago at QuakeCon someone asked John Carmack why they are not developing on Android, and his answer was that there just was not a clear financial benefit to doing so. Sure NVidia could waste thousands of man hours doing drivers for the zillions of different nix builds / branches, but why if it doesnt do anything for them, and they just waste money. I know you are going to say something to the affect of "support customers is wasting money?", sure if that customer bought a product that is CLEARLY not supported for the platform he / she is running. You run linux, they dont support it. End of story. I dont complain that my truck requires gasoline instead of diesel fuel, I bought it like that know that the truck required that fuel...

The moral of this story is, don't be an idiot, read the product requirements before you buy it.

Edited by KickassAMD, Jun 18 2012, 7:53am :

KickassAMD said,

Do not know much about business do you. They are in the business to make money (as is any business, which is why they are in business), they have employees to pay, salaries to meet etc. why would they pull off engineers to learn / write drivers for a platform that does not give them much in return? Does my core i7 motherboard have IDE or ISA ports / slots? No. By your reasoning they should support it. What if I want HP to support my 1991 Dot Matrix printer in Windows 7. They should by your reasoning. This is 100% your fault. If you go to autozone and get the wrong part for your car do you whine and complain to them too about it not fitting? You do your research, you get the right part (video card) for your system / OS / platform. Stop swinging from his nuts and realize that you made the mistake, not NVidia. It says right on the box what the card REQUIRES. If you go to a club and it says you must be 21, and you are 18, do you complain? No. The rules / requirements state you must be 21. Just as the box clearly says the OS the card is compatible with. Do you apply for jobs that have requirements you know nothing about? I would hope not, but then again, maybe you do, then complain when they don't hire you?

NVidia does grow with their customers, which is why they supported Windows Vista, Windows 7 and now drivers for Windows 8. They obviously do not see it financially beneficial enough to go into that market (Linux). And I would not expect any business to do something that is not to their advantage. A few years ago at QuakeCon someone asked John Carmack why they are not developing on Android, and his answer was that there just was not a clear financial benefit to doing so. Sure NVidia could waste thousands of man hours doing drivers for the zillions of different nix builds / branches, but why if it doesnt do anything for them, and they just waste money. I know you are going to say something to the affect of "support customers is wasting money?", sure if that customer bought a product that is CLEARLY not supported for the platform he / she is running. You run linux, they dont support it. End of story. I dont complain that my truck requires gasoline instead of diesel fuel, I bought it like that know that the truck required that fuel...

The moral of this story is, don't be an idiot, read the product requirements before you buy it.

A- considering you repeat most of what already has been said.

You make it sound like these companies spend fairly between employees and management, they don't.

I know a lot about business and just how corrupt it can be.

NVIDIA like you say don't see Linux beneficial financially, I agree. However they should support the customer, no matter the platform.

And I pretty much ignored the rest as you use examples which aren't actually what we're talking about.

FYI I don't run Linux either.

Maybe I'm just a moron, you're all right, I'm wrong. **** me for having a different viewpoint right?

most linux users do little more than command line operations anyway, so a generic video driver would likely satisfy them anyway.

The other problem with linux is that its fragmented - there are hundreds of variants, hell they even encourage you to "compile your own". What company in its right mind is going to try and support that? They'd go bankrupt overnight.

WickedScribbler said,

Not enough to people to make companies think of it as anything but what it is at heart: a hobby OS.

Really!. The Cern Haldron Collider, The Cosmos Super Computer created by Stephen Hawking in cooperation with Intel, Industrial Light and Magics render farm, along with many government agencies including the Federal Aviation Administration use LINUX!. The "hobbiest" operating system as you call it. For "mission critical work". Not OSX or Windows, but LINUX!. Shows your lack of knowledge!.

dvb2000 said,
The other problem with linux is that its fragmented - there are hundreds of variants, hell they even encourage you to "compile your own". What company in its right mind is going to try and support that? They'd go bankrupt overnight.

And who in their right mind would want to support the flop of Windows 8. With all it's touch screen tablet wannabe cr..p, that powers users care less about. Except your MS eco system dihards.

soldier1st said,
your comment is bs. There is money to be made, even on linux. Companies just don't want to put the effort into it. There are games and apps for linux which cost and users are buying them. You must be a linux hater or you would see the value Even on a free os. If you said the same thing about Winbloz then perhaps you could be right.

