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Last edited by shockz on 26 Jan 2008 - 00:17

.. when bluray/hddvd hybrid players are under $200, thats when it'll end. It just won't matter anymore..

They could just include both types of discs in a box. It wouldn't add much to the cost, but these greedy megacorporations will kill a baby for a $.01, so losing $.25 on each release is out of the question for them. The format wars are as artificial as DRM. It's not about cost, it's about locking consumers in to a standard so they have no choice but to buy one brand of junk.

It isn't just the fabrication of the media, but also the licensing of the format that costs the producers money.

Is that a fact? Where are your figures detailing how much this would add to the cost?

Pig-headed? They're the ones going for cheaper hardware and manufacturing costs. Blu-ray is pushing the more expensive format, pushing out players that don't support all the features, and have even alluded to keeping prices at a premium long after manufacturing costs come down.

Call HD DVD pig-headed if you'd like, but I'd like them to be so and keep trying to win this war rather than to let Blu-ray take over.

why do hd-dvd supporters keep saying blu-ray is more expensive. when they come out as new releases both hd-dvd and blu-ray are the same cost, so how do you say it's a more expensive format.

Uh, hardware?

What he is getting at is the cost to a company to produce BD compared to HDDVD is more expensive... Yes the Discs are the same price at a raetail level but HDDVD producers can spit out more discs per month than a BD factory.. ALthough its slightly improving thats where the "cost" of BD is used...

IMO the 2nd thing that sony is using to push their format is the fact the company that owns the format owns the movies as well... meaning u like a sony movie... u will have to watch it on a sony player... Even then i have read that at one stage Sony produced and owned discs wont even play on their own players....

Correct me if im wrong on any of this (i may be) but thats how i view things

HDDVD will not die untill the fat lady sings... As long as companies support it and people buy them they will live on...

Yes i am a hddvd user...

Yeah, you might get a HD-DVD player for $99 and a Blu-ray one for $199. But over time, I think that argument (which belong to among the most well used) is exaggerated. I think even moreso if the industry (which is far from just Sony) starts ramping up their volumes now that the victory of Blu-ray looks more certain, something that has also been reflected in Blu-ray sales recently.

Also, on the topic of recordables, while BD-R discs are still quite expensive, they're actually showing a brighter future there, as HD-DVD-R's often cost almost as much, so the cost per GB is actually even worse on their recordables.

2) Wont newer players coming out be able to just update their firmware to play any newer profiles/features. All i need is the movie i dont care about extra features in upcoming profiles.

5) No one want a PS3

6) Thats good if your computer is hooked up to your TV until set top box HD video download services become the norm.

I cannot take any arguments you may have made seriously after I read #5.
You have every right to believe the PS3 is crappy all you want, but the games are finally being released (and have been for months now) more or less proving otherwise.
Sure, it may not be your cup of tea, but to say it is "crappy" purely shows a bias that makes every other point you have moot.

@ #2) "Blu-ray is an incomplete format. Although they have studio support, their hardware support is horrible. Who would buy a piece of hardware which cannot use all the fetures avaialble to the format?"

With firmware updates thru ethernet which some models have (even the ps3 $399 model) you can get more support and features. So your poiint #2 s invalid sorry.

OK eth3l, you have exactly 100 days to come up with a gaming system using PCBs and chips you will manufacturer in a professional looking case to be mass produced yeh ? If you don't manage it, we will not hate you, just continue to class you as the biggest twat on these forums that continues to spew a mess from your mouth, or, backside, I am not able to tell what one with the crap you write.

how is that not still stiffing anyone who's already paid $400 to over a thousand $ for a current gen player that does not have ethernet? the manufacturers knew they were planning this way back then, and have already shown total disreguard for their customers stating

"the early adopters knew what they were getting into"

NO THEY DIDN'T!

his point 2 stands.

Because if you don't care and just buy an upscaling DVD player why bother with HD-DVD or Blu-ray player anyway general consumers doesn't two F's about HDi and whatnot else.

games are "finally" being released, that's my point.

