A Briton accused of hacking into top-secret military computers has vowed to fight extradition to stand trial in the US after losing a court appeal. Glasgow-born Gary McKinnon could face life in jail if convicted of accessing 97 US military and Nasa computers. He has admitted breaking into the computers from his London home but said he was seeking information on UFOs.Mr McKinnon says he will take his case to the European Court of Human Rights after losing the Law Lords appeal. Mr McKinnon, 42, first lost his case at the High Court in 2006 before taking it to the highest court in the UK, the House of Lords. He was arrested in 2002 but never charged in the UK. The US government claims he committed a malicious crime - the biggest military computer hack ever.
selfish... heartless...
selfish... heartless...
....wow. And all because I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone for knowingly breaks the law to satisfy a stupid hobby/obsession and in the process, snubbed his nose at one of the worlds most powerful militaries. Next time I spend my Saturday at a Habitat for Humanity project site I'll remember your words.
selfish... heartless...
Yes, people are selfish and heartless for expecting that someone be held responsible for their actions. Besides, I think his extradition fight has already failed.
On a more serious note, he has committed a crime and he SHOULD be punished. But life term sounds too harsh.
ill bet it's just a bunch of crap behind it... something about 'sending people a message' sorta thing more than anything else.... or they just upset that someone hacked into there stuff and want to make an example of him etc etc.
all in all i say give him some minor punishment but nothing extreme cause of he's put in prison with other serious crimes that people commited like murder etc etc that's just wrong cause putting a computer hacker type guy in with hardened criminal's is just wrong as he dont have a chance in there
On a more serious note, he has committed a crime and he SHOULD be punished. But life term sounds too harsh.
They can't let him go. It has nothing to do with what he was going after, its the precedence it would set. The whole thing is really quite sad, but he brought it upon himself however innocent the crime may be.
thornz0: He altered and deleted files on one of the servers at a US Coast Guard base shortly after 9/11 which caused major problems with those systems and basically took them down with those "innocent" alterations & deletions.
I have ZERO sympathy for such people. Hackers delude themselves by thinking that their "education time" & exploits are "harmless". Personally, I'd like the laws concerning hacking & cracking be equated to the level of crime & punishment as a case of "Aggrivated Breaking & Entering", since most are done in a forcefull manner.
thornz0: He altered and deleted files on one of the servers at a US Coast Guard base shortly after 9/11 which caused major problems with those systems and basically took them down with those "innocent" alterations & deletions.
I have ZERO sympathy for such people. Hackers delude themselves by thinking that their "education time" & exploits are "harmless". Personally, I'd like the laws concerning hacking & cracking be equated to the level of crime & punishment as a case of "Aggrivated Breaking & Entering", since most are done in a forcefull manner.
I agree with Scott but for one thing, if he did alter files and/or delete files then he IS NOT A HACKER hes a cracker, A hacker does not alter files, the pull is the ability to test and bypass any security however lax it may be, apparantly it is claimed that he broke in and left their systems open to attack....Hmm his defence is there was no passwords or firewalls on the boxes sitting on a gateway to the internet. Heh I dont believe either the US version or Mckinnons tbh.
If it wasnt for hackers testing systems you wouldnt have such robust Firewall solutions, antivirus and other intrusion prevention measures, who do you think developed and beta tests such things. (Yes thats right us wee guys called whitehat hackers)
I personally hope he gets extradited because quite frankly listening to his reasoning and his own self deluded justifications for his actions are laughable, if you cant do the crime dont do the fooking crime! Its muppets like Gary "im a gimp" Mckinnon that gives true IT professionals (and whitehats) a hard time.
Bush's Bush
Bush's Bush
Fail
RTFA, moron.
What's needed, I think, is to re-brand the term "torture" - it has so many negative connotations. Perhaps we could go for "knowledge retrieval" or even "civil protection"; much less negative and it should hopefully stop some of the whiners... pesky liberals.
What really kills me is that he admitted to doing this! The reasoning is pretty much irrelevant, he could have been hunting for UFO's, porn, a recipe, doesn't matter.
What really kills me is that he admitted to doing this! The reasoning is pretty much irrelevant, he could have been hunting for UFO's, porn, a recipe, doesn't matter.
Knowing the useless American courts he will get something he doesn't deserve, in the UK he would be given a 6 month suspended sentence and then end off, none of these Americans trying to export him to their crazy prisons.
What a stunning rebuttal; you've really put me in my place. However will I ever sleep tonight?
6 month suspended sentence? Hot diggity damn, now there's a punishment fitting the crime if there ever was one... Gotta love the rough, tough, pansy British court system. Who's running the courts over there, Monty Python and his Flying Circus!? I certainly hope I never break a law over there, I'd be terrified at what I'd be facing.
