Microsoft Hack Day Improves Windows Live Software
Posted by Simon Andrews on 08 April 2006 - 15:31 · 55 comments & 29382 views
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Full name: Simon Andrews
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Full name: Simon Andrews
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#1 Posted by ~Aukon on 09 Apr 2006 - 10:25
- That's Good.
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(10 replies)
#2 Posted by The_Decryptor on 09 Apr 2006 - 10:41
- "Windows Live Messenger auto-reply message that kicks in when a person is away"
Had that feature for ages in other clients, and even add-on's (MsgPlus)
Glad the official client is finally getting it, it's a good feature (although in my case people don't seem to believe it.) -
#2.1 Posted by Spielo on 09 Apr 2006 - 11:19
- Indeed, how can that be classed as an "Idea"?
Maybe I'll pitch an application that lets you look at a 3D model of the earth to Microsoft as my idea?
How about a new feature for Paint that lets to enhance photos?
I really hope nobody won a prize for suggesting autoresponders for Messenger, and if that was one of the best "ideas", the Microsoft just wasted a day. -
#2.2 Posted by jwjw1 on 09 Apr 2006 - 11:41
- Windows Live Messenger auto-reply message...lol...how is that an employee idea...I saw that request posted in the beta newsgroup months ago.
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#2.3 Posted by markjensen on 09 Apr 2006 - 12:50
Windows Live Messenger auto-reply message...lol...how is that an employee idea...I saw that request posted in the beta newsgroup months ago.
The difference is that ordinarily, Microsoft uses a "cathedral" type of development system. The word comes down from the top on what features to program. This hack day thing was more of a "bazaar" type of development model used in Open Source - let the programmers work on code they want to work on and develop features that they would like to see as (presumably) users of their own software.
(references to development models come from esr's The Cathedral and the Bazaar)-
#2.4 Posted by Know Won on 09 Apr 2006 - 14:27
- @markjensen
Your post is total BS. There is no cathedral style development.
I used to work with M now I work for the big Y. -
#2.5 Posted by markjensen on 09 Apr 2006 - 14:33
Your post is total BS. There is no cathedral style development.
I used to work with M now I work for the big Y.
I don't care if you work for the Big Kahuna, himself.
Microsoft has a R&D and a Marketing department, like other large businesses such as this. These groups determine the features to be programmed. They are fine-tuned by testing and feedback. But, essentially, programmers are told what to program.
What part is "total BS", as you so eloquently put it?-
#2.7 Posted by Brandon Live on 09 Apr 2006 - 18:35
- Quote - markjensenThe difference is that ordinarily, Microsoft uses a "cathedral" type of development system. The word comes down from the top on what features to program.
Wow, I don't know if you could be more wrong.
Occassionally word will come from high up about a must-have or a must-cut feature. But those are pretty rare in my experience.
The messenger auto-reply thing was probably written by someone that isn't on the Messenger team. That's the idea of the "hack day." Unfortunately I missed it. I was too busy implementing my own extra feature into something else -
#2.8 Posted by markjensen on 09 Apr 2006 - 19:05
- ^^^ Then what do the Marketing and R&D teams do? Certainly the individual programmers don't have free reign to put in any features that they want.
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#2.9 Posted by Brandon Live on 09 Apr 2006 - 21:00
- Depends on the team. But features are usually determined by Project Managers when they write the specs. On our team, for instance, we had everyone submit their ideas for features and made a giant list of all of them. Then we had the entire team (PMs, devs, testers) vote on which features they wanted most. That's how we prioritized what makes it into the next release.
Marketing and research provides us valuable data about which features are important to our customers. We also take direct feedback from consumers and enterprises and that can definitely affect certain features or designs.
But we also have some features that come in because a developer gets a great idea and codes it up in his/her free time.
For example, take the integrated Desktop Search results that show up inside the Outlook window with the MSN Toolbar enterprise release (or Windows Live Toolbar beta). I happen to know that was done by one developer in his so-called "20% time" (ie. while still meeting all of his other commitments). There was never a spec or feature item for that. In fact, the PMs had been told over and over that doing something like that would be impossible since Outlook didn't expose functionality that would be necessary. But through some super-clever programming and a bunch of late nights he made it work and had guys from Outlook going "How the hell did you do that!?"
And on the WDS side, some might notice that in our 2.6.5 release the WDS Deskbar has a much cleaner and more effective loading mechanism. I did that in my free time because I got frustrated with how ugly the old method was.
This last week and a half I spent several late nights at the office working on a particularly kick-ass "pet feature" of mine for a different project I'm now working on. And if things go well it might ship in an upcoming beta release. -
#2.10 Posted by markjensen on 09 Apr 2006 - 22:11
- That "20% time" sounds like exactly what I was saying about a "bazaar" style of development, and I believe it to be an important part of programmers doing what they like, rather than what they are told.
It is good to see Microsoft supporting this, whether as a "hack day" or as a continuing "20%" thing. People (not just programmers, but every occupation) work best when it is something they feel ownership of, and that they enjoy.
