It's Windows vs. Windows as Microsoft battles piracy
Posted by Daninku on 08 March 2005 - 06:28 · 61 comments & 1865 views
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(3 replies)
#1 Posted by Gergith on 08 Mar 2005 - 06:35
- i dont really know how anyone can be justified on flaming this decision, it is there right as any software developer would want to make money, we cant exactly blame them for that can we?
i personally thought it was enevitable with things like avalon on there way, oh well, guess im gonna stop updating ;-)
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#1.1 Posted by werejag on 08 Mar 2005 - 08:34
- arr matey neither can i
really who are they kidding. they been trying to prevent piracy since xp came out. guess what?
it didnt work!!!! -
#1.2 Posted by AJCrowley Esq on 08 Mar 2005 - 13:31
QUOTE i dont really know how anyone can be justified on flaming this decision
Yeah right, because people who pirate Windows never find a way to beat the latest anti piracy scheme, and it's not like legitimate users are the only ones who end up having to jump through hoops just to get their computer working with something that they actually paid for.
I resent such schemes, and will do everything within my power to boycott them. I made the mistake of buying Half Life 2 when it came out, and I remember forums full of people spouting the same "Great, now nobody will ever pirate this game, Valve is number one awesome!". Well, guess what....I paid for the game, and had to go through a painful activation process, and then have the CD in the drive every single time I wanted to play the game, or any of its mods. Funnily enough, people who waiting the day or so for the protection to be beated didn't have to go through any of this crap, they just got to install the game and play.
I've been hearing the same old "Now we have an unbeatable piracy protection scheme" garbage ever since I used to buy my games on audio cassette, and oddly enough, from Macrovision to CSS to Safedisc, Starforce and SecureROM, they've all been beaten in very little time.
Pirates never pay the price of anti-piracy schemes, legitimate customers do. The only people that "wouldn't be justified in flaming this decision" are the people that don't pay for the products.-
#1.3 Posted by Digital Punk on 08 Mar 2005 - 23:13
- I agree, especially with the HL2 bit. Damn that p***ed me off.
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(1 reply)
#2 Posted by divertom15 on 08 Mar 2005 - 06:40
- if your gernerated PID is one step ahead of the microsoft blacklist...
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#3 Posted by werejag on 08 Mar 2005 - 06:43
- what makes them think they can stop the piracy now?
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#3.1 Posted by sphbecker on 08 Mar 2005 - 14:33
- I think everyone understands that they will never stop piracy, but the harder they make it the fewer people will do it. Before product activation it was common for very un-skilled computer users to “share” software; now pirating is limited to those with a higher skill level. The more MS tries to stop this the harder it will be to maintain a working illegal copy of Windows and more of those people will switch to Linux or break down and pay for their software.
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#3.2 Posted by werejag on 09 Mar 2005 - 01:25
- its getting ezer not harder to pirate microsoft stuff. the joke 6 pack is learning quickly where to go to get the proper infomation.
QUOTE pirating is limited to those with a higher skill level.
no skill is needed
The more MS tries to stop this the ezer it will be to maintain a working illegal copy of Windows.
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(4 replies)
#4 Posted by ju5si on 08 Mar 2005 - 06:43
QUOTE (though they will still be able to use the Automatic Update feature built into Windows).
So doesn't this mean that people who own pirated copies of windows can go on using them as they have so far? If auto-update is for everyone then why for heavens sake would anyone change to legit copy?
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#4.1 Posted by ssvegeta384 on 08 Mar 2005 - 07:08
- Exactly. This announcement makes no sence, it doesn't really stop pirates, it just forces them to use AU.
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#4.2 Posted by AJCrowley Esq on 08 Mar 2005 - 13:34
- Well, the best reason that I can think of for this decision is that pirated copies of Windows that aren't kept updated have a tendency to infect legitimate copies of Windows that aren't updated. It's in Microsoft's best interest to keep everyone updated, pirate or not. Windows already has something of a reputation for its third rate security, the last thing they need is people who steal their software screwing up people who don't because they aren't updated.
