main

Microsoft Threatens Lawsuits Over Linux

lardiop   on 18 November 2004 - 15:13 · 88 comments & 4140 views

Advertisement (Why?)
Microsoft Chief Operating Officer Steve Ballmer on Thursday warned Asian governments that they could face intellectual rights-infringement lawsuits for using rival open-source operating platforms such as Linux.

Ballmer, speaking in Singapore at Microsoft's Asian Government Leaders Forum, said that Linux violated more than 228 patents. He did not provide any detail on the alleged violations, which the Linux community disputes. Singapore's Ministry of Defense last month switched 20,000 personal computers to run on open-source software instead of the Microsoft operating platform.

Ballmer commented that "Someday, for all countries that are entering the WTO (World Trade Organization), somebody will come and look for money owing to the rights for that intellectual property."

The Chinese government, in particular, sees its reliance on Microsoft as a potential threat. Conspiracy buffs believe certain patches in the Windows code might give U.S. authorities the power to access Chinese networks and disable them, possibly during a war over Taiwan.

News source: Reuters


Thanks to Hadiz from the forums for the heads up on this article

Post a comment · Send to friend Comments · There are 88 additional comments
(2 replies) #1 joseph0324 on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:20
Hmmm.. interesting!

I want to see Steve Ballmer comes up with more details.
#1.1 Shining Arcanine on 18 Nov 2004 - 23:14
If I recall NTFS and FAT compatibility are two infringements. I recall reading about a few more but I can't recall them off the top of my head.
#1.2 tapo on 19 Nov 2004 - 01:37
NTFS isn't patented, and the FAT one (For extended names in FAT, not FAT itself) was struck down.

I believe Linux does violate software patents, but Windows XP probably does too (Microsoft has been sued before, IBM and Apple have patents on everything.) and the reason Microsoft won't sue is because IBM will destroy them with their patent arsenal.

As the only way to defend against software patents (which you don't need because copyright already protects your software) is to have others to fight the company back with, I'm absolutely for the abolition of them.
#2 Rabbai on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:28
So typical microsoft...
#3 bladerunner81 on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:29
like the pending patent for status bars, progress bars,...? or the tcp/ip-stack microsoft recently claims to have invented? c'mon, steve, give us *nix-fanboys something to laugh before the weekend...
#4 tiwaris on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:32
His speeches are utter Bull****. No technical content and only made-up words.
If he would have provided details, maybe his claims would have weight.

BTW, if linux really infringed on even a single patent owned by MSFT (I am not talking about other corporations), they already would have sued the entire linux community. So far as others are considered, I do not know, but I wonder why they are not after linux community if it really infringes on their IP.
(4 replies) #5 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:42
for linux community:

linux infringe more than a hundred patents (don't remember the number now),stop being copycats,and do your own software,microsoft simply wait,until there were sufficient infringments,to start wiping out and passing bills to linux wannabes

that's one of the reasons linux will never beat windows

the truth

do not want to start a flame war
#5.1 bladerunner81 on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:53
either you tell us what patents and IP are infringed, or your say is just the usual ms-FUD. you tell us even less than ballmer does, and that was in essence nothing.
#5.2 markjensen on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:54
Eduard,

These 228 potential infringements are just items that were raised during the Munich Linux migration. These are items that may be similar enough that someone could decide to challenge. Stupid patents are issued all the time (Microsoft has gone after stupid patents before). Stupid patents are frequently invalidated, as well.

Until somone comes up and says this particular item is questionable, these allegations are just heresay.

For you to tout them as "the truth", then call a community "copycats" and tell them to "do their own software" (which is coded by the Open Source community, you should read up on this), plus calling them "wannabes" is quite an invitation to "start a flame war" (which you pretend to not want to do).

Please start stating facts, rather than innuendo and insults that you try to pass off as facts.
#5.3 SVT on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:57
I agree with EduardValencia, everyone should buy a Xerox Alto and stop giving their money to copycats.

