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Dell No Longer Supports Vista x64...and Other Rants

Morpheus Phreak   on 24 October 2007 - 10:05 · 118 comments & 87412 views

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Let me step onto my own personal soapbox for a minute.

I've always been one of those do-it-yourself, "hardcore" PC guys. I believed that the only good desktop PC was one you built yourself, and that's just what I've done for the last 10 years.

Then I found an incredible deal online through Dell last September. I realized that for under $1000 I could spec out and build a machine that would cost me a few hundred more to build myself. At that point I should have remembered the old adage, "if it's too good to be true..."

However, being the sucker that I am for a good deal, I ordered the PC. A Dell XPS 410 with Intel Core2Duo E6600 (x64 CPU, this will come into play later), 3GB of RAM, 500GB of HD space, and all the usual other accoutrements. The Dell site stated that the estimated ship date for the item was late September. Great, a 2-week lead-time shouldn't be a problem.

Then came the order detail e-mail. In the e-mail I was told that my order was to be delayed by a month. The earliest ship date was now mid-October. So I e-mailed Dell wondering why their site shows one date, yet their instant Order Confirmed e-mail showed yet another.

The response I received was as follows:

Quote -
"Thank you for contacting Dell Online Customer Care.

I understand from your e-mail that you want to check the credit status of your order I would like to inform you that the order lies in the hold status as the authorization from the dell prefered account is still pending. I would request you to kindly wait for 24 hours so that status will change."


My question at this point is who is reading my e-mail? I had asked why the site shows one status and the e-mail another. Never did I ask anything regarding my account. I wrote support another e-mail trying to be more clear. Once again I received a somewhat canned reply:

Quote -
"I would like to inform you that I have checked your records and found that your shipping date for this order is Wednesday, October 11, 2006"


Now I'm really wondering if any at Dell Support reads anything before they reply. I already knew the estimated shipping date. My issue was why their site was still giving false dates for shipping newly ordered systems. I wrote Dell a few more times and they ended up giving me a $100 Dell coupon & upgraded my shipping. The system ended up being delayed one last time, but finally shipped on October 13 and arrived on October 18.

Why all the fuss over a simple PC you ask? I test software for multiple companies and needed a testbed for both 32-bit and 64-bit software. To me this was a mission critical PC and Dell was failing to deliver, especially since the XPS line is supposed to be their top end systems.

Now before anyone gets upset and states that I should have ordered from the Dell Small Business site I'd like to point something out. The Dell Dimension 9200 & the Dell XPS 410 are the same machine with a different label on the top. The XPS systems are supposed to have the top-tier support out of all of the Dell systems.

Now flash forward almost 1-year. I haven't had a single issue with this system until August 2007. It seems the DVD-Burner has decided to stop working properly. It randomly drops out of Explorer, and sometimes doesn't show up during POST. I run through the usual diagnostics (checking my connections, changing power leads, etc.) and it still doesn't work.

At this point I decide to call XPS Support and they make me re-run through the diagnostics while I'm on the phone with them. The XPS Support tech thinks a firmware flash will fix the issue. So I do the flash and sure enough, the drive is alive again, for a month.

September is back and it's been almost a full year since I placed my order. I wake up one morning and want to burn a CD for a road trip, and the drive fails and disappears from Explorer, again. I run through my diagnostics again and it's behaving the same way. I call up XPS Support and once again they refuse to replace the drive but insist I re-flash the firmware again. I flash the firmware and sure enough it works again. I tell the tech this is what happened before, but he states it will stay fixed this time. I continue to argue and he tells me that they require 3 calls about the same issue before they can send a replacement. I request a supervisor and the tech hangs up on me.

I decided to be patient and see if he was right, if not it will fail soon enough and I can request a replacement. So another month goes by. I go on a trip to Microsoft in October for a few days. I come home the night of October 13 around 11:30pm and startup my PC. I notice the drive is missing from POST again. I call the Dell XPS Support line, and it turns out that Dell doesn't have 24/7 tech support as they claim. So I go to bed aggravated, and go to sleep intending to call them first thing in the morning.

The next morning I pick up the phone and call the XPS Support line. I wait only a few minutes and then I'm connected with a Support Agent. I detail my issue and he stops me half-way through and lets me know that he will not be able to assist me. I ask why, and he states because I am out of warranty. Sure enough my warranty expired as of 11:59pm on October 13. I was literally 9 hours out of warranty.

I asked the technician if I could purchase a warranty extension and he stated that I could have, but once you are out of warranty you can no longer purchase extensions. I then proceed to argue with the technician for over an hour. After all I had requested a replacement drive multiple times and had been turned down, and the drive had also failed while in warranty. After the end of an hour he finally agrees to setup an exchange. I receive the new drive, and it seems all is well with the world.

One Week Later...

So now I'm thinking everything will be ok. I decide to do some OS testing and validation, and so I do a fresh install of Windows Vista Ultimate x64 Edition. The install finishes and my system reboots with in-box drivers for almost all of my hardware. The first thing I do is go to the Dell Support site and download drivers, or do I? It seems that Dell has decided to stop supporting all 64-bit editions of Windows, thus nothing to download.

I make a post on their forums asking if anyone knows if it's temporary and I receive this response from a Dell employee:

Quote -
"It cost us in time and money to validate drivers. We built PCs with specific operating systems in mind. That is all we will support."


I mention to the Dell employee that he must be mistaken as that would violate their Vista Logo contract with Microsoft. At this point the Dell employee replied tersely with the following:

Quote -
"Be assured, our legal team is on top of this decision."


At this point I'm stumped and a bit angry. After all the OEM Logo requirements state, "OEMs using x64 implementations must have signed drivers available to end users if shipping a 32-bit version of Windows Vista on the system."

By removing their x64 driver support they have now violated their contract with Microsoft. Any x64-based systems they sell now with the logo are illegal. One can only help but wonder, why would Dell put themselves in this position?

I'll kindly step down from my Soapbox now, but I ask one question to all of you.

Where do we go from here?

View: Windows Logo Program v3.0 FAQ's
News source: In House

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(9 replies) #1 Neobond on 24 Oct 2007 - 10:12
All this makes it so much harder for people like me to go fully x64. I hear too many complaints mainly due to poor driver support.

Looks like it will be a while yet before it is mainstream. I know quite a few people with x64 PC's who opted to go for an x86 OS instead to cut out the aforementioned problems.
#1.1 Boogiman on 24 Oct 2007 - 10:39
Uhm.... relevant!?

I know there are allot of problems with X64 lines, but the whole articale is about Dell, and not the lack of support for X64
#1.2 +Kushan on 24 Oct 2007 - 11:29
Quote - (Boogiman said @ #1.1)
Uhm.... relevant!?

I know there are allot of problems with X64 lines, but the whole articale is about Dell, and not the lack of support for X64


It's relevant because if Dell drops support for it, less people will upgrade to it and thus driver programmers will be less inclined to program for it, thus causing a problem.
#1.3 +TCLN Ryster on 24 Oct 2007 - 13:49
Quote - (Boogiman said @ #1.1)
Uhm.... relevant!?

I know there are allot of problems with X64 lines, but the whole articale is about Dell, and not the lack of support for X64

It seems Dell's lack of support for x64 is more than relevant to the overall lack of support in x64 across the whole industry.
#1.4 MioTheGreat on 24 Oct 2007 - 14:47
Quote - (TCLN Ryster said @ #1.3)
Quote - (Boogiman said @ #1.1)
Uhm.... relevant!?

I know there are allot of problems with X64 lines, but the whole articale is about Dell, and not the lack of support for X64

It seems Dell's lack of support for x64 is more than relevant to the overall lack of support in x64 across the whole industry.


HP has good x64 support. My machine has full x64 drivers and all of their software.....I only have the Core Duo in this laptop instead of the Core 2 Duo, so I can't actually use x64, but my point is that they have all of this on their website available for download.
#1.5 Amodin on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:03
Quote - (Kushan said @ #1.2)
Quote - (Boogiman said @ #1.1)
Uhm.... relevant!?

I know there are allot of problems with X64 lines, but the whole articale is about Dell, and not the lack of support for X64


It's relevant because if Dell drops support for it, less people will upgrade to it and thus driver programmers will be less inclined to program for it, thus causing a problem.


Christ you make it sound like Dell is the only provider... when in fact they not only fail at consumer end, but also on the business end too. They are about to be seriously dropped from the company I work for, because of militaristic contracts, sub-par support (similar to the above in the article), and ridiculous misc. things I could go into - but I just don't have that much time in the day.
#1.6 +Kushan on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:42
Quote - (Amodin said @ #1.5)
Quote - (Kushan said @ #1.2)
Quote - (Boogiman said @ #1.1)
Uhm.... relevant!?