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#4.3 Posted by werejag on 08 Mar 2005 - 13:40
- accually i lean towards the pirated copies are usually more updated than normal joe 6 pack copies.
becuase the people who get a copy of the os thru other than legal means tend to know what the heck they are doing compared to the morons paying 200+ dollars -
#4.4 Posted by Digital Punk on 08 Mar 2005 - 23:15
- I agree. Its usually e average Joe who lets his PC become a zombie box, not the more tech savvy pirate.
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(6 replies)
#5 Posted by Stef Nighthawk on 08 Mar 2005 - 06:55
- hmmm, an other way to diminish the amount of unlicensed copies would be to lower the price!
400€ is way to much for an OS.
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#5.1 Posted by werejag on 08 Mar 2005 - 07:08
- nah they will higher the price. as i expect them to do
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#5.2 Posted by sphbecker on 08 Mar 2005 - 14:27
- That is a little like saying that fewer people would steal cable TV if only it cost less; that is simply not true. At any rate, Windows has been getting cheaper over the years. One, they have not raised the price in a very long time so inflation has reduced the real cost. Two, with more time between each OS the product you paid for spends more time at Microsoft's top level of support (ie adding things like they did with SP2 and such).
The OEM prices for Windows are like $60 for Home and $90 for Pro. If you buy a computer from Dell or HP that is the price they are rolling into the computer (with a little mark-up I'm sure). If you are building your own computer then you should look at getting an OEM license (read the rules carefully to make sure you are buying a legit copy, there is a lot of fraud out there). The retail versions are really only for those who need to upgrade. I don't know why they even both with the Full Retail version; no one has a reason to pay that much for it because they should either be eligible for the upgrade or the OEM version. (I guess it is to punish those who bought Lindows computers…) -
#5.3 Posted by Richardo on 08 Mar 2005 - 14:35
- $60 for home and $90 for Pro? Are these US dollars? Even in OEM form Jo Blo can't buy at these prices. Sure, if he's buying a good quantity, but one or two for the PC's he's building? Try $93 for Home and $145 for Pro.
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#5.4 Posted by markjensen on 08 Mar 2005 - 14:58
- Yeah, the quoted prices of $60 and $90 seem to be made up (or based on heresay). Even if they were accurate, they certainly are NOT being passed on to the customer.
Using Dell as an example (since that was the first OEM he specifically mentioned), I see here that they charge an additional $63 to upgrade from XP Home to XP Pro.
The lesson here: don't believe 'information' passed out by people who aren't accurate. -
#5.5 Posted by antareus on 08 Mar 2005 - 16:59
QUOTE nah they will higher the price. as i expect them to do
You mean raise?
Microsoft's products may not be worth the money they sell them for, but they are marked up to increase the perceived value. Kind of like how Apple prices...
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(1 reply)
#6 Posted by RangerLG on 08 Mar 2005 - 07:08
- Hasn't this already been covered ad-nauseum? They said they were going to do this late last year, early this year, and now. Just friendly reminders I guess.
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#7 Posted by S7R1K3R on 08 Mar 2005 - 07:10
- its not even that if they jus lowered the price im sure more people would not think twice about it an buy it. i think that most people do buy it but have more than 1 computer an they cant afford to buy more than 1 so they just lend it out or install it on several. thats the problem the price
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(2 replies)
#8 Posted by theyarecomingforyou on 08 Mar 2005 - 07:26
- Well, if they keygens didn't work with Windows Genuine Advantage Program then I imagine the pirates would be concerned, but that's not the case.
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#9 Posted by LVirus on 08 Mar 2005 - 08:05
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(11 replies)
#10 Posted by imcrazydammit on 08 Mar 2005 - 08:38
- I will never ever pay for Windows. I'm a pirate.