SVT
#5.4 tapo on 19 Nov 2004 - 01:38
Nice one SVT.
#6 8-n-1 on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:45

Does this guy ever NOT talk out of his ass?
(4 replies) #7 Fade68 on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:50
This is another scare tactic by MS. They are freaked by the fact that Linux is making more inroads to the OS market, plus seeing that LongHorn will be delayed, Linux can capture an even larger market share.

FAde
#7.1 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 15:58
hahaha in fact ,that's bull****
#7.2 Shining Arcanine on 18 Nov 2004 - 23:16
Exactly how is Linux going to do that when it is the most unuser friendly operating system in the world? Longhorn is aimed at desktop users who need a user friendly operating system.
#7.3 Darkinspiration on 19 Nov 2004 - 00:17
well the chinese are interested that's more than a billion potential users .... it's enought to scare anybody.


but let's not forget the power of people if china adopt linux massively how long do you thing it will be before linux as a truly userfriendly interface ?
#7.4 tapo on 19 Nov 2004 - 01:50
QUOTE
Exactly how is Linux going to do that when it is the most unuser friendly operating system in the world? Longhorn is aimed at desktop users who need a user friendly operating system.


You're right on that. But let me tell you what I've noticed.

When I started using Linux about 2-3 years ago, I can't even tell, there was GNOME 1.4, and it was ugly as sin. You couldn't tell when applications were loading, it could feel usable but I still loved rebooting into Windows. GNOME 2 brought a nicer interface and half-broken apps. Fast-forward to GNOME 2.8, and not only is it usable, but the majority of the applications just scream polish. Installing software on my Debian system is as simple as loading Synaptic, hitting "Refresh" and then finding the application's name or category. Updating it is just "Refresh" then "Update". A bunch of friends are amazed, and to quote one: "You got all this for free?".

Linux is absolutely ready to attack the enterprise desktop market, especially after seeing the latest versions of SuSE and Fedora Core (Though I still think RPM sucks).

What it needs is simply hardware autodetection and configuration. Currently handled pretty well by hotplug and discover. After that, marketing will bring the users. With users come drivers.

Considering that Macs definately rule the kingdom of ease of use, and Windows being customization/budget, I sometimes wonder if Windows is going to survive.
(3 replies) #8 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:05
ok markjensen u are right,sorry for stating my answer incorrectly,i shall correct this

i will give weight to my post,i've investigated a bit about this issue to make it clear,in fact of the 283 patents infringed by linux,27 are held by microsoft,and 98 by linux allies (not quite right)

283-98= 185 potential lawsuits

here's the proof

zdnet News
#8.1 bladerunner81 on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:08
you should read the article to the end. it is no proof, but just a news story (a rather old one...), and states clearly:

QUOTE

In Ravicher's opinion, 283 patents could be a basis for Linux infringement lawsuits, but that leaves open the question of whether a court would find actual infringement or whether the patent would ruled invalid. Of patents challenged in court, about half are found to be invalid, Ravicher said.


personal opinion... but still no proof! (and no mentioning of REALLY infringed patents)

Last edited by 48041 on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:13
#8.2 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:09
ok ok i'll investigate more in depth,check later to see results
#8.3 theh0g on 19 Nov 2004 - 02:16
Eduard, WTF is wrong with you boy? Too much crack?
(12 replies) #9 StuRReaL on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:06
sounds like sour grapes to me as ms have lost 20,000 windows licences to linux
#9.1 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:08
prove it now
#9.2 markjensen on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:22
Munich: 14,000 non-renewals source
Singapore: 20,000 non-renewals source

That is a quick 34,000 of a few hits on Google.

