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Legalise file-sharing with taxes?

AdmiralRooster   on 23 September 2004 - 13:22 · 93 comments & 5831 views

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Andrew Orlowski, technology journalist and author, said, in a keynote speech at the Interactive In The City conference being held in Manchester, Pop piracy should be decriminalised and the music industry should realise that efforts to stop illegal downloading are doomed, and istead they should embrace file-sharers. Ok, so this is something most of us have been saying for a while. Stopping illegal illegal file-sharing, is going to be hard. Mr. Orlowski made a suggestion that maybe record companies should find other ways to generate the cash for artists. A radical idea proposed was the introduction of a smal surcharge to net subsciption fees, which would then be distributed amongst those whose music is being shared.

Although he said that the current form of peer-to-peer networks let the music industry track down the most prolific file swappers, the next generation of technologies will render such efforts futile. These next generation networks and technologies could make it easier to swap, and harder to stop.

News source: BBC News
View: The Full Story



He added:
Copyright law is fine. We just need to enforce it in a more enlightened way.
I do not have kids and I do not have a car but I do not have any objection to paying for roads and schools because it is better that they are there rather than not.

He concluded that the idea of a surcharge was winning the broad backing of many in the music industry including legendary figure Tony Wilson formerly of Factory Records.

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#1 sentio on 23 Sep 2004 - 13:25
(3 replies) #2 sloppycode on 23 Sep 2004 - 13:26
It's really hard to muster up any sympathy for a music industry that (in the UK), charges £12 for a CD, of which they make over £7 profit from
#2.1 threedaysdwn on 23 Sep 2004 - 17:12
Only 7? Wow they must pay your artists better there. Or have really expensive CDs =)

.
#2.2 mohennessey on 24 Sep 2004 - 11:17
the record labels, marketing, and promotion firms get the bulk of the CD sales. a top artist will probably see a dollar for each cd sold. id rather give a dollar or two to artists for their cds since thats what they would be making at the most.
#2.3 MonkeyWhacker on 25 Sep 2004 - 04:24
yup, its all about the tours
#3 Alistero on 23 Sep 2004 - 13:34
much better than suing users
(11 replies) #4 astrokat on 23 Sep 2004 - 13:34
Did he spell legalize correctly?

[edit] nm, i guess the brits don't use Z's
#4.1 Alistero on 23 Sep 2004 - 13:37
no.. in america
#4.2 noll3095 on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:17
No, it looks really weird. Dictionary.com doesn't have a definition for the "s" version while they do have Brit versions of "colour" and "centre".
#4.3 Andareed on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:24
Many words ending in 'ize' are changed to 'ise' in Britain. F.e., authorise. Most dictionaries list the 'ise' version beside the 'ize' version.
#4.4 c_gotheridge on 23 Sep 2004 - 17:12
What do u mean "changed to ise" in Britan? It's changed to ize in America, we made the language mate.
#4.5 threedaysdwn on 23 Sep 2004 - 17:16
QUOTE
No, it looks really weird. Dictionary.com doesn't have a definition for the "s" version while they do have Brit versions of "colour" and "centre".


Actually it is there. You must have spelled it wrong?

QUOTE
What do u mean "changed to ise" in Britan? It's changed to ize in America, we made the language mate.


I wonder what the OED says =)
#4.6 noll3095 on 23 Sep 2004 - 19:29
No, I right clicked it and did a Google search and it didn't have a definition (like in the header on the right where you can click a word to see it's definition). Typed in manually it's there; I guess Google didn't recognize it as a word (though you would think it's just a web service and would show up there if it had any definition on Dictionary.com).
#4.7 MoRiA on 24 Sep 2004 - 07:22
Correct British spelling of most words is "-ise", rather than "-ize". Although with the advent of the Internet (and maybe US TV programmes) the American spellings of some words are starting to become popular and "accepted" here, however much it irks me.