Additionally, the fact that Sony is pushing it as the preeminent Blu-ray player says alot about the confidence Sony has int eh device as a gaming rig. In comparison, MS does not stress sales of its HD addons indicating that it is pushing the 360 as a gaming rig first and a media hub second

Actually, you are incorrect. pre-2.0 Profile BD players *DO NOT* have an ethernet connection and cannot be updated via firmware.

1.0 is the launch profile, and secondary audio and video decoders are optional, as is local storage and network connectivity. The majority of standalone players fit into this category.
1.1 is the newer profile, and to take advantage of these discs, players need a secondary audio and video decoder to handle picture-in-picture, as well as at least 256MB of local storage for content.

2.0 is the profile of the future, requiring the two secondary decoders, 1GB of local storage for updates and content, and an Internet connection.

Source

Sorry dude, only the PS3 can update over the net. HD DVD players can update over the net, but not profile 1 players. the later profiles have different hardware requirements so firmware update or not, you cant add the extra hardware.

I dont know what these means.

What about consumers that don't want a PS3 but just want a DVD player? $399 is expensive.

Well its just your saying the PS3 is a load of crap, "5) Sony is using BD to sell PS3s. There is no argument here, it is a vehicle to sell a crappy gaming rig that no one wants anyway.", I've never used a PS3 but I would bet everything I have that you couldn't make something nearly half as good as it, just because you don't like Blu-Ray doesn't mean you need to take a poke at the PS3, only do that with apple and mac and all that bull

None of your points matter when there will be so little content released for the format after June 2008.
They'll have something like 20% of the movie industry backing them, with Paramount rumored to be looking to jump the sinking ship soon enough.

People could just as well be buying a highly advanced brick, at least if they are new to the HD movie business and not former owners of HD-DVD's and upgrading. :-p

It doesn't matter how cheap it is, it doesn't matter how "complete" the HD-DVD format is, and it sure as hell doesn't matter if they're grabbing market share by selling lots of PS3's. They're still grabbing market share at a faster pace than HD-DVD. Now that matters. And it will have more movies sold for the format. Now that matters. Most PS3 owners also *know* they're getting a Blu-ray player with it. It's part of the whole idea: you get both a HD player and a game console in one for a pretty good price. And it doesn't matter if you think that deal isn't good; the large masses APPARENTLY do, because HD-DVD is on life support.

But why do I even care... People like you will claim HD-DVD is alive and kicking in 2010.

Last edited by Jugalator on 26 Jan 2008 - 15:43

I'd personally either play from my PC (Blu-ray PC players are cheaper), or use it in a HTPC. Then I'd get at least a Pioneer BDC-202 for $215 here. A 5x Blu-ray player too, at that.

So now it's like 20%? Ha ha ha.. I swear to god the BDA FUD machinery has really done a great job.. Actually they don't have to do anything when the more you read forums the more it will be like 5% content.


Listen, please don't spewout the completely incorrect information. Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks with numerous smallers studios in the Sta tes and abroad (like Weinstein, First Look and quite a few others) account for almost 40% of content still being available exclusively on HD DVD. That means that YOU WILL NOT be able to access that content on Blu-Ray as it seems right now. This will most likely not change regardless of you wishing it to be so.

A fact is that if Toshiba manages to flood the market with cheap players this year by Q3/Q4 and introduce the triple layer twin disc along with TL51gb discs, you may very well see some other Blu-Ray studios go neutral.

Warner accounts for about 20% of content. That's it. That means that HD DVD will lose effectively about 20% of it's content come Q3 2008. Not a SUPER huge deal considering that we have like 500 HD titles alltogether to begin with on a market that's less then 2%. Come 50-60% of market then content will really matter, but not now at less then 2%.

The fact that Blu-Ray is in a hurry to proclaim this war over definitely speaks volumes about their fear or prolonging this war as they will be unable to cover the payoffs and marketing costs for much longer. You can see this by Sony ditching all SKUs but 40gb one that is cheaper for them to produce as it is toned down version of the PS3 console that was initially introduced.

