Rival says Microsoft unready to obey European order
Posted by malebolgia on 23 March 2005 - 23:55 · 68 comments & 4715 views
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(1 reply)
#1 Posted by DigitalDude on 23 Mar 2005 - 23:57
- and who accually cares what real networks thinks anymore? lol
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#2 Posted by swift_gti on 23 Mar 2005 - 23:59
- I wish real networks would just go crawl under a rock somewhere and stop trying to use the law to stifle other companys.. just because their own software isn't any good!
Lets face it, if Real Player was better.. then people might use it over WMP and other alternatives
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#3 Posted by Dan C on 24 Mar 2005 - 00:03
- Go and rot in hell Real Networks.
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#4 Posted by FuricTrax on 24 Mar 2005 - 00:28
- This is a pointless waste of both the EUs and Microsofts time.
If people want to use another media player then they can. I'm pretty much the only one of my mates who uses Windows Media Player!
The Media Player free version fo Windows still allows you to install it for free anway!
And yeah...Real Player ...I don't like it! It is more intrusive the Windows MP anytime!
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(3 replies)
#5 Posted by sodapop on 24 Mar 2005 - 00:31
- Real software use to be included with windows. So was the option to not install cirtain Microsoft software during a fresh install. I think Microsoft is in the wrong here for these reasons. Or at least I would like the option to not install a number of things during a fresh install, without relying on 3rd party programs like XPLite and nLite which may be harmful.
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#5.1 Posted by eilegz on 24 Mar 2005 - 05:54
- agree if microsoft do this they could save time, money, less problems and what its more important restore the competition
Microsoft got its advantage and real of course like any competitor wont be happy anyways but if microsoft do the things right in the first place this its not an issue -
#5.2 Posted by rm20010 on 24 Mar 2005 - 05:59
- About Real software included with Windows, I recall seeing the first version of the Real Player in the IE5 folder. It was just like Sound Recorder, minus the recording capability. But it wasn't bloated, it was only a few KBs
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#5.3 Posted by threedaysdwn on 24 Mar 2005 - 07:49
- Well, the guys that started Real used to work for Microsoft.
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(1 reply)
#6 Posted by Porp on 24 Mar 2005 - 00:55
- RealPlayer sucks.
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#6.1 Posted by DeepThought on 24 Mar 2005 - 23:18
- If this was any other thread I'd call you a troll, but as it happens I share the same feeling in the exact same way. When I was reading the article, all I could think was that even if MS forced users to install Real with the OS they'd still not see an increase in RealPlayer users.
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(2 replies)
#7 Posted by kaffra on 24 Mar 2005 - 00:57
- Stupid people at Real, i will never install your junk, even if wmp isnt there by default.
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#7.1 Posted by leothar on 24 Mar 2005 - 07:47
- Exactly. I'd rather have WMP than RealPlayer.
God bless Winamp -
#7.2 Posted by threedaysdwn on 24 Mar 2005 - 07:48
- Maybe Apple is behind this...
No one is going to give up Windows just because they don't like IE or WMP.
But if Windows came with RealPlayer integrated I'd be running for the door.
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#8 Posted by neufuse on 24 Mar 2005 - 01:04
- real stinks anymore... if anyone should complain you'd think apple would be with quicktime and itunes and stuff since they are a way bigger threat to MS now then real...
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#9 Posted by Jugalator on 24 Mar 2005 - 01:36
- lol
Real should let EU do their harrassing job with Microsoft alone... They seem to be doing that perfectly fine on their own, and I doubt EU would let MS not complying to their judgements pass just like that, looking at how much they've nitpicked and generally came up with silly rulings in the past. *sigh* I'm a member of the EU, but that doesn't imply I agree with everything the european commission does.
It simply seem to come down to: Real makes a crappy product and they must seek ways to "level" the competition to give them a chance. Their intentions shine through a bit too easily this time IMHO...