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#10.1 Posted by |Maxim| on 08 Mar 2005 - 09:24
- i believe the word you are after is 'tightass' not pirate
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#10.2 Posted by FloatingFatMan on 08 Mar 2005 - 12:12
- I believe the word he's looking for is actually "thief"...
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#10.3 Posted by werejag on 08 Mar 2005 - 12:13
- |maxim|
you really need to stop going to non-straight bars your coments are being clouded by your desires -
#10.4 Posted by AJCrowley Esq on 08 Mar 2005 - 13:36
- Well, if you're not old enough to have a job, and daddy won't pay, that's fair enough. It's not like Microsoft lose anything from not having such an awesome customer as yourself. I'm sure that if the situation ever arose where you couldn't use a pirated copy of Windows, you'd just switch to a free OS, then complain that you're not smart enough to configure it, and how outrageous it is to charge for tech support on a free product.
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#10.5 Posted by werejag on 08 Mar 2005 - 13:42
- dont know who this was directed at but having a job and paying for the os are two diffent things
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#10.6 Posted by AJCrowley Esq on 08 Mar 2005 - 15:37
QUOTE dont know who this was directed at but having a job and paying for the os are two diffent things
Indeed, and it wasn't directed at you (unless you made an invisible comment about not paying for Windows), though it could be if it made you happy. It was directed at people that boast of piracy. It is my opinion that piracy is in many cases not a problem, for example, I don't think that the price of MS Office is reasonable for home users, yet sticking them with Works is just weak. Though there is a free (and superior imo) alternative available, Microsoft really lose no revenue from a home user that uses an unlicensed copy of Office, which they would never have paid for had it not been available to them through "other means".
That said, to boast about piracy in the manner demonstrated here is just idiotic, and gives pirates a bad name.-
#10.7 Posted by C_Guy on 08 Mar 2005 - 17:02
- HUH?
"gives pirates a bad name"... ummm YEAH piracy is illegal and unjustifiable. How do you propose to give pirates a "good name"?
How many times must this argument go around NeoWin... if you can't pay for something you are not legally entitled to just take it. Do you think if you needed a pair of jeans but couldn't afford $80 you could jsut walk into GAP and take them home without paying? It's no different than downloading a copy of Windows for yourself without compensating the people who programmed it for you.
Whether Microsoft takes a loss is irrelevant beause at this point in time piracy is illegal. Whether the price is fair or not is also irrelevant. If you could get Office Pro 2003 for $100 would a pirate say "oh, well the price came down so I will pay even though I could just take this freebie here"...not likely.
If Microsoft's consumers (consumers meaning people who legally acquire software) felt that the price of their products is unfair (and I am not saying it's cheap because I really think MS should lower their prices) then they wouldn't sell and they would be forced to lower their price. However, between people who manage to afford it and those who choose to steal it, the marketplace is satisfied enough that MS doesn't have to lower their prices. Theoretically, if piracy were impossible, Windows and Office wouldn't be nearly so expensive if MS wanted to maintain their market share.
Piracy has absolutely corrupted the way the free market works and forced honest consumers to pay a very inflated price for their software.
Thats why pirates will always have "a bad name". -
#10.8 Posted by AJCrowley Esq on 08 Mar 2005 - 17:20
QUOTE How many times must this argument go around NeoWin
Keep up on your meds there sparky, I'm not the one arguing.
Theft of a tangiable item is quite different from theft of an intangiable. If I steal a pair if jeans from Sprawlmart, then they're out by the cost of the jeans, whereas if I download an album which I would never have bought, then nobody has any claim to have lost anything.
In fact, I'd be willing to go one step further to put your half baked ideas to rest. I'd go so far as to say that in many cases, piracy HELPS the associated industries on an individual level. For example, I make a point of buying anything that I feel is worth the money, the criteria being that if I had it taken away, and couldn't get another copy by "alternative means", then would I buy a copy? If the answer is yes, I invariably do.
