UK to invest in massive 'spy' database

Something you would have thought would only be part of action movies may be a reality soon in the UK. The government has plans to create a massive database that will store all phone calls, emails, and internet logs of all UK citizens. The information can be stored for as long as 2 years.

The database will take time to create, but there are trials and tests set in place with pre-determined people.

This is a feasible solution to solving criminal cases, and lowering crime rates, however, many will see it as a very large invasion of privacy.

UK Home Office minister, Lord West, noted:
"It is a cross-government program, led by the Home Office, to ensure that our capability to lawfully intercept and exploit data when fighting crime and terrorism is not lost."

I would like to hear you opinions, Neowin. In an act to ensure safety, is this action taking it too far?

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(TC17 said @ #51)
If the UK does it, then it would only be a matter of time before the US tries to do it. Yes it goes against our Consitution, but apparently our congress gives a sh** about our Constitution.

The US has ALREADY been doing this!!! In america, the phone companies ARE the wire-tappers...legally! (and it's no doubt the same in much of mainland Europe) They each record and track their own customers' calls 24/7 and are allowed to by U.S federal law! See HERE: http://www.callcorder.com/phone-recording-law-america.htm

Here's some more links:
US lawmakers pass wiretaps bill - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7466544.stm
FBI wiretaps cut off over unpaid bills - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jan/11/usa
US Senate approves wire-tapping bill - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/42967a86-4de5-11...0077b07658.html

I live within the boundaries of the law and have no major vices (well, except for those catgirls ^_^) but my worry is the Gov't record with securing data - hardly a week goes by without someone leaving a laptop or usb stick somewhere.

I agree with JayZJay, apart from there will be some factors in future but it will be just more of the same just with Lasers or robots.

3. Study what we knew about Pearl Harbor and the Japanese attack before it happened.
Even the The History Channel talks about us having received and decoded Japanese communication days before.
Guess what, the American people were finally willing to enter World War II after the attack.

Don't forget the Soviets, who through their top spy in Japan where able to pull those Siberian divisions away from the border with Japan in Manchuria. They warned the americans about Japanese intentions yet the USA done nothing as they wanted the Japanese to attack so they had provocation. The Japanese Naval Code was broken before Pearl Harbour, If I recall correctly the Dutch had even broken the Japanese Naval Code.

The Gulf of Tonkin "Incident" is also highly suspect.

Yes it goes against our Consitution, but apparently our congress gives a sh** about our Constitution.

The US Constitution is violated daily by DEA & DHS daily in the US to name just 2 agencies. Do a search on youtube for checkpointusa or the illegal DEA searchs on amtrak trains. The US went to war without a declartion of war which is required by the US Constitution.

If the UK does it, then it would only be a matter of time before the US tries to do it. Yes it goes against our Consitution, but apparently our congress gives a sh** about our Constitution.

I could easily post pages of information on this topic.

But I will only comment a few things.

I think it is important to remember (whether American or British) that history repeats itself and that there is nothing new under the sun. Unfortunately, humans forget and/or always think they can avoid past mistakes. We tend to think that, somehow, it will be different this time.

The whole safety and security argument is ALWAYS used to get people to give up liberties and freedoms (the right to privacy being one of them). ALWAYS. You can absolutely bank on it.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Study history and you will find time and time again that Problem, Reaction, Solution is used on a regular basis to manipulate masses of people. What is Problem, Reaction, Solution? Create or allow a problem that you know can be used to introduce a "solution" that you have planned. Then, after the "event" or problem (whether real or just promoted by gossip or media) has taken place and caused a reaction and concern with the citizenry/people, the "solution" is brought to the forefront. The "solution" simply brings about a small or large step in the direction that the planners wanted.

A couple of examples:

1. Nero burned down Rome and blamed it on the Christians.
Guess what, Nero got rid of a lot of Christians.

2. Hitler and his men saw to it that the Reichtag was burned down and the "event" was blamed on x, y, and z.
What do you think happened to x, y, and z and to Germany and the peoples' liberties and freedoms?
There are many sources to these facts, but check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBNesQCY70w

3. Study what we knew about Pearl Harbor and the Japanese attack before it happened.
Even the The History Channel talks about us having received and decoded Japanese communication days before.
Guess what, the American people were finally willing to enter World War II after the attack.