As this article is about the UK, and it was taken from the BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation), the spelling of "legalise" is correct
#4.8 SquareSoft0 on 24 Sep 2004 - 08:23
It irks you to change an 's' to a 'z' in an inanely small amount of words? You've got some learning to do before you get to the real world, kiddo.
#4.9 MoRiA on 24 Sep 2004 - 08:58
No, it irks me that the UK seems to be gradually becoming more like America ¬_¬
#4.10 SaLiVa on 24 Sep 2004 - 14:26
RoFL!!! Thats a good one. It should be "-ise" Besides, the English came from English people, where do English people come from? England. Finished... Oooh, it also derived from Latin, so take it either way, its from Europe.
#4.11 Joshie on 24 Sep 2004 - 17:45
It's kind of strange because I prefer the -ise spellings, but I always want to stab people in the face when they spell things like honour/colour/favour. Maybe because the vast majority of people who do that are pretentious American teenagers.

In both cases, England's the confusing one. From what I understand, 's' is unvoiced, 'z' is voiced, and the s/z in 'organise' is voiced, so it should technically be a 'z' if you want it to make phonetic sense. As for the 'ou' thing, that's just friggen stupid. WTF do you need an extra letter there for, except to say, "Look at me! Look at me! I spell better than Americans!"
#5 Eversurf on 23 Sep 2004 - 13:36
I think I pay enough taxes as it is. My internet connection is already 50$ (Road Runner). They need to lower their prices. They should be able to do so because the middle man as been removed from the equation (Music Store)

Have Fun!!!
#6 Netrack on 23 Sep 2004 - 13:39
50!!!!call and complain to road runner, my rents pay 39
(1 reply) #7 take_the_veil on 23 Sep 2004 - 13:42
It's not even the price that bothers me (although cd's are rather expensive) it's the availability. My taste isn't exaclty avante garde or bohemian, but i still find it quite hard to get ahold of a lot of cds i want to buy (albeit i'm more or less limited to virgin / hmv type shops.) Then again, that does kinda go back to the price. If record companies made them cheaper to the retailer i am more than sure they would stock a more varied range. As far as taxing, that's simply a ridiculous idea, it seems like the guy is under the impression it's only music companies that are affected by filesharing.
#7.1 psykil on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:23
or that filesharing is the only use for the internet. this isn't a radical new idea, it's been proposed hundreds of times, and shot down as a stupid idea just as many. he may not mind paying for "roads", but everyone else will.

hey here's a radical idea - tax blank media. canada's been doing it for years and it works absolutely great. i mean, sure i pay more for a spindle, but i can also download mp3's legally.
(6 replies) #8 IceDogg on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:20
Ok I have a real problem with this IDEA! Fine for those that want to download music and such, but what about people that don't?? Why should they pay a tax or "surcharge" for something they will never use? That's just plain unfair! Now I know we pay taxs for things all the time that we don't USE our selfs.. but this is not the same at all. This Idea is stupid!!
#8.1 Joshie on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:03
Well, it's kinda communistic, too. :]
#8.2 nic on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:20
I agree.

It is communist. But at least people are throwing ideas out there, because the current system isn't working. There is so much money just being waisted trying to fight music piracy right now it is ridiculus. I understand that the music industry can't just turn a blind eye, but they can't be complaining about profit loss either while they are throwing expensive legal suit after expensive legal suit around.

If ANYONE can figure out how to make everyone happy, then they will have a million dollar idea. I don't have it....yet.............
#8.3 R002092 on 23 Sep 2004 - 18:29
To Quote Myself

QUOTE
I do not have kids and I do not have a car but I do not have any objection to paying for roads and schools because it is better that they are there rather than not.


which is true, and like he says, its an online community. In the UK, I don't know what the american system is like, but we all pay to use hospital services, but some of us may go through an entire lifetime without using them.
#8.4 insurektion on 23 Sep 2004 - 20:08
blah blah blah. communist my ass. i pay roads that i dont drive on for kids i dont have that to a school i have no longer need for and cover medical treatment for those who use it far more than i do yadda yadda yadda. this would actually work as a tax deal. finally something i could actually make use of.
#8.5 MaceX on 23 Sep 2004 - 21:18
I agree whole-heartedly. I never download music and I rarely listen to it unless I'm forced to listen to it. I just think it's a distraction and it never really engages me to enjoy it. I shouldn't be forced to pay a charge if I'm never going to use it.

