Opera Software, maker of the Opera browser, says it has filed a complaint against Microsoft, accusing the company of abusing the dominance of Windows to give Internet Explorer an unfair edge in the market.
However just under a year ago Opera CEO Jon von Tetzchner was asked by SeattlePi in an interview about Windows/IE antitrust issues, he responded at the time that his company had no intentions of taking action. Here is a summary of Opera's complaint:
However just under a year ago Opera CEO Jon von Tetzchner was asked by SeattlePi in an interview about Windows/IE antitrust issues, he responded at the time that his company had no intentions of taking action. Here is a summary of Opera's complaint:
Opera requests the Commission to implement two remedies to Microsoft's abusive actions. First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers pre-installed on the desktop. Second, it asks the European Commission to require Microsoft to follow fundamental and open Web standards accepted by the Web-authoring communities. The complaint calls on Microsoft to adhere to its own public pronouncements to support these standards, instead of stifling them with its notorious "Embrace, Extend and Extinguish" strategy. Microsoft's unilateral control over standards in some markets creates a de facto standard that is more costly to support, harder to maintain, and technologically inferior and that can even expose users to security risks.
And Microsoft had this to say about the complaint:
News source: SeattlePi
"It's important to note that computer users have complete freedom of choice to use and set as default any browser they wish, including Opera, and PC manufacturers can also preinstall any browser as the default on any Windows machine they sell. Microsoft is committed to ensuring that freedom through our Windows Principles. Internet Explorer has been an integral part of the Windows operating system for over a decade and supports a wide range of web standards. We will of course cooperate with any inquiries into these issues, but we believe the inclusion of the browser into the operating system benefits consumers, and that consumers and PC manufacturers already are free to choose to use any browsers they wish."It makes you wonder if Opera are suffering after they changed their flagship product to "Freeware" where-as before you had to purchase a license for the ad-free version of Opera browser suite. Generally speaking people will use the product if it is good, Mozilla Firefox hasn't gained a significant market share for nothing!
News source: SeattlePi
Windows doesn't have aptget, and even if they did people wouldn't know how to use it.
Windows N editions were ridiculous enough (can't play media out of bo
Anyway, I would love for I.E. to be replaced with Firefox - or at least I.E. to follow web standards. It would save so much of my time wasted on writing 2 different versions of the same thing so that it'll work on I.E.
lots of possible solutions. oems could add a browser. there could be some kind of system to choose a browser when you install or when you connect to the internet for the first time, etc.
can't it be something more user friendly?
opera is not asking for windows to come without a browser, but for there to be a real choice.
A: The complaint doesn't mean that Windows must be stripped of all browsers. What matters is that there is actual choice.
Currently, Microsoft is bundling their browser with the dominant desktop operating system. This would not have been a problem in itself if Microsoft did not actively undermine open standards. Basically, Microsoft's position in the browser market allows it to lock people to their proprietary technologies.
With this two-pronged approach, Microsoft would be forced to adhere to standards, and at the same time they would not be as well equipped to repeat their actions in the future because their browser would no longer be as dominant.
Source: http://my.opera.com/haavard/blog/microsoft-antitrust
You people need to focus on the #1 main issue here, open standards. Opera really wants Microsoft to adhere to standards.
Opera does not say "unbundle now or I'll eat you". There's only option #2 if following standards is not possible. Opera is confident in knowing that Microsoft will adhere to standards rather than unbundling so #2 isn't the main problem.
If Microsoft adheres to standards, then #2 will be completely ignored.
This is bad for competition and for all other browsers!
Which is precisely why MS does it this way...
I use ie as a backup and to download drivers and stuff when I do a fresh install. If you have one browser and it breaks, then your a bit screwed really. Thats why I like having ie. IMHO it's Microsoft's Operating System they should be able to bundle what the hell they want with it. Opera want in so bad.. make your own OS then.
lots of possible solutions here. oems could add a browser. there could be some kind of system to choose a browser when you install or when you connect to the internet for the first time, etc.
not when they abuse their market position to stifle competition. ever heard about antitrust laws?
Netscape 9 is the first good version they've released in ages, but then it's basically just Firefox so...
lots of possible solutions here. oems could add a browser. there could be some kind of system to choose a browser when you install or when you connect to the internet for the first time, etc.
not when they abuse their market position to stifle competition. ever heard about antitrust laws?