The piracy of mp3s (which technically isn't piracy in my case, as the laws of my country permit me to freely download music without fear of retribution from various industry gestapos) in my case has benefited far more than it could have possibly harmed - the harmed being albums I would have bought, thought were garbage and been unable to return, then beneficiaries being artists that I would never have even heard of had I need seen their works available for download, and have thereafter gone out and bought their entire catalog of works. The same is applicable to movies and software in my case, and that of a huge number of people with whom I associate online. I wouldn't care to hazard a guess as to the ACTUAL loss of income suffered by any industry because of piracy, but I can assure you that it's not even a fraction of what they'd have you believe.
Bottom line - makers of quality content have done nothing but benefit from piracy within my social circle. Inflated prices existed long before the Internet, and will continue to exist if by any miracle piracy is ever eradicated, it's simply the way of things. Since many who don't pay for content insist it's because of the inflated prices, the honest consumer can also only benefit in the end - there's been more than one occasion that I've seen the price of music lowered, and the widespread opinion that it's because the price is artificially inflated, and the means to circumvent systems designed to juice the consumer for every single penny eventually mean that for any such industry to survive, it will have to defer to the will of "The People". If, for example, the music industry hadn't started to get in on the digital music download scene, and offer semi-reasonable pricing, their days could well have been numbered, and I'd be willing to bet you that continued piracy and the insistance that overpricing is to blame will only lead to better and better pricing of such items, with which you will see the level of piracy reduced proportionately.
Still, you can't be blamed for spouting the same tired and weak arguments that you hear from people with seven figure salaries, as I'm sure thinking for yourself is well outside the realms of your mental capabilities. It's ok though, just because I'm so damn gracious, I accept your apology and retraction of all previous statements in advance.
(Was that arguing? Perhaps it was, but I didn't start it
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#10.9 Posted by C_Guy on 08 Mar 2005 - 17:55
- I'm sorry that you feel stealing is ok just because, as your "logic" goes, you wouldn't have bought it anyway. Try arguing that in front of a judge and see what meds he or she is on and then argue that and see how far you get.
In fact, if you do some research, you will find that even laws in Canada state that piracy (a form of theft) is, yep, you got it, illegal.
If your intellect is so superior then why are you trying to justify a criminal activity that you know is wrong? You have nothing to fear because in Canada you are indeed protected by your ISP and for the most part, you can get away with it, so don't waste your breath defending yourself. If you're careful, you won't suffer any consequenes for your illegal activity. But if you can sleep easier at night by defending yourself and slamming Neowinians and their logical and rational opinions, then by all means, do it.
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#10.10 Posted by AJCrowley Esq on 08 Mar 2005 - 22:50
- I don't feel the need to defend myself particularly, though just for the record, I don't steal, I evaluate so that I can make an informed choice on my purchases, which constitutes a lot more than most people who don't feel the need to check something out before they buy it.
I know that piracy is illegal in Canada, but if you went into the specifics in your obviously hurried and skimmed over research, you'd realize that Canadians pay a tax on blank media that goes to the recording industries, in exchange for which, people are not prosecuted for downloading mp3s, and as you say, even if that were not the case, Canadians are not usually subject to the same gestapo tactics as you seem to so happily endorse.
I'm not sure where you get the "defending yourself and slamming Neowinians and their logical and rational opinions" part from, but I thought, as I would imagine that most people reading, that I was providing a logical argument against your baseless assertions. So go ahead, pretend that your "no room for debate" and baseless point is reasonable if it makes you feel superior, there's an old psychological principle that states that those that feel the need to empower themselves by attempting to belittle people by claiming moral superiority without any real reason feel the need to empower themselves because they are lacking in self esteem for assorted other reasons. You're obviously upset, it's ok, there are people that can help you, and eventually lead you back to a normal life without the outbursts, though I doubt that they can help you recover your senses of either reason or humour. -
#10.11 Posted by C_Guy on 08 Mar 2005 - 23:38
- "those that feel the need to empower themselves by attempting to belittle people by claiming moral superiority without any real reason feel the need to empower themselves because they are lacking in self esteem for assorted other reasons"
Thanks so much for showing us the best example of that here at Neowin. Much appreciated.