You need to learn how to read. Nowhere did I say there is "no" money to be made on desktop Linux, relatively seen just not that much. Why do you think companies don't want to put in the effort? Because there's not a whole lot to gain.

cybertimber2008 said,
But there is plenty to lose by not supporting it, and especially if Linux took off (hypothetical) and you're a year from having good support for it.

Did the iPhone become any less of a success because Apple didn't release iTunes for Linux? Probably not. Did Microsoft Office become any less of a success because Microsoft didn't release it for Linux? Probably not either. Adobe Creative Suite? Same story. So what is there to lose exactly? Not a whole lot.

If Linux were to "take off" within the desktop market it wouldn't happen over night. A year is nothing.

.Neo said,
There's hardly any money to be made by supporting desktop Linux so many companies won't support the platform. It's just how things work.

Hum nVidia is a chip maker. Of course nVidia is not making any money out of linux. It would be good customers support though and this is where nVidia is making its money.

Mystiia said,

A- considering you repeat most of what already has been said.

You make it sound like these companies spend fairly between employees and management, they don't.

I know a lot about business and just how corrupt it can be.

NVIDIA like you say don't see Linux beneficial financially, I agree. However they should support the customer, no matter the platform.

And I pretty much ignored the rest as you use examples which aren't actually what we're talking about.

FYI I don't run Linux either.

Maybe I'm just a moron, you're all right, I'm wrong. **** me for having a different viewpoint right?


So they should make a driver JUST for little ol' you, just because you could not read a box or their site for requirements? They should SUPPORT you on an UNSUPPORTED operating system just because you paid for their card? Yes you are a moron. Not because of a viewpoint, but because of thinking a company should support you when they clearly state our hardware works with X only. Then you buy the card expecting them to support Y just because you bought it? Come on man. I put diesel fuel in my truck and it quits running, should Ford fix it all for free because I am an idiot and cannot read? Nope. The fuel door CLEARLY STATES "Unleaded Fuel Only". But if I say eh, Ford should fix my **** for free just because I paid for this truck, I am not going to listen to their REQUIREMENTS.

It is not corruption, it is just plain business. Business is business. If you don't like it, Run an OS that they SUPPORT, or move along. Not NVidia's fault for not supporting Linux, they don't want too, oh well, your fault for running an OS that does not meet their requirements. Boohoo no one feels bad for you.

KickassAMD said,

So they should make a driver JUST for little ol' you, just because you could not read a box or their site for requirements? They should SUPPORT you on an UNSUPPORTED operating system just because you paid for their card? Yes you are a moron. Not because of a viewpoint, but because of thinking a company should support you when they clearly state our hardware works with X only. Then you buy the card expecting them to support Y just because you bought it? Come on man. I put diesel fuel in my truck and it quits running, should Ford fix it all for free because I am an idiot and cannot read? Nope. The fuel door CLEARLY STATES "Unleaded Fuel Only". But if I say eh, Ford should fix my **** for free just because I paid for this truck, I am not going to listen to their REQUIREMENTS.

It is not corruption, it is just plain business. Business is business. If you don't like it, Run an OS that they SUPPORT, or move along. Not NVidia's fault for not supporting Linux, they don't want too, oh well, your fault for running an OS that does not meet their requirements. Boohoo no one feels bad for you.

Who cares about ****ing operating systems, they should be supporting the consumer, not some other business (Microsoft).

Thank for your compliment again

Your example is terrible yet again, not going to even bother with it.

Business is business is corruption.

It is NVIDIAs fault for not supporting Linux... They don't support it, so it's there fault.

I'm not asking anyone to feel bad for me, I run Windows with AMD, I'm looking out for the interests of other people, clearly you couldn't give a **** and I respect that, it must be hard to be *that* ignorant.

All in all I'm happy just to argue with you, since your username basically sums up your personality, willing to bend over and let a business **** you in the ass while you defend them, hey If you enjoy that, power to you sir.

Mystiia said,
<snip>

Implying that they're corrupt for not supporting Linux is preposterous. They have a team of employees to look out for. You know what happens when times get hard on manufacturers? They trim the fat so you can stay afloat. And by fat, I mean thousands of jobs. Just take a look at Microsoft, Google, or Nokia more recently. They have a responsibility to those people to manage their resources appropriately so that their employees can get paid, have benefits, and security in a job.

