Kazaa owners launch defense in file-share case
Posted by malebolgia on 01 December 2004 - 03:08 · 53 comments & 2797 views
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(5 replies)
#1 Posted by craZySoldier on 01 Dec 2004 - 03:15
- a store can include bootlegs the same way kazaa and other pear to pear networks can so lets close down and sue all stores because they can have bootlegs
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#1.2 Posted by todd` on 01 Dec 2004 - 03:51
- The story is different if the store does have bootlegs though.
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#1.4 Posted by SquareSoft0 on 01 Dec 2004 - 05:35
- What?
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#1.5 Posted by TC17 on 02 Dec 2004 - 18:52
- A better comparison is for example a gun manufacturer. They can provide guns, but they are not responsible for how its used.
The only thing that got Napster in trouble was because they had a central server where they stored the information on all the files. Plus they reached a plea agreement instead of an actual trial to see if they were guilty.
I'm not sure how Kazaa works.
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#2 Posted by craZySoldier on 01 Dec 2004 - 03:18
- this is the first thing i heard about spyware i mean kazaa in a year
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(8 replies)
#3 Posted by Cyranthus on 01 Dec 2004 - 03:20
- video recorders are one thing... but spyware bloated file sharing is another thing completely... this defense is weak.
besides, its not a question of whats better and whats obsolete, the purpose of kazaa is to share illegal files... for free. other than that i fail to see the legal purposes of kazaa.
and craZySoldier... there is a big difference between a store CAN have and a store DOES have bootleg videos... -
#3.1 Posted by DjmUK on 01 Dec 2004 - 03:54
- I totally agree there, in the end, KaZaA is used primarily for those who wish to share and download il-legal content - and that's all it will ever be used for:
- Videos
- Music
- Software
- Documents
I'm not even sure a handful of users use the software legally. Oh well, this case'll fail easily. -
#3.2 Posted by AustinM1983 on 01 Dec 2004 - 05:57
QUOTE video recorders are one thing... this defense is weak
really for what purpose do you use a video recorder (not player) other than to illegaly tape information presented on TV.... Ofcourse it is deemed OK because it is for personal use....
what about tapeing off the radio that is illegal... but once again mainly for personal use.
if the idea is that using a tool to copy information for personal use is acceptable then that is exactly what kazaa provides (mainly).
im sorry but i do see the grounds for this defense... otherwise producers of video recorders, caset recorders, etc. should also be accountable for there actions in providing a service that is mainly used for illegal activity.-
#3.3 Posted by Stef Nighthawk on 01 Dec 2004 - 07:50
- Radio & TV station bought broadcasting licenses for every show in order to bring the content legally to the viewers. So it is deemed OK to record these broadcasts as long as it used for personal use and not distributed.
Same goes for Kazaa, but how many filesharers are allowed to legally distribute their files thru this peer to peer network.
So yes, the video comparison is a weak defense.
If you want to keep the same analogy based on the VCR thingie then you could say that Kazaa is like a cable operator. But then again - cable operators pay for the distribution rights to the channels they put on their cablenet. Thus the authors of the shown contents are still paid for their efforts in entertaining us. -
#3.4 Posted by Magallanes on 01 Dec 2004 - 13:30
- NOPE!
you cannot record any emission of tv cause they are copyrighted for the tv channels AND NOT for the final users.
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#3.5 Posted by Cyranthus on 01 Dec 2004 - 21:34
- Ok, kazaa isnt a recording system anyway... its a network in which people share files... i dont see kazaa recording anything other than its spyware into my system. Sure when you copy a movie on tape or DVD, or even copy stuff from radio, its only for personal use, and even then, it is still illegal if you decide to mass market recordings... still, kazaa has no sort of copying device, it doesnt copy or 'record' anything, its just used to send all your files all over the place and download more of them.
kazaa is not for personal use, it is to share those files to everyone, which is exactly like copying a movie on tape and then make 200 more copies and then sell each one. So it IS a weak defense. -
#3.6 Posted by AustinM1983 on 02 Dec 2004 - 01:35
- id argue it is for personal use.... people get on and download what they want... its the same as any illegal recording except the median is different. There is no device as such to do the illegal act.... id say the majority of users are using kazaa for personal use and that there is not a high % of people downloading files and distributing them for profit....
i would say the only difference is that every user distributes their own "radio signal" making the ability for users to find the data they want to download far easier and broadening the availability of data.