4. The League of Nations failed horribly during/after World War I. People around the world weren't ready.
After World War II, the people were much more receptive to the idea. The name changed to the United Nations,
but the UN is just League of Nations II.

5. Oklahoma City Bombing -- local TV televised the fact that two (2) more bombs were found in the building and
removed after a third bomb in the building had gone off. The 2 bombs removed were actually bigger than the
one that went off. None of this is ever discussed. The official story is a Ryder truck outside in front of the building
had a bomb that caused the damage. All video tapes from building cameras in the area were quickly confiscated.
But, all of the local TV footage remains, although not discussed. Guess what, some nice legislation was passed after
that taking away more liberties and freedoms from Americans.

6. Do I even need to discuss the grand daddy of them all, September 11, 2001? Keep in mind that part of Problem,
Reaction, Solution is that planners create or ALLOW an event or problem. Either way, the real or believed "event"
is gladly used. One could certainly discuss events in Austrailia, UK, or other places around the world. Remember,
there is nothing new under the sun.


Despite the fact that many people will write them off as "Conspiracy Theory" or have the mindset of "Don't confuse me with the facts, I've already made up my mind.", a couple of good videos with information that one can actually research and verify are...

Alex Jones (www.InfoWars.com): "911 - The Road To Tyranny"

Michael Ruppert/From The Wilderness: "The Truth and Lies of 9-11"

"Loose Change" (www.LooseChange911.com)

The interesting thing about this new announcement is ECHELON has been in place for years. I first heard about Echelon in 2001 or 2002. How does this new plan tie into ECHELON? My understanding of ECHELON is the agreement between the countries involved is such that one country will "spy" on the people of another country, but not their own. So, for example, UK might have the US spy on their people and as a result, the UK officials can honestly say that we don't spy on our people. BUT, what they are not telling is that they have the US or another participating country do it and share the information.

Food for thought. Think about aircraft and things that are around for years, maybe even up to 20 years, before they are declassified and made officially known to the public. Is this same thing happening with ECHELON or other technology and/or systems?

Some good information and links about ECHELON are at:

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

It is disgusting a govt would want to do such a thing, it is a huge invasion of UK citizens privacy, a security threat to our own data, as it is likely to be insecure and hacked, as if the govt hasnt taken away enough of our rights in the name of terrorism already. It's about time us british people stood up to the government and said 'Enough is enough' We grant the right (by voting for them) for them to run the country. if they don't do what we want we should stand up to that.

They don't care as long as they have their second homes, expensive furnishings, top of the range cars, they don't give two *replace with profanity* about us citizens.

this country's govt is creating its own destruction, and its about time they come to realise it.

in fact, us people should be given free votes on what happens when it comes to issues as big as this, but the govt wouldn't do that as they no we will say no!

We wasnt even given a vote for the complete idiot gordon brown to become prime minister after Tony blair. i think it is wrong as a new prime minister SHOULD be voted for if the previous one resigns. But they say it isnt possible cause that parties term is still not complete.

I am disgusted in this country, and im only 16, as soon as i can i will leave (if thats even possible with all these interviews you have to go for to get a passport etc)

NOOOO THERE JUST gonna lose our DATA EVEN MORE, Government please stop recording and losing our identity without our permission, I urge a general election earlier please, labour suck balls oh and stop Taxing us to death!


i can definitely see people abusing this... whats to stop them from reading stuff that belongs to people they know, for personal reasons? or deleting their own phonecalls and emails from the system...?

Here's another thought aswell...

If they're only just telling us about it now, it means it's been up and running for years! Any time the Government says they're "thinking about" doing something, or "it's in the planning stages" etc... more aften than not it has already begun and has been going for quite some time.

It's a basic tactic so the public won't think about it too much. If they say "oh, we're thinking about it, but you won't see it happen for a few years", the public is more likely to ignore it because they think "that's ok, no need to worry about it yet" but of course it'll never re-appear because it had already started and therefore there is nolonger any need to address it.

That way, if any news DOES leak about it "up and running" in the future, the public won't be surprised or won't care (and therefore won't retaliate) because they'll simply say "well, they did say they were planning it!"

Works every time!

(Nilhanth said @ #43)
Here's another thought aswell...

