OpenGL Now Natively Supported in Windows Vista
Posted by Dice on 15 August 2006 - 16:51 · 39 comments & 44774 views
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#1 Posted by yudi_lks on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:03
- Good
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(1 reply)
#2 Posted by paulhaskew on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:10
- nice to know this... there are some spacing issues in this article though...
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#3 Posted by hotdog963al on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:12
- Excellent.
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#4 Posted by leebobs on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:19
- Superb news
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#5 Posted by Rockett15 on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:21
- That's good to know. Hopefully we will continue to see more games written for OpenGL. With Apple's Intel transition, this will make for some easily ported games
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(1 reply)
#6 Posted by Elite_graphix on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:27
- such a shame with 5472 vista build- i tried playing several opengl games and none of them worked.
i do hope they fully support opengl in the final. -
#6.1 Posted by Jugalator on 15 Aug 2006 - 22:46
- How well your OpenGL works is however up to either nVidia or AMD, not Microsoft. It's a driver support thing, where the support is adapted for your graphics card via the driver, where the main OpenGL implementation is provided by Khronos. So MS themselves has quite little to do with it all.
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(5 replies)
#7 Posted by xxdesmus on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:33
- Good news, but really is quite old news...at least a week old now.
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#7.1 Posted by Grandaevus on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:36
- Well I missed it so I say thanks Enan for posting it. Now take your trolls and go somewhere else....
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#7.2 Posted by chisss on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:56
- then if they were old news why didnt you report them a week ago??? sheesh....
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#7.3 Posted by xxdesmus on 15 Aug 2006 - 18:15
- Quote - chisss said @ #7.2then if they were old news why didnt you report them a week ago??? sheesh....
lol...because I didn't think it was that interesting. People are so funny, they get so defensive when you point out something negative about there site. Ya see that little orange icon next to my name? I like Neowin plenty, chill. -
#7.4 Posted by tylershaw on 15 Aug 2006 - 19:34
- Quote - xxdesmus said @ #7.3Quote - chisss said @ #7.2then if they were old news why didnt you report them a week ago??? sheesh....
lol...because I didn't think it was that interesting. People are so funny, they get so defensive when you point out something negative about there site. Ya see that little orange icon next to my name? I like Neowin plenty, chill.
What IS that litle orange icon anyway? -
#7.5 Posted by virtorio on 15 Aug 2006 - 21:01
- Quote - tylershaw said @ #7.4Quote - xxdesmus said @ #7.3Quote - chisss said @ #7.2then if they were old news why didnt you report them a week ago??? sheesh....
lol...because I didn't think it was that interesting. People are so funny, they get so defensive when you point out something negative about there site. Ya see that little orange icon next to my name? I like Neowin plenty, chill.
What IS that litle orange icon anyway?
I think it appears for Subscribers.
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(4 replies)
#8 Posted by RangerLG on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:43
- If it is natively supported, why is a driver download needed? I would think that native support means support out of the box.
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#8.1 Posted by coldgunner on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:56
- tried quake 4 under beta 2, forgot the build, the public preview DVD I was sent anyway. performance was crappy and my 6800GT can handle any d3 engine games like knives handle butter!
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#8.2 Posted by Sterling Christensen on 15 Aug 2006 - 18:35
- Quote - coldgunner said @ #8.1tried quake 4 under beta 2 [...] performance was crappy [...] 6800GT
Was that with nVidia's drivers installed? -
#8.3 Posted by Ravensworth on 15 Aug 2006 - 20:27
- That's true, they need to reword that. It will be FULLY supported, but not native.
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#9 Posted by Cryton on 15 Aug 2006 - 17:54
- Good good good good good.
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(3 replies)
#10 Posted by Ironman273 on 15 Aug 2006 - 18:38
- If it's a driver download why wouldn't it work with XP?
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#10.1 Posted by John Ericson on 15 Aug 2006 - 18:54
- Because Vista uses a new driver model for graphics. Did you know you can upgrade your graphichs driver in Vista without rebooting the computer? That's because of the new driver model.
