Neowin.net

yeah, everytime i would close a window it would crash

I think you're right. kinda cool actually.

you know I never looked at it from that point of view either..

I would see your point had this been a virus or something, but it's not. These are not human exploits, these are bugs. Even if there were 10 people who used this program the bugs would have been found.

or more like there are that many bugs that you can't miss them

Erm.....no.

Is that Apple's official 'response' excuse?

Installing system components should be an atomic operation. Either it succeeds completely or fails. Hence one reason that these types of upgrades require restarts on Windows--the actual "switch" only happens when the restart is done. Transactional file systems (like NTFS on Vista) help with this kind of thing too.



On Windows, if programs that use MSHTML don't work after installing IE7, people will blame IE7. They don't know to blame MSHTML.

Likewise, on the Mac, people don't know that there even is something called WebKit. They know that they installed Safari and now things break.

It is up to Apple to make sure that Safari's updated WebKit is backward compatible with previous versions.

I was able to log in, but it said I was using Safari 1.0 and that I should upgrade.

LOL, pretty much spot on. xD

HAHAHAHA poor Linux when things break(as they do often) there is no easy way to fix it.

Iridium: ???

Why is there never an easy way to fix problems in Linux for you? That's not been my experience anyway... Or sure, they're not always super easy to fix things on, but neither is Windows. :-p It sounds more like a user experience problem here.

Thankyou, i was starting to think i was the only one around here tha understands the concept of beta

I do agree. However, on the Apple download page it does say something to the effect of "worlds best browser, secure from day one.. etc" Should not make claims one can't back up.

Possibly because the entire purpose of beta software is testing, so if these people didn't "bitch" about it, the problems wouldn't be fixed, as obviously the developers themselves missed it.

Raid - first of all i totally agree, apple did bad (real bad) by not really pointing out the deficiencies in beta software an the risks associated

EIS - i disagree, there is a process to log bugs in most beta apps, whether it be an email address you report it to or even a button you can press, i am not sure if apple mentions its beta reporting process,i am shore they do somewhere, bitching on news sites is not it. If you have found a bug then report it to the appropriate people don't bitch about it not workign on a news site that you have no idea anyone from mac even reads. bitching about bugs on news sites is only useful if someone that is going to tell someone to fix the bug reads that site, i.e. product management, even if a develpoer that is responsible for part of an app reads about a bug in his part of the app, he is not apllowed to fix it unless he is told by management.

So my point is poeple bitching on news sites does nothing to get bugs fixed, even this "security bug" was reported to apple, in the appropriate way, the person that found it didn't just jump on the first news site he founf and tell everyone.

hahah.

While you did take it a bit far, I think Time Machine is in 10.5? Oh well, too late now. It could've helped probably, but who knows.

beta is an excuse for both MS and MAC, it's the whole point of beta really, to find problems, whats bad is when software is released to the public with major isues, the ones wihtout the excuse are the idiots that install beta on their computers they use regularly and rely on instead of test machines or a virtual OS of some sort, then bitch about stuff not working.

It's horrible when an early alpha is released as a public beta, it's worse still when it's seemingly as untested as this "beta" has been. If it's a beta, why are we at 3.01 when we don't have a released 3.0?

It's also not common practice, on any OS, to have to set up a test machine or OS to demo a frickin' alternative browser.

yeah i agree some testing is required and it is a bit buggy, some may consider it too buggy to relaase others woudln't, but it's beta and i will keep saying that, you say it's as seemingly untested, i bet they tested it on windows on a mac and it worked on all the ones they tested it on , my favourite developer comment which i hear ALLLL the time is, "it worked on my machine".

what do you think they just compiled up a version and said F^&K it lets release it as beta cause we can't be F&*Ked testing it

if you do not find it to be common practice to install beta apps on test machines then you are an idiot as is anyone that installs beta app on a production machine adn does not expect there to be problems, you shoudl not be Demoing an alternaive browsewr when it is BETA, demno it when it's released and complain to me then, until then learn what beta is.

as for the numbering, they may have built version 3.0 tested it and went nah that is real bad, fixed some bugs, hence new version number, thats the way it works, it will not go to a major version number until it is released, once again thats how beta works

Sounds like you've been dealing with some terrible developers, any good one would ask for a repeatable minimal test case to reproduce the bug. The massive number of complaints seems a pretty solid confirmation that this shouldn't have been a public beta.


