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Why Microsoft's TomTom lawsuit is really an attack on Linux

James7   on 08 March 2009 - 04:50 · 70 comments & 14771 views

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What, actually, is at stake here? Microsoft has long claimed that Linux violates more than 200 of its patents, but the company has never provided any information with regard to what those patents are--until, it would appear, now. As noted, the Redmond company is suing TomTom and its GPS auto-navigation software with regard to a number of patents--eight in all. TomTom makes use of the Linux kernal in its products. But the kicker, according to ComputerWorld, as far as Linux is concerned appears to be patent number 5,579,517.

More specifically, we read from the patent abstract: "An operating system provides a common name space for both long filenames and short filenames. In this common namespace, a long filename and a short filename are provided for each file. Each file has a short filename directory entry and may have at least one long filename directory entry associated with it. The number of long filename directory entries that are associated with a file depends on the number of characters in the long filename of the file. The long filename directory entries are configured to minimize compatibility problems with existing installed program bases."

For those with a taste for history, this will be read as the "VFAT" innovation (or kludge, depending on your point of view). Prior to Windows 95, versions of Windows relied on FAT file system. This system provided for filenames that were a total of eleven characters along, excluding the dot. Examples? WINWORD.EXE or MYFILE01.DOC.

Wishing to outdo other current operating systems for filename length (Mac System 7's Finder had a technical limit of 31 characters for each file name), Microsoft developed VFAT, which allowed filenames up to 255 characters long.

However, Windows 95 had to deal with the fact that many people would be using it with programs developed for earlier versions of Windows (and DOS)--programs that would only save filenames in the 8.3 format. In order to get around this issue and allow Windows 95 to work well with earlier versions of Windows, Microsoft's VFAT had to recognise filenames written in both systems. It did so by creating a single "name space" for a given file's 8.3 version and its 255-limit version. The company received a US patent for this feature on 26 November 1996.

Now, the differences between "patents" and "copyrights" are many. It is highly unlikely that Linux infringes on any idea of copyright for VFAT (the code in Linux that allows for the reading of and writing to VFAT is not the same code as that which Microsoft's products use). However, the very fact that Linux has this capability could be taken as a violation of Microsoft's patent.

Think about the following: I can write a sentence that describes how to tie one's shoelaces. Perhaps I would write, "Cross both laces over and run one under the other... [etc]." You too could write a sentence describing how one ties one's laces: "Take one lace in the left hand and the other in the right... [etc]." Now, the second description would be different enough not to affect my copyright on the first sentence. However, if I owned a patent on tying one's laces, then you would have violated my patent by even trying to describe, albeit in a different manner, the process of tying laces.

This difference is at the heart of many debates over the whole issue of software "patents". So far, only a few countries even allow software patents (the US being one of them). This key reason that many object to software being patentable is glaringly present here. Think about murder mysteries. Agatha Christie took her fame from providing highly formulaic popular fiction organised around simple plots involving the solution of murders (by, among others, a presumably virginal spinster and an asexual Belgian). She owned (and now her estate owns) the copyright to those works. However, many others since (and likely before... "prior art"!) have written murder mysteries structured similarly to hers. If she had held a patent to the "murder mystery" genre, then no one else could have legally written murder mysteries.

Getting back to Microsoft's lawsuit against TomTom and (by proxy) Linux, we see that they are actually asserting their patent to the VFAT file system. They are not challenging the fact that Linux can read from and write to VFAT by a different means from Microsoft's. They are claiming the patent right, duly granted by the US PTO (Patent and Trademark Office), to stop anyone doing that, whatever the code used. This is not a patent they have spent much time asserting--companies who churn out memory devices routinely use file-system technology that "breaks" the Microsoft patent, but Microsoft have thus far been hesitant about asserting their legal rights there.

