In a move sure to agitate privacy advocates, the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS) revealed last week that federal agents have now been given the power to seize and detain laptops and certain other electronics without any suspicion of wrongdoing during a border search. In addition, agents can hold these devices for unspecified periods of time, and share data from the laptop with other agencies. The new policy affects anyone entering the country, including US citizens, reported the Washington Post.The reasoning behind these decisions is clear to Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, as shown in a piece published last month in USA Today. "...the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices." Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials as well as images of child pornography," he wrote. However, others think differently: "They're saying they can rifle through all the information in a traveler's laptop without having a smidgen of evidence that the traveler is breaking the law," said Greg Nojeim, senior counsel at the Center for Democracy and Technology. "The policies . . . are truly alarming," stated Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.), who vowed to introduce legislation requiring reasonable suspicion before a search could be performed.
Recent court cases have ruled that only noninvasive border searches are permitted without reasonable suspicion under US law. Whereas body cavity searches and x-ray scans would go beyond the line, suitcase searches are deemed reasonable. The problem, therefore, boils down to whether a search of a laptop's contents constitutes an invasive search, which is what most privacy experts claim. "A laptop can hold [the equivalent of] a major university's library: It can contain your full life," says Peter Swire, a professor of law at Ohio State University in Columbus. "The government's never gotten to search your entire life, so this is unprecedented in scale what the government can get." Advocates of the policy, on the other hand, claim that a laptop is no more than a suitcase, and that requiring probable cause could result in massive delays.
Update: Added some more research into the issue.
Indeed......
Whoever told you that is your enemy.
Whoever told you that is your enemy.
Now something must be done, about vengeance, a badge and a gun... although it probably wont be.
Which is what you have to be to even breathe in US airports!
Pay attention to this sentence in particular:
"the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices." Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials"
So now you can be arrested for possessing "jihadist materials"? Information is now "dangerous contraband"?
It is the job of the Thought Police to uncover and punish thoughtcrime and thought-criminals, using psychology and omnipresent surveillance from telescreens to find and eliminate members of society who were capable of the mere thought of challenging ruling authority.
Well done Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.)
sorry I had to use that size and color.....
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Also what if everything on the drive was encrypted with like truecrypt or bitlocker =P I want to see homeland security crack that. What a brilliant waste of taxpayers money, not to mention the other things.
Last edited by / -Razorfold on 02 Aug 2008 - 14:49
sorry I had to use that size and color.....
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Also what if everything on the drive was encrypted with like truecrypt or bitlocker =P I want to see homeland security crack that. What a brilliant waste of taxpayers money, not to mention the other things.
thats right, it is a waste of taxpayers money, as well as a violation of our rights.
Scan the thing for drugs and explosives and let us be on our way.
Put the border patrol agents where they need to be on the border with mexico armed with assault rifles.
The Fifth Amendment protects you from being forced to testify against yourself. The only battle would be how long you wanted to stay in jail for contempt of court for trying to hide or tamper with evidence. Then, when you were released, you could plead the Fifth all you wanted at your trial.
We don't need no key, we'll break it!
Not true. Brute force is ineffective in this age. Even with the resources those departments have it would take hundreds of years to brute force just a triple blowfish encryption. Even the brute forcer's you download on the internet usually give you a time scale (starting in hours going up to millenia). If you aren't just lucky brute forcing is pointless.
You watch too much 24. Theres no way they can crack decent encryption, thats exactly why they make it illegal not to hand over the keys when requested here in the UK - because without them they can do jack.
More likely... instead, credit card information and business plans will be at their disposal. What about company trade secrets, private company meetings. Hell, it could be company trade secrets. This information is very valuable. It could easily be stolen and sold to the bidders on the black market. The information will be right there for the taking. All it takes is a few rogues. Most individuals are not going to encrypt their data. If you do... you are likely to be considered guilty.
This is another law that is going to do little to protect our nation, but rather only encumber us in more bureaucratic tape. The majority of terrorists and child predators are not going to get caught. Sure they will catch the dumb ones, but the serious ones will slip through because they are simply more intelligent than this. They are not going to store top secret bombing plans in their my pictures folder on an XP laptop. This is little more than a speed dumb to these individuals, but a grave danger to corporate business travelers.