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#10 Posted by PseudoRandomDragon on 24 Mar 2005 - 01:53
- If they went thru all that trouble to remove WMP just to have Real installed by default, that would really suck. Real is just as bad as WMP
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#11 Posted by castor_troyuk on 24 Mar 2005 - 02:12
- If the guys at Real spent as much time improving their software as they do bitching at MS , then perhaps their player may be used more. Why can't the realise that noone uses real because it sucks, not because they have WMP installed already, I don't use WMP for anything, doesn't bother me that it's there, and could care less to remove it.
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(5 replies)
#12 Posted by threedaysdwn on 24 Mar 2005 - 03:13
- EU: Remove all traces of WMP from Windows immediately
MS: But then stuff won't work.
EU: We don't care.
MS: Well... fine... whatever, here you go. Hope you like it.
...
EU: We have tried your new product. When we double-click on video files, nothing happens.
MS: Great, glad you like it.
EU: No, we don't want the version without media functionality to have less functionality than the version with media functionality. And a shrubbery.
Real: No one will download our software... waaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.. It must be Microsoft's fault, even though millions of people download winamp and iTunes and QuickTime and foobar and musicmatch (etc. etc.). WAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH -
#12.1 Posted by Sierra Sonic on 24 Mar 2005 - 03:18
- Exactly.
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#12.4 Posted by PseudoRandomDragon on 25 Mar 2005 - 04:07
- Not exactly. You didn't read the full article. Basically MS also deleted stuff that allows media players to function with word documents and some web sites, so basically in removing WMP they broke some stuff that breaks Real player as well.
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#12.5 Posted by threedaysdwn on 25 Mar 2005 - 04:15
QUOTE Not exactly. You didn't read the full article. Basically MS also deleted stuff that allows media players to function with word documents and some web sites, so basically in removing WMP they broke some stuff that breaks Real player as well.
I read the article. All it does is demonstrate their gross misunderstanding of how software works.
You do not understand the problem. The problem is... Countless software programs implement the freely accessible Windows Media Player COM controls that are included with Windows. These are software libraries that allow programs to tell the OS to playback audio and video files. Microsoft Office relies on this functionality to allow embedded playback of media. Microsoft Office will NEVER use Real Player to playback media. Not on any system.
They're complaining that, when removing WMP from a system, programs that rely on WMP no longer can provide media functions.
That's like removing DirectX and complaining that Unreal Tournament won't use MESA which you installed instead. Or removing GTK and complaining that it won't instead use QT just because you have it installed.
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(3 replies)
#13 Posted by el22 on 24 Mar 2005 - 03:53
QUOTE The second version, installed with a rival alternative to Media Player, is supposed to be introduced in the next few weeks. 
I hope I got that wrong...-
#13.1 Posted by mx3 on 24 Mar 2005 - 05:32
- Yeah, I'm a little confused there too
I can understand making MS unbundle the app (though like everyone has already said, they should just give you options 98 style) but I really don't understand forcing them to include competitors' software. And if they have to include one, then why not all of the rest?
Hopefully I just read that wrong. -
#13.2 Posted by leothar on 24 Mar 2005 - 07:50
- Yeah.. why does it have to be bundled at all? And why not Winamp or iTunes/QuickTime?
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#13.3 Posted by PseudoRandomDragon on 25 Mar 2005 - 04:02
- Yeah if they are going to bundle media as well they might as well use a half decent one like WinAmp or QT (which I both don't like either )
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#14 Posted by hosebeast on 24 Mar 2005 - 05:24
- As if Real couldn't simply re-add the registry entries as part of their own install. They already add more junk into my registry than I want!
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#15 Posted by mx3 on 24 Mar 2005 - 05:27
- With the whole thing over Real and their "Harmony" program to crack iTunes DRM, the fact that they make horrible software, and now this, does anyone like Real anymore? I have never liked their media player and I honestly don't know of anybody who does...