The Public Patent Foundation tried to have Microsoft's patent revoked on the grounds that it was obvious (and that there was "prior art"). The patent was revoked in 2004, but then, after Microsoft submitted a revision of the patent, it was reinstated. The irony here is that there are perfectly good open-source file systems out there that are free and technologically superior to any FAT-based solution. But companies over the years have defaulted to it because of the monopoly Microsoft has with Windows... and Microsoft has known this and, it would not be a stretch to claim, welcomed this, for it keeps them in the driving seat. The PTO's reinstatement of Microsoft's claim, even in light of the fact that the US government declared Microsoft to be a monopoly (which means that they must obey special rules limiting their "abuse" of their monopoly status that other businesses do not have to obey), is what will no doubt be probed in the trial.

It remains to be seen what will happen with this lawsuit. The issue is even more complicated than I've explained it here: for instance, it appears to involve the use by Microsoft and other companies of secret cross-licensing agreements which "break" the GPL. It could, however, be bad news for Linux (at least in America), or the patent claim which directly affects Linux could be revoked a second time. At the end of the day, this is a bold move by Microsoft in its always-uneasy relations with Linux and the open-source world.

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#1 Sam Symons Live on 08 Mar 2009 - 05:02
Interesting article. Good read, too.
(15 replies) #2 Max1978 on 08 Mar 2009 - 05:19
I think most of what is said about MS vs TomTom is speculation. It looks as if the GPL crowd wants it to be a MS vs Linux issue, which is far-fetched. I'll believe these stories when I see evidence of MS going after Linux.
#2.1 vetJames7 on 08 Mar 2009 - 05:20
This is the only way they can go after Linux.
#2.2 war on 08 Mar 2009 - 05:47
Max1978, I agree it's just more Microsoft bashing at the hands of Neowin editors.

Seems they are doing that a lot lately!
#2.3 Marshalus on 08 Mar 2009 - 06:12
Because all that coverage we provide Microsoft about their latest software releases, that's all bashing.

If we do is cover Microsoft, we get attacked for being fanboys... if we provide other points of view we're bashing Microsoft. We can't win.

(BTW, all three of the editors, we use more Microsoft software than we can keep a count of )
#2.4 Sam Symons Live on 08 Mar 2009 - 06:26
Marshalus said,
If we do is cover Microsoft, we get attacked for being fanboys... if we provide other points of view we're bashing Microsoft. We can't win.

It makes me sad at how much truth is in that sentence.
#2.5 vetJames7 on 08 Mar 2009 - 06:38
I grew up with Windows. I switched to Linux about a year and a half ago. I stayed with Neowin because this is a great community and it is really open. I worked for a while on Shift Linux: http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showforum=182 (yipers! Neowin promoting a distro of Linux?!). And there is strong Apple community here too, as one might well notice.

We are, at end of day, about computing.
#2.6 Minimoose on 08 Mar 2009 - 07:56
I don't see how this is bashing at all... Interesting article.
#2.7 WAR-DOG on 08 Mar 2009 - 08:03
Blame Steve Ballmer!
#2.8 Max1978 on 08 Mar 2009 - 10:19
James7 said,
This is the only way they can go after Linux.


What is this supposed to mean? It's like being caught with your pants down with a hooker, and claiming - "officer, you're not arresting me for soliciting sex, but because I use the Linux kernel".
#2.9 CalumJR on 08 Mar 2009 - 13:52
@war -

Please, just stop with the comments like that. They don't provide to a meaningful discussion and are naively insulting Neowin for no reason.

We provide a fair and balanced viewpoint in all of our articles. Comments like that will be deleted in future as they provide nothing to a meaningful discussion about the article.
#2.10 Recon415 on 08 Mar 2009 - 20:36
Sam Symons Live said,
It makes me sad at how much truth is in that sentence.



It is a known fact that complete neutrality is literally impossible.
#2.11 hynesy on 09 Mar 2009 - 00:22
Sam Symons Live said,
It makes me sad at how much truth is in that sentence.


+1

Sadly it can be exactly the same with any Apple coverage.
#2.12 toadeater on 09 Mar 2009 - 00:41
Marshalus said,
If we do is cover Microsoft, we get attacked for being fanboys... if we provide other points of view we're bashing Microsoft. We can't win.


