No Internet Explorer in Windows 7 version for Europe

Microsoft is planning on shipping a version of Windows 7 to Europe that will not include Internet Explorer. This is according to a confidential memo that was sent to PC makers and obtained by CNET. It is likely that Microsoft is reacting to the European Union concerns that by bundling Internet Explorer with Windows 7 it is being anti-competitive in the browser market.

Microsoft's lawyers responded by saying "Our decision to only offer IE separately from Windows 7 in Europe cannot, of course, preclude the possibility of alternative approaches emerging through Commission processes. Other alternatives have been raised in the Commission proceedings, including possible inclusion in Windows 7 of alternative browsers or a 'ballot screen' that would prompt users to choose from a specific set of Web browsers."

A ballot screen may look very similar to the one that is prompted when you install IE 8 where you are given the choice for your default search provider. If Microsoft were to take this route it would be a huge win for Mozilla, Opera, Google and Apple too. Imagine if Apple was able to get its Safari browser onto this ballot list and followed it up with several of their popular "PC vs. Mac" advertisements. Apple could gain a large portion of the browser market due to its large cash reserves and clever advertisements.

Microsoft has said that this announcement will only impact Windows 7 and that it will not be removing Internet Explorer from any of its previous Windows products, including the Virtual XP package for Windows 7. In addition, Microsoft is developing plans to make Internet Explorer easily available to those in the European market who choose to use it.

Internet Explorer once dominated but in the recent years has faced stiff competition from Google, Mozilla and Apple and has faced declining market share each year, for at least the last five years.

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Just pack in a crippled mini-IE... maybe IE3 or something similar. No plugins, minimal scripting, minimal OS integration, just enough browser to bootstrap you into choosing the browser you want, but nothing people can enjoy long-term.

What they need to remove is Windows Defender, I hated how in Vista it would always start up on logon even though it was stopped in msconfig and deleted through CCleaner. I finally stripped it out of my installation. Make it optional or as a part of the Live Essentials.

EU is all about someone else deciding what's good for you and making choices on your behalf. So, this incidence isn't very surprising.

My problem with all this:
-Those people who doesn't want IE would know how to find other browsers anyway.
-The people who would be most affected is the ones who is oblivious to the fact there more than 1 browser anyway.

Opera has a point as MS essentially it is taking all the casual customers. But the point is, these people won't even see significant difference between opera and everything else anyway. Is a waste of time for every day people who wants to able to use their laptop soon as they bought it. As if selecting and installing other components isn't stressful enough.

So how will those people get a browser I wonder?

Before someone says "Microsoft update" - I ask this - does that mean that Microsoft should also now host 3rd party browsers on MS Update, out of the goodness of their heart? And then be responsible for also hosting updated versions?

Whatever; epic fail.

If they ship a CHEAPER version of windows 7 without IE i go for it.

The Windows XP N initiative failed so hard because its basically selling you a stripdown OS and microsoft its trying to do it again, sell you at the same full price wont bring a difference, because in the end microsoft get money for IE from windows while the competition dont have that advantage.

things that must be done

1- Remove ie completely and not only the icons
2- Reduce the price of a unbundle version of windows
3- Charge or give ie for free for those who want ie later in those version of windows

eilegz said,
If they ship a CHEAPER version of windows 7 without IE i go for it.

The Windows XP N initiative failed so hard because its basically selling you a stripdown OS and microsoft its trying to do it again, sell you at the same full price wont bring a difference, because in the end microsoft get money for IE from windows while the competition dont have that advantage.

things that must be done

1- Remove ie completely and not only the icons
2- Reduce the price of a unbundle version of windows
3- Charge or give ie for free for those who want ie later in those version of windows


Why should Microsoft reduce the price of an unbundled version of Windows, if IE is ALREADY FREE, as well as Windows Media Player, etc. The EU is just bitching out of their asses, I bet if MS was a European company they could slip and slide around anything they did. Also, Anybody who gives a flying **** about what software is installed on their computers, go to the Uninstall Programs and remove it. I'm assuming the people that don't know how to uninstall programs are the only ones complaining.
Another thing, competition does not mean helping your competitors. If anybody knew anything about economics and running a business, then they would see this clearly. MS should not be FORCED to advertise for other software companies or companies at all in general. BTW IE Sucked up until IE8, and I used Firefox until then.