I know there are allot of problems with X64 lines, but the whole articale is about Dell, and not the lack of support for X64


It's relevant because if Dell drops support for it, less people will upgrade to it and thus driver programmers will be less inclined to program for it, thus causing a problem.


Christ you make it sound like Dell is the only provider... when in fact they not only fail at consumer end, but also on the business end too. They are about to be seriously dropped from the company I work for, because of militaristic contracts, sub-par support (similar to the above in the article), and ridiculous misc. things I could go into - but I just don't have that much time in the day.


That doesn't change the fact that they're by far the BIGGEST supplier of PC's out there.
#1.7 NPGMBR on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:35
I gave up on Dell a few years ago when they decided to give up on the entire DJ line and just told customers to deal with it.

That was the last time I invested in Dell because I was not going to put myself in the position of being screwed over again. Now, all I have to do is avoid being screwed by someone else.
#1.8 Ricmacas on 24 Oct 2007 - 18:46
I have full x64 support, with all hardware working. No downloads needed. How ? Ask for a Ubuntu x64 cd, install, and you're now fully x64 .

Ubuntu x64 version :
- Full hardware support
- Full performance
- Full x64.
#1.9 Sakesaru on 24 Oct 2007 - 20:49
Quote - (Kushan said @ #1.6)
That doesn't change the fact that they're by far the BIGGEST supplier of PC's out there.

No, Hewlett Packard are now.
(1 reply) #2 RichardK on 24 Oct 2007 - 10:14
None of the Dell systems (OptiPlex and Latitudes) we have gotten lately have a Windows Vista logo on them. They all have Windows XP logos, and mention nothing of Windows Vista.
#2.1 wilbert on 24 Oct 2007 - 23:18
We have ordered several systems with Vista loaded and they all include either the "Basic" or "Premium" logo.
#3 virtorio on 24 Oct 2007 - 10:21
An interesting read for sure, not so sure it belongs on the front page, but interesting none the less.

We have some Dell machines (both Desktops and Laptops - and not cheap ones either, but business grade machines) at work and they really are some lousy machines.

It's crazy they would cut off x64 support like that. What are they thinking?
#4 hcsprakers on 24 Oct 2007 - 10:25
I've found that Dell's support has fallen off the last couple of years, I bought my first Dell about 10 years ago and at that time there was no problems, but about five years later when Windows Me came out the service had really gone down, and the last time I talked to dell rep I cut the conversation off and sought help elsewhere. Needless to say I've probably bought my last Dell.
#5 markstock on 24 Oct 2007 - 10:29
I did notice x64 drivers were missing at Dell. I have a Optiplex 745 with Vista Ultimate x64 and have had no problems for the last year. I also have a Dell 5100cn color laser printers and I noticed the x64 drivers were gone luckily I got the latest drivers before they stabbed us in the back. Sad to say, but I think Dell is going down the tubes, removing x64 support is outrageous and short sighted. On another note it all started with Kevin Rollins and the CFO who both should be in jail, but like most executives they are allowed to get off scot free and retain their millions will the workers and customers have to suffer for their cheating/corrupt ways. I have been a loyal Dell customer for over 10 years and have bought many systems for both home and work, plus all the Dell recommendations to my fellow co-workers and friends, but I am not sure if I can trust Dell anymore. Home Server is coming out soon and HP is looking good, plus the fact I have not heard one word from Dell on their Home Server plans.
(1 reply) #6 Elite_graphix on 24 Oct 2007 - 10:39
Its a good job i purchased a HP laptop-which was vista based -and when i jumped ship to x64 vista-i found a full-i mean full set of x64 drivers on hp's website.

alot of people who havent used x64 vista-alot of drivers are available off windows update.
#6.1 iCeFuSiOn on 24 Oct 2007 - 11:47
I puchased an HP laptop as well which came with 32-bit Vista -- switched to x64 and have had absolutely 0 problems with it, the whole reason I bought an HP was because Dell pulled too much crap with me on my XPS system.
#7 Barney on 24 Oct 2007 - 10:40
I use Vista x64 Business on one of my own-built desktops and have not had any issues with it, or driver support, as it will run some 32-bit drivers and programs with out issues. IMHO, I believe that 64-bit will eventually catch on and become the next generation of computing, but with decisions like this, it is going to take longer to adopt.

Barney
#8 altermind on 24 Oct 2007 - 11:01
welcome to dell. my first and last system I got from them had a faulty psu. then another.... THEN ANOTHER. at that point I got a full refund after waiting a month.

there dell axim however rocks my socks lol and I've had no problems with there screens... but it's not actually dell who makes both of those
(8 replies) #9 bibutteryboy on 24 Oct 2007 - 11:06
How is this front page news anyway? It's one persons's experience with Dell Support. I
as far as the DVD drive goes, go spend the $30.00 bucks for a new one. and for that matter, you should have gotten the drivers before you reinstalled. Rule #1 when reformatting you're computer. AND, if you do testing for other companies, why haven't you been keeping up on updating your drivers in the first place? You've gone a full year without any driver updates?
This isn't front page news. It's not even an opinionated news piece. It's a rant. Nothing more. x64 supports was mentioned in the very last portion of this rant. Up until then it as nothing but techsupport woes.
I have a 1991 Ford Ranger that's been giving me fit's lately. Do you mind if I post my troubles on the front page?

Last edited by bibutteryboy on 24 Oct 2007 - 11:17
#9.1 mayamaniac on 24 Oct 2007 - 11:58
I agree, this piece belongs on a blog, not front page news. He could've sum up the whole article in a few sentences and delete 90% of the rant on Dell tech support.

I had the same thought about the DVD drive when reading about it, its $30 freaking bucks for a better DVD drive then the one that came with the Dell.

As for 64bit, what drivers aren't working with the Dell? He didn't even say. And when you run the Vista DVD, it checks for compatibility and let you know before you install it.

Quote -
Where do we go from here?

Umm, try returning "Windows Vista Ultimate x64 Edition" before the 30 day return policy runs out. And don't wait 9 hours after it expired to do so. We don't want to see another front page rant about that.
#9.2 HawkMan on 24 Oct 2007 - 13:21
bah blogs this and blogs that.


I'm not interested in Blogs, I don't mind a decent editorial on a news site though.
#9.3 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:21
Quote - (mayamaniac said @ #9.1)
I agree, this piece belongs on a blog, not front page news. He could've sum up the whole article in a few sentences and delete 90% of the rant on Dell tech support.

I had the same thought about the DVD drive when reading about it, its $30 freaking bucks for a better DVD drive then the one that came with the Dell.

As for 64bit, what drivers aren't working with the Dell? He didn't even say. And when you run the Vista DVD, it checks for compatibility and let you know before you install it.

Quote -
Where do we go from here?

Umm, try returning "Windows Vista Ultimate x64 Edition" before the 30 day return policy runs out. And don't wait 9 hours after it expired to do so. We don't want to see another front page rant about that.


Almost all news can be summed up in a few sentences, that's why you can just skip through what you don't care to read

Also when you're someone who is living on a SEVERELY restricted budget trying to put your wife through college for her second degree you can't always afford $30. Most of the time I can't even afford cheap disposable razors.

Also why should I pay for a hardware compenent to be replaced (regardless of the price) if it was supposed to be covered under warranty? That's what the warranty is for.

As for 64-bit drivers I posted a bit further down what doesn't work. Essentially if I ever lose my copy of my printer or sound drivers I'm screwed.

Also why would I try to return a copy of Ultimate that I received as a gift from Microsoft? Personally I feel that Dell should keep up with their legal obligations and provide the drivers that their contract states they MUST provide.
#9.4 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:47
Quote - (bibutteryboy said @ #9)
How is this front page news anyway? It's one persons's experience with Dell Support. I
as far as the DVD drive goes, go spend the $30.00 bucks for a new one. and for that matter, you should have gotten the drivers before you reinstalled. Rule #1 when reformatting you're computer. AND, if you do testing for other companies, why haven't you been keeping up on updating your drivers in the first place? You've gone a full year without any driver updates?
This isn't front page news. It's not even an opinionated news piece. It's a rant. Nothing more. x64 supports was mentioned in the very last portion of this rant. Up until then it as nothing but techsupport woes.
I have a 1991 Ford Ranger that's been giving me fit's lately. Do you mind if I post my troubles on the front page?


Hence why I ended the title of my piece with ...and Other Rants.

I made it clear from the get go that I was going to go off on a rant Dennis Miller style.