Buckle up, 2008 will be a great ride for consumers as the prices keep going down, plenty of movies to be watched and most of the greatest hits in 2008 will be.. yep you guessed it, HD DVD EXCLUSIVE! Except for Batman, I'll bet you'll be buying more HD DVD day/date movies this year then Blu-Ray, that is unless you foolishly refused to buy the dirt cheap HD DVD players as they are now.

I agree or design a DVD format in which you can combine both technologies.

you mean a 3rd format?

I'll stick with dvd for a fews yet methinks

What I mean is if Blu-ray is the winner, then develop a format of Blu-ray that can also be playable on HD-DVD players.

That's what HD DVD IS and trying to do.. combos or twin discs allow exactly that. Blu-Ray is the format that forces you to rebuy EVERYTHING and simply DITCH completely DVD which is not going to happen for 90% of consumers. You can't just dump 10 years of DVD and force everyone to buy completely new. That's crazy, that's why BDA is actually forcing everything that way.

Netflix has confirmed that studios are limiting the number of HD discs they can buy so they force people to buy discs instead of renting them. Shows you how DISGUSTING this whole agenda is.

HD DVD IS DVD-Plus if you wish. It has the ability to replace DVD seamlessly with consumers without you even noticing. You can buy enhanced movies that carry both DVD and HD version (sure they are more expensive now, but they coming down.. hell I bought a bunch of HD DVD movies for $15 recently) without worry that the movie you buy will not play on your remaining DVD players.

What?? Nearly all the blu-ray players backwards support DVD perfectly. They are not ditching it at all.
You live in a world you have invented in your own mind, perhaps because you have wasted money on hd-dvd for the past year. The HD-DVD fans comments in this news article are widely inaccurate and made up.

To the rest of the users:
a)blu-ray players mostly support dvd, pick a product that suits you instead of buying the o0ne that does??!!
b)hd-dvd is not cheaper at the retail level and currently isn't at the wholesale level anyways! And before you say "wah Sony is paying for that", Toshiba is paying for my point c.
c)hd-dvd players are only cheaper due to Toshiba dropping their pants over the Warner incident. Naturally Blu-Ray will come to those prices over time just like hd-dvd would have, as things become more popular and technology advances things get cheaper. Everyone is pretty confident with the rumored $299 PS3 soon.
d)non upgradable players will always be able to play the main feature on blu-ray discs. But still it was the users choice to buy non upgradable players, not Blu-Ray members. LG released a multi format player that doesnt fully support hd-dvd, it's the customers problem if they buy these things.
e)combo players isn't the way forward, everyone is screaming about the cost being too high already, the quicker one format dies and we move ahead with a single one the better. Blu-Ray has almost get itself and HD over the line, it is only the hd-dvd people holding back all of the HD market now. If people would just let go of the dying hd-dvd we could all enjoy more choice and cheaper prices. It could have gone either way, it has gone Blu-Ray, live with that fact. If we cant pick a side HD will most likely just never happen.

I think you are just a bit overly enthusiastic. Nobody is talking about Blu-Ray ability to play regular DVDs. What we are talking about is hardware. 10 years of DVD players being sold are supposed to be dumped because of Blu-Ray since obviously you can't play your Blu-Ray movies on your DVD player. Unlike Blu-Ray HD DVD can actually do that. You buy 1 disc, and it contains SD DVD and HD DVD version on it so you can play it on the DVD players. That's called pro-consumer technology that allows smoother transition for everyone to HD over time. Blu-Ray forces you to buy new players to watch your Blu-Ray movies. That's forcing and at $400 a player that ain't gonna happen either.
Of course, Blu-Ray will not be able to do combo or twin discs because, well they are not backed by official DVD Forum.