The main difference is the data is available on demand not like previously where you had to wait for the data.... i think it will be an interesting case... but i do actually think that kazaa has some grounds to stand on especially under australian law. -
#3.7 Posted by Treefrog on 02 Dec 2004 - 02:25
- Guys, I think the point alot of you are missing is what "personal use" means. Google is your friend. Hint, "distribution", no matter for free or $$, is nowhere close to personal use. For those people that are logic challenged, personal use means you use it personally, NOT that you give it to everybody else to use.
All the same, I hate the RIAA and other such scum as much as anyone, and hope the case is at least interesting to read about.
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(2 replies)
#4 Posted by Gowcra on 01 Dec 2004 - 03:28
- Kazaa is the spawn of the earth, and should be shutdown JUST for its spyware. Dont make me get into misnamed files, fake songs or currupt files
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#4.1 Posted by Cyranthus on 01 Dec 2004 - 04:15
- i believe the term you were looking for is 'Kazaa is the bane of the earth' ...
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#5 Posted by habtro on 01 Dec 2004 - 03:34
- i dont think this will work....
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#6 Posted by nmeu on 01 Dec 2004 - 03:57
- why don't they just sue whoever invented copying files then? this is lameO
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#7 Posted by Hi! on 01 Dec 2004 - 04:01
- Ahh Kazaa, Gimme Spyware
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#8 Posted by webeagle12 on 01 Dec 2004 - 04:12
- I hope they suffer slow death, not P2P although, only kazaa
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(7 replies)
#9 Posted by SoulEata on 01 Dec 2004 - 04:42
- People still use Kazaa?
are they stupid? -
#9.1 Posted by neotool on 01 Dec 2004 - 06:16
- Yes.
I say let the RIAA sue Kazaa all they want, they are just beating a dead horse. The longer the record companies draw this out, the more money they lose. -
#9.2 Posted by SoulEata on 01 Dec 2004 - 06:34
- I cant believe it. I'm surprised theyre not attacking BitTorrent, Limewire, and whatever the hell else people use these days. I use something else
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#9.3 Posted by Myuu on 01 Dec 2004 - 06:59
- Because BitTorrent is different that KaZaA and it has a different way to access the information. BitTorrent itself cannot be touched, because it doesn't use a server. It's just an application. The end user acts as a server, and shares a Torrent file from his/her own computer. That file is created ALSO by the user, and the user chooses what he wants to share and who to share it with. Unlike KaZaA or any other P2P application, BitTorrent actually has a LOT of legal use. Just take for example the distribution of the "Red vs. Blue" episodes (RvB is a Halo-based comedy, which by the way, is too good). They use BitTorrent because that way, the community helps them by not drawing their bandwidth, and they don't have to spend too much on mantaining a server dedicated to hosting videos. Examples like that can be found all over the net. AnimeSuki.com is another example. They provide UNLICENSED Fansubs to many anime series through BitTorrent. As soon as a certain anime is licensed, AnimeSuki removes it from their website and their tracker. Everything is perfectly legal and clean that way.
I do realize, however, that there are way too many websites that use BT in illegal ways, and I too use them, sometimes way more than I'd like too. But all that is the choice and responsability of the hosts of such trackers or websites. The technology implied, that is, BitTorrent, cannot be touched. You don't sue Microsoft because programmers use Windows to create programs like KaZaA, do you? -
#9.4 Posted by SoulEata on 01 Dec 2004 - 07:02
- I dont use BT, but let's say I created a torrent hosting a new song. Then I put that torrent on a website. Isn't that illegal sharing of copyrighted material?
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#9.5 Posted by Stef Nighthawk on 01 Dec 2004 - 08:00
- Yes, but is is a LOT easier to track the torrent to the tracker site and ask the webspace provider to shut down the site. Tracker shut down, illegal content stopped. Same thing that happened when the content was presented on the webspace itself via HTTP.
though I still think that BT should be enhanced to have more security features -
#9.6 Posted by Alpha Binary on 01 Dec 2004 - 10:34
QUOTE #1.4 Reply by SoulEata on 01 Dec 2004 - 12:02
I dont use BT, but let's say I created a torrent hosting a new song. Then I put that torrent on a website. Isn't that illegal sharing of copyrighted material?
The .torrent file itself won't contain any part of the song you created. It is merely a meta file, or to be more specific a file containing hash data of file pieces, plus additional info about the tracker. The .torrent file itself alone is good for nothing.