Then post more technical info instead of sensationalist stories.
#2.13 vetJames7 on 09 Mar 2009 - 02:31
Max1978 said,
What is this supposed to mean? It's like being caught with your pants down with a hooker, and claiming - "officer, you're not arresting me for soliciting sex, but because I use the Linux kernel".


It only makes sense for them to go after companies who make money using Linux, at least in terms of practicality.
#2.14 CalumJR on 09 Mar 2009 - 04:38
toadeater said,
Then post more technical info instead of sensationalist stories.


If you don't like our reporting and think you know how we should write our articles then you are always welcome to write an article and submit it using the "Submit to Newsdesk" link at the top of the main page. Maybe check the comments you receive on that afterwards, too?

Also, to everyone, please read this - http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...#entry590680106 and this - http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...#entry590680228

Last edited by Calum on 09 Mar 2009 - 12:27
#2.15 vetJames7 on 09 Mar 2009 - 21:37
I don't see how this is sensationalist at all. I've tried to explain the issues at stake in as clear a way as I can. It is of course up to the courts to decide, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand what is going on.
(3 replies) #3 Sean2989 on 08 Mar 2009 - 05:36
Other than trying to drive the nail deeper into the coffin, I don't see what Microsoft stands to gain. Well, that's not true, but even though this is a bold move, I can't see this being enough to put an end to Linux. At most this will just be a slap in the face to Linux to remind them Microsoft is still in charge.
#3.1 vetJames7 on 08 Mar 2009 - 05:45
LOL yes, I agree. Microsoft have got a monopoly,, and that can't be denied. I'd go as far to say, though, that if this is the best Microsoft have got, Linux and open-source software can kick back and relax. For Microsoft, though, it's always about the PR effect. The only weapon they've got is generating "uneasiness" among their customers to keep them customers (the sort of "uneasiness" all of us non-lawyers would feel when confronted with legal rhetoric).

Legally, though, there are no worries for Linux. Time will tell, but I wager I'm right in putting my money on open source.

Thanks for actually reading that long article (it is way beyond the norm in length!).
#3.2 ricknl on 08 Mar 2009 - 16:16
Of course Microsoft does not have a monopoly in the market Linux is really in. Linux is at the moment about servers and Linux embedded devices, and believe me, on both sides they have a very very considerable anount of marketshare.

In the server business Linux should have a marketshare of around 20%.

People keep telling Microsoft is a monopoly as if they have successfully monopolized every market they are in.
#3.3 vetJames7 on 12 Mar 2009 - 04:36
Microsoft have been declared a "monopoly" by the American legal system. It is complicated, but being a "monopoly" means they can't operate as other businesses do. People act as if this legal status is somehow unjust (take it up with the American government) or does not apply in all situations (take it up with the American government). Microsoft know they are a "monopoly" and they know they have to operate according the laws that govern "monopolies". It is not a relative sort of thing. Being a "monopoly" is a legal designation which means you have got to play by different rules. Whether it's "right" or "wrong" is not an issue in legal terms. When I said Microsoft are a "monopoly", it is not my "opinion", it is a legal status.
(1 reply) #4 Quick Reply on 08 Mar 2009 - 05:59
"The long filename directory entries are configured to minimize compatibility problems with existing installed program bases."
Well they don't violate this patent because the long filename directory entries are configured to minimize compatibility problems with OTHER SYSTEMS, not for existing program bases.
#4.1 +Brandon Live on 08 Mar 2009 - 10:43
Other operating systems == existing program bases.
#5 eblkheart on 08 Mar 2009 - 06:01
[< snipped > - CalumJR] [Please post appropriately in future]

Until the day the lawsuit is actually in court and evidence (not speculation) being brought forward to a judge and jury and what the lawyers say on BOTH sides, I'll treat this article with a grain of salt.

Last edited by CalumJR on 08 Mar 2009 - 13:55
(2 replies) #6 Tikitiki on 08 Mar 2009 - 06:08
If this is indeed Microsoft's true stance then they can stick my $ up their rear ends from now.
#6.1 +TCLN Ryster on 08 Mar 2009 - 11:15
How mature of you.
#6.2 RAID 0 on 09 Mar 2009 - 02:22
Tikitiki said,
If this is indeed Microsoft's true stance then they can stick my $ up their rear ends from now.