This is not a solution to the problem, and I doubt there ever will be one. IMO it should be perfectly legal to download copywrited works. Now what should be illegal is uploading, distributing and making a profit off others works.

Is it illegal to go to a friends house and watch a dvd he rented? Yes.. yes it is, does the mpaa condone such acts? Yes they do! I've even seen comercials condoning the acts. Copyright laws are utterly immoral to me.
#8.6 SaLiVa on 24 Sep 2004 - 14:32
Wow, tax is such a big issue... Lucky I live in Brunei. hahaha! *PheW* Free from taxes.
Here I think we only pay for Electricity and Water. Hospitals costs $1 per entry, and if you own the land theres no tax on it. Gas comes in containers costing about $25 each. Only problem... Internet is crap expensive. S$168 just for 256kbps. $88 for unlimited 56k... $98 for 128kbps. Scary and stupid pricing altogether.

About this tax for online file sharing, well for those of you who dont share files, you should get yourself a computer and start on it. Might as well, its like legalising theft in a way. So you can thieve all you like in while doing no wrong.

Thats justice for you!
#9 Galley on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:26
Kinda like one of the reasons why car insurance is so expensive. All the "thieving *******s" out there who commit insurance fraud. We're the ones who end up paying for it.
(6 replies) #10 psykil on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:28
there's quite a bit of difference between paying taxes for roads and schools and paying taxes because some corporations feel they haven't made enough money this year. taxes go to government to be spent back on the people, not to whatever acronym whines the loudest.
#10.1 Foub on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:39
And as we all know giving money to corporations doesn't help the average person either. Can you say outsourcing to overseas, anybody?
#10.2 briangw on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:56
outsourcing wouldn't be an issue if people in America would get off their lazy asses and work. Imagine our strong our economy would be if medicare/government help were abolished.
#10.3 psykil on 23 Sep 2004 - 17:18
that's hardly the reason behind outsourcing. companies outsource because the wages in other countries are far less than they would have to pay in the US. the cause has little to do with how hard the employees work, although it is often a benefit.

and to say that elimating medicare and government income suppliments would get ppl off their "lazy asses" and work just makes you sound ignorant. please think before you post.
#10.4 briangw on 23 Sep 2004 - 19:30
hmmm. Ignorant, huh? Well what about businesses in towns and cities that go under when the unemployment rate is higher than the number of jobs that are available. Maybe you should study some economics classes and come back and talk when you graduate grade school, ok?
#10.5 GiB WaKeR on 24 Sep 2004 - 12:44
Um, no briangw, psykill had it right the first time... you just sound plain ignorant.
#10.6 briangw on 24 Sep 2004 - 16:44
God, are you people moronic? Then explain to me all these jobs are open in Minneapolis, and our unemployment rate is at an all time high?