This isn't an OS, it's a browser. Many thousands of people have demo'd beta firefox builds alongside released builds for years, same goes for Opera. Go ask around the mozillazine forums how many have independant test labs for Firefox testing.

You're blowing the "beta" designation out of proportion.


I'm well aware of how a beta works, but apparently Apple has decided to ignore common basic practices and follow the google model.

[quote=rtk said,#13.5]
Sounds like you've been dealing with some terrible developers, any good one would ask for a repeatable minimal test case to reproduce the bug. The massive number of complaints seems a pretty solid confirmation that this shouldn't have been a public beta.
[/quote]

Umm no actually quite the opposite, some of them are brilliant, how many developers have you seen fix bugs over the phone they all say that, but we have a massive sign in our test area that says, basically if you say that you will get called for cakes.
my point is what works on one machine will not necessarily work on another

[quote=rtk said,#13.5]
This isn't an OS, it's a browser. Many thousands of people have demo'd beta firefox builds alongside released builds for years, same goes for Opera. Go ask around the mozillazine forums how many have independant test labs for Firefox testing.
You're blowing the "beta" designation out of proportion.
[/quote]

who cares what it is, it's a beta, as for an OS, thats just silly cause we all know installing an OS will mean none of the software you had on their will work, unless you upgrade in whcih case only half it will work

i am not blowing it out of proportion, you say that beta is different for OS's adn apps i disagree, beta is beta, no matter what it is it has issues hence they release it as beta


[quote=whocares78]as for the numbering, they may have built version 3.0 tested it and went nah that is real bad, fixed some bugs, hence new version number, thats the way it works, it will not go to a major version number until it is released, once again thats how beta works[/quote]
I'm well aware of how a beta works, but apparently Apple has decided to ignore common basic practices and follow the google model.[/quote]

doesn't appear so

None, same as you. You can report, triage and be told they have a solution, but unless they're reciting raw code, the fix comes after the call.


Agreed, of course. I guess this this the difference between serving 5 and 95% of the market.

Of course, this article is about the beta borking OS X installs, so it appears they're having trouble with the 5% as well.


Wow, you sure those developers of yours are brilliant? Or is this just a massive overgeneralization masquerading as some kind of fact?



The point was, the testing procedures for a beta of a simple browser (particularly as an alternative) is vastly different than for an OS, or a security package, or a system tool, etc.

Unless of course said browser is used as a gateway to dump a bunch of other crap, like quicktunes and bonjour.

Whe a develeoper tells me to open up the code window over the phone adn tells me to move a line of code to somewhere else in the code and it fixes a bug, then yes they fix it over the phone, and believe me i was as amazed as you.
especially seeing they did not even have the code in front of them. so yes she fixed it over the phone


as for your third comment, i can't see how that has anythign to do with what you quoted.

testing procedures are different for every single app, depending on what the app does it will need to be tested in a different way, and i don't think a browser is that simple to code, if it was all these browsers woudl not have so many bugs

When you find the "code window" for Safari, let us know. Was this some script or something? You're description of bug triage is pretty far off the mark.



Huh? from testing to writing code? Pick a subject! For many people "Hello world" is difficult to program, but pretty simple to test.

The point is, suggesting a clean room lab setup for a simple browser (demo and/or beta) is not realistic.

What's funny about this is, MS always gets slammed for impeding IE in windows, and now Apple is getting burned by borking other components when installing the Safari beta.