What's needed, I think, is to re-brand the term "torture" - it has so many negative connotations. Perhaps we could go for "knowledge retrieval" or even "civil protection"; much less negative and it should hopefully stop some of the whiners... pesky liberals.
So if your neighbor doesn't lock their door does that mean it's ok to just walk in and make yourself at home?
What's needed, I think, is to re-brand the term "torture" - it has so many negative connotations. Perhaps we could go for "knowledge retrieval" or even "civil protection"; much less negative and it should hopefully stop some of the whiners... pesky liberals.
So if your neighbor doesn't lock their door does that mean it's ok to just walk in and make yourself at home?
AMEN, GreyWolfSC!
If the US Government would simply take the time to equate "cyber" crimes with physical ones there would be a lot fewer hackers & crackers running around. Making the act of hacking and/or cracking into a computer system or network similar to a charge of "Aggrivated Breaking & Entering" would put the kybosh on this kind of activity pretty quickly.
But does he deserve life in prison for what he did? He was looking for UFO info!
But does he deserve life in prison for what he did? He was looking for UFO info!
So you believe that the end justifies the means?
In the article, if any of you actually bothered to read it, it says that the grounds for the appeal was that there was such a disparity between the plea bargain and his sentence if convicted by a trial. If he pleads guilty, which basically everyone in here thinks he is, his jail time would be (according to the article) no more than 4 years.
Did any of you sheep even bother to think that perhaps the reason the US govt is telling him that they will be seeking a prison term of 60 years if they go to trial to try and entice him to take a plea bargain (which is VERY VERY common in the United States)?
I would LOVE it, if one of you so who are saying that his crime does not matter because there was lax security has your house broken into because you were resting on your laurels and only have a standard bolt on your door. I would LOVE to hear your opinions on that situation. I am sure that every one of you would defending the criminal who robbed YOU because YOU didnt have enough locks on your doors.
and you idiots call us sheep.....
Not quite, it would be more like leaving something labeled 'top secret' in your house, in full view from a window, and then not having a lock on the door at all, since the computers he logged onto had no passwords.
I've read the article and nowhere do I see "4 years" mentioned, and they're not wanting him to plead guilty to 'hacking' it, which "everyone in here thinks he is" guilty of, he's already done that. They want him to plead guilty to sabotage, and since he insists he did no damage whatsoever why would he plead guilty?
The fact that high-up US officials have said:
I'd say even if he did plead guilty they're not going to give him a fair trial. It's not about hatred of America, they just want to give an incredibly idiotic sentence and if he gets extradited there he doesn't stand a chance.
Last edited by James123 on 30 Jul 2008 - 21:29
And the judge has the option to reject the plea, even if agreed by the prosecution. So he could go over there, plead guilty to a 4yr term and actually end up in jail for 60yrs. I don't know about you but I'd sure as heck do all I can to prevent that possibility. Not only that but this case has been serious talked up and people are doing all they can to see him get a large sentence. This guy's a moron and got lucky, thanks mostly to incompetent security.
Actually a better analogy would be having a do not enter sign on your front door and the leaving it unlocked. And i still ask you, does that make it ok to come into the house?
My mistake, i meant to link to this article
According to the CNet article the basis of his appeal was the disparity in the the prison terms, which is common practice in the US.
All that sentence proves is that you don't know about the US judicial system. If he were to plead guilty and enter into a plea bargain, there would be no mythical unfair trial by the big bad united states.
Fact of the matter is, this guy broke the law and should have to pay. A great question would be if an American hacked into these files would any of you wanna-be anti-american zealots be calling the guy a hero and basically saying that it was the US governments fault that HE was the one that decided to break the law, knowing full well of the consequences.
To my knowledge, judges will only throw out a plea bargain if there is a gross miscarriage of justice, which in this case I don't even think a case can be made.
If by some reason a judge were to throw out the plea bargain (again the chances of that happening are so small that there is no reason to even be talking about it) he would have a great case on appeal, and would have the decision overturned.
I just re-red the article, and i guess you missed this part:
From that quote it sounds like the US is willing to allow him to plead guilty of a much lesser sentence, be eligible for parole and the extra charges would be dropped, and oh yes, being returned to the UK to do his time...big bad Americans
Actually a better analogy would be having a do not enter sign on your front door and the leaving it unlocked. And i still ask you, does that make it ok to come into the house?
My mistake, i meant to link to this article
According to the CNet article the basis of his appeal was the disparity in the the prison terms, which is common practice in the US.
All that sentence proves is that you don't know about the US judicial system. If he were to plead guilty and enter into a plea bargain, there would be no mythical unfair trial by the big bad united states.
Fact of the matter is, this guy broke the law and should have to pay. A great question would be if an American hacked into these files would any of you wanna-be anti-american zealots be calling the guy a hero and basically saying that it was the US governments fault that HE was the one that decided to break the law, knowing full well of the consequences.