When you guys wake up from la-la land, come find me; I'll be over in reality.
(1 reply) #11 WinMacLin on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:36
I wouldn't mind paying £2 extra a month on-top of my internet to know that I can get music for preety much nothing (and no limit on how much music) but this will never happen. of course. I'm just saying I wouldn't mind paying some small fee
#11.1 MoRiA on 24 Sep 2004 - 07:27
Agreed. Shove my monthly ADSL fee from £21 to £23 for legal music downloads. I'm happy with that. Of course that wouldn't legalise software downloads but it's a step closer
(4 replies) #12 imtoomuch on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:39
I vote "no". I'm in the US by the way. Not all people should pay a "piracy tax" because not all people use P2Ps and such. Overall, this is just a dumb proposal.
#12.1 Foub on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:42
In Canada we pay a little surtax on media and file sharing for personal use isn't illegal up here . Usually the computer store has lowered the price by the amount of the tax so we really don't see it. Most of their profits now come from the sale of hardware and not the software they carry.
#12.2 darksoul on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:02
i am rather sure there is a similar tax in america, atleast on blank tapes and VHS. But that still doesn't make it legal to steal music
#12.3 Foub on 23 Sep 2004 - 18:45
How can one steal music? Are they claiming that they wrote it or are they making a profit from it that they aren't sharing with the author? Is it stealing everytime you him a tune out loud or listen to the radio without buying anything from the ads?
#12.4 AJCrowley Esq on 24 Sep 2004 - 04:45
Well darksoul, here it is legal to download mp3s for personal use, which means that contrary to your opinion, it is not stealing. I'm more concerned with the ethics of giving the music industry money from every piece of blank media sold, when the vast majority is not used for any kind of activity which concerns the industry.

That said, I'm quite happy to pay the tax, it's not noticeable, and I don't have the FBI kicking in my door when I download a song when you'd think that maybe they'd have some more pressing issues to dedicate their time to - anyone remember a couple of months after 9/11 when many of our American friends got arrested and their equipment confiscated? I'm glad that the government here has their act somewhat together (in this regard at least), and doesn't waste their time being at the beck and call of the RIAA.
#13 pctuk on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:45
I vote no because there would be no incentive for companies to improve their sites if they were guaranteed customers.

It's best to have companies competing like now (Real vs Apple vs MS etc), so they try harder to add new features that will satisfy the customer.
(1 reply) #14 markjensen on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:49
From the news article:
QUOTE
The inclusion of a small surcharge on monthly internet subscription fees that was given to record labels to pay artists could solve the problem, he said.

"I do not have kids and I do not have a car but I do not have any objection to paying for roads and schools because it is better that they are there rather than not."

I fail to see this guy's logic. I shouldn't have to subsidize a business with my taxes. The other items are for govenrment and communities. His reasoning is fundamentally flawed.

QUOTE
He added that the idea of a surcharge was winning the broad backing of many in the music industry including legendary figure Tony Wilson formerly of Factory Records.
No kidding!
They are the ones that are going to be pocketing the money!
#14.1 Foub on 23 Sep 2004 - 18:47
You already subsidize business. Its called Corporate welfare and yet they still ship your jobs overseas.
#15 Atomizer on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:54
wow, for once ive managed to beat neowin to a story.....

http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=52&t=220902
#16 [david] on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:56
good idea but they should only tax people with internet connections, otherwise it isn't fair.
#17 Mothium on 23 Sep 2004 - 14:58
This is will never happen in the UK for a few reasons, one is that tony blair's govt. is trying very hard to promote "broadband britain" and by raising the prices they would be hurting their own plan.

Also there would be large uproar from people who do not (and people to claim to not) download music from p2p networks
(4 replies) #18 Emon on 23 Sep 2004 - 15:07
soo many typos in this article

QUOTE

realise, istead, 2x illegal, smal
#18.1 markjensen on 23 Sep 2004 - 15:45
realise - correct UK English.
istead - genuine typo
illegal - correctly spelled. How do you spell it?
smal - genuine typo

That makes two typos.
#18.2 YaddaMe on 23 Sep 2004 - 19:56
As far as "illegal", he wasn't referring to the spelling, but the statement, "Stopping illegal illegal file-sharing, is going to be hard."

#18.3 markjensen on 23 Sep 2004 - 21:15
Maybe the news article means that it is very illegal filesharing?
#18.4 YaddaMe on 23 Sep 2004 - 23:16
Or that there is somehow a legal way of illegal file-sharing?
#19 vetToxicfume on 23 Sep 2004 - 15:15
So they are going to begin charging taxes on pirated software? (essentially so)
#20 Ciderx on 23 Sep 2004 - 15:45
Why in God's name would anyone in their right mind listen to a single thing that utter, utter, utter cretin Andrew Orlowski has to say? The guy is a, well, its rhymes with cupid stunt!