(EDIT: Funny to see Eduard asking for proof!)
#9.3 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:29
lol markjensen

counterattack

Techweb
#9.4 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:32
#9.5 bladerunner81 on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:39
still no proof... the first article speaks of oem-vendors who preload their equipment with linux to make it cheaper, the second one is missleading, as the commentary on it states. markjensen was referring to actual proofen numbers of government pc's who'll get migrated to linux.
#9.6 markjensen on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:42
Eduard, your first source (Techweb) was in regards to piracy (particularly in poorer countries). This is what the Microsoft Windows Starter Edition was about. This does not apply to business/government contracts, which are what my posts were about. Those organizations represent real losses for Microsoft.

Your second post is old news. The migration was halted for about a month, I believe, to evaluate the "Patent Threat" discussed elsewhere in these comments. It has since resumed at full rate.
#9.7 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:47
true,sorry,i'll continue investigating
#9.8 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:52
markjensen i've got one

Eweek

you can't rebuff that

next page

Eweek also
#9.9 bladerunner81 on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:01
well, actually your argument is stumped by this quotes:

QUOTE

Linux became an issue when Combe's Web applications needed a database, and the only option available to the company was one from Oracle Corp.

Those concerns were proved worthwhile two years ago when the ISP gave Combe two weeks' notice that it was closing its doors.


so he was not happy with oracle (which is not open source) and his isp closed down. nothing to do with linux as os.

second one:

QUOTE

"There was a limit set up within the program that said you can only order 'x' amount of products within one transaction," Roy said. "When one of our guests went over the limit, it crashed the whole store.


so he has a poorly coded web application, which crashed. still no reference to linux as os. and the final one:

QUOTE

Such customers may not outweigh the numbers switching to Linux and sticking with it, but Microsoft executives will take any wins they can.
#9.10 markjensen on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:02
Eduard. Those are both the exact same link.

Also, although no numbers are mentioned in the article, one is a webserver, and the other is a single business transaction server. It can't be more than a dozen PCs between them. You need about 33,988 (34,000 - 12) more examples.
#9.11 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:09
lol ok

u didn't denied that article

the fact is this

linux is apparently cheaper than linux,but as the article said,the large term costs are much greater than Microsoft license fees,these people encontered some incompatibilities and inestabilities when they used linux.

this can be correct and incorrect,because this depends on the needs of the customers.

this point proves,that linux need more evolution,to be a real menace to microsoft,this doesen't mean that microsoft is really concerned,but they are actually following all linux moves to see what happens
#9.12 markjensen on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:22
Linux is ready NOW to take on Microsoft. It has been gaining marketshare (particularly in servers) for several years. Projections from IDG and Gartner both paint pictures of even larger increases over the next few years.

As for the need to evolve, both Linux and Microsoft have a constant need to evolve and improve. Linux does it daily, and faster than Windows (look at where they both were back in 1994 - 10 years ago).
(2 replies) #10 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:15
"There is a very important reason why OSRM will not disclose the identity of the 283 patents that may be infringed by Linux"

source www.computeractive.com.uk



Last edited by 69181 on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:22
#10.1 bladerunner81 on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:22
still one up for this particular treat in you linked article:

QUOTE

It is entirely possible that each of the 283 patents might also be infringed by any other operating system kernel, as none of the patents (and no patent I've ever seen) is limited to software distributed in a certain manner.

Patents only care if software performs a certain function in a certain way, not how it is distributed or licensed. This is why OSRM has stated repeatedly that the risk posed by patents to Foss is no more than that posed to proprietary software.

As you correctly point out, the 283 patents that may cover Linux may also cover Solaris, Windows NT, AIX etc.

#10.2 markjensen on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:25
Plus, this company ("Linux insurance firm Open Source Risk Management (OSRM)" has a vested interest in gettnig people to feel worried about patent threats...