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#10.2 Posted by Ironman273 on 15 Aug 2006 - 19:30
- Ahh, that makes sense. That's pretty cool! All the talk you hear about Vista is the visual aspects. This is the type of stuff that will make it a worthwhile upgrade from XP.
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#10.3 Posted by Jugalator on 15 Aug 2006 - 22:49
- ^ This link occasionally get posted here, but it's useful to find out the non-visual stuff in it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_Vista
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#11 Posted by John Ericson on 15 Aug 2006 - 18:58
- So does this mean that we can run Direct3D and OpenGL programs side by side, without emulating one of the API's? That would be the ideal, but I'm note sure about this after reading that article.
Isn't it impossible for two different API's to access the 3D hardware at the same time? Then some kind of emulation must happen right?
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(1 reply)
#12 Posted by Sphinx Myth on 15 Aug 2006 - 20:13
- Microsoft engineers are too lazy to find the solution by themselves. They created ICD but they forgot to use it...
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#13 Posted by Ravensworth on 15 Aug 2006 - 20:26
- Quote -In fact, Khronos says that by the time Windows Vista ships, Aeroglass performance on OpenGL will be superior to that of Direct3D.
If that turns out to be true, it will be hilarious.
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(4 replies)
#14 Posted by Brandon Live on 15 Aug 2006 - 23:04
- This is non-sense.
It was never going to be "non-native" and it was never going to be a problem. Nothing is going to be "faster" in OpenGL because of Aero Glass, or vice versa.
Microsoft never said anything about OpenGL being slower in Vista, that was some BS spouted by a supposed "insider" like a year ago who misunderstood a project that was meant to offer a method for running OpenGL apps through Direct3D (as an alternative to running in software mode or having an ICD, which is how Windows 2000/XP work). No one ever said that ICD support was going away.
The only news here is that some non-news a year ago (that many of us said was rubbish) was in fact misinformation. That's it. -
#14.1 Posted by mrmckeb on 15 Aug 2006 - 23:36
- I choose to side with you on this issue Brandon. To put it simply, I have not heard that OpenGL will be thrown out from Microsoft - to my knowledge it's DX9 and earlier that will be emulated in Vista, not OpenGL.
And if Microsoft specifically designed Aero around DX9, how could a third party make it work on OpenGL? Explanations please! I would love to hear from an expert (at Microsoft) on this issue... as it all sounds very much like a load of BS.
Anyway, who care about OpenGL? DirectX is what EVERY company (excluding ID Software, and their respective engines) chooses to use for games now. -
#14.2 Posted by Ravensworth on 16 Aug 2006 - 01:17
- Quote -Anyway, who care about OpenGL?
A huge number of Windows users and probably every non-Windows user in the world. How about professional 3D graphics designers? Ever heard of CAD? OpenGL is basically the industry standard for graphics. You were kidding though, right? The real world doesn't revolve around Windows gamers.
Last edited by Ravensworth on 16 Aug 2006 - 01:36 -
#14.3 Posted by The_Decryptor on 16 Aug 2006 - 03:07
- it was.
1. Limit it to OpenGL 1.4 and translate the calls to DirectX (this is what would be slow)
2. disable Aero Glass to run any OpenGL
Then apparently Microsoft fixed it (it was in a couple of news items), so that OpenGL just rendered to a texture (like what these people are doing)
So, either Microsoft reverted their fix, or Vista will have two means of getting native speed OpenGL drawing. -
#14.4 Posted by dangel on 16 Aug 2006 - 09:39
- Quote - Ravensworth said @ #14.2Quote -Anyway, who care about OpenGL?
A huge number of Windows users and probably every non-Windows user in the world. How about professional 3D graphics designers? Ever heard of CAD? OpenGL is basically the industry standard for graphics. You were kidding though, right? The real world doesn't revolve around Windows gamers.
Which would all well and good if the games market wasn't worth so much moola versus niche desktop apps..
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(3 replies)
#15 Posted by Xenomorph on 15 Aug 2006 - 23:28
- i'm totally lost here.
according to the article, OpenGL is going to work EXACTLY HOW IT HAS WORKED in Windows 2000 and XP.
