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Apple just keeps throwing out reasons why we should hate them.

I'm wondering if you won't be able to get drivers unless you pay for Bootcamp. But who knows...

It's not as simple as manually partitioning, Boot Camp is a lot more than a partition manager. The Intel Macs use EFI instead of a BIOS. Windows cannot work without a BIOS. Boot Camp emulates BIOS for operating systems that do not support booting from EFI. It also provides drivers for all of the hardware on the system. You can't boot Windows on an Intel Mac without Boot Camp.

I have EFI on my office system, Windows 2003 64-bit, Windows 2003 32-bit, XP, Vista all work fine.
Intel's EFI includes a 'compatibility support module' to ensure all that even DOS works properly with EFI.
Looks like Macs was purposely shipped with limited EFI module so they can sell an "upgrade" to people.

Boot Camp does not, it's the BIOS compatibility layer in the EFI that does this. Which you can use without Boot Camp. I know this because I'm sitting here in XP on my iMac without OS X on the hard drive anywhere :p

Granted, drivers may be an issue but as the hardware is standard equipment, most it could be done without Apple's help (Video / Sound / Network etc).

Apple does not ship any of it's computers with the compatibility layer installed. You can't buy a Mac, put in an XP cd and install. You either need Boot Camp which provides it or you can go and find the pieces by hand and install them (and probably void your warranty in the process.) Oh and Boot Camp is also a pretty boot loader.

I seem to remember when Boot Camp was first released, I downloaded it and installed from within Tiger, and upon running it, was informed that I needed a firmware update, which I had to download and install myself. Boot Camp had nothing to do with that apart from giving me a link, I did not have to find anything by hand.

The process for me was:

1) Install EFI update to allow BIOS compatibility
2) Use Boot Camp to create a driver cd
3) Boot from Windows XP cd, clear the hard drive and create one big NTFS partition
4) Install Windows
5) Install drivers
6) Use my iMac as if it was any other PC with Windows XP

If Macs are currently being shipped with an EFI without BIOS compatibilty then fine, but that wouldn't make any sense at all :s

lol what. No. Your motherboard has EFI but it's disabled in favor of a BIOS compatibility layer. Otherwise half of the OS' you listed wouldn't boot on it. Macs shipped with an EFI module without a BIOS compaibility layer, and later added it in a firmware upgrade. You can install Windows without bootcamp as long as you have the upgrade and don't mind nuking your OS X partition. BootCamp is a drive CD and a partition manager, nothing more.

That said, it's completely fair for Apple to charge for BootCamp. It's not necessary, it's just really helpful.

Agreed

Wow. They are milking people and minting money.
Don't recollect ever having to pay for drivers.

Then they're charging for drivers? Wow....That's a low I don't think any hardware company has ever hit....

HP charged users for a scanner driver that would work in Windows 98...But i agree, this seems like an underhand way to force users to upgrade.

Exactly, they want people to think "I might as well buy Leopard" - Well it has worked for me!

the old ****...

look at the forums, there is a couple of topics that have arguments against your "non-upgradable"-statement and others, so stop this crap in here, please. thanks.

I think azz0r_wugg is right. 50% profit for the iPhone and now this? Apple is and has always been greedy for profit, and if Microsoft tried to pull stuff like this there would be 40+ comments on this post about how "evil" they are...

typical mac user behavior.

Oh you must be kidding. Because Apple computers like everyone else is devoted in making top grade technology and than selling it at a price where they can't break even? Give me a break, a business is in business to make money. You wanna know how much it cost Apple to make an iPod? Wanna ask Nike how much it cost them to make a pair of shoes in a thrid world country before selling it to you for $150? Wanna ask how much it cost Tommy Hilfiger or American Eagle to make that $100+ pair of jeans? Give me a break. What if its a business strategy? Why should Apple spend their time and resource to develop something and give it away for free?

You people complaining about the price tag must be delusional. As if the company owe you something and must give you free software to keep you on board. If you don't want it, don't buy it and move on. I'm sure Apple (or any other company) don't need business from people that bitches about everything that cost money.

i so second that. ^

And you continue to defend apple. I highly doubt you'd make the same arguments for Microsoft if they were doing the same thing.

In fact I would. Just get over it, there is no "evil" computer corporation thats out there to get the world. Everyone needs to bring bacon on the table and if they have technology to share, and there is a demand for it, a transaction of money is as basic as it gets. Business 101. Microsoft charges $400 for Windows Vista, do you see me bitching about that? Microsoft will charge you another $300 for Office 2007, do you see me bitching about that? As a graphic designer I spend over $3000 for Adobe Creative Suite and another $1000 on Macromedia software, do you see me bitching about that? Apple will charge 29 for a piece of software that will open up ENDLESS possibilities on your Mac by allowing you to run Windows software and you bitch about it why? Because you were able to use a unstable, uncompleted version for free?

I'm not defending Apple here, I have been a MS beta tester for a LONG time but I also enjoy working on my Mac, the 29 dollar fee is simply what Apple is asking in return for the service they are providing to you. I don't see a problem? If you want to talk about evil corporations, talk about how Enron cheated billions out of their own employees retirement funds or talk about what some companies are willing to do to gain profit. Don't bitch at a company who is simply trying to sell a piece of software.

You don't understand my argument or the argument of the original poster. I'm not "bitching" as you say about the price of any product. Obviously a business has to make profit-inducing decisions if they want to continue to thrive as a business. I'm addressing the fact that there is a general bias against Microsoft, and a bias for Apple (especially from its users) that makes them seem like a much better company that's always doing the right thing.

Sure I do, I got it right here...