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(2 replies)
#16 Posted by imtoomuch on 24 Mar 2005 - 05:38
- Holy crap. Is the EU serious? They will drag Microsoft around until they feel like leaving them alone. This is no longer about competition. It's more of a power trip. I just don't get it at all.
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#16.1 Posted by gameguy on 24 Mar 2005 - 05:51
- I've always considered it a power trip... There's nothing whatsoever stopping any of the millions of Windows users from using something besides WMP.
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#16.2 Posted by MegaManXcalibur on 24 Mar 2005 - 06:09
- I don't think its so much a power trip as a money trip. As long as they can say Microsoft isn't complying they can fine them.
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#17 Posted by rm20010 on 24 Mar 2005 - 05:48
QUOTE competitors that were asked to examine the program said on Tuesday.
If the 'competitors' mentioned here is RealNetworks, then I'm not surprised as to why they're not satisfied with this stripped down version of Windows XP. Besides, their player performs so damn sluggishly on my computer - I even thought that the player used a HTML based interface
It's a good thing Real Alternative exists 
Before Real can go and bullcrap about their player not working properly on this version, get some other companies to install their player on this version of Windows XP. Then we'll see what happens.
...Otherwise, I wouldn't care much if this version of Windows XP came out - I don't even live in Europe, and I already use XP. And I'm basically happy with WMP10.
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(2 replies)
#18 Posted by Ideas Man on 24 Mar 2005 - 05:57
- I read on another news site that they tested it and when they attempted to play a video file in Microsoft Word, and it refused to work, the EU once again blamed Microsoft for "registry tampering".
This really shows the level of technical knowledge the EU posesses, they force Microsoft to take out WMP i.e. the COMMON CODEBASE for multimedia playback in Windows, lots of programs use it becase it saves bundling a full media playback facility with your program. Programs like Microsoft Office, MSIE, Windows, and a huge list of developer's programs, they all use the WMP codbase because it's a COMMON CODEBASE or set of APIs that programs can use to add multimedia capabilities to their programs.
By taking this out, Word can't play the video because the codebase required to play it is absent, then Microsoft is accused of "tinkering" with the registry to force it not to work.
Grow up EU! This is obviously a field you know nothing about, computer life is a lot more complicated than flicking a switch. If you take something out of an already working system, then there will be side affects.
Also note, remember how this all started, it was Real crying over their stupid bullsh*t software. -
#18.1 Posted by IBlender on 24 Mar 2005 - 06:12
- yep
Now all the software will ship with (or require) Media Player Redistributable(s). -
#18.2 Posted by threedaysdwn on 24 Mar 2005 - 07:44
- Oh dear god...
So yeah... basically it has nothing to do with the registry, but rather with the fact that programs like Word are built against the WMP COM control.
I mean, what developer writing a (word processor / web browser / whatever) wants to write their own codec-handling media playback code? Not me.
WMP is basically the standard Windows library for playing back media. Take that out and of course stuff is going to break.
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(6 replies)
#19 Posted by IBlender on 24 Mar 2005 - 06:13
- It seems more like EU vs US.
RealNetworks:
Today, hundreds of millions of RealPlayers have been downloaded throughout the world take advantage of RealNetworks, Inc. world-class media creation, delivery and playback technology.
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#19.1 Posted by Ideas Man on 24 Mar 2005 - 06:22
QUOTE world-class media creation, delivery and playback technology.
Bahahahahahahahaha 
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#19.2 Posted by threedaysdwn on 24 Mar 2005 - 07:46
- Wow, that almost made it sound like Real makes media creation/delivery/playback solutions... and not spyware-ridden bloatware that intentionally makes itself ridiculously difficult to remove.
Someone could be seriously misled! -
#19.3 Posted by SquareSoft0 on 24 Mar 2005 - 08:39
- Real has hundreds of millions of employees!?