OpenGL has always been done through Direct3D if no OpenGL ICD (or MiniGL) was present.
How is it ANY different in Windows Vista? -
#15.1 Posted by Ravensworth on 16 Aug 2006 - 01:16
- Quote -With Windows Vista, Microsoft made it clear that OpenGL support would only work as a layer sitting on top of Direct3D. There was going to be translation involved and thus, a performance hit.
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#15.2 Posted by Brandon Live on 16 Aug 2006 - 05:24
- Quote - Ravensworth said @ #15.1Quote -With Windows Vista, Microsoft made it clear that OpenGL support would only work as a layer sitting on top of Direct3D. There was going to be translation involved and thus, a performance hit.
Show me one place where Microsoft ever said that (and not just some guy on an OpenGL forum). -
#15.3 Posted by Ravensworth on 16 Aug 2006 - 08:09
- First I was quoting the article above, but it is true. It was not reported by some fanboy or guy in a forum, but by the OpenGL Foundation and major video card manufacturers including ATI and NVIDIA. I hope those are professional enough for you. From an interview with 3DLabs:Quote -Question - Where did this infomation come from?
Answer - This information came from the OpenGL BOF held at Siggraph 2005 in LA this last Wednesday evening. This was confirmed at the BOF by NVIDIA, ATI and us (3Dlabs).
As soon as an ICD is loaded the composited desktop is turned off on Windows Vista. If you want the composited desktop Aeroglass experience, you will need to make your application go through Microsoft's OpenGL implementation, which is layered on top of DirectX. As pointed out earlier, this layering can have performance implications. Their implementation supports OpenGL version 1.4 only, without extension support.
We believe it possible to provide an ICD with full composited desktop support while adhering to the stability and security requirements in Windows Vista. But we need Microsoft's help in doing so.
For some more information, you can browse these Microsoft Winhec slides:
Windows Graphics Overview WinHEC 2005
Advances in Display and Composition Architecture for Windows
Regards,
Barthold
3Dlabs
You'll need Powerpoint Viewer for those slides but they are straight from Microsoft as you requested.
Again, they have obviously worked together with Microsoft to come up with a solution to this issue.
Last edited by Ravensworth on 16 Aug 2006 - 08:50
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#16 Posted by dangel on 16 Aug 2006 - 09:42
- Some interesting claims - 'faster' raises an eyebrow here - DX10 has _much_ lower overhead than DX9.. We live in a world where the hardware and the API walk hand in hand and DX10 parts are built for just that..
If carmack jumps off the OpenGL wagon then what's left (of significance)? A few niche desktop apps? Even then, will OpenGL provide freedom from context switching penalties like DX10?
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#17 Posted by ThePitt on 16 Aug 2006 - 15:28
- interesting move. I wonder if this become more popular after all m$ saw the xgl video
The reason why OpenGL was not ever officially supported by Microsoft was because of Direct3D. Direct3D is Microsoft’s driver model whichis intended to make OpenGL unnecessary. However many games and applications use OpenGL even today. With Windows Vista, Microsoft made it clear that OpenGL support would only work as a layer sitting on top of Direct3D. There was going to be translation involved and thus, a performance hit.
Vista without layering over Direct3D. Using standard Windows installable client driver (ICD), OpenGL will be fully accelerated and be fully compatible with Windows Vista's Aeroglass UI. In fact, Khronos says that by the time Windows Vista ships, Aeroglass performance on OpenGL will be superior to that of Direct3D. According to Khronos and NVIDIA:
This week the Khronos group, which is responsible for developing and maintaining OpenGL, has released a report indicating that OpenGL support will now be natively supported in
- Hardware overlays are not supported
- Hardware OpenGL overlays are an obsolete feature on
Vista - ATI and NVIDIA strongly recommend using compositing desktop/FBOs for same functionality
However, the OpenGL ICD drivers must still bedownloaded and will not ship on the Windows Vista installation disc. Khronos said that NVIDIA already has a beta 2 ICD OpenGL driver available and ATI will release its own soon. If no ICD is present, Windows Vista will rely on thelayered OpenGL mode by default and only offer basic functionality.