You really are a parrot, aren't you? You've said the same exact thing in two comments on THIS article.
I bought my copy of Windows from the store. What OEM will install my browser?
Just enough browser to get you by until you can download Real IE, Firefox, Opera, etc, just enough to display things like HTML help files.
Basically, make Light IE to Real IE what WordPad is to Word.
Then the market for an aftermarket browser is restored, and Real IE, Firefox, and Opera all have an equal shot of being chosen.
Similar could be done with WMP-- maybe no playlist/synch/ripping support in the packin version, and then they can provide the full version to compete on its merits as a seperate download.
Just enough browser to get you by until you can download Real IE, Firefox, Opera, etc, just enough to display things like HTML help files.
Basically, make Light IE to Real IE what WordPad is to Word.
Then the market for an aftermarket browser is restored, and Real IE, Firefox, and Opera all have an equal shot of being chosen.
Similar could be done with WMP-- maybe no playlist/synch/ripping support in the packin version, and then they can provide the full version to compete on its merits as a seperate download.
Yeah, that's a good idea. Confuse the non tech savy people as much as possible. My dad gets confused enough as it is on a PC. I can guarantee that he would just get confused by what browser to choose and give up. You've got to have a full featured browser in there by default. My dad isn't all that uncommon either, there are millions of people just like him.
On a side note I have to say that Linux and OSX also have a full featured browser built in. Pretty much every OS does. So why are we just targetting Windows? Just because they have market share? That's not fair.
If we're going to do that, we may as well just make it illegal to bundle any software in with the OS. Oh yeah, then the OS would suck because it would pretty much be Windows Explorer or Finder and nothing else. That's a big part of what an OS is: a collection of apps and suites that enable you to get your work done. Why cripple one of them just because they have market share?
Yet people figure out "WordPad is not sufficient to work with, I should get Office or OpenOffice or ..."
Yet people figure out "WordPad is not sufficient to work with, I should get Office or OpenOffice or ..."
First that's a really bad analogy (wordpad is not even meant to compete with products like OpenOffice) and second, yes there are plenty of people who use Wordpad for their word processing because that's all their computer came with. However most computers bought in stores come with Microsoft Works or something of that nature. The people who figure out that Wordpad isn't good enough are the same people who download Firefox or Opera. Most people don't.
There's a chicken-egg thing there:
OEMs pack in aftermarket wordprocessors and office suites because it's known that the pack-in ones are insufficient. If it was sufficient for most users, they probably wouldn't bother.
When they put in a full-featured app, like IE, there's no need to pack in a substitute.
when people keep repeating the same fallacies over and over without bothering to read the existing comments, why should i have to rewrite the comment when responding?
the store can include a browser. or a browser can be downloaded the first time you connect to the internet. or you could get it from any magazine cd/dvd. or... lots of possibilities here. oem was just an example.
can't make money?
opera is a profitable company. it's MAKING money.
opera's revenue increased by more than 50% in the last quarter.
opera has lots of cash in the bank.
also, this is not a litigation. it is not a lawsuit. it is a request for the eu to look at microsoft's practices.
can't make money?
opera is a profitable company. it's MAKING money.
opera's revenue increased by more than 50% in the last quarter.
opera has lots of cash in the bank.
also, this is not a litigation. it is not a lawsuit. it is a request for the eu to look at microsoft's practices.
Their profits have only increased because of licensing for embedded browsers like the Wii. What has that got to do with Windows? Or are they trying to be more like Microsoft and take over all the browser markets?
wrong.
opera's DESKTOP revenue increased by more than 100% in the last quarter.
Maybe MS should sue them because I don't have the choice to install IE on my Wii! !!!Rabble Rabble Anti-Trust Rabble Rabble!!!
how many times are clueless newbies going to repeat this fallacy? the comparison is completely invalid. wii is not a dominant player which prevents others from competing in a different market, and neither is opera. you don't need wii to browse the web.
Why not go after Apple, because of them bundling Safari? Howver, with Safari you can get rid of it.
lots of possible solutions. oems could add a browser. there could be some kind of system to choose a browser when you install or when you connect to the internet for the first time, etc.
except this is not so much about bundling as it is about abusing one's position in one market (desktop) to stifle innovation in another one (browsers).