If you don't run Linux, maybe it will surprise you that many of us get along using it just fine with generic drivers. Hell, I'm really not one to agree with dvb2000 on many things, but he's right in this case. I use Linux because of its versatility in being able to take on what Windows can't many times. It's saved my ass more times than I can count. But never have video drivers played an issue for me in regards to that. If anything, I've had more problems getting WiFi drivers to function properly...

So maybe you're trying to look out for Linux users. I can respect that. I just feel there's a better argument to be made here than the one you're trying to drive. As a consumer, if I want to stick it to another company, I don't buy their products. But to buy their product and make demands for it to do something more outside of what's listed on the box? That's just silly. It's like the folks who bitch about the Call of Duty games despite buying the stupid game year after year.

dead.cell said,

Implying that they're corrupt for not supporting Linux is preposterous. They have a team of employees to look out for. You know what happens when times get hard on manufacturers? They trim the fat so you can stay afloat. And by fat, I mean thousands of jobs. Just take a look at Microsoft, Google, or Nokia more recently. They have a responsibility to those people to manage their resources appropriately so that their employees can get paid, have benefits, and security in a job.

If you think that is true, fair play. I don't. I never will. This is our major difference.

It shouldn't be about a box or what's on it, it should be about the customer, but they don't care about customers, they care about corporations and their other corrupt business interests. To you this may be silly, okay, but it's something I'll believe to very end.

Mystiia said,
It shouldn't be about a box or what's on it, it should be about the customer

So a manufacturer has to bend to the will of anyone who gives them money, no matter how absurd the request is? Suppose I go out and buy a gas stove, even though I don't have gas plumbing. I should be allowed to bitch and moan to the manufacturer to make it work with what I have, even though it's clearly specified that it won't, just because I gave them money? I'm a paying customer, it's my right to disregard what the manufacturer tells me what will and won't work with their products and to completely disregard any common sense? I'm all for caring for the customer, when it was promised in the first place. If they said "Yes, this'll work on Linux" and then later said "Sorry, never mind?" I'd be all for throwing a nutty about it, totally deserved. This is not.

Talk about selfish.

Max Norris said,

So a manufacturer has to bend to the will of anyone who gives them money, no matter how absurd the request is? Suppose I go out and buy a gas stove, even though I don't have gas plumbing. I should be allowed to bitch and moan to the manufacturer to make it work with what I have, even though it's clearly specified that it won't, just because I gave them money? I'm a paying customer, it's my right to disregard what the manufacturer tells me will and won't work with their products and to completely disregard any common sense?

Talk about selfish.

So supporting Linux is absurd?

Your example is terrible; I have a computer, I have electricity, I have an operating system, my product should work, is that absurd?

Yes to put a reasonable request to a company I purchased a product from, how selfish of me, thanks for setting me straight once again Max, you always know what to say.

Is there any chance we could get in closer contact so you can increase my intellect and amount of common sense. That'd be great! Feel free to PM me anytime

Mystiia said,
So supporting Linux is absurd?

Of course not. Throwing a tantrum because they don't though is. I'm actually surprised as I typically had better results with BSD and Linux and nVidia in the past. But again, I took those precious 2 seconds out of my life to research it first.

Mystiia said,
Your example is terrible; I have a computer, I have electricity, I have an operating system, my product should work, is that absurd?

So because you have a computer, electricity, and an operating system that should make you 100% compatible with every hardware and software program available, and anyone who doesn't is in the wrong? Excuse me while I go complain to Apple about their stuff not working on my non iOS phone. Example is quite fitting if you think about it.

Mystiia said,
Is there any chance we could get in closer contact so you can increase my intellect and amount of common sense.

No thanks. Next time my daughter cries about not getting what she wants though you can talk to her though, it's about on the same level.

Max Norris said,

Of course not. Throwing a tantrum because they don't though is. I'm actually surprised as I typically had better results with BSD and Linux and nVidia in the past. But again, I took those precious 2 seconds out of my life to research it first.


So because you have a computer, electricity, and an operating system that should make you 100% compatible with every hardware and software program available, and anyone who doesn't is in the wrong? Excuse me while I go complain to Apple about their stuff not working on my non iOS phone. Example is quite fitting if you think about it.