If they're only just telling us about it now, it means it's been up and running for years! Any time the Government says they're "thinking about" doing something, or "it's in the planning stages" etc... more aften than not it has already begun and has been going for quite some time.

It's a basic tactic so the public won't think about it too much. If they say "oh, we're thinking about it, but you won't see it happen for a few years", the public is more likely to ignore it because they think "that's ok, no need to worry about it yet" but of course it'll never re-appear because it had already started and therefore there is nolonger any need to address it.

That way, if any news DOES leak about it "up and running" in the future, the public won't be surprised or won't care (and therefore won't retaliate) because they'll simply say "well, they did say they were planning it!"

Works every time!

A distinct possibility - it has happened here before so wouldn't be surprising.

For instance things like this : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/11/bu...rs_cheesed_off/
have probably been going on for years but it comes down to where does one draw the line ?

Something you would have thought would only be part of action movies may be a reality soon in the UK.

Not at all - would have assumed this was already happening, and rather it is being made more public now.

Hopefully we can spread this news and the link to the petition so maybe it won't happen...

Not so fast. It's all about tracking people and information. By signing that petition (as well as other info) you only serve as to build up a larger profile on yourself.

Possibly I am TOO distrusting of governments, but I believe that if they have an agenda - then they will follow it through whatever petitions are raised.

Also, I am not particularly keen on how we protest these days - signing an online petition - it's lazy, and as such indicates that we have an initial reaction but no real commitment to the ideals we are claiming to support.

The irony in this is a bit amusing to me although I am not happy that the privacy of people is being stepped on, but for the people who always talk trash about the United States... Well, it looks like they got a taste of their own medicine. It's really too bad that people can't have their privacy anymore, not just in with what will happen in the UK but also in the US. The Bush Administration has been hiding behind the excuse of protecting everyone from terrorism but they are guilty of terrorism themselves.

Things like the alert system put fear into people. The ability to wiretap without a subpoena or detain someone in custody for any amount of time they want with no trial... All of that is used to put fear into people to get what they want. It's ridiculous.

That's terrible news, probably the biggest invasion of privacy that you could image, all in the name of terrorism... yeah right.

Sadly these days it seems that no amount of outrage can stop politicians from doing what they want so unfortunately UK citizens should brace themselves for it.

No doubt eventually we'll see it rolled across the rest of the world once the UK perfects the technology.

On the wall outside his former residence - flat number 27B - where Orwell lived until his death in 1950, an historical plaque commemorates the anti-authoritarian author. And within 200 yards of the flat, there are 32 CCTV cameras, scanning every move. Link

I thought that was crazy enough, but recording every telephone call, email, etc? I'd expect things like that from China...but the UK?

This is all Biblical, and prophecy.
This is nothing for whats to come.
Before you flame me, do your research.
The EU is the revival of the roman empire.

You have nothing else to loose researching this, except more of your freedom if the government chooses.

"He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." - Benjamin Franklin

Now the only question is - who the hell do we vote for next time?? All of them are a dead loss!!

Sound intimidating but

IT IS NOT FEASIBLE

How much petabytes they want to store? (or Zettabyte?)

how they will be able to examine it?. We talk about *a lot* of data and can growth even bigger than Internet.

how valid and trustworthy is this information?.

And, UK lacks of pre-paid cellphone, anonymous cibercafe or free and anonymous wifi spot? Or even yet to use a public telephone box?

They are afraid of something but im not sure who or what.

Umm, for one the space size wouldn't be incredibly large, call quality can be very poor taking up only a few kb per minute if that, most emails are reasonably short.

I am wondering how secure these files are planned to be? could they be altered? what happens to it after 2 years? could citizens be retroactively convicted of crimes from past emails longer than 2 years ago?

It just seems to be a horrendous invasion of privacy for a 3rd party to hold this private information that could be potentially breached in security. Even if its to prevent terrorism, what ordinary citizens will be terrorized through a justice system for emails and phone calls that shouldn't have put them there?

Considering the British government sells our personal information to anyone who asks I wonder how much my e-mails and web browsing habits will sell for?