...but you're still giving them money.
(2 replies) #7 ChrisJ1968 on 08 Mar 2009 - 07:01
what this "could be" is, an attempt to skirt the claim of the monopoly. MS has placed a claim on Linux, more like Tom-Tom on a copyright infringement. What this could in fact do, if successful is, Linux would be illegal in the US, I'm guessing this is the intent.

linux has been a thorn in MS side for years now. MS might be trying to lock out linux to keep themselves the monopoly. MS really isn't relevent anymore as it had been. I remember back in the 80's-90's that MS was always talking about increasing technology and always developing technologies. MS might have a huge desktop market but, they haven't come out with the technologies that swept the tech field off their feet.

I remember the deal MS made with Big Blue for DOS. MS made DOS, and the way my instructor put it, IBM never showed up. But MS went back, changed some coding so as to alleviate copyright infringement and viola!, MS-DOS.

I think MS is fighting for relevancy here. Doing this by sinking the competition and leaving MS the only player.

Just my guess with this whole MS stuff in the bigger picture. now, MS could push linux out(for the sake of argument) of the market and they wouldn't have to face any scrutiny for monopolistic practices since.

just my guess over the years
#7.1 Rolith on 08 Mar 2009 - 07:15
*sighs* seriously? Wow.

Microsoft went to IBM with an OS and said "We'll license this to you...as long as it's not exclusive." IBM literally said "There's no money in software, so sure!" thus MS-Dos was born.

So...Microsoft is a dominating monopoly able and important enough to strong arm someone out of a market that they have no major influence or power in, AND struggling for relevancy and clinging to straws?

Lets get started. If Successful, certain parts of Linux found to violate the patent would require re-structuring to not infringe upon what Microsoft at least has technical right to claim is theirs.

IF this lawsuit IS really about what the rumors and speculation is about (and not some very specific infraction of more "legitimate" claims).

and IF Microsoft showed it's willingness to go after "Linux" as a whole AFTER this lawsuit succeeds...if it does...

If the Linux community falls over and dies because of this ONE ruling and becomes "illegal" in the US because they can't NOT violate the Microsoft patent...

Well that won't happen. The open source community is stronger then that.

Not calling this article FUD or anything... this very well could be an attack on Linux (I don't agree but that's different.) but them tryng to outlaw linux in the US? HAHHAHAHAHA
#7.2 iamwhoiam on 08 Mar 2009 - 08:33
ChrisJ1968 said,
I remember the deal MS made with Big Blue for DOS. MS made DOS, and the way my instructor put it, IBM never showed up.

IBM was looking for an operating system for their line of personal computers they were bringing out. They went to several vendors, including Microsoft, more than once. All Microsoft had was BASIC at the time.

Microsoft bought 86-DOS, which was programmed by Tim Patterson, from Seattle Computer Products. It was pictched to IBM as a non-exclusive deal. IBM agreed and Microsoft made two versions. One for IBM computers (PC-DOS) and a generic version for clones (MS-DOS).

I think your "instructor" should learn a bit of the history of both Microsoft and IBM.
#8 xpablo on 08 Mar 2009 - 07:38
This is just a plain simple attack from Microsoft to bully another European company, If only Microsoft was as good at releasing operating systems that function properly as they do in litigation.
People think that Bill Gates was some kind of genius programmer and that's how he got to be so rich, in fact Mr Gates was a business and licening genius and this is how he got to be one of the richest men in the world, and you can clearly see that Microsoft is continuing to take after its founder.
(1 reply) #9 x9_ on 08 Mar 2009 - 07:51
Microsoft has every right to protect their intellectual property and patents - just like anyone else.