Frankly, it doesn't surprise me. We are turning into a fascist state before our own eyes.
"A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within."
Frankly, it doesn't surprise me. We are turning into a fascist state before our own eyes.
This quote is extremely relevant especially in this day and age. And btw, it is not just America, but it is most surprising that people in america are actually letting all of this bullcrap go down. I used to admire the freedoms americans used to enjoy in the past, but these days I pity their enslavement...
I used to want to live in America when I was a kid..now I will never visit that place
Hell, even an episode of Family Guy can draw it out for you if you've seen the one where Lois becomes mayor. She needs money, so she creates a "threat", and suddenly the people are just throwing money at her. Just because it isn't as silly or as comical as the cartoon doesn't mean it isn't happening. What's worse is that we're not just giving them money, we're giving them our rights for this false illusion of "safety" from men in caves.
People keep pushing the tin foil hat on anyone who suggests that the government is in movement for more control. Yet, day after day, we keep giving them more and more. Then, we sit around kicking our feet drinking a beer with our friends saying,"Well, what you gonna do... this whole country is falling apart..." and so forth. I dunno... people just seem so damn backwards I guess.
Wrong!
Canadian Border Services have the power to do this also!
I have been labelled one of the tin foil hat brigade many times. The problem is that people REFUSE to acknowledge something that will shatter their version of "reality". The fact is that most people are too comfortable, and moving out of that comfort zone is hard...I am sure most people in America will see this law and go, ahh, who cares, I dont travel anyway, etc...
I feel sorry for the brave few who will speak out against this law, since they will most probably have very little or no support from the sheeple...
At least in Canada there are laws protecting privacy, for now...
Define reasonable?
In the future, the cops can stop you in the street and take your iPod off you -just incase you have unauthorised music on it.
Your ISPs (AS WELL AS GOOGLE) will provide to any authority what searches you have done.
And all of this can and probably will be done without suspicion or a warrant. If you do not comply, that will be called as criminal offence.
Like it was said in the first reply, welcome to the "HOME OF THE FREE".
God BLESS America!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtXl_TyM6aI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUdaPNXC_68
Just another reason not to visit the USA. In fact unless you were going over there for a laugh, to see how their country and econony are falling apart, wy bother.
So what is it now?
Mandatory fingerprinting
Laptop seizure with no cause
Whats next?, who cares I'm never going back there.
While I do disagree with this solely on the reasoning that they don't need to have suspicion of wrongdoing, I think you'd be overly paranoid to believe that they're going to check it without having that suspicion first anyways. It's a waste of their time otherwise.
-Spenser
If you can't see that a law like this is dangerous then I pity you. I pity your ignorance and your willingness to sacrifice liberty for the illusion of safety, to paraphrase a very famous individual.
If you can't see that a law like this is dangerous then I pity you. I pity your ignorance and your willingness to sacrifice liberty for the illusion of safety, to paraphrase a very famous individual.
Well said.
If you can't see that a law like this is dangerous then I pity you. I pity your ignorance and your willingness to sacrifice liberty for the illusion of safety, to paraphrase a very famous individual.
+1 trillion
If you can't see that a law like this is dangerous then I pity you. I pity your ignorance and your willingness to sacrifice liberty for the illusion of safety, to paraphrase a very famous individual.
thanx, jack*ss..... I'm not ignorant, in fact i'm smart enough to know that the us govt was set up to prevent any one part from becoming overly powerful (separation of powers, checks and balances). I'm not worried because theres no way the supreme court could ignore a case related to this, and thus, no way that the law will survive for very long. Even tho two of the justices are picked by Bush, he was still ruled against regarding illegal wiretaps. They do their job, not kiss bush's ass. All it takes is for one person to experience this type of abuse of power and have the resources to take it all the way to the supreme court, and they'll have to throw the law out. It's obviously unconstitutional.
Yes, but surely it's hard to have faith in the system when one part is already acting in an obscene manner? If one part of the system has already failed then how can you trust the others? The US already has Guantanamo Bay... clearly the checks and measures aren't working.