Of course they wouldn't - Villifying the US when it goes after criminals that have perpetrated acts against the US Government or US citizens from another country is in fashion. Most of the people who support this utter moron are responding because they've probably done something similar to this in their lifetime, or are people who are trying to build-up their "skillz" in order to perpetrate similar acts and don't want their pretty hands slapped by cold steel if THEY get caught.
Absolutely ridiculous what pansies our government has become !!!!
Second he deserves everything he gets. You know full well that if you hack into a government computer you could get life in prison.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any sources to back up your opinion or is that just conjecture?
I am not trying to be harsh, I actually have been looking for where it says EXACTLY what kind of security these government computers used.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any sources to back up your opinion or is that just conjecture?
I am not trying to be harsh, I actually have been looking for where it says EXACTLY what kind of security these government computers used.
I was merely putting the word "lax" in context.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any sources to back up your opinion or is that just conjecture?
I am not trying to be harsh, I actually have been looking for where it says EXACTLY what kind of security these government computers used.
I was merely putting the word "lax" in context.
so you are saying what you think the word lax means, and not what it actually means in the context of the actual security measures that were in place to protect the computers.
No I'm not kidding.
No I'm not kidding.
again, all i am asking for is alittle evidence
If you hack into US military computers, what do you expect to happen? Just because McKinnon is a kook does not mean he can avoid the consequences of his actions. And the Americans are entitled to pass laws saying that people who refuse to confess to crimes and plead guilty deserve much longer prison sentences. English legal history is full of arbitrary, unjust sentences because prosecutors could not offer plea bargains to fit the levity of the crime.
Why does it matter that the computers were not protected? If someone gets stabbed is it their fault for not wearing a stab-proof vest? Sure, it shows that the computers could not have been that important. But the criminal law says you should not be hacking into any computers at all, no matter how insignificant.
Finally, McKinnon says he was looking for evidence of UFOs. Since nuts like McKinnon probably regard most modern military aircraft as evidence of UFOs, I can't imagine this is something the US wants to encourage. It is not unreasonable for the US government to take a robust approach.
Last edited by Crazy Eddy on 30 Jul 2008 - 23:01
Lock the smart-ass up, I say.
Further, there are Irish terrorists being harboured in the USA who cannot be extradited to the UK, because certain American congressmen are terrorist sympathisers.
Somehow this means that obviously guilty people like McKinnon deserve an easy ride.
It is worth mentioning that when the the Nat West Three were extradited to the USA under the same treaty, facing lengthy sentences for white collar crimes, they ended up agreeing to the plea bargain and only getting 37 months in prison. Much as I hope that McKinnon is too stupid to go for a similar deal I am guessing sanity will prevail.
Last edited by Crazy Eddy on 31 Jul 2008 - 00:16
Lock the smart-ass up, I say.
Why does BUSH inspire so many reponses? fraud to cause war is illegal, simple as. Maybe they should have better intelligence, it doesn't make what he did any any less illegal, and they did prove it was false intelligence.
Lock the fraudster-ass up, I say
Recently the USA declared that is has the right to kidnap people off our very streets if it considers them a problem.
The USA is a nation of very scared people (mainly because it is so embarrassingly crap at dealing with the reast of the world.)
Therefore why should we send a UK citizen to the US so they can be tortured and humiliated when they spy on us all the time too?
Can't even begin to imagine the russians or chinese giving up one of there own.
Fellow britons aren't you just sick of the world seeing you as second rate americans?
McKinnon isn't a terrorist, and again here we see a huge over reaction from our so called "SPECIAL FRIENDS"
Why doesn't our goverment protect us from the Bush fascists?
Are they the same Russians that refused to extradite someone accused of murdering someone in the UK because their Constitution bans extradition under any circumstances? Wow. Clearly UK law is so inferior because it recognises extradition treaties and lets people who are palpably guilty of serious offences get extradited to a nasty country like the USA.
Ah!
Well... to paraphrase a great Englishman (Sherlock Holmes):
It is always a joy to meet an American, Mr. chillipig, for I am one of those who believe that the folly of a monarch and the blundering of a minister in far-gone years will not prevent our children from being some day citizens of the same world-wide country under a flag which shall be a quartering of the Union Jack with the Stars and Stripes.
Last edited by Crazy Eddy on 31 Jul 2008 - 00:30
Last edited by jwjw1 on 31 Jul 2008 - 00:59
Are they the same Russians that refused to extradite someone accused of murdering someone in the UK because their Constitution bans extradition under any circumstances? Wow. Clearly UK law is so inferior because it recognises extradition treaties and lets people who are palpably guilty of serious offences get extradited to a nasty country like the USA.