At this point, ANY OS needs to come with a browser. Since IE7 > Firefox > IE6, I really don't care until someone leapfrogs IE7. And when they do, I'll use IE7 to download THAT browser.
is irrelevant.
first of all, apple isn't in a dominant position to abuse it to prevent other browsers from competing with safari. apple's desktop market share is FAR to low.
secondly, safari is actually standards compliant.
but windows should perhaps not come with msie (especially when it isn't standards compliant) since it prevents competition, which is illegal.
Opera doesn't care about the standards portion. They're only using that to disguise the antitrust whine.
Opera doesn't care about the standards portion. They're only using that to disguise the antitrust whine.
If IE followed standards, it would make things much easier for Opera and friends.
To be a viable browser, you have to be reasonably compatible (nobody's going to write seperate stylesheets for Opera and such).
With IE non-compliant, the world is full of pages packed with CSS hacks to work right in IE. Opera has to be built to handle those, not according to a clearly explained standard, but according to an undocumented binary-only program's actions.
actually, they do. from the q&a:
"Q: Opera doesn't really care about open standards. This is just a cheap way to gain publicity!
A: While this has certainly given Opera Software quite a bit of publicity, one must understand that open standards are absolutely central to Opera Software. Opera has spent a lot of money on promoting open standards through the years, because open standards is what allows relatively smaller players like us to compete in the market.
One could say that the fight for open standards is a key component to Opera Software's business model."
actually, they do. from the q&a:
"Q: Opera doesn't really care about open standards. This is just a cheap way to gain publicity!
A: While this has certainly given Opera Software quite a bit of publicity, one must understand that open standards are absolutely central to Opera Software. Opera has spent a lot of money on promoting open standards through the years, because open standards is what allows relatively smaller players like us to compete in the market.
One could say that the fight for open standards is a key component to Opera Software's business model."
Yes, we all know the plaintiff in a situation is the best place to get unbiased information.
it doesn't have to be unbiased. all you need to do is to understand that open standards benefit opera, and they also happen to benefit the market as well.
opera does care about standards because that's what allows them to compete.
Besides, it's not like Opera can perfectly replace IE. There are still those websites written for IE only.
That said, even if MS removed it, Opera would probably turn around and sue them again because Windows users cannot access the Opera website (duhhhh).
that's part of the point of this whole thing. opera are saying IE is the main browser on the web because of its integration, and due to its bad 'standards' support its making problems for opera/mozilla/whoever that are 'standards' compliant. i can't see opera caring if MS say they'll fix the 'standards' support as it'll make a better browsing expierence for everyone as well as people coding up sites. a better / more complete 'standard' would help too :p
except this is not so much about monopoly as it is about abusing one's position in one market (desktop) to stifle innovation in another one (browsers).
except this is not so much about monopoly as it is about abusing one's position in one market (desktop) to stifle innovation in another one (browsers).
Squawk! I said this before! Squawk!
except this is not so much about monopoly as it is about abusing one's position in one market (desktop) to stifle innovation in another one (browsers).
</sarcasm> ?????
why?
I think the easiest way to solve this (forgetting about the web standards since that's an obvious given that needs fixing), Microsoft should just include a dialog box when you first run IE that mentions a few other browsers and has a link to their main site. It should be shown the first time IE is run only, after that it should be accessible from the help menu.
lots of possible solutions. oems could add a browser. there could be some kind of system to choose a browser when you install or when you connect to the internet for the first time, etc.
lots of possible solutions. oems could add a browser. there could be some kind of system to choose a browser when you install or when you connect to the internet for the first time, etc.
Squawk! Squawk! Polly want a browser!
lots of possible solutions. oems could add a browser. there could be some kind of system to choose a browser when you install or when you connect to the internet for the first time, etc.
On-topic:
Yes, there are alternatives, maybe stores can offer free CD's with a mix of browsers on them or something like that. Point is, I don't see how creating a browser and packing it in with a OS that YOU created is abusing one's power. I run windows but I don't use IE at all unless I want to update my computer. I use firefox on my PC and Opera on my windows mobile PPC. I don't think M$ is the best company in the world but this is getting outta hand. I wish I could sue the American government for stealing over 30% of my yearly income...lol
that was an example.
windows magically installs itself on all best buy computers?
how is it getting out of hand when a company well known for its anti-competitive practices is taken to task for its actions?
the comparison is invalid. this isn't even a lawsuit, but an antitrust complaint.
that was an example.
windows magically installs itself on all best buy computers?
how is it getting out of hand when a company well known for its anti-competitive practices is taken to task for its actions?
the comparison is invalid. this isn't even a lawsuit, but an antitrust complaint.
no, the purpose of business is to make money. competition makes for a healthy market, and the market dynamics can grow the market and make everyone more money than if they were alone.
depends on whether antitrust laws apply or not.
that could possibly be the case. again, this is subject to antitrust laws.