(1 reply) #21 v_magal on 23 Sep 2004 - 15:58
Music artists make too much money anyways and you can't even call it music anymore(all new gayhop eg: 50, nelly,aka smelly, gay-z, britney aka thee ho of the century, ) and can you say one word? mtv cribs. fuk the music companies and fuk the riaa fuk the government.


I only buy music of northern kali sacramento and bay area rap there the ones i support because they put out good hip hop

just my two cents
#21.1 BTallack on 23 Sep 2004 - 23:48
Do you honestly expect anyone to take you seriously when you're using terms like "gayhop, gay-z, and smelly"?
#22 bilbobaggins on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:06
I won't pay extra taxes to indirectly give money for artists which I don't like or even hate !

When I want to give money to an artist, I go to their concerts and I buy their albums.

If I'd pay taxes for file sharing (which I won't, or have I already said that I would also give money for the many ****ty others I avoid.

And one more point: from these extra taxes who would get the most share ? Okay lemme tel you: RIAA. Right. So let's make them richer. Why ? Cause we like'em ! Or we don't ? Oh, I'm loosing my grip on reality here


(2 replies) #23 Dessimat0r on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:09
No, I don't download any music, so I don't see why I should pay the taxes of audiophiles.
#23.1 Jugalator on 24 Sep 2004 - 06:42
Uh, why would you be an audiophile just because you like to download music?

I know I'm not -- my music equipment is quite average, and I'm not crazy about only using lossless music.

Do you simply not know what an audiophile is?
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=audiophile
#23.2 kagaku on 24 Sep 2004 - 16:42
QUOTE
No, I don't download any music, so I don't see why I should pay the taxes of audiophiles.


I don't know what 'Audiophiles' you know, but the ones I know simply won't download music. Not because it's illegal or anything, but because they say it "sounds like crap". They'd rather buy the album so they can listen to the original lossless version on their $5000 home entertainment setups.
#24 Zonsolo on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:31
lol... some of the viewpoints here really crack me up. Otherwise to comment on the article, as stated they will never be able to stop it entirely, just make it harder to do.

A "surcharge" for internet access has nothing to do with taxes. The tax you pay on your connection is tax. A surcharge would be separate entirely. I however don't promote bumping prices for such venues either.

The idea of a surcharge built into media is not going to work either as I would guess over 50% of mp3's never make it to a CD and are played from HD or portable MP3 players using HDs.

I'm not sure where they could get their money.... with the death of media sales, that would only leave them with the prospect of re-inventing themselves and giving us a reason to buy media from the store.

Kill the CD entirely, offer nothing but DVD's (yes they are burnable, but keep reading) with in concert stuff, extra features, in-studio film footage, discount concert tickets, discount tickets on t-shirts or other memorabilia, etc. They could include back door access to alternate websites via passcodes included in the disc like software does, offering incentives to log into the site and have access where someone who "stole" their copy of the song wouldn't get to see things like interviews, commentary, videos, etc.

If someone wants to RIP his or her DVD and pop it up onto a fileshare, it will take longer to rip (larger file size), lose serious quality (if dropping from SACD to mp3 for example), not come with any additional benefits, etc.

Point is that they need to make the purchase of music cheap enough and packed with enough benefits to make the end user say "its just not worth the time it takes to download and burn this disc" when I get so much more than just the music for my $10 (where the price should be if it included some of the stuff I mention above.)
#25 Zonsolo on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:34
Or better yet, a point based system where you can get free stuff. Similar to what pepsi does.

Example buy 5 cds and get a free concert ticket or
buy 4 cds and get 10 free downloads from apple's music store,

or whatever.

If they were to just "think" they could easily figure out a way to attract customers rather than alienate them.
#26 deadmonkey on 23 Sep 2004 - 16:43
I think it is a better idea than suing users. They already do this on black tapes so I don't see why a few extra pounds on my internet price should be a problem.