No thanks. Next time my daughter cries about not getting what she wants though you can talk to her though, it's about on the same level.

No tantrum has been thrown yet, I'm still here

Nice experience you had there, must be the same for everyone I guess.

It's not absurd to think it should. No anyone who doesn't isn't in the wrong, you're completely entitled to believe what you wish of course. However you love taking the stance of me being in the wrong for what I believe...

Sure you can complain, but you won't get very far. And it's another poor example. Thanks for that one

Ah right, we'll have to organise that somehow, got any ideas? Maybe Skype is best here?

Mystiia said,
No tantrum has been thrown yet, I'm still here

Oh goodie

Mystiia said,
Nice experience you had there, must be the same for everyone I guess.

Never said that, not sure why you're implying that. I've had some pretty awful experiences with Linux and hardware not playing ball too. Probably would have saved myself some hassles had I done a simple web search to check though as surprise, I wasn't the only one. There's plenty of stuff that doesn't work under Linux, and *gasp* stuff that doesn't work under OSX or Windows too. They tend to give out information as to what a product will or won't work with for a good reason.

Mystiia said,
It's not absurd to think it should. No anyone who doesn't isn't in the wrong, you're completely entitled to believe what you wish of course. However you love taking the stance of me being in the wrong for what I believe...

Don't get me wrong. I do fully believe in supporting the paying customer and all that. If they said something should work and it doesn't, I'd raise all sorts of hell with them. But that's the thing, it was never said, implied or otherwise that it was supported. Just because you have a computer and some money doesn't arbitrarily give you the right to make bad buying decisions, nor does it force the manufacturers to lose the right to protect themselves from blatantly clueless customers who didn't think before they bought.

Mystiia said,
Sure you can complain, but you won't get very far. And it's another poor example. Thanks for that one

Why is it a poor example? My example has me buying an item that was never, ever mentioned that it would work on my device. Not even hinted at in a vague roundabout sort of way. Absolutely zero way I could read the specs and think otherwise. Yet I'm complaining about it anyways, because I gave them money so I have the right to be a clueless consumer who can't be bothered with trifles like reading specifications or other manufacturer info that just might be relevant. Sounds like a fitting example, why is one perfectly acceptable and the other absurd?

Mystiia said,
If you think that is true, fair play. I don't. I never will. This is our major difference.

No, our major difference is that you're making it sound like those of us using nVidia cards with Linux are stuck in the ocean without a paddle. It's just not true. Also, they do offer support for Linux.

Look it up yourself:
http://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us

Hell, if we can get a 4 monitor setup on a single system with Linux, I think we're okay. Once again, it's about not being an idiot and buying the proper hardware (whether that's AMD or nVidia) for the things you want to do. You don't just go out and buy something and "hope for the best". I don't get why being a responsible consumer is so hard...

Mystiia said,

Who cares about ****ing operating systems, they should be supporting the consumer, not some other business (Microsoft).

Thank for your compliment again

Your example is terrible yet again, not going to even bother with it.

Business is business is corruption.

It is NVIDIAs fault for not supporting Linux... They don't support it, so it's there fault.

I'm not asking anyone to feel bad for me, I run Windows with AMD, I'm looking out for the interests of other people, clearly you couldn't give a **** and I respect that, it must be hard to be *that* ignorant.

All in all I'm happy just to argue with you, since your username basically sums up your personality, willing to bend over and let a business **** you in the ass while you defend them, hey If you enjoy that, power to you sir.

It is Nvidia's fault because they don't support something you want? Oh cry a river. Nvidia has the choice to support it or not, just as you have the choice to be a moron and go out and buy something and say "Gee golly I sure hope this works...". Should we be mad with ID Software for making RAGE not run on Windows 95, or maybe Nvidia for making their new graphics cards not work in AGP ports, or maybe Intel for making CPUs require new / different sockets?

Oh please I take it up the ass? Come on, I think we know who is the ass here. I do research before I go pay money for a product to make sure it meets my requirements and theirs. I don't blindly buy **** and throw pixie dust on it and pray it works. I really don't see what you are upset about here. It is YOUR fault, do you get mad at your bank when you overdraft and they charge you? No, it was written in the agreement. Just as the requirements of their hardware are written on the box or their website. It is no ones fault but the person who did not do the research before they bought the product. It has nothing to do with the manufacturer.