I think its a terrible idea which I hope for sanities sake will fail before it becomes to late.

perhaps pointless spam and useless file transfers might bork it all up, especially if keywords that might be used to trigger further investigation are used completely out of their usual context, information overload.

now if i was a terrorist or a criminal would i really be using the usual insecure ways to communicate?, i think not

like one guy said up there terrorism is control caused by fear.. this system will cause that...the uk government will become the biggest terrorists known... this is a step in to communism and a leap in to terrorism... im jealous of irlend they did the right thing and got out early..

i live not for queen nore for country (espically not this rubbish one) i live and die for the freedom of my loved ones and self and england is getting in the way of my life

This world is getting out of hand. Our rights are getting violated more and more each day. When does it end? It won't be long before we're fined 200 credits for using profanity like in Demolition Man.

(notta said @ #19)
This world is getting out of hand. Our rights are getting violated more and more each day. When does it end? It won't be long before we're fined 200 credits for using profanity like in Demolition Man.

just thought id point this out this guy is right and il tell you when it ends... when the 5th is recreated and succeded or when the country warsagainst the government ..which WILL happen

(notta said @ #19)
This world is getting out of hand. Our rights are getting violated more and more each day. When does it end? It won't be long before we're fined 200 credits for using profanity like in Demolition Man.

We're already beyond that, remember the woman who got arrested at Wal-Mart for saying the F word...

This will certainly cut crime like pircay and peadophiles in the short term until some new method of distribution is developed. As for the general law abiding users, the government really doesnt care about our pointless little lives.

When are the people going to realise this is complete and utter bull**** ?

Terrorism is a scare tactic used by governments to utterly control its population by keeping them living in fear, and having them hand over their freedoms all in the name of "security".

Governments around the world who are dreaming these proposals up must be sitting having a good laugh at our expense, knowing full well that enough people dont care enough and are just docile enough to think "awww its the goverment saying we need protection. They obviously know better than us, so lets allow them to ride roughshod over us and every facet of our lives. As long as we can watch Eastenders, Big Brother, and read about vacuous celebrities then everything will be allright."

For f**ks sake everyone ... the time has long past for the people to speak up and do something, yet all the while the government have been putting measures in place to ensure that if an uprising did occur, those protesting etc.. would be either arrested or shot on site (As an example .. investigate how close to Westminster / Houses of Parliament you can get to stage a protest).

**** weather, **** government, sheep like people who just accept everything they are spoon fed by the television / newspapers / magazines. Is it any wonder Britain is a joke (and no 16 golds in the Olympics doesnt change my opinion - its a 2 week event that pales in comparison to the real world that the rest of us have to live in day by day) and needs to be cleaned up on all fronts - Education, Crime, Housing, Equal rights ...

(thealexweb said @ #16.1)
I hate to say it but it sounds like you've really lost it.

This is not the first time this has happened. go read some Joseph Goebbels.

(ramesees said @ #16)
Terrorism is a scare tactic used by governments to utterly control its population by keeping them living in fear, and having them hand over their freedoms all in the name of "security".

Absolutely, completely totally and utterly bang on.

What a joke.

Exactly, this reeks of Big Brother law by stealth. Heck, after 9/11, the Patriot Act was dropped on to Congress, but the law had been drafted up well before, they just needed an excuse to implement it.

I've completely lost trust with this Govt. who thinks taking away privacy will stop terrorists. If there's a will, there's a way.

This seems to be more about controlling the UK than controlling crime.

Think of it, emails or telephone calls from journalists to contacts, clients to lawyers, patients to doctors, anything which could or should be thought of as privileged could be read under the proposed system, and will be read under the proposed system - by anyone who can gain access to the database.

Not so long ago we were told the hordes of CCTV cameras (must be upwards of 6million now in the UK) would stop crime but now they are used to fine people whose dogs are caught fouling under the wrong tree or spy on garbage bins which may not be closed properly. Have these CCTV cameras stopped crime ? maybe a few, but with record handgun deaths, record levels of white collar fraud and politicians on the take nearly everywhere .. they don't seem to have stopped much crime ...

Remember folks, which party the current UK government are .. Labour .. yes that's right .. Labour .. famous years ago for being in with the socialists & communists east side .. who along with their organisations such as the Stasi kept such databases on their population and held them almost in terror .. neighbour telling on neighbour, even kids ratting out their own parents .. so, despite it being 'New" Labour .. the old habits seem to die hard ?