Yes, there are alternatives, maybe stores can offer free CD's with a mix of browsers on them or something like that. Point is, I don't see how creating a browser and packing it in with a OS that YOU created is abusing one's power. I run windows but I don't use IE at all unless I want to update my computer. I use firefox on my PC and Opera on my windows mobile PPC. I don't think M$ is the best company in the world but this is getting outta hand. I wish I could sue the American government for stealing over 30% of my yearly income...lol
One problem is that a good amount of people who use IE use it simply because "it works for me so why bother with something else?" I've even seen people argue that IE is the best browser even after I point out it's lack of proper CSS 2.1 support, it's proprietary CSS, and more.
Most people who use WMP have probably heard of WinAmp from a friend or two, some may have even heard of other music players. When was the last time WinAmp complained? A media player war is pretty much exactly the same as a browser war, only difference is web language support would be comparable to file format support. If two media players both support the same files you go for the one you like more. If IE adds support for all current web standards then what would make Opera stand out as a more preferable browser?
Really, I think IE should fully support all current web standards, as should every other browser, and it should include a list of 3-4 alternative browsers that pops up when first run. "Microsft Internet Explorer is an internet browser, however it is not the only internet browser. Several third-party companies have made other equally reliable and remarkable internet browsers. Among these are Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc, etc, etc."
That would probably solve this entire issue.
Yes, there are alternatives, maybe stores can offer free CD's with a mix of browsers on them or something like that. Point is, I don't see how creating a browser and packing it in with a OS that YOU created is abusing one's power. I run windows but I don't use IE at all unless I want to update my computer. I use firefox on my PC and Opera on my windows mobile PPC. I don't think M$ is the best company in the world but this is getting outta hand. I wish I could sue the American government for stealing over 30% of my yearly income...lol
One problem is that a good amount of people who use IE use it simply because "it works for me so why bother with something else?" I've even seen people argue that IE is the best browser even after I point out it's lack of proper CSS 2.1 support, it's proprietary CSS, and more.
Most people who use WMP have probably heard of WinAmp from a friend or two, some may have even heard of other music players. When was the last time WinAmp complained? A media player war is pretty much exactly the same as a browser war, only difference is web language support would be comparable to file format support. If two media players both support the same files you go for the one you like more. If IE adds support for all current web standards then what would make Opera stand out as a more preferable browser?
Really, I think IE should fully support all current web standards, as should every other browser, and it should include a list of 3-4 alternative browsers that pops up when first run. "Microsft Internet Explorer is an internet browser, however it is not the only internet browser. Several third-party companies have made other equally reliable and remarkable internet browsers. Among these are Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc, etc, etc."
That would probably solve this entire issue.
you don't think violating antitrust laws should have consequences? have you actually READ opera's arguments, or are you just making assumptions from ignorance?
actually, the u.s. has antitrust laws as well. and GUESS WHAT, microsoft was convicted there as well!
you don't think violating antitrust laws should have consequences? have you actually READ opera's arguments, or are you just making assumptions from ignorance?
actually, the u.s. has antitrust laws as well. and GUESS WHAT, microsoft was convicted there as well!
Antitrust is not a criminal offense, it's civil. You don't get convicted in a lawsuit.
you don't think violating antitrust laws should have consequences? have you actually READ opera's arguments, or are you just making assumptions from ignorance?
actually, the u.s. has antitrust laws as well. and GUESS WHAT, microsoft was convicted there as well!
Where in the anti-trust laws does it state the MS can't bundle IE with Windows?
Don't come at me with the whole preinstalled thing either, most tech savy people, first thing they do is fire up IE to go dopwnload the saftware they actually want to use, as for the non tech savy, IE works just fine for them and for the most part aren't interested in switching anything. I've tried but the "average" Windows user could care less about anything not made by MS. Maybe later on they get curious but for the most part IE is all they want.