What I still think is wrong is when the RIAA, etc. say they are loosing "billions of dollars" when they are still making huge profits, just not as huge as before. They are not really loosing any money at all, just not making as much. If they never made it (which they have not made as not as many people doubt the [cd/dvd, etc.]) then they can't call it a loss IMO. Afterall they can't say that every user who downloads an album/dvd, etc. illegally would have bought it in the first place.
(1 reply) #27 NXTwoThou on 23 Sep 2004 - 18:20
Great! Time for me to register myself as an independant record company. Then I just have to record static and me going to the bathroom..make it available P2P, and I can then collect some of this tax money.

Stupid lawmakers.
#27.1 Jonny6pak on 23 Sep 2004 - 20:03
It's not that simple...you don't just register in the big book of record companies and all of a sudden your a legitimate independent record label. That and I think logistics of such a surcharge is a bit out of hand. At the very basic level, not a bad idea, but implementation is a bit absurd.
(5 replies) #28 Foub on 23 Sep 2004 - 18:50
It has been proven that downloading music has zero affect on music sales.
#28.1 Dark Warhawk on 23 Sep 2004 - 19:32
To claim it has zero effect is pretty arrogant. of course it has an impact, how much is only a guess
#28.2 Foub on 23 Sep 2004 - 21:42
It takes 5000 music downloads to affect the sale of one song.
#28.3 Dark Warhawk on 24 Sep 2004 - 06:33
lol and the source of that trash?
#28.4 Foub on 24 Sep 2004 - 10:24
http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,62871,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,1265840,00.html

http://www.dmeurope.com/default.asp?ArticleID=1388

http://www.silicon.com/networks/webwatch/0,39024667,39119638,00.htm

http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf

http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/2003/statistics.html

#28.5 Dark Warhawk on 24 Sep 2004 - 19:53
lol university level research finds file sharing does not reduce cd sales color me shocked
#29 Sage_Override on 23 Sep 2004 - 19:46
It has an obvious effect. Everything is "cause and effect" anyway, but you don't exactly see rock stars and rap stars on the streets begging for change because more than a million computers users download their music, do ya? It's just a sh*tty corporate ploy derived to piss people off, get more money for musicians than they rightfully deserve and cause media frenzy. It's pure bulls*it and I'll be glad when it's all over for good.
(1 reply) #30 Notsnarc on 23 Sep 2004 - 20:35
isn't it funny how you pay 20 bucks for a dvd, something with actors, editers, directors etc. the list goes on and on, most movies involve at least 100 people working for at least a year

albums are around 15bucks, and involve around 20 people working for around 3 months

dvd's have video and music and are usually longer, hmm something's wrong here
#30.1 BTallack on 23 Sep 2004 - 23:51
I don't know about you, but I generally listen to a CD I buy 50-100 times, whereas any DVD I buy, I generally watch only once or twice. In this sense, I find the CD a better value.
#31 boogerjones on 23 Sep 2004 - 20:36
QUOTE
record companies should find other ways to generate the cash for artists.


Record companies are dying to generate money for themsel.....uuuuggg, I mean.. artists.
#32 lylesback2 on 23 Sep 2004 - 21:19
check spelling!

'istead"

"illegal illegal file"???
#33 Gary_Player on 23 Sep 2004 - 22:27
Hahahahaha...thats the lamest thing I've ever heard...how is this "tax" any different from napster or itunes fees? Or even regular ISP charges?
(1 reply) #34 f4k3r on 23 Sep 2004 - 23:13
Haha,seriously the dumbest thing ever. This is insane i already pay for my lousy 512/128kbit conection 80$AUD/month. U think i am gonna pay 100$ for it? No fkcing way. Hollywood can go **** themselfs with dildos in the ass. I wouldnt call this tax as well, but an addon charge.
#34.1 Jugalator on 24 Sep 2004 - 06:47