Shhht: listen up!
Latest terrorism practice is making the countries so affraid that they practically rip themselves apart by giving up their highest principles!
Such governemental actions rather make terrorists happy than stop their actions.
It's totally ridiculous that terrorists would still use such means of information exchange. many things happen on a local base anyways, too.
You don't need contact to your taliban friends in some far away countries to know "what to do" and "when".
People should immediately tell their governements to stop this BC ASAP and return to not eating ourselves up.
Terrorism starts right here, giving up our own principles for the sake of "security", which is a null point as I pointed out.

Glassed Silver:mac

(NinjaGinger said @ #10)
1984 has arrived.

Its been here for awhile, 14 million cameras already so it won't be long till we all have 1 each & of course we will have to pay for it, pay to run it & pay to have someone or something watch it. Thank feck I don't live in the UK but these c***s will give other gov's ideas about how to milk & police the cash cow that is the modern democratic citizen/consumer/slave.

(Insolent1 said @ #10.1)

Its been here for awhile, 14 million cameras already so it won't be long till we all have 1 each & of course we will have to pay for it, pay to run it & pay to have someone or something watch it. Thank feck I don't live in the UK but these c***s will give other gov's ideas about how to milk & police the cash cow that is the modern democratic citizen/consumer/slave.

Oi there we go some one has to start calling other people, I'd like it if you didn't call my country thanks.

(thealexweb said @ #10.2)

Oi there we go some one has to start calling other people, I'd like it if you didn't call my country thanks.

WTF is that supposed to mean I have not slagged off the UK or any other country for that matter in my 2 comments. I also have a vested interest in what happens in the UK as I have many relations there, the UK still controls part of my country & we are also both part of the EU(which looks like it might be the only chance to save you from your countries current & probably future goverment).
Your apathetic comment at the start of the comments section pretty much sums up the problem with modern democracies. On a lighter & overplayed note I would like to take the time to welcome your Nu all seeing, all knowing, all tracking, all controlling overlords.

"He thought of the telescreen with its never-sleeping ear. They could spy on you night and day, but if you kept your head you could still outwit them. With all their cleverness they had never mastered the secret of finding out what another human being was thinking."

This is gonna be a massive waste of money that won't work & will be unsecure. The sheer amount of spam that they are going to have to go through is unbeliveable & probably impossible to do with current technology and all for stopping the elusive terrorist stuff. I wouldn't mind but the "war on terror" is just a excuse for gov's to improve their snooping on citizens & collecting more revenue to spend on crap like this so they can keep "their" pals(usual gov outsource companies) in wads of cash. No wonder they are tryin to let BT away with Phorm when all they want is a piece of the same cake. The continued errosion of civil liberties in the UK(and the speed nulab comes up with these BS ideas) is scary & the way they are tryin to slip this through under the guise of not wanting to waste parliments time debating it is even more scary.
Hopefully the sheer amount of money been wasted on this will create enough media hype to stop it but then most of media works for/is in the same group that controls the gov......theres a knock at me door

with the governments IT record this will be EPIC FAIL ! seriously how can we trust a government with this when so much data has been lost through incompetence ? give me a friggin break :suspicious:

This is just another invasion of privacy by a government determined to strip of us any basic freedoms and to sell our data on to the highest bidder (or give it away free on cd). This kind of unnecessary abuse of technology (and power) is just one of a million others reasons why Labour will be gone come the next general election. With their IT record it'll never be finished by then anyway.

EPIC FAIL

Why not dispense with all the other freedoms while we're at it? It will certainly be easier to spot terrorists because they'll be the ones speaking out against the government. We'll just throw them in jail to ensure the domestic tranquility. Can't have people going on about invasive government. We're doing it to keep you safe. /sarcasm

I'm an American, nmesisca. So does that make me a complete idiot. I hate that European sense of superiority. It's just as much bull**** as the American sense of superiority many exude.

actually, it wasnt meant to show a sense of superiority at all.
I just cant still come to terms with the fact that you confirmed your president for a second mandate.
And yeah, I am a bit unfair but I do think most responsibilities for where we all are at the moment are with the USA and the usual war to terror.
Stragely enough i dont recall ever being in such a pain to travel and go around in the world prior to the war on terror.

main problem with this is the government can't keep anything safe or secure. you name it, our government has probably lost it, laptops, cds, prisoners all lost at some point

I'm not an idiot thank you very much and I live in the UK and since your in Ireland my opinion matters more on this news story because I live in where this will take place.