Long-winded but in the end the point gets through.
#9.5 hotrod on 25 Oct 2007 - 03:03
[quote]Where do we go from here?[/quote]
Umm, try returning "Windows Vista Ultimate x64 Edition" before the 30 day return policy runs out. And don't wait 9 hours after it expired to do so. We don't want to see another front page rant about that. [/quote]

Almost all news can be summed up in a few sentences, that's why you can just skip through what you don't care to read

Also when you're someone who is living on a SEVERELY restricted budget trying to put your wife through college for her second degree you can't always afford $30. Most of the time I can't even afford cheap disposable razors.

Also why should I pay for a hardware compenent to be replaced (regardless of the price) if it was supposed to be covered under warranty? That's what the warranty is for.

As for 64-bit drivers I posted a bit further down what doesn't work. Essentially if I ever lose my copy of my printer or sound drivers I'm screwed.

Also why would I try to return a copy of Ultimate that I received as a gift from Microsoft? Personally I feel that Dell should keep up with their legal obligations and provide the drivers that their contract states they MUST provide.[/quote]

Why would you offer to purchase an extended warranty if $30.00 for a new drive was too much for you to afford?
#9.6 Morpheus Phreak on 25 Oct 2007 - 07:22
Quote - (hotrod said @ #9.5)
Why would you offer to purchase an extended warranty if $30.00 for a new drive was too much for you to afford?


Because I have a credit account through Dell. Adding another year of warranty would add only a couple of dollars per month to my account.

I do not have $30 dollars outright to spend on a new drive. I can however afford to pay an additional $2 each month for a warranty that is supposed to provide same day on-site repair services, especially since my next payment isn't due for a couple more weeks.

Either way it's a moot point as Dell refused to allow me to extend the warranty in any case.
#9.7 mayamaniac on 25 Oct 2007 - 11:04
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #9.3)
Almost all news can be summed up in a few sentences, that's why you can just skip through what you don't care to read

It's hard to just skip the rant because you put the Vista 64bit part at the end of the article, 90% of the article at the beginning is the rant.
Quote -
Also when you're someone who is living on a SEVERELY restricted budget trying to put your wife through college for her second degree you can't always afford $30. Most of the time I can't even afford cheap disposable razors.

Also why should I pay for a hardware compenent to be replaced (regardless of the price) if it was supposed to be covered under warranty? That's what the warranty is for.

No, it isn't covered when the warranty is expired. It is not their problem that you didn't buy the extension. If I buy a TV from Best Buy, and when I try to return it on the 31st day, one day after the return policy expired, I don't expect them to take it back either. Now they can be cool about it and cover it for you anyway even though the warranty expired, but they don't have to.

Quote -
As for 64-bit drivers I posted a bit further down what doesn't work. Essentially if I ever lose my copy of my printer or sound drivers I'm screwed.

Also why would I try to return a copy of Ultimate that I received as a gift from Microsoft? Personally I feel that Dell should keep up with their legal obligations and provide the drivers that their contract states they MUST provide.

I can't even find drivers for Vista 32bit for my printer, never mind Vista 64bit. Dell can't be the only vendor that's not supporting Vista 64bit.
#9.8 Morpheus Phreak on 25 Oct 2007 - 21:11
Quote - (mayamaniac said @ #9.7)
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #9.3)
Almost all news can be summed up in a few sentences, that's why you can just skip through what you don't care to read

It's hard to just skip the rant because you put the Vista 64bit part at the end of the article, 90% of the article at the beginning is the rant.
Quote -
Also when you're someone who is living on a SEVERELY restricted budget trying to put your wife through college for her second degree you can't always afford $30. Most of the time I can't even afford cheap disposable razors.

Also why should I pay for a hardware compenent to be replaced (regardless of the price) if it was supposed to be covered under warranty? That's what the warranty is for.

No, it isn't covered when the warranty is expired. It is not their problem that you didn't buy the extension. If I buy a TV from Best Buy, and when I try to return it on the 31st day, one day after the return policy expired, I don't expect them to take it back either. Now they can be cool about it and cover it for you anyway even though the warranty expired, but they don't have to.

Quote -
As for 64-bit drivers I posted a bit further down what doesn't work. Essentially if I ever lose my copy of my printer or sound drivers I'm screwed.

Also why would I try to return a copy of Ultimate that I received as a gift from Microsoft? Personally I feel that Dell should keep up with their legal obligations and provide the drivers that their contract states they MUST provide.

I can't even find drivers for Vista 32bit for my printer, never mind Vista 64bit. Dell can't be the only vendor that's not supporting Vista 64bit.


On a legality basis you are very far off in terms of warranty support.
If I purchase an item that fails repeatedly within the warranty period and they refuse me service because of a 3 strikes policy they have they are still legally required to replace the item upon the third failure.

That drive had already failed twice and they had been notified. Legally they had an obligation to replace that item since the original failure and notification of that failure happened within the warranty period.

Now if it had been a first failure I would agree with you and so would the law.


Also the post was re-formatted by the staff in a way that I approve of. They added the bolding down below at the one week later part. That makes it much easier to know that a new part of the story starts there.
#10 spotts on 24 Oct 2007 - 11:38
Man thats harsh. My experience with Dell Notebooks over the last year has been nothing but excellent.

But if I purchased a system supplied by Dell with Windows Vista 64 bit and they pulled the drivers from their site I would be very upset too. What a stupid thing for Dell to do. They could at least leave the old drivers there for download.

When you get a Dell PC they give you the Windows CD but also a CD with all drivers for the system as well. This will not be the updated drivers but at least it will work the same as when the unit was shipped. also most drivers can be downloaded from the makers site. An example might be intel network drivers can be downloaded from intel direct. I often update drivers directly from the maker as Dell often is many months behind.

Hope you get your system up and running or it looks like you will need to get Vista 32bit installed.
#11 starless.bible.black on 24 Oct 2007 - 11:42
I must have been really lucky with the last two Dell purchases. I had some problems with my desktop PC, including power supply and hard drive. But, whenever I called them I did not wait longer than 5 min each, called even past midnight. I told them about the symptoms and what I had done to narrow down the cause. I always called when I knew exactly what I needed, e.g. a replacement for my psu. there was no problem to convince the techrep about the loud noise of the psu. Yes, they did run me through the diagnostics with the hdd. But at the end of each call they gave me a confirmation number for the shipment of the replacement. The replacements arrived no later than 3 days after the call (DHL). Same with my notebook for which I asked for os disks and later a battery problem.

again, I may be just lucky, but my experience with Dell in the last 24 months was excellent. I built my PCs for a while before that, because a couple years ago I had similar problems with Dell that you experienced. For me they got better. Hope it will change for you as well, just in case you ever buy from them again.

tgd
(3 replies) #12 phantasmorph on 24 Oct 2007 - 11:51
I've never had a problem with any of the...5 Dell systems I've owned, one of which I'm posting this on right now, and it's a *gasp* XPS 410, running Vista 32-bit. Then again, I never decided to throw a bitch-fit because a company wouldn't support some decision I made outside of the original shipped purchase. x64 wasn't an option when you originally purchased the system, so what exactly leads you to believe they'd supply you with drivers? And not only that, but why can't you do a little investigation on your part and download the drivers from the original part makers? The only thing you might have a problem with is the onboard sound. Motherboard and RAID controller all work just peachy with standard current Intel drivers, as does the ethernet. In fact, the *only* driver I use that is Dell supplied is the onboard audio driver, and we have the exact same system. So what exactly are you having a problem with?

And why isn't this marked with an 'Editorial' tag? I clicked this expecting to read news, not just a long-winded personal rant.

Last edited by phantasmorph on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:03
#12.1 colinbo on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:07
To run along the same logic line then they shouldn't provide me an option to put in 3GB or more of RAM since it really can't be effectively used under a 32-bit operating system. We are planning to upgrade our OptiPlex-based development workstations to 64-bit and this puts a wrench in the plan. Sure you can grab the drivers from elsewhere, but what happens when they refuse to troubleshoot hardware problems because you are running an unsupported OS (that was previously supported)? It's not an unlikely scenario indeed as anyone who has dealt with vendor support might have experienced. Most companies are forced to phase out support over time to help existing customers make a transition. Dropping support for x64 without any notice is irresponsible and leaves customers like us up the creek without a paddle. It's also more than just the Audio driver as well, it's the OpenManage client, the BIOS update process (are they going to drop support for running the BIOS update under 64-bit too while they are at it?), and the possibility of seeing a number of issues that cannot be resolved without some degree of x64 support.
#12.2 phantasmorph on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:19
As far as I'm aware, Vista x64 was never an option for the XPS line, hence there were never any 64-bit drivers available for it. Would it be just as fair for me to throw a fit because Dell doesn't supply me with their own drivers for linux if/when I boot into that OS?