OK i work for a development company whcih is why i had access to the code, which i opened up in visual studio, if you want an extremely techy answert that hardly anyone around here would understand then i could give it to you but i try to make things easy for everyone to understand not just computer gurus



What drugsa re you on, writing code and testing are almost one and the same, you can't write code without testing, well you shouldn't anyway. hello world is rather easy for most which is why it is the first code you learn when you learn to code, if you don't understadn how to write a hello world app, you really shouldn't be programming, and yes it is easy to test.

i.e msgbox "Hello World" if you can't get that then give up



it may not be realistic but the reality is most development companies test on clean machines, not machines that have this that and everythign else installed.

You need to consider the topic at hand. Individuals running a publicly available beta are generally not developers.

We're not talking about development companies, we're talking about joe users running a public beta.

While I agree with you that more and more people are pretending to be tech savvy, I don't agree with your point of view being: "You're f*cked because you tried out our new software. Sorry."

They release it to the public so the public can find bugs and exploits, which means in turn they should at least support the people who are supporting them in finding these critical flaws. After-all, if it wasn't for the "whiners" and such, the software developers would not have said pressure forcing them to fix flaws quickly.

People, after being screwed, tend to complain about it. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, people don't like to hear it. But that doesn't mean they don't have a right to complain to someone about how they can't use their favorite program anymore, or how a scan of a photograph long lost was deleted because an unexpected error. They shouldn't have to just hold it in because you don't have any pity for others.

wivern - totally agree

EIS - so development companies should put disclaimers on their beta, if you think you know what you are doing, but don't really, then please don't use this, There should be no pressure to fix beta flaws.
Let them find all the bugs and release a decent version rather than making them put out a new beta everytime an issue is found.

the whinners don't do anythign except complain, do they mention hwo they reproduce the issue or even give great detail as to exactly what the problme is, no they just bitch adn complain saying it doesn't work, saying i can't load google is not telling anyone about an issue, what happens when you can't load goole do you get errors does anythign at all hapen, does it crash out or does it lock up, just saying it don't work is no help to anyone, if you have your favourit program on a machine and will be ****ed off if it breaks then don't install beta whihch has the possibility of breaking something. it's nothign about pity it's about being a smart user adn all these idiots installing beta and expecting it to work perfectly.

This is by no means something to insult you, and I apologize if you take offense, but grammer and correct spelling are not there just for the hell of it. They make things easier to read and to comprehend. That aside:

I agree with you 100%. My post was not meant to influence people to rush into betas and start entire threads about the massive amount of hate they have for the company who made the cursed software that destroyed such and such or made such and such not work. Not at all. I rather discourage stupidity, actually.

My post was meant to make people realize the reality: people make mistakes. Installing a beta, for SOME people is a HUGE mistake, and just because people make mistakes they should not be cast aside and their pain ignored. People should help other people even if they were blatantly stupid enough to install software that messed something up.

And, you're right. Posting on a news site may not help many people at all. But, posting on a news site such as Neowin, in fact, may end up helping many. The community here IS tech savvy, for the most part, and many of the people here are able to help people who have made mistakes such as this.

But, I could be wrong, and perhaps we should just abadon those people who have foolishly installed the beta software. Maybe we should even kick them in the nuts for being just that stupid.

i am not insulted, nor do i care, i am actually a good speller when i have to be and am not too bad at the grammer too, i just can't be bothered editing news posts to fix up typos, really whocares, but for you i will try and spell nice

i agree with almost all you say, but havving to fix the problems when people make mistakes makes me less and less sympathetic to them, as for help it's beta if it doesn't work uninstall it and get over it, let apple work out why it doens't work and let them fix it. although i must add apple did bad by not informaing user of the possible consequences of intalling it, so in the end it is not the stupid users fault, they are stupid we can't change that, it is apples fault for not infoming the users properly.

also i hate to say it but from a lot of the posts i have read around here, especially on this
topic i have to disagree with the savvyness of the users around here in fact some seem to be the total opposite and have no idea and don't see how posting here would be any different to any other site. apple needs to know about the bugs noone else

I agree Kick em all in the nuts joking

haha i woudldn't even try vista again after the release version

Should've been called "Alpha" considering how it affects OTHER software.
Beta has pretty much become a standard these days, people don't fear it anymore.

i like the fact you said "test" not use it on a production machine as my default browser like so many people seem to be doing