I thought the system was supposed to be sure the law is constitutional first, before being made a law at all. If that's not even being checked, wouldn't you say there is a flaw in the system to begin with?
Either way, I can only hope what you say is right. Somehow though... I just don't see it happening. :\
STFU
Foreigners don't have to take over America since Corporate America is selling you out whole sale.... Communist China already owns much of your national debt. They don't have to invade, they just have to foreclose.
They'll randomly pull people out of a line for no reason and subject them to a body cavity search, so confiscating your laptops and iPods for no reason doesn't surprise me. Revolts and disgusts me, yes, but it comes as no surprise.
If you think that it is ok then you wouldn't mind if we put cameras all through your home, even the bathroom, 24/7. After all if you got nothing to hide you shouldn't have a problem.
they would still leave with my laptop/phone for god knows, maybe six months.. so, no thanks dude, you really dont understand ****.
I was wondering when that old chesnut appeared!
You Sir may regret the day you said that. Because the rights & freedoms of the majority are being eroded due to a miniscule minority.
When you have checkpoints on every street corner, and you're ordered to have state radio playing in your house 24/7, then you'll wish you hadn't said those words.
Don't thingk it can happen? Look at China then look at the way your Country is going.
Even ours (UK), is going that way. We have more surveillance cameras watching us than China now!!!
I have nothing to hide but I have real problem!!!
Last edited by artnada on 03 Aug 2008 - 07:38
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Benjamin Franklin
You sicken me. You are one of those. An argument of an idiot. Thank God and the fathers that the second amendment was made for exactly the rhetoric your kind spew.
lol..
Why we let these people control us like that I'll never figure out..
i heard we're doing something similar in the UK
(the ability to check that your mp3's are legal!!!!
what a world we live in!
anyway......about this "law"
you know that they will do this for just about every coloured person, and pretty much go through your photos and probably your credit card details or documents that you have stored.......
how does my gf's nude photos help fight terrorism?!!!!
i heard we're doing something similar in the UK
(the ability to check that your mp3's are legal!!!!
And how exactly do they do that? There is no difference between legal or otherwise MP3's.
do you have to bring receipts for every piece of music you're briniging into the country?
haha... Sure. And if that ppl say that is because they are right. I bet all the cocain cartels are aware about this and now try to traffic their product in atomic bombs
LOL - what idiots
If they are just talking about some data, anyone with access to the internet can send "the most dangerous contraband" over to the USA without even leaving to comfort of their airmchair in IRAQ (or wherever).
"Serenity now!"
Already happening here in the UK.
Like photography? Don't take photos in public now, even though it's perfectly legal, if someone PCSO or Copper sees you they will [try to] demand you delete the pictures!
We're all terrorists in this County now. I weep for the future of the UK.
Guilty until proven innocent!
Last edited by artnada on 03 Aug 2008 - 07:37
So, if you want to "terrorism" in USA the best way is to obtain information inside USA. and not just information also dangerous material, i'm sure that in USA plutonium is available in every corner drugstore, but outside USA it's a little hard to come by.
+1
Don't expect to see (m)any Americans campaigning against this.
Last edited by TonyLock on 03 Aug 2008 - 18:24
This is totally useless and will not be used, they're already testing the new "brain extractors"! :yes:
Glassed Silver:mac
People, this is how your government convinces you of this, by playing on matters you are scared about.
Do you remember when Bush wanted to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? He kept saying those people over there "hate freedom". -That statement is terrorising to most Americans, even though it's not true at all. Muslims don't give two hoots about freedom as they know it's simply a false concept and they also know that in America you don't have real freedoms anyway.
The argument that the border control officers would take away your laptops to check for child porn is just their way of getting the publics support on this, since that is an issue that scares most people. According to psychologists, most pedos are poor old men who certainly won't have the money to travel internationally. Thus the TSA will only catch less then 0.0001% of the laptops they seize. However, this will still be given the blessings by most Americans.
One more thing, the TSA won't keep your laptop for a few hours or a few days, it's more likely going to be more than 90 days (at least), that is longer than the amount of time a non-American can stay in the country. You might as well as kiss your laptop good bye.
Wake up America and start demanding answers from your leaders.