And I fail to see how this is relevant at all, considering they sell systems that ship with Vista x64, such as the Precision Workstation 690, which has 64-bit drivers available for download. So they've not dropped support for anything of the sort.
#12.3 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:11
Quote - (phantasmorph said @ #12.2)
As far as I'm aware, Vista x64 was never an option for the XPS line, hence there were never any 64-bit drivers available for it. Would it be just as fair for me to throw a fit because Dell doesn't supply me with their own drivers for linux if/when I boot into that OS?

And I fail to see how this is relevant at all, considering they sell systems that ship with Vista x64, such as the Precision Workstation 690, which has 64-bit drivers available for download. So they've not dropped support for anything of the sort.


Phantasamorph, maybe I didn't make it clear enough in the original editorial.

Part of the Vista Logo Requirements is that you MUST (yes that is in the contract, MUST) supply x64 drivers for all systems sold that have x64 hardware, even if they ship with Vista 32-bit out of the box.

Dell already had those drivers up and posted. They chose to remove them within the last week after having updates coming for almost a year.

I wouldn't have cared so much if they didn't update the drivers, but now they have completely pulled the plug on systems they were still selling as of last week.

As for what drivers they pulled that are important to me?

As of last week there was a Vista 64-bit version of the driver for my A922 All-In-One Dell Printer. This week? Gone

How about my sound card drivers to enable more than just basic "stereo" sound? Gone

There's also my wifes PC. I now cannot upgrade her to Vista 64 because of Dell pulling the support from their website. She has a Dimension E520 that we bought for her to use as both a rendering machine and for her own personal use. I had intended to upgrade her to 8GB of RAM for her birthday this weekend. Now what do I do?

#13 Islander on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:09
Well, I never bought anything from Dell, and seeing this article, I never will. If everyone does so, then some people end up understanding that it's not only about selling, but also about quality and support. I went away from HP because of a similar reason, and they can build the best and cheapest and most amazing printer or scanner or whatever, I am not going to buy a single piece from them anymore. I'm the one who decides who to give my money to. So are you, drop Dell, get anything else. Make this world a better place

(Wow, sounds like tv spot... or scientology....)
(5 replies) #14 Chicane-UK on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:16
I remeber in my last job, we had Dell come in to try and sell us some servers. When they said "You've never experienced computing till you've experienced Dell" I knew I never wanted to deal with them again!

This is a bit of an interesting predicament though and it really seems like big vendors like Dell are starting to rebel against Microsoft. Its easy enough to rail against them for not providing drivers but then from a support point of view the 64bit / 32bit mashup must be an absolute NIGHTMARE if you have ma and pa 'new user' being guided through driver downloads and updates over the phone.

You can see why folks like Apple are making such huge profits in recent years. With a sealed box, with a single version of the operating system, support is going to be FAR less complicated.

Will be interested to see where it goes from here.
#14.1 +DrunkenMaster on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:28
You forgot to add, Leopard is fully 64-bit out of the box and device driver support to boot.
#14.2 phantasmorph on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:30
I dunno, I think 17,772 topics in just the OS X 10.4 Installation and Setup forum speaks volumes for that theory. Guess there are people all over that can't figure out how to install an OS properly...
#14.3 GreyWolfSC on 24 Oct 2007 - 13:46
Quote - (DrunkenMaster said @ #14.1)
You forgot to add, Leopard is fully 64-bit out of the box and device driver support to boot.


Sure, as long as you don't mind throwing the computer out and buying a new one when you want to upgrade something.
#14.4 MioTheGreat on 24 Oct 2007 - 14:49
Quote - (DrunkenMaster said @ #14.1)
You forgot to add, Leopard is fully 64-bit out of the box and device driver support to boot.


When you have to support about 3 different setups, it's not much of a feat to get good 64-bit drivers going.
#14.5 +DrunkenMaster on 25 Oct 2007 - 00:59
Quote - (phantasmorph said @ #14.2)
I dunno, I think 17,772 topics in just the OS X 10.4 Installation and Setup forum speaks volumes for that theory. Guess there are people all over that can't figure out how to install an OS properly...



I can't comment on idiots having problems installing OS X. And 17,000 odd posts out of several million users (and multiple posts by a few users) is hardly representative. I'm sure there are far more people having Windows installation problems, or Vista problems, if this is the issue you're trying to point out. I've always inserted DVD, gotten a cup of coffee and 10 minutes later OS X Tiger is installed. I'm sure Leopard will be the same.

However, your post doesn't even mention the issue brought up in parent thread or my post. OS X Leopard supports 64-bit right out of the box. No device driver problems. No support issues. Nothing. No new software to install, no breakage of many popular apps. Nothing.

Feel or react however you wish. I use OS X and Windows. OS X does have some problems but OSes are complex enough anyways that they're bound to have problems wether its one company that makes it or open source. My daily use of OS X is far less frustrating than my 15 years of Windows use.
#15 bucko on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:26
lol Dell is annoying with all the software crap they put on anyway, I built my new computer, running XP x64 and Vista x32 side by side no problems yet .
(1 reply) #16 Victor Hugo on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:32
I think it is an entirely legitimate request on the part of the customer that if a vendor is selling a box with 64bit innards, they should at the very least supply the 64bit drivers whether or not they choose to support it is another matter, but they should make them available for the hardcore users out there. it seems a bit of a waste to flog a box with a 64 bit cpu which can never be fully utilised. just flog 32bit and be done with it if not.


i agree with the point chicane uk made about apple. i'm so frustrated with trying to get even the most simple things working with vista (and i'm talking about 32 bit drivers) that i can see why more people are buying an apple computer.

i'd personally find it very difficult moving over to apple, not just because of learning a whole new way of doing things, but the cost of having to buy all new software, such as a decent office suite, but that said, if i was buying a new computer for the first time, i'd buy apple.
#16.1 Ledgem on 24 Oct 2007 - 17:50
I recently received a Macbook Pro, and felt the same way you did. A computer is a tool, and the OS is nothing more than a table to work on. The hardware on this system is very nice, and I considered using Bootcamp, figuring I'd stay in Windows most of the time. I also bought Parallels. For my first week with the system, I must have been using Windows XP through Parallels 90% of the time. Then I started finding alternatives to my software on the Mac OS side. It's been a week or two since I last used Windows through this system.

I'd recommend VMWare Fusion over Parallels, these days. Regardless, the point is that modern Apple systems are fast enough that you can virtualize with barely a performance hit. Unless you're a hard-core gamer or have certain specialized needs, virtualizing will let you slowly transition without losing any functionality. If my desktop system were faster, I'd probably have transitioned it fully to Linux doing a similar method.
#17 msmcougar on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:37
The same warranty issue happened to my wife and her ThinkPad T42. The power adapter brick had worn loose and there were exposed raw wires coming out. She called Lenovo (not IBM anymore). The tech informed her that even thought the problem as something we had seen for a few days, because she called 7 hours after the 3-year warranty expired, she would not be able to get a replacement under the warranty. That's a sure-fire way to lose long-time customer loyalty.

Both she and I were quite upset to say the least! I used to love IBM's tech support for the two Thinkpads that I've had. I've always thought that they were top-notch, until they sold out to Lenovo. Maybe all consumer PC companies are that bad these days.... I don't know.

I'm lately turning into the do-it-yourself type. In fact I just ordered parts to build anther PC myself.
#18 cloudstrife13 on 24 Oct 2007 - 12:59
This is why I want Windows Seven to be 64bit only that way we will have driver support... That was Microsofts plan but they think to many people with 32bit systems will buy into it so they want to sell more. Most computers in the last few years have 64bit and 2-3 years from now I don't see it that hard to have a 64bit OS, the people with 32bit CPUs probably will want to run XP or Vista anyways...
#19 xMorpheousx416 on 24 Oct 2007 - 13:07
Believe it... I've helped a few with Dell's. They truly have just as many support horror stories as the rest of them do, though they have a ways to go to catch up with Gateway.
#20 Croquant on 24 Oct 2007 - 13:12
At least his incompetent tech support team spoke understandable English. Nothing like not being able to understand your incompetent tech support person. Don't you hate it when that happens?
(1 reply) #21 archer75 on 24 Oct 2007 - 13:14
I have been running Vista x64 since release. I have no issues with drivers. Anytime 32bit drivers come out so do 64bit drivers.
I do have 32bit Vista on my HTPC but I prefer 64bit. It just feels more robust, faster and more stable.
#21.1 Baked on 24 Oct 2007 - 13:24
Quote - (archer75 said @ #21)
I have been running Vista x64 since release. I have no issues with drivers. Anytime 32bit drivers come out so do 64bit drivers.
I do have 32bit Vista on my HTPC but I prefer 64bit. It just feels more robust, faster and more stable.