(thealexweb said @ #2.1)
I'm not an idiot thank you very much and I live in the UK and since your in Ireland my opinion matters more on this news story because I live in where this will take place.


you say you're not an idiot and you still are happy about this? riiiiight.
are you going to be happy when your goverment will "lose" your phone number, credit card and DNA string as well?

(nmesisca said @ #2.2)


you say you're not an idiot and you still are happy about this? riiiiight.
are you going to be happy when your goverment will "lose" your phone number, credit card and DNA string as well?

I never said I'm completely happy with it or come to think of it I never said anything like I'm happy about it, I just meant I'm not completely against it.

You must be from Ireland your first comment could only come from someone who's drank too much and can't think straight. Oh how stereotypes never cease to amaze me. Cause we all know everyone from Ireland is drunk right?

You realize that there's a good amount of Americans who don't support this kind of stuff and don't say everything is because of terrorism. Our government says everything is for terrorism not the people.

(Ricky Smith said @ #2.4)
You must be from Ireland your first comment could only come from someone who's drank too much and can't think straight. Oh how stereotypes never cease to amaze me. Cause we all know everyone from Ireland is drunk right?

You realize that there's a good amount of Americans who don't support this kind of stuff and don't say everything is because of terrorism. Our government says everything is for terrorism not the people.


I am in Ireland.
I am not Irish.
And I do NOT drink. At all.

(nmesisca said @ #2.6)


I am in Ireland.
I am not Irish.
And I do NOT drink. At all.

Yes well I live in America, I was born and raised here. I'm Irish and English in decent, and guess what? I don't think everything is to prevent terrorism. So how about we don't generalize whole groups?

(thealexweb said @ #1)
I know many will hate this but if it's any consolation it should help stop terrorism.

No, Not really. The terrorist planning most likely occurs outside the country anyway. "Terrorism" is a means of controlling people via fear. If the government says terrorism is imminent, people won't be as concerned about having their phonecalls and emails monitored because hey, it will "stop terrorism."

"It's alright, we'll just go through your stuff. There will be no more terrorism very soon."

(RPDL said @ #1.2)
The real terrorists are the government.

Yeah, I think that is what he was getting at...

You think this will solve terroism? bull**** mate, its to invade peoples privacy. Terrorists have better encryption than what any home users have and all programs such as IM would have it built in. Well I'm definately leaving the UK now, thanks for basically telling me to **** off, labour.

(thealexweb said @ #1)
I know many will hate this but if it's any consolation it should help stop terrorism.

Unfortunately with all this crap in the US, they don't seem to have been able to provide any evidence that it's helping at all. Welcome to your own Big Brother.

Funny how we're supposed to have control of our government, yet the government seems to be the one controlling us... :(

By the way, where are the tin foil hats? As I've seen on the forums before, anyone who believes that the government is taking advantage of us, removing our rights, or simply stepping in for more control is laughed at. Oh, but that's just some science fiction mumbo jumbo, right? Oh wait...

@ n_K: Why leave? I mean, you can't run from a problem like this. How long before the next country is doing it?

(thealexweb said @ #1)
I know many will hate this but if it's any consolation it should help stop terrorism.

Yes, because they always make their plans over the phone.

(thealexweb said @ #1)
I know many will hate this but if it's any consolation it should help stop terrorism.

If you want to stop terrorism, tell the UK government to stop using terrorist oil.

Middle Eastern oil = terrorism.

it should help stop terrorism

What terrorism? We've had one bus bomb go off and that was through home grown terrorism. Our liberties are slowly eroded thanks to this seemingly invisible terrorist threat - the government needs to start being a bit more transparent with us.

(Dakkaroth said @ #1.7)
@ n_K: Why leave? I mean, you can't run from a problem like this. How long before the next country is doing it?

Lol true, but I hate labour entirely, they are conservative scum and don't give a crap WHAT the people think. Oh and browns a bloody hypocrite, his website is illegal in that its entirely copyright theft yet he wants everyone that breaks the copyright law to be punished so badly, hope he gets sued loads and put in prison for it