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#19.4 Posted by Ideas Man on 24 Mar 2005 - 09:45
- No, it's just a bit of "registry tweaking" to get the download count up Real high to make it look like it's more popular than it really is.
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#19.5 Posted by TwoTailedFox on 24 Mar 2005 - 15:46
- Real truly has a hundred million employees... including those bot-possessed PC's that have Realplayer installed
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#19.6 Posted by SquareSoft0 on 25 Mar 2005 - 00:46
- Christ, how many CYDers gotta buzz my kill here... wait'a'minute...
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#20 Posted by Fighter-X on 24 Mar 2005 - 06:42
- Screw all this, many europeans probably have many copies of winXP with WMP. All microsoft has to do is just pull winXP from the market. Then Real can go bankrupt and we will all be happy.
yea i know that won't work. I also dont get why microsoft is forced to put in a media player. I mean its microsoft's product. Its better if its optional.
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(1 reply)
#21 Posted by SquareSoft0 on 24 Mar 2005 - 08:40
- Wow, everybody was supporting the Commission's decisions to the death just a month ago.
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#22 Posted by jeff_pony on 24 Mar 2005 - 09:24
- If they are going to bundle real player it would make more sense to make MS WMP utilise the real player codec, quicktime codec, etc. The only problem is that these companys realy on getting the player install for the advertising money, though it would fix the media server issues.
I still think the better option would have been to get MS to strip the Windows media codec from WMP, so that users could at least play some files, just not those served from windows media servers (without downloading that codec). It would mean all the media server sellers have an equal footing when it comes to having to download a codec to watch content with their codec.
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#23 Posted by tiddlie on 24 Mar 2005 - 10:58
- So if they strip it from XP and say all future versions of windows in the EU, does that mean a) we can still download it from Microsoft and intall optionally, b) alternatively could import / download a US CD to use with our lisences to install media player WITH windows, c) have a non working version of windows off the CD?
This sounds ridiculous. I'm no big fan of media player instead using winamp, but for ripping and any videos i need to watch it comes in very handy.
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#24 Posted by tiwaris on 24 Mar 2005 - 12:23
- Someone in EU definitly has some grudge against the vole.
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(8 replies)
#25 Posted by capeche on 24 Mar 2005 - 13:28
- I hope the EU takes them to the cleaners!
It's about time MS stopped abusing its monopoly status! -
#25.1 Posted by Skyfrog on 24 Mar 2005 - 15:03
- Microsoft DID obey their stupid ruling, they took out Windows Media Player. Now the EU is whining because media files will no longer play (well duh) and Real is whining because they want their player to be bundled into Windows. Did you even read the article or do you just like to bash Microsoft at every opportunity?
Last edited by 3601 on 24 Mar 2005 - 15:38 -
#25.2 Posted by PseudoRandomDragon on 25 Mar 2005 - 04:09
- No not exactly. MS also deleted stuff that allows media players to function with word documents or some other web sites, thats what they complaining about.
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#25.3 Posted by threedaysdwn on 25 Mar 2005 - 04:21
QUOTE No not exactly. MS also deleted stuff that allows media players to function with word documents or some other web sites, thats what they complaining about.
No, Word will never use another media player to playback videos or audio. It always uses the WMP libraries that are included with Windows. That's simply how it was programmed. Just like the video playback scheduling program I wrote for the TV station at my old college made calls to an axWindowsMediaPlayer object - so do countless other apps. None of them are "magically" going to rewrite themselves to work with Real.
All they did was remove WMP and its associated libraries. They tried to tell the EU that this would break hundreds of programs that rely on those libraries, but they didn't believe them. Now they're seeing the fruits of their ignorance.-
#25.4 Posted by SquareSoft0 on 25 Mar 2005 - 07:54
- No, they aren't seeing the fruit of ignorance yet, that's the problem. They screwed up, they're continuing to screw up, and I don't see an end to their screwing up any time soon.