Yep same here been running Vista Ultimate x64 since the betas and nevr had a issue really.

Sure the MB AC97 sound driver was crap until about may....but it did still work. And after all MS isn't to blame for poor driver support....how long did these hardware vendors know vista was coming for ????


Vista x64 rox my socks

#22 GreyWolfSC on 24 Oct 2007 - 13:43
All of the quoted e-mails from support that are listed look like they were written with English as a second language. The first e-mail that didn't make sense and had nothing to do with my question would have been answered with an immediate order cancellation.
(7 replies) #23 Foub on 24 Oct 2007 - 14:13
Did you inform Microsoft that Dell was in violation of their contract?
#23.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:14
Quote - (Foub said @ #23)
Did you inform Microsoft that Dell was in violation of their contract?


Yes I am working with my contacts at Microsoft to hopefully set Dell straight on this.
#23.2 Amodin on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:31
Quote - (Foub said @ #23)
Did you inform Microsoft that Dell was in violation of their contract?


Dell can write their own contracts.
#23.3 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:35
Quote - (Amodin said @ #23.2)
Quote - (Foub said @ #23)
Did you inform Microsoft that Dell was in violation of their contract?


Dell can write their own contracts.


No they can't.

The OEM guidelines are quite clear. In order to use the Vista Logo you have to comply with the Program Requirements.

One of those is that you MUST supply an x64 driver for any x64 hardware you sell, even if you only ship it with a 32-bit OS.

It's all in the link I provided in my editorial.
#23.4 Amodin on 24 Oct 2007 - 17:13
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #23.3)
Quote - (Amodin said @ #23.2)
Quote - (Foub said @ #23)
Did you inform Microsoft that Dell was in violation of their contract?


Dell can write their own contracts.


No they can't.

The OEM guidelines are quite clear. In order to use the Vista Logo you have to comply with the Program Requirements.

One of those is that you MUST supply an x64 driver for any x64 hardware you sell, even if you only ship it with a 32-bit OS.

It's all in the link I provided in my editorial.


Odd, I will have my Dell Rep verify again for me as well as my software vendor telling me the same thing.
#23.5 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 17:28
Quote - (Amodin said @ #23.4)
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #23.3)
Quote - (Amodin said @ #23.2)
Quote - (Foub said @ #23)
Did you inform Microsoft that Dell was in violation of their contract?


Dell can write their own contracts.


No they can't.

The OEM guidelines are quite clear. In order to use the Vista Logo you have to comply with the Program Requirements.

One of those is that you MUST supply an x64 driver for any x64 hardware you sell, even if you only ship it with a 32-bit OS.

It's all in the link I provided in my editorial.


Odd, I will have my Dell Rep verify again for me as well as my software vendor telling me the same thing.



From what I'm hearing you won't get a response from your Dell Rep other than they no longer have to provide drivers.

That's only partially correct. They have dropped themselves from the Vista Logo program with new PC's it seems, but they are still obligated to provide the support for PC's that they already shipped as part of the Logo Program.
#23.6 HawkMan on 24 Oct 2007 - 18:37
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #23.5)
Quote - (Amodin said @ #23.4)
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #23.3)
Quote - (Amodin said @ #23.2)
Quote - (Foub said @ #23)
Did you inform Microsoft that Dell was in violation of their contract?


Dell can write their own contracts.


No they can't.

The OEM guidelines are quite clear. In order to use the Vista Logo you have to comply with the Program Requirements.

One of those is that you MUST supply an x64 driver for any x64 hardware you sell, even if you only ship it with a 32-bit OS.

It's all in the link I provided in my editorial.


Odd, I will have my Dell Rep verify again for me as well as my software vendor telling me the same thing.



From what I'm hearing you won't get a response from your Dell Rep other than they no longer have to provide drivers.

That's only partially correct. They have dropped themselves from the Vista Logo program with new PC's it seems, but they are still obligated to provide the support for PC's that they already shipped as part of the Logo Program.


It's too bad that the regular customers don't understand what it entails that the Dell computers don't have the vista certification logo.
#23.7 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 18:51
Quote - (HawkMan said @ #23.6)
It's too bad that the regular customers don't understand what it entails that the Dell computers don't have the vista certification logo.


I completely agree.

That's part of why I felt it was important to get this story out there.
(1 reply) #24 daniel_rh on 24 Oct 2007 - 14:29
Dell is good for the pre-sale not the post-sale
#24.1 RAID 0 on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:25
Sounds like most companies now-a-days.
#25 Masters on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:16
I used dell for 2 years while working as a Network Admin for a school district in California. I never had a problem with Dell Support. We actually DROPPED HP because of shipping delays and poor support.

Last week I spilt sprite on my keyboard on an airplane. I got online with dell online chat the next day and had a replacement arrive 1 1/2 days later at no cost to my self.

Dell will not support any operating system the machine does not ship with, FYI. Though I don't know if you customized your drivers based on your machine. If indeed Dell did stop supporting x64 I think that is a bad decision as well.

You experience with purchasing through dell vs building your own computer though sounds novice. You didn't think to extend your warranty. If you had built your own you would have had to pay for your DVD drive your self anyway. Instead dell replaced your drive for free.

On the other hand dell has always offered poor driver support. My XPS M1710 only has very old drivers listed on their website for x32 bit.
#26 markstock on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:19
Don't you have to wonder why Dell is doing this? Are they trying to save money? x64 drivers is a small piece of their total expenses, plus now you are going to lose some business because of this. If they are trying to save money this way they are in rough shape. It is amazing how far Dell has fallen. HP is eating their lunch and Carly has to be smiling because she has to get some credit for HP's turn around because of the some of the decisions she made, some good some maybe bad. And given the fact x64 will be the norm at some point makes no sense. x64 adoption has been so slow I would be hard pressed to say when it will be the norm, but it has to be 5 plus years and maybe closer to 10 years or more.
(2 replies) #27 EJocys on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:19
DELL have inefficient drivers support system. For example they have different versions of Intel Audio Drivers for range of different PC's even if same driver works for all of them. This creates situation when outdated drivers stays in the list for older PC's and creates image of crappy and slow support.

DELL must point direct links to original drivers if available and drop to wrap everything into DELL executables. Because DELL just wasting money and resources. For example there is no need to wrap nVidia or ATI desktop video drivers. They can provide direct links to "Intel Chipset Software Installation Utility" or "Toshiba Bluetooth Stack" (http://aps2.toshiba-tro.de/bluetooth/pages/download.php) which works on Dell notebooks too.

#27.1 rm20010 on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:36
I wouldn't say wrapping drivers into their own SFX executables is "inefficient." In my opinion, Dell's driver support site is one of the easiest sites to navigate around for drivers. They also offer driver CDs of your notebook on purchase, something I don't recall Toshiba ever doing.
#27.2 jasondefaoite on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:10
Quote - (EJocys said @ #27)
DELL have inefficient drivers support system. For example they have different versions of Intel Audio Drivers for range of different PC's even if same driver works for all of them. This creates situation when outdated drivers stays in the list for older PC's and creates image of crappy and slow support.

DELL must point direct links to original drivers if available and drop to wrap everything into DELL executables. Because DELL just wasting money and resources. For example there is no need to wrap nVidia or ATI desktop video drivers. They can provide direct links to "Intel Chipset Software Installation Utility" or "Toshiba Bluetooth Stack" (http://aps2.toshiba-tro.de/bluetooth/pages/download.php) which works on Dell notebooks too.


That's a bad idea. Dell, like HP and any responsible vendor, needs to test the drivers before actually deploying them and having to support any issues which could crop up. This is what leads to different systems potentially having different versions of the same drivers. What was released was fully tested on that system.

Unless Dell could also push the support of issues back to intel/ATI/nVidia ... what you're suggesting won't happen.
(1 reply) #28 DJLunacy on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:26
Yeah this isn't really news.

And it's not Dell's fault the drive broke and you called 9 hours after the warranty vanished.. Yeah it sucks but you should keep track of that stuff... Outlook works wonders.
#28.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:39
Quote - (DJLunacy said @ #2
Yeah this isn't really news.

And it's not Dell's fault the drive broke and you called 9 hours after the warranty vanished.. Yeah it sucks but you should keep track of that stuff... Outlook works wonders.