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(2 replies)
#3 Posted by noroom on 09 Apr 2006 - 10:47
- I can't believe they needed employees to suggest it.
Look at any third party client. It has that feature. -
#3.1 Posted by Glassed Silver on 09 Apr 2006 - 11:16
- Quote - noroom said @ #2.1I can't believe they needed employees to suggest it.
Look at any third party client. It has that feature.
icq? nope ^^
well, i dont think they needed employees for suggesting that, it has been suggested by many beta testers also.
point is, that maybe now they got to know thats its really demanded, also by employees and not just a beta tester "here and there"
-fm -
#3.2 Posted by Brandon Live on 09 Apr 2006 - 18:37
- The point isn't that someone came up with the idea.
The point is that during the event they actually implemented it. At least that's my understanding of the event (like I said, I missed it).
Last edited by Brandon Live on 09 Apr 2006 - 21:03
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(2 replies)
#4 Posted by rIaHc3 on 09 Apr 2006 - 10:52
- My question is that will these ideas EVER accually be made/implanted?
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#4.1 Posted by Jugalator on 09 Apr 2006 - 11:51
- Probably like with Google Labs: if they're in line with corprorate plans and of good enough quality.
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#4.2 Posted by Brandon Live on 09 Apr 2006 - 18:38
- I guess it wasn't clear. The event wasn't about coming up with ideas. It was about implementing them and learning how to create mash-ups of different Live products or write add-ins for many of them.
Now... will they be productized? Who knows. But I still think it was a great idea.
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#5 Posted by Glassed Silver on 09 Apr 2006 - 11:20
- i guess that depends on the ideas...
if i was working there, and would make a recommendation i might want to code a prototype, so u might have better chances to win etc and maybe that it gets a ms release.
some ideas will probably be that good that ms would have to be like uberdumb to now pick it up.
i think ms will handle those ideas well
and IMO its a very great idea, it leaves the guys working their ass of for ms some good platform what kinda brains they got ^^
-fm
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#6 Posted by Jugalator on 09 Apr 2006 - 11:49
- Bah, they need more prize imagination.
Any respectable hacker should already have a boxed set of LOTR, and any respectable Microsoft employee should already have an Xbox 360.
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(5 replies)
#7 Posted by tibi08 on 09 Apr 2006 - 12:17
- When I saw "hack day" I thought it was to ensure the software was secure. I forgot that they don't care about that.
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#7.1 Posted by lodgepole on 09 Apr 2006 - 15:39
- I though the same. "Hack" day is a horrible name to give this internal event.
However, to say they don't care about security seems more than a bit presumptious. -
#7.2 Posted by Brandon Live on 09 Apr 2006 - 18:42
- Quote -When I saw "hack day" I thought it was to ensure the software was secure. I forgot that they don't care about that.
Dude, when 90% of the "process" around a release is making sure that our software is secure - hearing that we don't care about that is like a slap in the face. -
#7.3 Posted by M2Ys4U on 09 Apr 2006 - 21:56
- The term 'Hack' here is used in the correct context, not the media context.
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#7.4 Posted by g_denne on 10 Apr 2006 - 01:08
- Quote -
"Dude, when 90% of the "process" around a release is making sure that our software is secure "
90% is a disproportionate amount of development if it only leaves 10% left for the rest of the process of any software product. -
#7.5 Posted by Brandon Live on 10 Apr 2006 - 02:23
- Not 90% of development time. But even if it is an exaggeration, it at least feels like 90% of the release process is the long effort to comply with the security requirements at Microsoft. Recently a lot of groups were hit with the requirement to compile using the Whidbey compiler, and it has certainly cost some teams significant time. Also there are countless tools and scans and policies that we must abide by, many of which you can read about on the MS security blogs.
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(1 reply)
#8 Posted by bucko on 09 Apr 2006 - 12:20
- Uh I'm not quite with the Hack Day thing, surely they should of called it Ideas Live Day or something. They trying to promote there Live software is secure or something?
Good idea but just a misleading title lol. -
#8.1 Posted by M2Ys4U on 09 Apr 2006 - 21:59
- The word 'Hack' is used in its correct context http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hack.html
Unlike what you're thinking of, which is crack: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/C/crack.html
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(1 reply)
#9 Posted by LeeŽ on 09 Apr 2006 - 12:35
- shouldnt have been called hack day.
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#9.1 Posted by vlsi0n on 10 Apr 2006 - 20:55
- The word 'Hack' is used in its correct context http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hack.html
Unlike what you're thinking of, which is crack: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/C/crack.html
read ^ geez!
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#10 Posted by phantom76 on 09 Apr 2006 - 13:12
- Microsoft having a hack day, well at least someone has a sense of humor
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#11 Posted by Smigit on 09 Apr 2006 - 13:21
- The auto response one sound a bit unexciting but perhaps they are inclined to keep any of the killer ideas (if any) to themselves.