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(2 replies)
#11 Posted by mrk on 08 Mar 2005 - 09:35
- why block web downloads only and not automatic updates?
Lawl.... -
#11.1 Posted by shao on 08 Mar 2005 - 11:22
- why? because you can get numerous addons / feature packs / updates from the microsoft website which are not offered via automatic updates. eg, movie maker, eg patches which are not critical updates.
lawl back at ya -
#11.2 Posted by Digital Punk on 08 Mar 2005 - 23:16
- Movie maker....... Laaaaawwwwwl.
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#12 Posted by sting3r on 08 Mar 2005 - 10:18
- Bleh... i get OEM copies -
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#13 Posted by scoobydoobie on 08 Mar 2005 - 11:51
QUOTE its not even that if they jus lowered the price im sure more people would not think twice about it an buy it
last time I looked a dvd movie cost about $15.00 but movies are still widley pirated...flawed logic-
#13.1 Posted by werejag on 08 Mar 2005 - 12:17
- last i looked we was talking windows, not movies.
each item that is sold has its own proper selling point. for windows it should be less than it is now , for movies its another price, for audio its another.
you can not compare other products to what price windows should be to stop piracy
understand matey -
#13.2 Posted by AJCrowley Esq on 08 Mar 2005 - 13:38
QUOTE last time I looked a dvd movie cost about $15.00 but movies are still widley pirated...flawed logic
Totally, because a movie has far more long term value than an operating system. You'll get maybe 12 hours of entertainment out of a DVD if you really love the film, I doubt you'd get 5 minutes out of an OS, I mean, who uses a computer these days anyway?
Last edited by 8585 on 08 Mar 2005 - 22:54
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#14 Posted by CubanPete on 08 Mar 2005 - 13:42
- To be honest, the only reason why windows is so popular is because its been pirated by home users some of whom cant afford to pay the price MS charges. Cutting down on these pirates is simply going to give linux a foot hold, if people use linux in there homes companies are going to be more inclined to use it and before you know it, MS have shot them selves in the foot!
But hey its there choice!
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#15 Posted by Randall_Lind on 08 Mar 2005 - 13:48
- Autpupdate is for secruity udatess only. I guess if you need the lastest directX etc you are sol. Then again whatever happen to AutoPatcher the monthly windows update site? Where you could download updates in a single exe and burn to cd or extract to a folder?
They are still up.
http://www.autopatcher.com/
Last edited by 50903 on 08 Mar 2005 - 13:54
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(2 replies)
#16 Posted by Richardo on 08 Mar 2005 - 14:46
- There is a theory that Microsoft has traditionally "allowed" its products to be pirated to gain entrys into new/emerging software markets, just to get people used to using that software so they don't switch to its competitors, or they will give the software away for free (think Media player, Internet Explorer) *just to get people used to using it*. It worked with windows and office, now everyone is using it and its pretty much a closed format so no-one can change. (Within reason).
Markets that Microsoft aren't so dominant in, they don't use activation or anything, (Money 2005) just a regular CD key that you can give to your friend, so that everyone starts to use that product and Microsoft gets a monopoly again. When everyone is on MS stuff, and can' t change, they cut out the casual piracy (activation, validation) and reap the rewards of increased sales. -
#16.1 Posted by AJCrowley Esq on 08 Mar 2005 - 16:04
- It's a reasonably sound theory. It's not the first time I've thought it, but I don't recall reading it anywhere before. Microsoft aren't where they are because they make good software or innovate, they're where they are because of their shrewd and often questionable business tactics.
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#17 Posted by BuzzFriendly on 08 Mar 2005 - 17:38
- What an absolute waste of time and resources. Why?