Did you not read the story?

It was the 3rd time that drive had failed. Dell had refused to replace it on 2 prior occasions.

I also was out of town at a conference on the Microsoft Campus for several days.
I didn't get back home until after the XPS Support Line had closed.
My only option was to call them first thing in the morning, which I did.

Also of course it isn't Dell's fault the drive broke, it's the manufacturers fault. However Dell supplies the warranty on that part. The reason why they ended up giving it to me was they couldn't argue the fact that I had indeed attempted to replace it twice already during the warranty period.

Also, just as an FYI, I do keep track of things very well.

I have a PocketPC Phone (Samsung SCH-i730) and a PocketPC (Dell Axim X5)
Everything is synchronized via Exchange on my server so that I know when things are going on.
I had the warranty dates in my calendar, but when you're gone for nearly a week and you come back and it's not working what can you do?
#29 Obry on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:29
I had to revert to x86 both on my desktop and laptop due to lack of driver and application support... my printer at home wasn't supported on x64 (and still isn't), sound card didn't work, my WiFi on my (Dell) laptop didn't work... also I'm a web developer and use ColdFusion which they decided to only support x64 on Solaris (thanks Adobe - hopefully by the next version of CF you'll completely put it in it's grave).

That's pretty sad as it looks like we'll have to wait for the next version of Windows (at least) b4 we start seeing x64 support that's not a complete joke and pain in the arse...
#30 Hierophant on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:33
Dell is typically quite terrible in post-sale, yes.
(2 replies) #31 RAID 0 on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:52
Dude! You just got owned!

#31.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:03
Quote - (RAID 0 said @ #31)
Dude! You just got owned!



Oh believe me I'm fully aware of that lol.

That's what I wrote this editorial and am trying to deal with Microsoft on this.
#31.2 RAID 0 on 25 Oct 2007 - 00:52
All joking aside, I hope everything works out for you in the end.
(1 reply) #32 acies on 24 Oct 2007 - 15:53
I also have a 1 year old Dell (never again) which I only recently realised is 64bit (though it just came with XPHome32).

So do I know own an "illegal" product??? And can I get money out of this??


#32.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:05
Quote - (acies said @ #32)
I also have a 1 year old Dell (never again) which I only recently realised is 64bit (though it just came with XPHome32).

So do I know own an "illegal" product??? And can I get money out of this??


For me it's not about money, it's about what's right.

They have violated the Logo Requirements. They need to make it right.
(1 reply) #33 +majortom1981 on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:01
Why does everyone care? Dell rarely updates their drivers in the first place. All my updated drivers come from that peripherals manufacturer anyway.

#33.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:05
Quote - (majortom1981 said @ #33)
Why does everyone care? Dell rarely updates their drivers in the first place. All my updated drivers come from that peripherals manufacturer anyway.


Right, but my Dell printer and my onboard sound aren't going to get up and grow their own drivers
(3 replies) #34 keyboardwarrior on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:02
Dell has recently decided to pull OS drivers for systems that the OS was not validated for.

That means most systems had the 64-bit drivers pulled.

From my previous knowledge you can use 64-bit drivers from other systems, considering that Dell tends to use similar components from time to time. The drivers may not be visible but they may exist, please search the file library at http://support.dell.com/
#34.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:06
Quote - (keyboardwarrior said @ #34)
Dell has recently decided to pull OS drivers for systems that the OS was not validated for.

That means most systems had the 64-bit drivers pulled.

From my previous knowledge you can use 64-bit drivers from other systems, considering that Dell tends to use similar components from time to time. The drivers may not be visible but they may exist, please search the file library at http://support.dell.com/


If the systems were not validated then why do they contain the Vista Logo?

Part of the OEM Requirements for the Vista Logo states that you MUST supply an x64 driver to the end-user for any x64 hardware sold.
#34.2 keyboardwarrior on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:16
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #34.1)
Quote - (keyboardwarrior said @ #34)
Dell has recently decided to pull OS drivers for systems that the OS was not validated for.

That means most systems had the 64-bit drivers pulled.

From my previous knowledge you can use 64-bit drivers from other systems, considering that Dell tends to use similar components from time to time. The drivers may not be visible but they may exist, please search the file library at http://support.dell.com/


If the systems were not validated then why do they contain the Vista Logo?

Part of the OEM Requirements for the Vista Logo states that you MUST supply an x64 driver to the end-user for any x64 hardware sold.


I am not sure why they pulled it when it was available before.

But one thing I do notice is that they no longer put the Vista logo on any of their systems.
#34.3 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:19
Quote - (keyboardwarrior said @ #34.2)
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #34.1)
Quote - (keyboardwarrior said @ #34)
Dell has recently decided to pull OS drivers for systems that the OS was not validated for.

That means most systems had the 64-bit drivers pulled.

From my previous knowledge you can use 64-bit drivers from other systems, considering that Dell tends to use similar components from time to time. The drivers may not be visible but they may exist, please search the file library at http://support.dell.com/


If the systems were not validated then why do they contain the Vista Logo?

Part of the OEM Requirements for the Vista Logo states that you MUST supply an x64 driver to the end-user for any x64 hardware sold.


I am not sure why they pulled it when it was available before.

But one thing I do notice is that they no longer put the Vista logo on any of their systems.


Going forward that may be all well and good, but for systems that shipped containing that logo they are legally required to provide the drivers.

It's a shame really
(2 replies) #35 MegaRainX on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:44
Saidly, this is true of all dell systems. They don't support any of their vista drivers. My video driver has some major bugs, and wasn't ment for vista, yet, they insist that its the one that works. Also from the XPS line.
#35.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:46
Quote - (MegaRainX said @ #35)
Saidly, this is true of all dell systems. They don't support any of their vista drivers. My video driver has some major bugs, and wasn't ment for vista, yet, they insist that its the one that works. Also from the XPS line.


Good luck man.

What video card do you have? I may know of some drivers that would support your card
#35.2 MegaRainX on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:32
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #35.1)
Quote - (MegaRainX said @ #35)
Saidly, this is true of all dell systems. They don't support any of their vista drivers. My video driver has some major bugs, and wasn't ment for vista, yet, they insist that its the one that works. Also from the XPS line.


Good luck man.

What video card do you have? I may know of some drivers that would support your card


Nvidia gForce Go 7900 GS. Email me them if you do. Its megarain.x@gmail.com
(3 replies) #36 Verge on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:55
This is obviously a dell bashing article. If you wanted top teir support for a mission critical computer, you should have ordered a business class pc... PERIOD


drive isn't working, connect to online tech support... chat with the guy for about 5 minutes... he will tell you to do a bunch of different crap, after you are done, tell him the drive still isn't working... taaa-daaa, new drive on your doorstep next business day(assuming you purchased the appropriate warranty, which i would if i considered a PC to be "critical"



although there is a certain irony, as their driver site is down right now... lol, gg dell
#36.1 gigapixels on 24 Oct 2007 - 17:20
Glad you missed the entire point. GG.
#36.2 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 17:25
Quote - (Verge said @ #36)
This is obviously a dell bashing article. If you wanted top teir support for a mission critical computer, you should have ordered a business class pc... PERIOD


drive isn't working, connect to online tech support... chat with the guy for about 5 minutes... he will tell you to do a bunch of different crap, after you are done, tell him the drive still isn't working... taaa-daaa, new drive on your doorstep next business day(assuming you purchased the appropriate warranty, which i would if i considered a PC to be "critical"



although there is a certain irony, as their driver site is down right now... lol, gg dell


XPS support is supposed to be their cream of the crop support tier.

It's supposed to even trump their business support as we pay a large premium to be XPS customers.
#36.3 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 18:15
Quote - (Verge said @ #36)
although there is a certain irony, as their driver site is down right now... lol, gg dell


Here's another piece of irony for you.

I just went back to their driver download site and the OS option now is completely blank for every model of PC and printer that once had x64 support.

I think that means they may have realized that I made a very good point and by getting the word out to the community backed them into a corner.
(2 replies) #37 aStRaLgOd on 24 Oct 2007 - 16:56
Wow, was thinkin of buying a dell laptop, hah, happy I saw this.
#37.1 +majortom1981 on 24 Oct 2007 - 17:34
Actually the inspiron and vostro laptops are great. I have a inspiron 1520 and ahve not had a single problem. There desktops are a different story but Dell laptops are pretty good and really cheap if you find the right coupons and discounts.
#37.2 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 17:43
Quote - (majortom1981 said @ #37.1)
Actually the inspiron and vostro laptops are great. I have a inspiron 1520 and ahve not had a single problem. There desktops are a different story but Dell laptops are pretty good and really cheap if you find the right coupons and discounts.