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(4 replies)
#12 Posted by Spielo on 09 Apr 2006 - 13:24
- People seem to be focussing on one particular meaning of the word "hack"... Other uses in include "to hack something together", or, as a noun, a worthless and over-the-hill person
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#12.1 Posted by simon360 on 09 Apr 2006 - 16:11
- Exactly. They hacked at a program, or they hacked the programs together in one afternoon.
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#12.3 Posted by Jugalator on 09 Apr 2006 - 16:36
- However, as for "hack" and "hack jobs", when it doesn't mean "hacking a server", it usually mean "making a quick & dirty programming job". A "hack" isn't a polished work and many use the word to degrade their own work a bit and lower expectations. "It's just a quick hack". So I have to agree it may not be the best word possible, at least from a marketing perspective. It's not exactly bearing an as positive meaning as "Microsoft Innovation Day", for example.
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#12.4 Posted by Brandon Live on 09 Apr 2006 - 18:44
- I think "hack day" was a fine naming givne the intention. The idea was to hack together functional prototypes, not finished products. I believe the goal being to learn how to create mash-ups, gadgets, or add-ins.
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(3 replies)
#13 Posted by CaKeY on 09 Apr 2006 - 13:29
- I thought with microsoft every day is hack-day.
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#14 Posted by ithrowrocksatfatkids on 09 Apr 2006 - 14:08
- good on microsoft
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#15 Posted by Menge on 09 Apr 2006 - 16:12
- those "innovations" are hardly worth their prizes
i mean "auto away message"?! come ON!
plus... "hack day" is a HORRIBLE name for this event
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#16 Posted by tylerm on 09 Apr 2006 - 19:51
- you should remember the source is the seattle times whose audience may not be tech savvy like all of us neowin readers. so trying to explain some of the other things that were developed during hack day could prove difficult. at least those 2 things are easy to understand.
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(4 replies)
#17 Posted by reidtheweed01 on 09 Apr 2006 - 23:17
- Why do you all focus so much on what they call it. You people just seem to find a way to complain about everything.
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#17.1 Posted by zentradi on 09 Apr 2006 - 23:51
- Well, there are people like you that defend everything Microsoft does no matter what, so the balance in the universe is maintained. All is well.
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#17.2 Posted by reidtheweed01 on 10 Apr 2006 - 00:17
- How did I defend Microsoft at all? I never even stated my position on anything. All i said is that you people are stuck on the title, and complaining about it, instead of talking about the subject.
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#17.3 Posted by mrbester on 10 Apr 2006 - 09:55
- Whilst the title is correct, the media have decided to ignore the true meaning and equate crack with hack. Therefore when it is reported in a non-tech savvy publication, the public, having been trained as to the "meaning" of hack will (as others here have) consider it to be a corporate sponsored "break my code and turn my machine into a botnet" day. The problem is that the media was not corrected forcefully enough as to the difference between the two words.
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(1 reply)
#18 Posted by osirisX on 10 Apr 2006 - 01:02
- "Microsoft Hack Day" sounds like a day where everyone hacks Microsofts products....
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#19 Posted by Cy Bones on 10 Apr 2006 - 10:16
- Sounds like a good day - I will proably suggest something similar at my next team meeting (including the name)...
Does anyone have any examples of other interesting developments from this day?
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(2 replies)
#20 Posted by LTD on 10 Apr 2006 - 12:54
- THOSE were some of the "best ideas" ???????
Let's see:
*drum roll*
An auto-reply feature in a chat client, and . . . (wait, it gets better)
A garage sale-listing program that makes it easier for you to find your way to the sale.
THIS is what the bright minds at MS Hack Day came up with?
Something tells me that switching to a mac was one of the smartest things I've ever done. Sure, hats off to Microsoft for developing Vista and making an effort to improve secuirty. Fine. But seriously, this is truly anticlimactic. I was expecting something a little better. -
#20.1 Posted by Brandon Live on 10 Apr 2006 - 17:18
- Dude,
This was a few people getting together to learn something. The idea was that developers who had no idea how the gadgets platform or various Windows Live add-in technologies worked could go and learn via some hands-on experience.
If you had only a few hours to hack together something using technologies that are completely new to you - what would you have come up with? -
#20.2 Posted by vlsi0n on 10 Apr 2006 - 21:01
- hmm, still braging about 'the switch' i swear, from the comments i've seen it's like your a walking apple commercial. loven the apples? Anyway I thought they were good ideas, maybe the auto rely things isnt new but so, they had a few hours to learn how to code and what thats like. Looks like someone missed the point...
Hack Day is Microsoft's way of getting inspiration, creativity, and ideas out of its employees. "We knew lots of people had cool ideas because they talk about them all the time in the hallways," Jennifer Johnston, a Senior Microsoft product manager commented. She continues to say that the employees at Microsoft needed a chance to get those ideas out.
A grabber for many Microsoft employees (besides the chance to spend a day letting their ideas run loose) were the prizes. A boxed set of Lord of the Rings and an Xbox 360 were just some of the prizes awarded for the best ideas. Some of the programs that came out of Hack Day included a Windows Live Messenger auto-reply message that kicks in when a person is away, and a garage sale listing program that plotted a route using an online map.