Activation failed and doesn't work to prevent piracy
Cost money for MS to develop and implement and furthermore support. Cost is passed on to legitimate customers. Pirates however are unaffected.
This will fail as well Why?
Automatic updates still work so patches are not a big deal not to mention there or several other ways to get patches so this is a waste of time and money that you guess it will be passed to legitimate customers. I read a few post where people said you would no be able to get “features” theme packs 9who cars really) direct x etc etc. To that I say BAH. Direct X can be downloaded in thousands of places legitimately and comes with most games anyway. Then there is the free side of MSDN where you can download things as well I can go on and on but the point is the same it is a waste of time and money and anyone savvy enough to have gotten a copy of bootleg copy of XP and managed to install it would surely be able to figure out how to get free theme packs and direct x from MS. This only people punished is the legitimate users.
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(2 replies)
#18 Posted by Erich on 09 Mar 2005 - 00:53
- Had I never pirated Pink Floyd, Metallica, etc. Then this day I wouldn't have been to a Metallica concert and bought Pink Floyd tshirts etc.
If I didn't download 24 episodes every week, I wouldn't have bought Season 2 on DVD.
If I didn't DL Doom3 before it came out, I might have bought it.
The way I see it, I'm supporting the artists which I deem worthy of my money. -
#18.1 Posted by markjensen on 09 Mar 2005 - 03:59
- I am sure that if you wrote them a letter stating how you pirate their stuff in the off-chance that you might actually purchase something from them at a later time, they won't respond with a "thank you" note...
Not a valid justification. -
#18.2 Posted by Erich on 09 Mar 2005 - 05:35
- Fine, I from here on I won't pirate anything, but I guarantee you that I'm not gonna buy a cd before I hear it, I'm not gonna buy a game before I play it and I'm not going to pay for tickets to go to a concert of a band that I don't know their music. I'll just sit on my computer and post on neowin while saving alot of money. And now nobody can complain, JOY!
BTW, I think I am going to write a letter to them, I'm kind of interested in what sort of responce I will get.
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(1 reply)
#19 Posted by TC17 on 09 Mar 2005 - 06:47
- I paid for my WindowsXP, yet I run a cracked version due to the hassle last time Microsoft stopped letting me reactivate my key. And it was a huge hassle, and wasted time out of my life to reactivate it.
Microsoft eventually will drive everyone to Linux.
And this doesn't even take into account the amount of money MS has stolen from me, in overpriced software, or hardware that they have given up on over the years that have become worthless junk thanks to them abandoning it.
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#19.1 Posted by CalebTG on 10 Mar 2005 - 11:06
- Same here.
I consider myself to be an avid beta tester of various thing, and in doing so, you often need to change hardware. I remember I once disabled my Raid controller (and hence drives) which I had in my machine which were not windows required drives.
I had to call them and get a stupid key to reactivate my copy of Windows, which at the time was a terrible inconvenience. Once a key fails, they have virtually NO web support in restoring a key, you have to call them, which is not something I associate with owning a working operating system.
They need to find a better way to validate by hardware, I don't know why they don't just go by harddrive IDs. Sure, they are removable in some cases, but no matter how you look at it, theres going to be problems, but some less than others. If I put Windows on a new Hard Drive, would be less reluctant to be angry, but when I just change hardware not related to windows operating normally, it does just that, angers me.
So I'll say it: I use a pirated copy of Windows XP Pro
But I also own a legit copy of it.... I feel a hassle free OS is part of what I purchased, which is why I use the pirated copy.
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#20 Posted by amitpagarwal on 09 Mar 2005 - 09:40
- so that means no pc-magazines would carry windows updates or kb files ?
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(1 reply)
#21 Posted by MrMB on 09 Mar 2005 - 19:09
- wouldn't it be nice if windows xp was free for home use and they could simply make money from their corporate customers.
Those with unlicensed copies of Windows will be blocked from getting both add-ons to the OS and security patches through Microsoft's download site (though they will still be able to use the Automatic Update feature built into Windows).
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