He sells insurance for just this "problem" lol What a scam he has going on!
(1 reply) #11 SVT on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:19
"the threat of legal action is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

--Mark Twain
#11.1 SquareSoft0 on 18 Nov 2004 - 23:06
"<< removed >>"

--Mark Twain

(I like Mark Twain and think he was wise for his time, just making a joke )

Last edited by 36818 on 19 Nov 2004 - 02:29
(1 reply) #12 xpgeek on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:22
"The Chinese government, in particular, sees its reliance on Microsoft as a potential threat. Conspiracy buffs believe certain patches in the Windows code might give U.S. authorities the power to access Chinese networks and disable them, possibly during a war over Taiwan."

lol, I found that pretty funny, it could be true.

The rest, typical microsoft
#12.1 noyb on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:42
It does sound funny when you say it out loud but it makes sense, the same argument was used by Gerald W Wilson in his dossier regarding the dangers of using Windows in critical defense systems. Despite the body of the work being about the stability and security of such important systems needing a modular and open source approach rather than entangled and closed source system he makes reference to the fact that MS is an American company and especially when in the context of inteligence and defense it would not be wise to leave it up to a foreign power where with open source they could take the responsibility into their own hands.
#13 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 16:27
-no post here-
(2 replies) #14 pacifica on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:06
so microsoft is not only bullying companies but has now graduated to bullying countries? man, they're biting off more than they can chew with this one.
#14.1 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:11
lol
#14.2 bladerunner81 on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:13
shamelessly stolen from according slashdot article (IP of Xpilot):

QUOTE

OSGILIATH (Reuters) - Mordor Corp. warned Middle Earth kingdoms on Thursday they could face the wrath of Orc armies for harbouring and aiding Gandalf and his fellowship of hobbits instead of rightfully bowing to the will of Sauron.

The growing popularity of Gandalf - a wise and benevolent wizard who freely aids all in need and is a friend of all free people of Middle Earth - is a thread to the global dominance of Sauron's Dominion Of Evil.

Gandalf's fellowship has illegally kept Sauron's valuables, Mordor's Mouth of Sauron said at the regime's Middle Earth Kingdom Leaders Forum in Osgiliath. He did not provide any details on what exactly the nature of Sauron's valuables which were stolen are, which the Fellowship disputes.

Ex-hobbit Gollum McBride, who claims that "nasty hobbitses stole his preciousss", is suing elves and hobbits alike, including the Shire.

Rohan's Riders of Defense at Gandalf's council last month readied 20,000 horsemen to face the assault of Mordor Corp instead of submitting freely to the evil reign of Sauron.

Other kingdoms in the region are also beginning to rally under one banner. Gondor, Arnor and Erebor this year agreed to jointly combat Sauron's forces at Gandalf's advice.

The kingdom of Gondor, in particular, sees its proximity to Mordor as a potential threat. Conspiracy buffs believe that subliminal messages sent to Denethor from Sauron via his Palantir might drive the steward insane and thus confuse and cripple Gondor's defenses, possibly during a battle in the Pelennor fields.

The Mouth of Sauron said that security fears some rulers had about surrending to Mordor were "overblown".

"We think Sauron will provide far more security than Gandalf ever could. Sauron is a better protector for you lot because he has this awesome Ring which he forged, he fixed and he stands behind. Gandalf doesn't have an awesome Ring," he said.


so what? should china sue the rest of the world for infinging his IP-rights on gunpowder and compasses next?
(9 replies) #15 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:15
ok

the war isn't over,the next microsoft generation of Server software is coming,so we will se as expectators what will be going on the next 20 years ,and i know Microsoft will win this battle)

Microsoft belong to U.S

Linux belongs to finland

people of america embrace the things of your country,instead of giving your market to foreigners

windows is a good software,and is becoming cheaper and cheaper to have more access ,millions of jobs will be lost if countries switch to open-source software
#15.1 bladerunner81 on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:18
linux belongs to the world. in fact, linux belongs to no entity on this planet.
#15.2 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:20
the people of finland doesen't think so,they will be flaming americans that the software they use on their PC's was designed by them
#15.3 markjensen on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:24
Eduard, knock off the ridiculous posturing and theorizing about the evils of everything non-Microsoft. It is getting tiresome.
#15.4 noyb on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:24
Its a nice thing to say and i commend those that are patriotic to their land of birth but IBM, HP and even Dell are looking more and more at increasing their Linux portfolio and if you even look beyond the IT world to matters like outsourcing you get an even more troubling view of how you country views its dependence of its national intrests.