You may not like it, but that's how the law works.
#9.1 Rolith on 08 Mar 2009 - 08:03
Microsoft can't be hated for following the rules as they exist... I'm all for patent reform...but until it happens, you better believe I support people enforcing them,cause roles reversed? Microsoft would be up a creek.
#10 kheldorin on 08 Mar 2009 - 08:53
Isn't this just common practise? For example, look at the patents on video and image compression. If the local jurisdiction does not support the software patent, you're safe. If they do, you're not. The problem here is the law itself not MS. Why should MS be made the exception?
(1 reply) #11 McDave on 08 Mar 2009 - 09:33
Why are people annoyed at Microsoft it's not just them, Apple, Intel, nVidia, AMD etc etc are all taking each other to court to enforce their patents they hold.

Don't blame the player, blame the game.
#11.1 Ozood on 08 Mar 2009 - 15:44
Because they hate MS. It isnt that hard.

(6 replies) #12 tiagosilva29 on 08 Mar 2009 - 09:57
****ing FAT.
#12.1 vetmarkjensen on 08 Mar 2009 - 15:36
tiagosilva29 said,
****ing FAT.

And I see no reason that TomTom would even need to use FAT of any sort as their filesystem.

They run Linux. Have their filesystem all ext2 or 3. When connected to a Windows computer, the files are shared by SMB/CIFS, so the native filesystem on the TomTom would not be relevant. It's just another network "share".
#12.2 MrA on 08 Mar 2009 - 21:18
markjensen said,
And I see no reason that TomTom would even need to use FAT of any sort as their filesystem.

They run Linux. Have their filesystem all ext2 or 3. When connected to a Windows computer, the files are shared by SMB/CIFS, so the native filesystem on the TomTom would not be relevant. It's just another network "share".

They need FAT to interoperate with windows systems. Memory cards all use FAT, and devices that can act as mass storage also have to use FAT.
#12.3 vetmarkjensen on 08 Mar 2009 - 22:48
My TomTom uses just a USB connection for updating/sofware. There is no memory card or such type of media slot.

And you can present a CIFS connection for Windows compatibility without using a Windows type of filesystem.
#12.4 tiagosilva29 on 09 Mar 2009 - 00:02
markjensen said,
My TomTom uses just a USB connection for updating/sofware. There is no memory card or such type of media slot.

My mother's TomTom needs a memory card in order to work, I think.
#12.5 ichi on 09 Mar 2009 - 09:23
They should either go with the USB connection or provide an ext3 driver. And screw FAT.
#12.6 roadwarrior on 09 Mar 2009 - 14:44
MrA said,
They need FAT to interoperate with windows systems. Memory cards all use FAT, and devices that can act as mass storage also have to use FAT.


A memory card can be formatted with any system you want, they just usually come formatted as FAT or FAT32 for compatibility reasons. Mass storage devices are not limited to FAT either: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_mass_storage_device_class
#13 XerXis on 08 Mar 2009 - 11:37
good article, software patents should be outlawed

However, Poirot was not asexual, he definitely liked women of aristocracy :p
(1 reply) #14 Airlink on 08 Mar 2009 - 14:16
As soon as we started letting software be patterned for long-term periods, we chained our common intellectual/technological advancement down. And then Microsoft came along and bought it from us when we weren't looking.

Software patents should not last nearly as long as they currently do. Frankly the vast majority of MS-held patents (the active ones, not the patented-for-patent's-sake sit-on-a-shelf-and-collect-dust pattents) are so widely used now that it's against the public interest for them NOT to be public domain. If Microsoft had it's way, they would hold a patent on everything we use, including The Wheel. Instead they hold one on FAT-16, which is the file system equivalent of The Wheel. But fear not, they plan to patent a technology that allows wheels to spin, and then force everybody to use it.

#14.1 Rolith on 09 Mar 2009 - 03:26
yup...because innovators totally deserve to see thousands of hours of work DEVELOPING concepts to be stolen by everyone the instant anyone else finds out about it...