American border agents act like they are above the law anyways.
They'll randomly pull people out of a line for no reason and subject them to a body cavity search, so confiscating your laptops and iPods for no reason doesn't surprise me. Revolts and disgusts me, yes, but it comes as no surprise.
When I was last in the USA, waiting in line at the TSA passport control desk in the airport, the TSA/HLS people pulled a "Random" woman out of the line and searched her.
"No big deal" I hear you say...
Well, yes, it was a freakin BIG deal. She was the only brown person on the flight. "So what" you say?
Well, the TSA stripped her COMPLETELY (100% naked, not a stitch was allowed to be left on her) and in front of all other passengers. What's the matter? JFK not have a private room where they could give her some level of dignity?
Most of the people in the line turned around to show the women some respect, a real shame Bush's henchmen didn't.
When I got to the desk, I asked about the woman and the TSA guy said it was a "random search" and it was none of my business. What a F*cking D*ck!
Welcome to America!
I should also add, why would a terrosist need to enter the country with a laptop in the first place? He could just buy one after arriving if needed and access his information from any number of free wireless hot spots. Does the government understand tech at all? I'm not a tech expert but even I am capable of figuring out how to cercumvent this rediculous policy.
Personally I don't believe this is about home land security at all.
The scary thing is:
There's no CLEAR Definition as to what you may be found guilty of when they search your Laptop.
Who knows what they can charge you with!!!!
If they feel like they can say you are a spy and then that's it.... Guantanamo for you buddy. lol wtf is this paranoid world is coming too!!
This is what the terrorists wanted to happen in the first place....everyone being suspicious and trust no one.
you really have to wonder who really benefits from this though....the Terrorists or Big Brother ??
If you aren't paranoid, you must be one of those people who believe everything the US Government tells you, along with the media, and everything else they throw at you to keep you occupied and entertained so you cant freely think for yourself and find out the truth they don't want you to know. I guess there is a difference in being paranoid and being 'awake'.
I think you people should wake up a bit.
google video - Jordan Maxwell, do some research and stop being scared of the big corporation labeled as the "UNITED STATES", Homeland Security is as much of a joke as the rest of it.
It's only a violation of your constitutional rights if you consent to it.
I think you people should wake up a bit.
Unplug me from the Matrix !!
Also, as the guys before were saying.....this is phase one of the beginning of the "Thought Police"
I would argue that "jihadist materials" are Constitutionally protected free speech, as long as they aren't say stolen nuclear bomb plans, etc.
An idea by itself is NOT illegal. Acting upon the idea in a criminal fashion is what's illegal.
This is the bedrock of the American experiment.
The Fifth Amendment protects you from being forced to testify against yourself. The only battle would be how long you wanted to stay in jail for contempt of court for trying to hide or tamper with evidence. Then, when you were released, you could plead the Fifth all you wanted at your trial.[/quote]
OK so assuming they take your laptop on suspicion on some ****ed up terrorist plan and it so happens that the hard drive is encrypted ... hence they take your laptop and they put you in jail .... (and you miss your honeymoon hence you brought your laptop with you to download the photos from the camera so you can your the memory to take new ones) ...
so while you sit in jail and think about your honeymoon and the American justice system (not to mention about racist profiling) ... the judge tell you ... "young man you must give us the password or else" so you say no .. why? i have done nothing wrong ...
after a few more ties you succumb and behold ... they boot the computer and find a desktop wallpaper of an ass with a lil brown stuff coming out of it (a close-up i may say) and moreover the laptop does not contain anything besides photos of yourself and your wife (some of which nude) ... and behold INVASION OF PRIVACY ...
I mentioned racial profiling because i am an European (tanned as it may be) always mistaken to be an indian/paki/middle eastern ... although i am clean shaven and short hair (no facial features that actually seem remotely being a terrorist) ... and yet get stopped and asked what is my nationality and yet i am canadian ... (this always happend while traveling to the states)
It's amazing how a vast majority of people, who disagree with the things the Government does, just sits back and takes it. That's why there is no hope for humanity anymore. Everyone has gotten too lazy. If the Goverment tried to pull this crap back in the 1700 or 1800s, you would have a revolution on your hands.
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