Also you do know that Linux although started by a Torvalds does not really belong to anyone.
#15.5 KenLin on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:24
The wide scope of your BS is astounding.
#15.6 SVT on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:58
QUOTE
Microsoft belong to U.S


Yea, but they pay people from India to code Windows.
#15.7 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:06
yea,but the company is ameican,and the CODE is american,not indian

doesen't matter if there are 1'000'000 indian coders,they are coding american stuff
#15.8 Jugalator on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:34
Eh, does it matter which country it's originally from?
If so, in which way?

Anyway, Linus has been coding his OS from USA for quite a while now, along with international help of course. Not that I really think it matters which geographical location you're coding from.
#15.9 zORYn on 18 Nov 2004 - 20:52
QUOTE
yea,but the company is ameican,and the CODE is american,not indian
doesen't matter if there are 1'000'000 indian coders,they are coding american stuff


that's gotta be the most stupid comment i have seen in ages!! is this guy still talkin? how much facts will be needed to SHUT YOU UP ONCE AND FOR ALL?!?!?!
(7 replies) #16 quanta on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:19
Ravicher gets misquoted all the time. Ballmer is tilting at windmills.

I wrote this a couple months ago: http://www.silentblue.net/mtarchives/000811.html

"Open Source Risk Management LLC gathers that, while there are no court-tested patents that could be used against Linux, there are 283 untested patents - 60 of them owned by IBM, 27 of them owned by MS - could possibly be used to sue Linux developers. OSRM does urge calm: 'It’s very similar to the result you would get if you investigated any other software program that’s as successful.'

"Dan Ravicher, a patent attorney that works for OSRM and the Public Patent Foundation, does point out that nearly half of all patent infringement suits are won in favour of the defendants, making legal challenges against Linux quite risky."
#16.1 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:21
linux community will not get away with it
#16.2 bladerunner81 on 18 Nov 2004 - 17:25
didn't you state you don't want to start a flame war? well, you are right into it now. insulting the people of finland, ranting about things you have no proof for, linking articles without even reading them carefully (and so be proofen by the quotes from this articles, which are neutral to "in favour" to linu... one might say the "t" - word...
#16.3 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:09
yah i started it

#16.4 cylonite on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:20
EduardValencia, i think bladerunner81 is saying that you are a troll
frankly i agree with him
ref:
#16.5 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:41
i was trolling,you are right

but i frankly can't understand how geeks like linux users have no life,how they spens lot's of time sitted in a PC,defending something that will not suceed.

keep it on
#16.6 Visnu on 18 Nov 2004 - 22:11
I'm glad you don't generalize, Eduard, it might make you sound like an ignorant tool, who prefers fanboyism over women. Thank God you're not generalizing....
#16.7 tapo on 19 Nov 2004 - 01:55
QUOTE
but i frankly can't understand how geeks like linux users have no life,how they spens lot's of time sitted in a PC,defending something that will not suceed.


Versus what you're doing now of course....
#17 ALUOp on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:16
I wonder how many so-called intellectual rights-infringements will be discovered on Windows source code if M$ opens it.
#18 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:17
ok i'll make a full investigation about this,i don't have my ideas organized now,u people are right,my posts were rebuffed.

i created a folder to investigate.i will surely be back

cheers

au revoir

#19 tom5 on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:23
I'm already tired of Ballmer's bull****ting about Linux.
#20 CrimandEvil on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:45
So MS is losing alittle market share in Asian Countries and Ballmer thinks that we can threaten or bully them into using MS products?!? WTF!?