It is definitely true that Blu-Ray players DVD, nobody has said otherwise. What you can't do is play your Blu-Ray movies on regular DVD player. With HD DVD you can. So why not buy a $100-$120 HD DVD player that can do everything Blu-Ray does and more and movies you actually buy on it, for the most part can be played on the remaining 3 DVD players in your house (bedroom, den, office, car).


Of course it's cheaper. Hardware wise. You get a format with fully finished specifications that plays true HD content with over 400 movies so far and more coming for around $100 these days. Blu-Ray cheapest player that supports CLOSE TO the features of any HD DVD player (of course it lacks ethernet and some video/audio decoding still) for $400-$499. Another choice is a game console for $400. Either way, it's definitely more expensive.

Some latest HD DVD combo titles in retail are also priced the same as Blu-Ray titles, but they offer an additional SD DVD version of the movie too. So yeah, that definitely shows that the manufacturing is cheaper for HD DVDs. The reason we see similar priced software is purely because studios are trying to maximize on early adopter stage, the actual replication runs are much much smaller then DVDs and in Blu-Ray's case, yes, Sony is significantly subsidizing disc replication though this would not affect prices this early. Once we get to manufacturing millions of discs that's where HD DVD technology will truly shine as Sony won't be able to subsidize that.



Wow, so what you did here is you actually posted your opinion as some kind of fact and are preaching that everyone should wait for years in order for Blu-Ray to reach HD DVD prices, not to mention functionality. The only real question here that your comment poses is WHY? Why should we wait, when we get all that now with HD DVD for $100. The reason for the price drops is completely irrelevant.

What you are doing is you are just showing your fanboyism with complete ignorance. So Toshiba is a loser, and Sony who lost billions on PS3, introduced first the fully featured console and now a year after the launch they dropped price like 100% and cut out significant parts of the console in order to just compete. You are being completely silly.

Btw, I find it very hard to believe that you will see $299 PS3 anytime soon. Sony simply can't continue to drop the amount of money they are already losing on PS3. They just hit $400 in console PRODUCTION value, but they still have other costs to product and ship the console, so they are even at $400 in manufacturing losing close to $100 per console. If they went $299, they would be back to square one losing almost $200 per inferior console than what they've launched originally.



Yes, what a wonderful idea. Buy a player at $400 knowing that you won't be able to use all features of the discs coming up because why again? It doesn't matter that some people need or don't need extras, you are getting a half-assed product. Would you buy a car today without a stereo system in it, or buy a car that has no DVD navigation in it or some tech goodies over the car that has all of that, has same performance, looks just as good and costs 3 times less?

Combo players are not a good deal now because they are mostly $799 or higher. But Samsung just came out with new hybrid 5500 series for around $500. By end of this year, if hybrid players are at $400 range, they will be a much better alternative for everyone if they cost close to the price of only Blu-Ray player. If this happens, the war will be coming to an end as those players would be adopted much quicker.



LOL, said like a true Blu-Ray fanboy. So a million or so people are holding down other 2 million with PS3s from winning? LOL.. why don't we just all go and die right? I understand that you are concerned that your favorite console format might be still endangered but consumer have not even started talking. They are however talking now, they are LOVING $100 HD players, and when people buy a standalone player they are buying it for watching movies, something that this formats should primarily do. Not for gaming or console viewing. That's why you don't see PS3 in hi-fi dept at retailers, but where it rightfully belongs, the gaming dept.

I'm curious how you would react if by Q3, Fox and Disney start publishing on HD DVD. I'm sure you would still somehow see Blu-Ray winning.

[quote=Raven said,#8]The only people stating the format war isn't over is the losing side.[quote]
Well duh. The people who tout a victory aren;t going to say that the "war" is not over.

[quote]They have no choice but to 'never surrender'. Think of all the hardware sitting on shelves or in warehouses with no hope of getting sold. I'm sure they will make this claim until all the existing units are sold, then they'll 'surrender'.[/quote]
Unlike Sony, Tosh cares about its customers and will fight to the end. Dont forget the HDM market is only about 4% of the *entire* home video market.