It depends on the laptop. I will say that I have an Inspiron 6000 that has done me a lot of good over the last few years. I recently gave it to my wife for her schooling. I figured she could use a laptop that's just hers since she's working on that second degree.
#38 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 17:42
Here's even more irony for you.

I've been having a back and forth conversation with someone from Dell who claims that I am violating the ToS of my account with Dell by posting my negative views of the company and that I could be permanently banned from the Dell Community.

Here's what they said to say about the systems I own from Dell:

Quote -
The particular systems you are quoting: the 410 and the E520 are not x64, just 32 bit. Those systems were not shipped, or logoed with x64, and therefore are not supported.


My reply:
Quote -
My XPS 410 and my Wife's E520 contain Intel Core2Duo processors.

Those processors contain EM64T technology. I should know. I've run Vista 64-bit on both of them.

So tell me how I could have ran Vista Ultimate x64 on a system that didn't have a 64-bit processor?

My system as well as my wife's both have the Vista logos on them, that means that Dell is contractually bound to provide support.


The Dell Reply To That:

Quote -
The issue is that, we did not release those systems with the x64 O/S, so therefore we do not have drivers available.



So an official Dell employee doesn't even know WHAT hardware they ship in their systems (and no this is not one of the support agents) and on top of that claims t hat they don't have drivers.

Where did the drivers go? Did they magically disappear into some great big could in the sky?

I smell fear.
#39 soldier1st on 24 Oct 2007 - 17:47
i would never buy anything dell because they are idiots and the techs are useless and give you wrong info and if you ask a question they tell you something different,if any i would buy from toshiba or acer and thats about it.and building your own system ensures you get high quality parts.
#40 michaelof36 on 24 Oct 2007 - 18:00
Dell just sucks plain and simple. Yeah it might seem convenient to have someone build your computer for you but hows the quality of their items? I bought a Dimension 8400 several years back and my hdd started failing, my keyboard stopped working from one day to the next, my dvd drive (not a writer) stopped working (just like in this article) and my TV tuner died. Did I mention it was all in the month after my warranty expired? Those Dells might work great till the warranty is out. Thank god I knew what I was doing when I replaced these parts, now it works flawlessly (knock on wood) the only original part is the motherboard only because its a proprietary part. Thats another issue, Dell has proprietary parts that can not be swapped out for store bought parts, hence, the ink for their printers! I learned one thing from Dell, BUILD YOUR OWN COMPUTER.
(1 reply) #41 TRC on 24 Oct 2007 - 19:06
Can anyone tell me why I need 64-bit? I think most people don't and that's the problem. Aside from supporting more memory than I need I haven't seen any advantages, only disadvantages at the moment.
#41.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:23
Quote - (TRC said @ #41)
Can anyone tell me why I need 64-bit? I think most people don't and that's the problem. Aside from supporting more memory than I need I haven't seen any advantages, only disadvantages at the moment.


Support for more memory of course is one as you mentioned.
You can run applications designed with x64 support in mind, which means faster apps.
You also gain performance when compressing/uncompressing, encrypting/decrypting, encoding/decoding
The primary reason being there are more registers in 64-bit than in 32-bit.

Also the 64-bit version of Vista is more secure due to PatchGuard, Signed Driver Requirements, and various other low level code improvements.
#42 gnuman on 24 Oct 2007 - 19:20
I don't know why if you are testing software why did you not just buy a 64 bit system and run VMWare to do the testing on one system as you can run multiple images at once it would be easier. Then again that would not solve the driver issue...

Linux as the host with vmware and vista x64 and x32 run in VMWAre and driver hell is over

Supposedly they 64 bit version still can't see more than 3 GB its a hardware issue I think from Intel.
#43 Tzimisce on 24 Oct 2007 - 19:31
on the dell topic, it just so happens i ordered a desktop from them... oooh back about 5 years or so ago, and the thing ran very well for about 2 years and then i got similar hardware failures and finally the mobo cooked =].
#44 +majortom1981 on 24 Oct 2007 - 19:48
The mods are getting evry nasty on this on their forums. They are telling everybody to contact dells legal team.

If dell keeps it up they will continue to lose customers.
#45 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 20:08
Woohoo, Dell has caved.

I just received this reply from Dell regarding this issue:

Quote -
Morpheus Phreak,

This is what I got today -

Dell does provide both 32-bit and 64-bit Vista drivers for the XPS 410. Checking our website it appears that the option for XP and Vista 64 are missing, I can get those added back. Luckily most of the drivers posted for Vista 32-bit also cover Vista 64. Some of the drivers like the network driver and most of the applications are limited to 32. For those exceptions, the drivers are available on the Resource DVD and you can locate the drivers using the search feature (a difficult procedure at the moment, I’m afraid). Andy and I will work on getting the 64-bit OS selection added back.


Chalk up a win for the little guy who wasn't afraid to stand up to the multi-billion dollar corporation.
#46 Tirnaog on 24 Oct 2007 - 20:36
Hey mate, forget Dell.

Want a great Pc at a good price and frgigen great customer support, try DigitalStormOnline.
These guys truely rock. Check the forums out before ya make the decision.

And as for Vista64. Runs great. All HW seen and working. At the begining I do believe the HW compaines droped the ball on haviong drivers out there. But now its pretty good. Its even ran all the Game demos I can throw at it.

Wouldn't go back.
(3 replies) #47 backslash on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:05
The poster of this article stated this problem incorrectly. Dell does not offer x64 support for its consumer lines. I have a Dell Precision Workstation 670 and Dell still fully supports XP x64, and I also looked up the more recent Precision 690 which has full Vista x64 support. This makes sense because Dell ships these systems with up to 16GB of RAM.

As for your warranty issues, next time you need a system don't be a cheapo. I have a 5 year (yes, 5 YEAR! warranty on my 670 with gold technical support. I am on the 3rd year and am only now having my first problem (failing PSU). They offer to replace it on the FIRST call and they are replacing other components "just to be safe", such as the DVD Burner and the wiring harness. Oh and also, I am connected with an english speaking american within 30 seconds of entering my express service code. And a technician will be here within 4 hours to fix it (yes, today). Not business hours. They will fix it within 4 hours of calling (24/7/365. Yes this costs alot but when you claim to be "mission critical" you cant be a cheapo.

To sum it up: Don't buy a consumer product and expect enterprise support for your "mission critical" application. If your job truely was mission critical, your mission would have a higher budget to get the best.
#47.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:13
Quote - (backslash said @ #47)
The poster of this article stated this problem incorrectly. Dell does not offer x64 support for its consumer lines. I have a Dell Precision Workstation 670 and Dell still fully supports XP x64, and I also looked up the more recent Precision 690 which has full Vista x64 support. This makes sense because Dell ships these systems with up to 16GB of RAM.

As for your warranty issues, next time you need a system don't be a cheapo. I have a 5 year (yes, 5 YEAR! warranty on my 670 with gold technical support. I am on the 3rd year and am only now having my first problem (failing PSU). They offer to replace it on the FIRST call and they are replacing other components "just to be safe", such as the DVD Burner and the wiring harness. Oh and also, I am connected with an english speaking american within 30 seconds of entering my express service code. And a technician will be here within 4 hours to fix it (yes, today). Not business hours. They will fix it within 4 hours of calling (24/7/365. Yes this costs alot but when you claim to be "mission critical" you cant be a cheapo.

To sum it up: Don't buy a consumer product and expect enterprise support for your "mission critical" application. If your job truely was mission critical, your mission would have a higher budget to get the best.


Wow you can tell who did, and didn't read the article.

My system is an XPS 410. The XPS 410 receives Dell XPS Support (known as the gold tier for enterprises)
I even offered to pay for a warranty extension and they refused

XPS Support is handled in America, just like your enterprise. They are typically supposed to just fix the issue, but they tried to screw me for the last 2 months since I was close to being out of warranty.

Also I recommend you try putting your wife through college for a second degree since her first college screwed her out of a proper bachelors, which means also buying a new PC for her as well. Then we'll see just how far your paycheck goes.

Add onto that Dell has caved and have stated that they will re-instate the x64 support by the end of the business day.
So why would you state that they have no consumer support for x64? It's legally required and I made such a solid case that they were forced to re-instate it.

So tell me where at all I was wrong?
#47.2 backslash on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:54
The parts for my repair just arrived. Less than 2 hours after getting off the phone with Dell. Apparently Dell keeps a stockpile of parts at a UPS Warehouse in Fresno. The technician will be along soon to install the parts.