Patents PROTECT the CREATORS when handled right. (saying they stifle innovation is like saying seat belts choke drivers to death. Sure sometimes it happens, but that's not what they're designed for...and death is the OPPOSITE of the intended use.
(1 reply) #15 DSLJay on 08 Mar 2009 - 15:58
Isn't Linix free? Doesn't TomTom sell their GPS? I do not believe that MS will go after Linix. However, since TomTom earns money from the sale of their products that use other companies patents, they should pay to use the patents and if they refuse, they should stop using patents from other companies and develop their own.
#15.1 ricknl on 08 Mar 2009 - 16:17
This is more or less what Microsoft claims. They say to TomTom, other companies licensed these patents, so should they.
(2 replies) #16 ChrisJ1968 on 08 Mar 2009 - 16:19
But wait a minute... didn't MS recently come to an agreement with Novell a sort of partnership? If this is the case, what is the real motive if my comment above is wrong?

how do you sue an OS that no one really owns?
#16.1 Rolith on 08 Mar 2009 - 18:27
by suing people making money off of violating your patent...which Microsoft is doing.
#16.2 MioTheGreat on 08 Mar 2009 - 18:34
ChrisJ1968 said,
how do you sue an OS that no one really owns?


You sue the group that controls the particular feature that you feel is infringing on your patent.
(1 reply) #17 brianshapiro on 08 Mar 2009 - 19:45
Certain software patents should be acceptable and others shouldn't be, just like patents for physical things.

A file system with short and long names shouldn't be patentable, for instance, because anyone who made a file system that might have short names would want to transition it to a file system with long names, and Microsoft doesn't have a patent on file systems with long names. A file system with both short and long names is not an 'innovation', Microsoft was simply the first company to be able to patent it.

Added to that I don't think long names should be patentable because its too obvious an idea.

However, I believe XEROX should have been able to patent the Desktop metaphor if they wanted to when they invented it. Patenting mystery novels isn't equivalent in any way to software patents since patents apply to useful objects rather than objects of entertainment.

Last edited by brianshapiro on 08 Mar 2009 - 20:00
#17.1 brianshapiro on 08 Mar 2009 - 20:02
Or more specifically patents refer to mechanisms in useful products, and not simply general ideas.
(2 replies) #18 Bugballou on 08 Mar 2009 - 23:15
The dinosaur is suing, what else is new. They might get away with it in the States, but the Europeans don't play that way. What about China and India, the two most populous nations in the world...As for outlawing Linux, our government once tried to shut down the credit unions to kiss up to U.S. banks, look who is in trouble now. Got Root?
#18.1 RAID 0 on 09 Mar 2009 - 02:24
Bugballou said,
The dinosaur is suing, what else is new. They might get away with it in the States, but the Europeans don't play that way.


LOL. WOW. Are you that... never mind. I guess the EU never sues people, huh?
#18.2 ichi on 09 Mar 2009 - 09:16
RAID 0 said,
LOL. WOW. Are you that... never mind. I guess the EU never sues people, huh?


There are no software patents in the EU.
(3 replies) #19 toki on 09 Mar 2009 - 00:07
When food will be free,
When you dont need to pay the bills,
When you offer your services for free to the others,
When you work for free,
Then everybody will use Linux... OH WAIT, maybe Windows because will be free too!!! Haha..

Now come back on Earth.

I give all rights to MS to protect their business. Frankly, talking about Linux, i am pretty sure they are using lots of ideas from MS and SCO UNIX.

Peoples defend Linux because they think free software is better? So naive...
#19.1 vetmarkjensen on 09 Mar 2009 - 00:59
toki said,
... i am pretty sure they are using lots of ideas from MS and SCO UNIX.
...So naive...

Those two points of your post make an excellent example of irony!

Apparently, you haven't followed the SCO case versus Linux. At all.
#19.2 toki on 09 Mar 2009 - 01:18
markjensen said,
Apparently, you haven't followed the SCO case versus Linux. At all.


No, enlight me!

How about that? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO-Linux_controversies?

Since begin Linux "borrowed" some ideas from different other places. Seriously.. they did it every time. No need to answer how long will take until we gonna see.. Gnome Superbar, KDE Superbar.. and so on.. just an example.