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(2 replies)
#10 Posted by CAE11 on 01 Dec 2004 - 04:49
- The whole thing does seem just a little lame to me (read: clutching at straws). It's all well and good to go after Kazaa for facilitating the transfer of copyrighted materials but at the end of the day it is still the end user who is download files and sharing them.
I know the comparison might seem a little silly, but this seems to be like suing Ford or GM because their cars facilitate accidents and deaths. -
#10.1 Posted by MrCobra on 01 Dec 2004 - 06:11
- Not a silly analogy at all. Tobacco companies are being sued because people smoked thier products and died or suffer serious health problems. Alcohol manufactures are being sued because people die of liver disease. Gun manufactures are being sued because people get killed with guns.
Kazaa in itself should not be illegal. The actions people take while using it are another matter. I have a crowbar that is perfectly legal to have. It serves a useful purpose. Just because I can use it to break in to houses and cars, should it be made illegal?
My ramblings. Like it, hate it, or flame it. I don't care. -
#10.2 Posted by Magallanes on 01 Dec 2004 - 13:34
- "tomacco" company are not sued because they kill their own customers. Their industry are sued because they don't give any warning about it. Today every "lucky strike" have a big banner that say "if you suck it, then you can die".
Kazaa in opposite say "you only can share legal files, you are not authorized to put warez or ilegal files"..
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(2 replies)
#11 Posted by SunnyB on 01 Dec 2004 - 05:20
- Files can be downloaded via ftp, http, irc, etc.
Why don't they try sueing mIRC, Firefox, Bullet-Proof FTP, etc.?
I never use Kazaa. I use ftp or irc to steal music and movies.
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#11.1 Posted by MrCobra on 01 Dec 2004 - 06:09
- Give them time and the whole net will be illegal. B@st@rds want people to buy instead of steal, then lower prices.
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#11.2 Posted by Treefrog on 02 Dec 2004 - 02:33
QUOTE B@st@rds want people to buy instead of steal, then lower prices.
Show me when the record or film industry has ever lowered prices, regardless of sales. Music CD's sell way, way more than they did just a few years ago, but I sure haven't seen any drop in Music CD prices... in fact, it seems like they cost just the same as they did when they were first introduced, yet wouldn't you agree that the technology to create them has fallen dramatically?
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(1 reply)
#12 Posted by XP_01 on 01 Dec 2004 - 06:33
- ah what's the point, Kazaa is practically dead
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(3 replies)
#13 Posted by RA321 on 01 Dec 2004 - 07:08
- this might not be appropriate for this news post but what exactly are people using these days? other than bt? i mean a p2p type program. ive heard soulseek is decent, any recommendations?
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#13.1 Posted by Dirtie on 01 Dec 2004 - 10:27
- Yes definitely Soulseek, great program, has pretty much everything. Anything you don't find just use Shareaza for, another great ad/spyware free program.
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#13.2 Posted by triad_man on 01 Dec 2004 - 19:50
- I am a big Shareaza fan. It connects to three major networks and can be used for BT as well.
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#14 Posted by Jugalator on 01 Dec 2004 - 07:44
QUOTE doesn't differ from video recorders
Yes, since a video recorder doesn't support spreading copyrighted material.
A TV tuner app with a recording feature doesn't differ much though, but last time I checked no one had problems with those anyway.
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#15 Posted by garymill234 on 01 Dec 2004 - 09:59
- Considering the fact that Kazaa is making so much money from the pop-ups on their service. Couldn't they afford to have had legal staff come up with a more compelling argument than the one they used. A VCR is not spreading widespread piracy, while Kazaa is.
Last edited by 56606 on 01 Dec 2004 - 10:10
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#16 Posted by Dirtie on 01 Dec 2004 - 10:25
- Please just die Kazaa, you had your turn, but now you are a spyware-infested application of filth with no good purpose other than to ruin people's computers.
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(2 replies)
#17 Posted by Xionanx on 01 Dec 2004 - 11:30
- I know everyone hates Kazaa, but you need to look at this from a legal perspective. Every case that P2P networks loose is setting legal precedent for them to continue to loose.. Judges/Lawyers will site cases about "In the case of RIAA vs Kazaa blah blah.. Kazaa was found to be a contributing factor to piracy".. so "X other P2P app must also be a factor"..
So, it makes it hard for future file sharing apps to survive.
Of course a better defense then VCR's would be DVD Rental stores ='s filesharing.(Netflix/Blockbust/Hollywood Video/Movie Gallery/Moovies/Video Oasis/Insert Local Video Store). In effect, these stores are "Sharing" videos that end users can then make copies of. ILLEGALLY.. yet nobody thinks to shut them down... why? With quality encoding software, most of which is easily obtainable on the internet, anyone can make a GOOD copy of any DVD they rent.