[quote]C'mon Toshiba. Do the right thing and let go. No miracle is going to help HD-DVD. It's a done deal.[/quote]
Actually, Blu-ray will kill itself with its profiles scheme and reliance on the PS3 as the premiere Blu-ray player

Well, most reasonable people should have at least few grievances against Sony by now... they don't exactly have the cleanest track record.

IMO, PS3 is one of the few real advantages Blu-ray has over HD-DVD.

Not me. I like affordable, complete hardware. my Tosh A30 will be around a liong time after all those standalone Profile 1.2 players will be.

Agreed, but they also need to get standalones in the homes. The next sales report will be important - not make or break,but important. Come xmas 2008 we will be int he same position we are today

You can't just stir two established technologies from rivalling factions together and have a big love-in. Unimagineable millions of dollars have gone into R&D on these formats. You're not going to see Toshiba and the HD-DVD camp raising the white flag anytime soon. This is going to be a catastrophic fall for them, and probably should be a lesson for all of the companies involved- not just for those on the losing end.

Unfortunatley titles and studio support will not win this battle alone. Blu-ray is incomplete and overpriced - two MAJOR factors inhibiting mass acceptance.

It may or may not be "incomplete and overpriced" but it is still selling better than HD-DVD. That demonstrates that being cheaper and feature complete are not the most important factors. If Blu-ray can do well when it is so expensive and before Profile 2.0 players are available then once it comes down in price it's likely to gain an even bigger lead.

It's disappointing to see an article like this. Both groups were arrogant / greedy by trying to go it alone but now Blu-ray is winning the HD-DVD group should cut their losses and try to cooperate with the BDA - that would be better for the consumer. Instead we have statements like this suggesting they'll keep going to the bitter end.

Why, as a consumer, would I want to have to buy movies in two different formats (with different boxes) when I could select one and have a consistent collection? I'd rather the major studios stopped acting like kids. This shouldn't be about what the consumer picks - this should be about the studios collectively picking one format. Instead we have money thrown about everywhere (between the studios... consumers end up paying more) and a long drawn out war.

Did you hate the white DVD boxes also? And the silver ones? And the wide ones?

At least BD and HD-DVD chose the same size box.

Or... It could be that the week those numbers are from are right after the Christmas sale prices ended and right before Toshiba nocked down the MSRP. It was also the week that rumors were rife on the internet about Paramount and Universal jumping ship, which proved to be unfounded. No one is going to buy a player for $299 that they could have gotten for $199 a week before.

I'd be interested to see what the figures were for the next few weeks after when the players were all discounted and it was determined the whole Paramount Universal thing was just a rumor. I mean $149 for a good upscaling DVD player that also happens to play HD-DVD discs is a very attractive deal.

All that shows is that the battle was still very close and blu-ray was not the 'clear consumer choice' and that the week after, the FUD was taking effect.

It definately takes into account Toshiba price slashes for 2 weeks.

The Toshiba sales did go up sharply to ALMOST compete with Blu-Ray because of those price cuts before falling so drastically. Also remember this does not even include PS3's at all, the largest portion of the entire HD market. This is not getting beat, this is a white wash. The numbers show Blu-Ray even without the PS3 is by far the consumers choice, with the PS3 it shows HD-DVD were dead well before Warner jumped.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/23/us_hd_player_sales/
That covers the first 2 weeks of Jan.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/mis...ddata012008.jpg
covers the 3rd week of Jan. How much more data do you need that HD-DVD is not in the race and is why Warner went exclusive.

Last edited by bits on 27 Jan 2008 - 01:39

This was far more important.

There was a war about that? Jeez... I used to watch both when I was a child. Now the vehicle Voltron vs. the lion Voltron is a different story... Because lions rock, and lions that can merge to form a giant robot is even cooler. Cars, on the other hand, are rather commonplace, and to say they can transform... Well, that's simply a Voltron adaptation of Transformers.