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#25.5 Posted by Ideas Man on 25 Mar 2005 - 10:20
- If they did know about this, then that proves that they were after the money, not all the other garbage, because they will base this crap as the reason to charge Microsoft 5% of their average daily earnings, which is tons.
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#25.6 Posted by Treefrog on 26 Mar 2005 - 05:38
QUOTE Word will never use another media player to playback videos or audio. It always uses the WMP libraries that are included with Windows. That's simply how it was programmed.
And here we have yet another example of MS abusing it's monopoly position in an illegal fashion in an attempt to gain a monopoly in another market. If that was "simply how it was programmed" then they must simply reprogram it to work in a more sane fashion. I don't give a crap about Real, but there must be an api that allows the os to say "play this" to whatever the *user* has deemed will be the default media player installed on the system.-
#25.7 Posted by mx3 on 26 Mar 2005 - 08:09
QUOTE And here we have yet another example of MS abusing it's monopoly position in an illegal fashion in an attempt to gain a monopoly in another market.
Ok, stop. Slow down. Set the anti-Microsoft torches aside and read what you just wrote.
You're saying that by having MS Word play media files using WMP APIs, that it's an attempt to gain a monopoly in another market (I'm assuming digital media). I'd like to ask you... How does Word's use of the APIs promote WMA, WMV, or any other Microsoft proprietary format? If Word's playing an mp3 file, the user doesn't even know what's going on under the hood; they see Word playing a file for them.
When Word makes a call to GetDC(), is that simply a monopolist tactic to strenghten MS's OS empire then? I mean hell, they're using a function from user32.dll, and that doesn't work in linux or os x!
QUOTE If that was "simply how it was programmed" then they must simply reprogram it to work in a more sane fashion. I don't give a crap about Real, but there must be an api that allows the os to say "play this" to whatever the *user* has deemed will be the default media player installed on the system.
I'm pretty sure that Winamp, for instance, doesn't even have an API for playing media in other applications. So what happens then? The WMP API is all about helping out the developers with a consistant way to play media files. If they don't want to use it, though, they can include their own libraries.-
#25.8 Posted by Treefrog on 27 Mar 2005 - 21:31
QUOTE You're saying that by having MS Word play media files using WMP APIs, that it's an attempt to gain a monopoly in another market (I'm assuming digital media).
I'm saying that by integrating WMP into the OS in such a fashion that any other media player cannot become the "default media player" if the user so chooses, by which I mean allow that player to be accessed by the Word API (insert program with media hooks of choice here), that MS has taken an *applet* and attempted to create another monopoly in the digital media market by levereraging the non-fact that "WMP is the only app that will do that." (I call it a non-fact because it's the only app that will do that *only* because they choose for it to, not for any technical reasons).
QUOTE I'm pretty sure that Winamp, for instance, doesn't even have an API for playing media in other applications. So what happens then? The WMP API is all about helping out the developers with a consistant way to play media files. If they don't want to use it, though, they can include their own libraries.
Well, I don't know about winamp, but maybe I'm not real sure about the point you're trying to get across. Is it that a maker of another media player could include whatever it is that is called by (sticking with the same examples) a .doc file (although I think it's ridiculous to begin with to have media files being accessed by what should be a text document), and then that player would work in the same fashion as WMP?
Which brings me to repeat what I just said, why in the world are people putting media files in .doc files? I guess I've just never even considered doing something like that with a word processor, and don't really feel that should be able to be done anyway. That seems an aweful lot like trying to get in on a different market with that application also. I guess my thing is that, a word processor makes formatted text documents, spreadsheet applications make spreadsheets, presentation managers make presentations, etc. Having all singing, all dancing apps just seems silly to me. Jack of all trades, master of none. I prefer smaller, more specialized apps, not behemoths full of bloat. If this is what is happening in the windows camp, well, it looks like the implosion is not far off (seriously, you can only support so much bloat, if it is as it's being told to me here, this is just way outta control). Note, these are simple observations and questions, no torches burning today .