"I think azz0r_wugg is right. 50% profit for the iPhone and now this? Apple is and has always been greedy for profit,"

No problem here if no one is a fanboy... If I understood the above post properly, which I imagine I have, it is your negative bias against Apple that have made my argument true...

Sure, it's fine if you want to quote the part of my post that helps you and ignore the rest. Whatever helps your argument. Apple is often defended for practices that would be denounced had they come from other companies. That's all I'm saying.

I just simply don't understand why Apple is getting slapped on the wrist for this by some of the posters in here, I mean Microsoft had OneCare, had a beta for a long time, than the software went gold, charged money, no one really say "denounced" the company? I mean MS started charing for Windows 98 Second edition and no one had any comment? I mean MS was sued by the EU for monopoly, MS gave the EU a lot of money and made the whole thing go away and no one really took out their pitchforks and stakes, when a study showed that the corporate ladder of MS favored white male instead of any other race, no one even really talked about it...I mean whats the deal here? Alot of companies that does alot of things that deserved to be talked about and slapped on the wrist for it, but yet no one does...Apple chrages for boot camp and they are the evil of the world?

The EU suit was a shadow-story of the American antitrust case, they just came to the decision that Microsoft was monopolizing the software market a little later than the US did. And with every other thing you mentioned there, I remember there being quite a bit of anti-MS outcry in comments and blogs and in general. And I'm not saying Apple is evil. They are a company just like any other company, doing what they have to do to thrive and succeed. But when stock options internal investigations happen the most important part of the news is that Steve Jobs was acquitted of all charges, and you see articles already calling LG's prada an "iPhone look-alike" even though it was created first, and then when Microsoft decided to enter the market with Zune you heard a hundred voices calling it a flop, and simultaneously "iPod is king," it just gets tiring after a while. And you're right, this article is probably a bad example of any of this since it's only based off speculation anyway. I just feel in general the balance too often weighs on apple's side. And yes, I was a little quick to back up azz0r_wugg even though I'm sure there actually are some ways to upgrade apple software.

i think that the problem here is that blanka and others who publicly "did it first" would've made it available for free (had they kept working on making it commercial-level stable). kinda makes apple look sneaky by saying it in all their adds that macs can run windows, where the add should read: "macs can run windows... if you have leopard or buy bootcamp".

this will be marketed as a standard feature once it hits v1.final, and it wouldn't be false except that it will only be applicable for new machines and people who buy the upgrade.

Windows 95 - 98 (3 years)
Windows 98 - 2000 (2 and a half years)
Windows 2000 - XP ( 3 years)
Windows XP - Vista (3 and a half years)

You might want to recount those years to vista

ERUUUMM...

4...I'm sorry

You're still one off. Windows XP was released Oct 21, 2001. Vista was RTM around Nov 2006 with a general release Jan 30, 2007. That's a bit over 5 years.

You forgot Windows ME

No. There wasn't an ME. It didn't exist! It never existed I tell you! *fetal position*

Wasn't ME like $50 as an upgrade, though? It say between 98 and XP, same level as 2000, so we'll just ignore it for this....

He might want to rethink all the dates, or buy a calculator... XP was 2002.

And Windows 2000 was not an upgrade from Win98. It was an upgrade from Windows NT 4.0

damn, dude! i feel that, but...
therapy!

Whoa, a company that charges for their products? Far out, man!

Not it hasn't.

What does apple make for free? iTunes, Widgets and those lil iCards which are pretty neat.

I think they are pretty fair with what they charge for, I mean I don't need any of it. lol.

Oh well if they can charge $30 for opening your movies full screen and get away with it....why not this ? :p
(yea yea I know Qt Pro is more than just full screen view, but I would need it mainly to view full screen so I should be paying $30 ? screw'em. I found vlc.)

I love how apple do that, it's utter cheek, but all their other apps have full screen free, they'll have to pull Quicktime into line one day.

Sorry, I dont believe in paying for free drivers.

Not cool.

^ i second that.

you would not be saying that if nVidia or ATI or Creative *shudder* decided to charge people for drivers and forceware and technologies such as this.
i know it's a bad comparison but it's in the same vein...

drivers should be free. don't make me pay for the hardware and then software to make it work.

Haha, I have to admit that Mac users seem to be way more forgiving of Apple when it comes to this sort of thing. Heck, people were up in arms about Microsoft making DirectX10 Vista-only.

This is how owning a Mac has always been though. If you want the latest software, you update to the latest OS. If you want to guarantee all the programs released for the Mac will work on your computer, you've got to update to the latest OS. It's not like Apple just started doing this.

leopard users wouldn't have to pay for it since apple says it'll be part of the os.

It's not recent. Apple has always crapped on its users... They just either don't notice or are into scat, I guess.

it's that whole obsolescence thing... first they crapped on your hardware, now they're doing it to your software.

if people are soooo bothered by it, they could always run linux!

How exactly did Apple "crap" on your hardware and now software?

Well then how do you install Windows on a Mac without using Boot Camp?

Google?

Google doesnt show anything.

I dont think its possible to install Windows on a Mac without using Boot Camp.

you can run os9.1 on a 6230CD but you can't run os9.2. i had two of those with s-video out and everything and apple was pretty much "screw that, buy this machine for a $1000 more". and this was back when macs were hella more expensive than regular pcs.

then they make you buy brand new hardware to run osx. i'm not saying that you can run osx on a 6230CD but the fanboys will have you think you can run osx on the oldest mac without any kind of delays/hanging/etc.

only the first version of osx would run on the old beige boxes, but after that you have to dig into your wallet again to run the "service packs" apple makes you pay for.

that was my reason for switching, affordable hardware with a better upgrade path and free "service packs".

queue the kerosene... i'm ready to get flamed.