In the past, the RIAA and the MPAA accepted the use of Tape Recorders and VCR's to record shows becuase it was a very lossy process(or at least was more accepting of). Each copy you made resulted in a lower quality output. With the advent of digital sound and video prcessing, the loss is no longer there (if you use the right settings = 0 loss). You can use those copies to make a limitless number of copies, all with the exact same quality.. no degradation. THAT is what they are really fighting. -
#17.1 Posted by Magallanes on 01 Dec 2004 - 13:38
- AFAIK :dvd copiers (software) are illegal, anyway, they think in it. Today you can buy a dvd-burner, usually they write only "half-original-dvd" (4gigs from 9 for the original dvd). Later dvd-burner allow to burn "full-dvd" but the media cost is stupidest! (almost too expensive that a original-and-legal-dvd).
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#17.2 Posted by Treefrog on 02 Dec 2004 - 02:51
QUOTE I know everyone hates Kazaa, but you need to look at this from a legal perspective. Every case that P2P networks loose is setting legal precedent for them to continue to loose.. Judges/Lawyers will site cases about "In the case of RIAA vs Kazaa blah blah.. Kazaa was found to be a contributing factor to piracy".. so "X other P2P app must also be a factor"..
So, it makes it hard for future file sharing apps to survive.
Well, lets see... hmm... I really can't think of a legitimate use for p2p file sharing. If you have legitimate apps to share, then fine. There are so many other avenues to distribute them that you really have no need to go p2p. You know p2p file sharing is used mainly for illegal files.. I know p2p file sharing is used mainly for illegal files, the RIAA knows p2p file sharing is used mainly for illegal files, kazaa writers know p2p is used mainly for illegal files.. hell I think pretty much everybody knows what p2p file sharing is for. That is why everybodies panties get in a knot, because they are going to get their "file source" taken away. Oh boo hoo. I hold a middle ground when it comes to.. um... questionable files, as I don't have a lot of respect for those that exclusively use p2p and never buy, nor do I have a lot of respect for the music industry that has talked about lowering the price of music cd's ever since the introduction of them, yet despite dramatically lowered cost to make a cd, the price has remained absolutely stagnant despite wildly increasing sales (yep, increasing even though they want to cry wolf that piracy is cutting into their profit and that is why they won't drop prices.. I call BS). I like to hear music I've not heard, to see if I like it, kinda like a friend playing a song for me. If I do, I then go buy the cd.. if it's still available. If not, I get what I can so I may listen now, and keep looking for a source for a legitimate cd (been waiting on one in particular that was out of print for many years.. the band that made it is making new copies available on their own site soon). When I get a cd, I rip a high quality copy for my own use (no I do not share my goodies) on portable player (in car) and computer. You will not find any original cd's in my car.. ever. The reason for this? I have had occasion to have my cd case, containing 60 cd's stolen out of my car. 60. Add that up yourself with your little calculator. That hurt. Badly.
BTW, I do not use p2p file sharing. It flat out sucks compared to "other" avenues and it wouldn't bother me one way or the other if a precedent were set against p2p utilities.. other than the fact that I hate the RIAA.. but that is beside the point.
Last edited by 58940 on 02 Dec 2004 - 03:00
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(2 replies)
#18 Posted by kaffra on 01 Dec 2004 - 13:33
- at least the attention is still on kazaa, next up bt
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#18.1 Posted by Magallanes on 01 Dec 2004 - 13:39
- Brittish Telecom (ISP) or BitTorrent? or both?
Anyways, exist p2p that only work in UDP protocol (untraceable), so p2p will rulz forever (if ipv6 allow udp)
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#19 Posted by TC17 on 02 Dec 2004 - 18:58
- You have to remember this trial is taking place in Australia, by their laws, not American laws.
File sharing network software has already been ruled LEGAL by several judges in America. I assume as long as they are not the ones providing the database of files on a server of their own.
But not everything on file sharing networks is illegal either... I've downloaded large demos of games that you sometimes can't find on websites for download because they are just too big.
Lawyer Tony Meagher was outlining his defense strategy on the second day of a civil case in which the Australian recording industry is suing Kazaa's owners for widespread copyright infringements by the global network's estimated 100 million members. Kazaa members download 3 billion files each month, record industry lawyers said Monday. Those files can include songs, movies and other copyrighted material.
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