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#26 Posted by C_Guy on 24 Mar 2005 - 17:12
- "Stewart contended that "the version of Windows Microsoft is proposing to sell has technical problems that render it less functional than the existing version of Windows."
NO!! REALLY???
You mean that you ordered Microsoft to strip off certain functionality from its operating system and now *shock**horror* it's...it's *less* functional? Oh my Lord, how did that happen! Oh my Gosh I can't believe it! They took out media functionality of Windows and now the operating system has less functionality? I can't believe that happened!
Goodness me! Microsoft just will not comply with EU's orders! Why can't they cripple their operating system without crippling it? Ok, ok... maybe 'cripple' is a strong word but come ON! If you ask them to remove functionality then do ya *think* that *maybe* it will be...*gasp*...less functional? WOW!
I really don't want any software product on my system that comes from a company that spews such unintelligent comments. I'm off to uninstall any trace of Real Player... Good luck staying in business Real, you're gonna need it.
...C_Guy
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#27 Posted by affy1977 on 24 Mar 2005 - 21:51
- gos the EU is thick, hhummm take media player out but we want no functionality to be lost wtf are they on, its like sayin ok u have to remove the windows from a car however when it p%£"es down we dont want to get wet!!! Real Play F*** off and die
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(1 reply)
#28 Posted by wulfshayde on 24 Mar 2005 - 22:33
- No offense to people in Europe because I know its not their fault that the EU blows goats for lunch money and eats a home packed lunch, however, If I were Bill... I'd say... "Sure, maybe the European market is huge, but the s**t we're going through just to try to do business there is going to cost us more this year than we have made in 5, and the jerk-offs in Real and that guy in the EU who made the ruling don't actually have a clue what software design is about, and as long as we continue to try and do business is EU it is going to cost us money. So that's it, pull out, we're done with the EU, we only sell in countries that don't provide us with un-reasonable demands. No one tells Shell that they have to offer bowsers for Esso and BP because their sales are better and they're not giving people the option to see the competition on their territory. Oh well, goodbye Europe. Let's just hike the prices everywhere else and blame it on the EU losses."
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(1 reply)
#29 Posted by toadeater on 25 Mar 2005 - 01:27
- Ok kids, the answer is:
Real AND Micro$oft *BOTH* suck.
Now, wasn't that easy?
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(1 reply)
#30 Posted by castor_troyuk on 25 Mar 2005 - 19:33
- I'm still confused over Real's dispute, even people with the choice wouldn't use realplayer, in fact most people would probably just use either winamp, itunes, foobar, or media player classic. Can anyone think of a genuine reason for real continuing to pursue this ?
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#30.1 Posted by Ideas Man on 26 Mar 2005 - 11:01
- Because they want Microsoft's money. If you can't beat them, steal their money. They've seen everybody else take a jab at the Microsoft piñata, so they figured it was their turn. Hit it and see how much they get, although they approached it a bit differently, they got some "hired goones" to bash it for them.
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#31 Posted by markyp23 on 25 Mar 2005 - 22:41
- Could Microsoft be treated any more unfairly?
Another example of Microsoft being "too good" to be allowed to make their products better.
A year ago, Mario Monti, then the European commissioner for competition, ordered Microsoft to sell a second version of Windows in Europe that has its music and video-playing program, Media Player, stripped out. The order was intended to restore competition. The second version, installed with a rival alternative to Media Player, is supposed to be introduced in the next few weeks.
But David R. Stewart, deputy general counsel for RealNetworks, said Tuesday that Microsoft was still not ready to comply with the European ruling. RealNetworks, of Seattle, which makes rival software, has the most to gain from enforcement of the order. The commission has yet to decide whether Microsoft's proposal for introducing the unbundled version of Windows meets its requirements. Stewart contended that "the version of Windows Microsoft is proposing to sell has technical problems that render it less functional than the existing version of Windows."
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