Linux identity = copy more. and worst.
#19.3 Jugalator on 09 Mar 2009 - 08:26
toki, if SCO had any basis for their claims, they would not have had such trouble in court. Numerous independent software analysts did not find any copyright infringements in Linux source code, and this case was about copyright infringement, not patent infringement. You seem to confuse the two. SCO was alleging there were bits of SCO code in Linux.
(1 reply) #20 +zhiVago on 09 Mar 2009 - 02:19
I remember the first time I installed Windows 95OSR2 (the one that included FAT32 for the first time), it screwed up my dual-boot and lots of files.

Does anyone remember installing WIN95 from 3.5 floppy? there were like a dozen of them...
#20.1 roadwarrior on 09 Mar 2009 - 14:51
zhiVago said,
I remember the first time I installed Windows 95OSR2 (the one that included FAT32 for the first time), it screwed up my dual-boot and lots of files.

Does anyone remember installing WIN95 from 3.5 floppy? there were like a dozen of them...


Actually, for the RTM version of Win95, there were 13 floppies (or 18 if you could get ahold of the non-DMF formatted version). The later versions had even more.
(1 reply) #21 +majortom1981 on 09 Mar 2009 - 02:32
From what i understand its the specific utility that does it thats used on the gps devices. People like to bash microsoft without actually knowing any facts. The thing is with linux there are so many different variatioins of it that its likely that some of them violate the patents and others dont. You can stick up for certain distrobutions but you cant stick up for all of LINUX because each distro is different.

But with this patent i am pretty sure there is a specific utility that is being used that violates the patent.
Plus tom tom and microsoft where trying to come up with a solution before tom tom backed out and microsoft had to resort to suing.

Plus gpl 3 is horrible. Basicaly gpl 3 states if you really are breaking apatent you cant license it from the company how owns the patent.
#21.1 ichi on 09 Mar 2009 - 09:40
majortom1981 said,
Plus gpl 3 is horrible. Basicaly gpl 3 states if you really are breaking apatent you cant license it from the company how owns the patent.


It doesn't forbid licensing, just exclusive patent deals.
#22 Krosan on 09 Mar 2009 - 14:12
Good read!
(3 replies) #23 Magallanes on 09 Mar 2009 - 20:52
Patents are absolute, for example if Microsoft patent the concept "dolphin carrying laser and missiles", then "dolphin carrying laser only" is not part of the patent (patent void), or "dolphin carrying laser, missiles and lights" too is not part of the patent. A good (bad) lawyer can manage the case and decide that any dolphin carrying something is a Microsoft patent, but also a good lawyer can switch the case and decide that Microsoft have not right to any patent involving dolphin.

So, truly its pretty hard to obtain royalties using a patent.



#23.1 vetmarkjensen on 09 Mar 2009 - 23:01
Actually, in your example, the "dolphin carrying laser, missiles and lights" would violate the patent as it included "dolphin carrying laser and missiles".

However, if you substituted a maser (microwave-stimulated) versus a laser (light-stimulated), you would get the exact same result (a dolphin carrying a coherent light source and missiles) without infringing on the patent the clearly says the coherent light source must be a light-stimulated device.
#23.2 ichi on 10 Mar 2009 - 11:15
The patent would probably read close to "dolphin carrying stuff to do stuff" anyway, so you would have to use porpoises.
#23.3 Magallanes on 10 Mar 2009 - 12:20
ichi said,
The patent would probably read close to "dolphin carrying stuff to do stuff" anyway, so you would have to use porpoises.


In theory, you can't patent generic concept, you must be really specific when you want to patent something. Just check then:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=cLAkAAAAEBAJ&dq=5,579,517

The trouble is when a good lawyer can fool the court, putting a case when you own a global rights over a patent "dolphin™ and all derivated are patent of Microsoft Corp", when you clearly have not so wide rights.

For this reason many patents granted to Microsoft are valid only in USA (when you can patent almost anything if you have enough money to do it) but inadmissible outside USA
#24 boho on 10 Mar 2009 - 14:07
From what I read and understood about the dispute, it sounds to me like "Prior Art" Unix were doing most of these things long before Microsoft invented everything.

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