They either need to Put UP or Shut Up and prove which patents are being violated, if any.
#21 neostyle on 18 Nov 2004 - 18:50
dance monkey boy , dance
where is the sugar ....?
#22 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 19:32
ok markjensen i apologize,i must accept linux is gaining adepts,because of it's costs and free distribution,really there aren't much people turning again to windows,but i expect that to change in a near future.

sorry for starting this flame war
(3 replies) #23 mrogers on 18 Nov 2004 - 19:36
How astounding...I can't decide who sounds the dumbest here. Ballmer for making a statement he doesn't back up, the Chinese government for actually thinking the US government plants back doors in Windows, or EduardValencia's rediculous posts. You have fun investigating this with your special folder, Eduard--you complained about how Linux users have no life, but you're spending all your time now hunting down the minutia of what patents are being violated. I think YOU would be the one who needs a life.

And all you fanboys need to get together, have a group hug, and admit that each OS has its strong points. I'm a big Linux proponent for servers and for techies who want to learn more about how an OS operates, but I still use Windows farily frequently on the desktop because it just does some things more easily. However, Linux is more secure, more customizable, and, when I feel like dabbling, more fun. I like that I can put Linux on my servers and more or less am able to forget about it for a long time--it just works. It doesn't need babysitting. But when I want to get a new piece of hardware working quickly, for example, or I need my good image editing software, I'll usually boot into Windows on my desktop.

Remember, everyone--different choices are a GOOD thing. We don't want everything to be the same and conformist...certain sci-fi novels of the 80's come to mind. Ballmer says hundreds of patents were violated, Linux groups cry foul, but the truth is probably somewhere in the grey area...it always is.
#23.1 zORYn on 18 Nov 2004 - 20:57
QUOTE
I can't decide who sounds the dumbest here. Ballmer for making a statement he doesn't back up, the Chinese government for actually thinking the US government plants back doors in Windows, or EduardValencia's rediculous posts.

ROTFLMFAO!
#23.2 EduardValencia on 18 Nov 2004 - 21:32
true,i know i made ridicoulus posts,and i didn't show my point,i will reorganize my ideas

sorry
#23.3 markjensen on 18 Nov 2004 - 21:43
Eduard,

While I may not agree with your fundamental opinions, and I may question the facts you present, I don't find you to be mean nor irrational.

I think you may continue to fight your side for longer than the facts may justify, but you do look at facts presented and will concede points that are not in your favor. I don't think anyone in this thread was genuinely upset with anyone else, and it can be refreshing to participate in a lively discussion once in a while.

Mark
(2 replies) #24 Daugirdas on 18 Nov 2004 - 20:53
Just ENJOY it. It WILL be so sad when M$ is finally BANKRUPT. SCO is already dead, next head, please...
#24.1 Shining Arcanine on 18 Nov 2004 - 23:37
When was the last time you checked Microsoft's customers. The vast majority are people who need a user friendly operating system. Linux is probably the most unuser friendly operating system in the world. Microsoft isn't in any danger of losing much marketshare. If anyone is in danger of losing marketshare it is Unix and its deriatives.
#24.2 tapo on 19 Nov 2004 - 02:01
QUOTE
Just ENJOY it. It WILL be so sad when M$ is finally BANKRUPT.


Please don't spell it M$. It's really stupid sounding.

QUOTE
When was the last time you checked Microsoft's customers. The vast majority are people who need a user friendly operating system. Linux is probably the most unuser friendly operating system in the world. Microsoft isn't in any danger of losing much marketshare. If anyone is in danger of losing marketshare it is Unix and its deriatives.


This is partly true. In the short-term, Microsoft's customers will stay with...well....Microsoft. But as I said in my above post, Linux has extremely rapid development. Microsoft has a serious problem on their hands now when it comes to Linux servers. In 4 or so years, it'll be desktops.
#25 werejag on 18 Nov 2004 - 21:15
guess we know how the sco case is doing. SCO microsoft's little paid henchmen didnt do what they wanted so, now microsoft has to threaten us themself.

bring it on