Ah!
Well... to paraphrase a great Englishman (Sherlock Holmes):
It is always a joy to meet an American, Mr. chillipig, for I am one of those who believe that the folly of a monarch and the blundering of a minister in far-gone years will not prevent our children from being some day citizens of the same world-wide country under a flag which shall be a quartering of the Union Jack with the Stars and Stripes.
The US isn't a 'nasty country.' Zimbabwe is a nasty country. The Democratic Republic of Congo is a nasty country. Myanmar is a nasty country. We have some broken priorities right now, but ask yourself if you'd rather be put on trial in the US, or a real 'nasty country?' And also, Sherlock Holmes wasn't a great Englishman. He was fictional.
Ummm....
"Mr. Chillpig" was a FICTIONAL CHARACTER in a SHERLOCK HOMES novel.
Please grow a cerebral cortex.
Ummm....
SHERLOCK HOLMES is a fictional character. "Sherlock Holmes"??? HELLO!!!
Please grow a cerebral cortex.
For all that matters there are many govts who will pay top dollar for the information he has the knowledge to access. All he needs to do is contact one of them and tell them what he can get them and he will disappear for good.
He should do time for his crime....what if i broke in to your bank account would you not want me to go to jail???
It's no different than walking onto a military base (most of which are largely unguarded and easy to enter, such as Fort Benning, GA), heading to a motorpool, and stealing a military vehicle for a joy ride. It's exactly the same thing. It doesn't matter how easy it was; it was just a collosally stupid thing to do and, much like this fictional dunderhead, Mr. Dumbass deserves anything and everything he gets.
Need more examples? Spend ten minutes learning how to break into and hotwire a car on the Internet. Now head to, say, a Cadillac car sales lot and steal an Escalade. Hey, they didn't have any thugs around to tackle you or otherwise prevent you from stealing the car, right? That cheap surveillance camera is hardly enough to stop the likes of you. Naturally, instead of being arrested and prosecuted, Cadillac should hire you and give you millions of dollars so that you can bolster their security! The dumbass who installed that camera is the one who needs to be punished.
Yeah. Right. That's every bit as idiotic as what most people in these threads have been vomiting about this British dumbass.
The only thing admirable in all this is the size of the man's balls. Such massively huge balls that need to be castrated so his level of stupid can be permanantly removed from the gene pool.
This joke of a human being doesn't deserve hero worship. He doesn't deserve to be lifted atop a pedestal of gold. He deserves to get his ass raped on a daily basis by a large diseased guy who only refers to him as his little bitch if for no other reason than to keep him from mating for as long as humanly possible.
BUSH should be extradited and charged for war crimes
just because he hacked into the system it doesn't mean he should be treated like an animal in one of your prisons, should he ever get extradited.
did Kevin mitnick deserve to get treated the way he did, Hell NO.
should Mckinnon get extradited he wont end up in a normal prison anyway, very doubtfull he will go to Guantanamo bay.
just because he hacked into the system it doesn't mean he should be treated like an animal in one of your prisons, should he ever get extradited.
did Kevin mitnick deserve to get treated the way he did, Hell NO.
should Mckinnon get extradited he wont end up in a normal prison anyway, very doubtfull he will go to Guantanamo bay.
Mitnick got off EASY !!!!!!!!
just because he hacked into the system it doesn't mean he should be treated like an animal in one of your prisons, should he ever get extradited.
He deserves it for the *stupidity* of his actions. If a dumbass walks into a police station and shoots a cop in the face, he deserves the same thing. If a fat guy gets stuck in a chimney while trying to break into a house, he deserves the same thing.
It's not like they made a tiny mistake that they can learn from. It's an epic-level of moronicness. I don't give a damn what country it takes place in or what nationality you are. If you are *that* stupid, you need to be put down for the betterment of humanity.
just because he hacked into the system it doesn't mean he should be treated like an animal in one of your prisons, should he ever get extradited.
He deserves it for the *stupidity* of his actions. If a dumbass walks into a police station and shoots a cop in the face, he deserves the same thing. If a fat guy gets stuck in a chimney while trying to break into a house, he deserves the same thing.
It's not like they made a tiny mistake that they can learn from. It's an epic-level of moronicness. I don't give a damn what country it takes place in or what nationality you are. If you are *that* stupid, you need to be put down for the betterment of humanity.
He didn't do a physical crime you moron. If he should be extradited for hacking computers and not causing any physical harm to people. I think BUSH and your entire government and military (those who served in iraq and fired a gun) should be extradited for killing innocent people in iraq and invading it unlawfully, because as it was proven: no wmd's.
He did something bad in there books but life in prison is kind of BS..
If I left my doors unlocked and I came home and **** was stolen, I can only blame myself for being an idiot and not locking the doors.
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