I do apoligize if I came off a bit harsh. I do understand your frustration and I do not agree with the way that Dell treats its small spending customers. Do note that the 670 set my company back over $11k and we all know that money talks.

Congrats on getting Dell back to supporting x64 on all lines! That's awesome, and a win/win for all of us.

Now if only Apple would support x64 on bootcamp so my Macbook Pro would see all 4GB RAM on the Windows side.
#47.3 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 22:47
Quote - (backslash said @ #47.2)
The parts for my repair just arrived. Less than 2 hours after getting off the phone with Dell. Apparently Dell keeps a stockpile of parts at a UPS Warehouse in Fresno. The technician will be along soon to install the parts.

I do apoligize if I came off a bit harsh. I do understand your frustration and I do not agree with the way that Dell treats its small spending customers. Do note that the 670 set my company back over $11k and we all know that money talks.

Congrats on getting Dell back to supporting x64 on all lines! That's awesome, and a win/win for all of us.

Now if only Apple would support x64 on bootcamp so my Macbook Pro would see all 4GB RAM on the Windows side.


That would be a dream wouldn't it?

I told my wife that since I gave her my old laptop that our next purchase would be a top of the line MacBook Pro as soon as we can afford one.
(4 replies) #48 vetneufuse on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:19
not to sound dumb, but, all dell's hardware is standard, why can't you just download the drivers from the hardware vendors sites? They are all out there, that's how I got mine... they are usually more up to date also then dell's drivers!
#48.1 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:37
Quote - (neufuse said @ #4
not to sound dumb, but, all dell's hardware is standard, why can't you just download the drivers from the hardware vendors sites? They are all out there, that's how I got mine... they are usually more up to date also then dell's drivers!


That would be nice wouldn't it?

You're right on a few things.
I could get updated drivers for my chipset from Intel.
I could get updated network drivers from Intel

I can't however get my audio drivers since it's onboard audio, unless it's from Dell
I can't get drivers for my Dell A922 All-In-One Printer, unless it's from Dell.

It's not a fairly moot point though. Dell has caved and will be supplying the drivers once more.

Also not every Tom, Dick, & Harry knows where to go to find the drivers.
They just want to use the Dell site and download everything.

I know the point will be made that most of those will be running Vista x86, but the occasional newbie or hardcore tech guy like us runs Vista x64, and by law Dell had to support those end-users per their contract for the Vista Logo Requirements. I had an undeniable case and they had to follow-through.

They just don't expect their users to make them follow the law.
#48.2 vetneufuse on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:39
Quote - (Morpheus Phreak said @ #48.1)
Quote - (neufuse said @ #4
not to sound dumb, but, all dell's hardware is standard, why can't you just download the drivers from the hardware vendors sites? They are all out there, that's how I got mine... they are usually more up to date also then dell's drivers!


That would be nice wouldn't it?

You're right on a few things.
I could get updated drivers for my chipset from Intel.
I could get updated network drivers from Intel

I can't however get my audio drivers since it's onboard audio, unless it's from Dell
I can't get drivers for my Dell A922 All-In-One Printer, unless it's from Dell.

It's not a fairly moot point though. Dell has caved and will be supplying the drivers once more.

Also not every Tom, Dick, & Harry knows where to go to find the drivers.
They just want to use the Dell site and download everything.

I know the point will be made that most of those will be running Vista x86, but the occasional newbie or hardcore tech guy like us runs Vista x64, and by law Dell had to support those end-users per their contract for the Vista Logo Requirements. I had an undeniable case and they had to follow-through.

They just don't expect their users to make them follow the law.


Arnt all Dell's onboard audio drivers SimaTel HD? I got the drivers for it perfectly fine from their site now dell printers thats another story
#48.3 Morpheus Phreak on 24 Oct 2007 - 21:50
Quote - (neufuse said @ #48.2)
Arnt all Dell's onboard audio drivers SimaTel HD? I got the drivers for it perfectly fine from their site now dell printers thats another story


The XPS 410 and Dimension E520 (both my desktop systems) use the SigmaTel HD audio, you are correct.

Currently they do have a package up that contains both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of the driver.

What would happen after the next update though? If they thought they no longer had to support x64 then the next driver would most likely be a 32-bit only package.

This forces them to at least mantain driver packages for x64 systems.

Also for my printer I don't have the nicety of a package that contains both x64 & x86 drivers.

Both packages were very clearly separated so with it pulled I'd have no means of re-installing if I lost the system and my backups.

There's also my Media Card Reader. It requires x64 specific drivers. Right now the drivers contain both bits, but in the future if they dropped x64 support what would I do for drivers?

Edit-Also this is the 100th comment on my first newspost every for Neowin. Woohoo I'm also less than 10 views away from a full 7000 views in less than 12 hours
#48.4 keyboardwarrior on 24 Oct 2007 - 23:50
You can use 64-bit drivers meant for other systems, I grab drivers from the Precision Workstation line from time to time for my OptiPlex and it works fine

The drivers were not fully pulled - they are just not visible, they are downloadable however
(1 reply) #49 NS70 on 24 Oct 2007 - 23:59
You know Sherlock, what you should have done the second time the drive failed is flash the firmware and do any other BS troubleshooting Dell wanted to do.

After all that, even if flashing or anything else worked, you should have flat out lied to them and said, "No, none of the troubleshooting steps worked. This drive needs to be replaced." Dell would have then said, "Okay, we'll send out a replacement."

I have gotten many things replaced/serviced this way from Dell and other companies. You have to know how to work the system. One way is through lying. Try it. It works!
#49.1 Morpheus Phreak on 25 Oct 2007 - 00:09
Quote - (NS70 said @ #49)
You know Sherlock, what you should have done the second time the drive failed is flash the firmware and do any other BS troubleshooting Dell wanted to do.

After all that, even if flashing or anything else worked, you should have flat out lied to them and said, "No, none of the troubleshooting steps worked. This drive needs to be replaced." Dell would have then said, "Okay, we'll send out a replacement."

I have gotten many things replaced/serviced this way from Dell and other companies. You have to know how to work the system. One way is through lying. Try it. It works!


Congratulations, you do realize that theft and fraud are what lead to higher prices right?

I tend to be honest and think people who just lie are scum.
(1 reply) #50 starless.bible.black on 25 Oct 2007 - 00:47
it's a hot topic and you maybe right in your conclusions, but seriously, a personal soapbox as you put it yourself should not be on the frontpage. I don't get it.

#50.1 Morpheus Phreak on 25 Oct 2007 - 02:23
Quote - (starless.bible.black said @ #50)
it's a hot topic and you maybe right in your conclusions, but seriously, a personal soapbox as you put it yourself should not be on the frontpage. I don't get it.


I merely submitted the news. It was up to the staff to decide if it was front-page worthy.

They decided it was so, so I won't argue
#51 Tikitiki on 25 Oct 2007 - 02:21
I'd just like dell to know that I will here on out not be recommending them to anybody (I'm the family computer geek for starters) because of the way disgusting way they've handled this. Someone should be fired.
(2 replies) #52 toadeater on 25 Oct 2007 - 02:34
Quote -
Where do we go from here?


The third option?



I'm an XP user primarily, but I really have no desire to move to Vista, unless SP1 turns out to be nothing less than a miraculous turnaround. Microsoft still has thousands of bugs to fix in Vista, some of them rather serious, like the driver-deactivation problem. Who wants to go through repeated activations on the phone? This is getting ridiculous.
#52.1 Morpheus Phreak on 25 Oct 2007 - 02:38
Quote - (toadeater said @ #52)
Quote -
Where do we go from here?


The third option?

I'm an XP user primarily, but I really have no desire to move to Vista, unless SP1 turns out to be nothing less than a miraculous turnaround. Microsoft still has thousands of bugs to fix in Vista, some of them rather serious, like the driver-deactivation problem. Who wants to go through repeated activations on the phone? This is getting ridiculous.


Everyone throws in Linux, but it's honestly not a viable option.

Show me Halo 2 or GoW on a Linux machine and you just might have me.
#52.2 toadeater on 25 Oct 2007 - 02:59
[quote=Morpheus Phreak said,#52.1][quote=toadeater said,#52][quote]Where do we go from here?[/quote]
Everyone throws in Linux, but it's honestly not a viable option.

Show me Halo 2 or GoW on a Linux machine and you just might have me.[/quote]

I mean in the next couple of years. I think Linux development is going to accelerate significantly because so many countries are starting to support it. 64bit Linux means you could install 16GB of RAM, and run Windows (and other OSes) in a virtual machine like it was any other app. The future is all about virtualization, because we're all standardizing on the same hardware so drivers will no longer be problem.

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