Another point: The EU isn't complaining about Apple bundling Safari with OS X. Why be biased? It could lead to this similar argument, but it doesn't.
Why should Apple FORCE users to use Safari? Its bundled with OS X, why not give Mac users a "choice" on what to use. Because its oh so hard to install software. (I use Firefox sometimes on my mac, because Safari crashes on some important website I use).

bolocks it needs to be a world wide event not just the EU how many of you use IE i know i dont and everyone i know who use a MS based pc don't either

MS cant ship a competitors browser with Windows as it opens up a huge can of
worms IMHO. If MS was to ship any of the popular browsers with windows then that would imply
that MS would be required to support those browsers.

Its not just a matter of bundling a browser with the OS. Doing so for a competitors product
opens up issues such as copyright, Support, Licensing Terms etc.

Look at it like this. Assume you get a new Ford car and that car has a stereo radio made by someone
else other than ford. Now after buying the car the stereo dies and no longer works. Do you take
your car to the manfacturer of the stereo radio to have it fixed or do you take it to your ford dealer ?

I think you get the point.

Thanx MaxMax


MaxMax said,
MS cant ship a competitors browser with Windows as it opens up a huge can of
worms IMHO. If MS was to ship any of the popular browsers with windows then that would imply
that MS would be required to support those browsers.

Its not just a matter of bundling a browser with the OS. Doing so for a competitors product
opens up issues such as copyright, Support, Licensing Terms etc.

Look at it like this. Assume you get a new Ford car and that car has a stereo radio made by someone
else other than ford. Now after buying the car the stereo dies and no longer works. Do you take
your car to the manfacturer of the stereo radio to have it fixed or do you take it to your ford dealer ?

I think you get the point.

Thanx MaxMax


Perfect explanation

Opera owns the market on Wii and PS3 browsers. I'm anxious to see how this will trickle down and give us console surfers more choice. I can't stand the Opera Wii browser.

GreyWolfSC said,
Opera owns the market on Wii and PS3 browsers. I'm anxious to see how this will trickle down and give us console surfers more choice. I can't stand the Opera Wii browser.

That will not change anything. People who want to install IE will install IE. People who want to install Firefox will install Firefox. Web developers like me who need to test on everything will install Opera (because let's be honest almost nobody use it except web developers for testing purpose).

The difference is everyone will need to install their favorite browser. IE wont come pre-installed with a link in the desktop.

That's what we call a fair competitive market. And i don't understamd why someone would be against it.

But i highly doubt it is going to help Opera getting more users.

IE 7 and IE 8 are far better than IE 6.

Back in the days of IE 6 it would have made a big difference but now IE stands up as a good browser.

Microsoft should leave the Internet Explorer links in tact and have them open a window that explains that the EU forced them to remove Internet Explorer from Windows. Period. European users will be on their own to obtain and install a browser and they can direct any frustration towards the EU.

My god.

You just wont quit ...

They just have to make IE install by running Windows Update. If you want to install IE 7 over Windows XP that's what you have to do anyway.

That's surely a lot of trouble to run windows update to install IE after a fresh install of Windows specially since the first thing you actually do is run windows update anyway after a fresh install.

The average user is gonna be really upset, cause I still know of alot of sites and plugins that people use quite often that dont work on firefox or the other browsers.. I feel bad for IE.. well anyways.. Lets start promoting FF so that we can kick Opera out of the market. I hate those cry babies..

dimithrak said,
The average user is gonna be really upset, cause I still know of alot of sites and plugins that people use quite often that dont work on firefox or the other browsers.. I feel bad for IE.. well anyways.. Lets start promoting FF so that we can kick Opera out of the market. I hate those cry babies..

Witch sites ???

I know 0 site that doesn't work under Firefox.

What I'd like to know is...

Will IE's dependent (bloat) DLL's etc still be there? If they gonna strip IE from the OS, they better strip all that junk too, not only the iexplore.exe file!

Frankenchrist said,
What I'd like to know is...

Will IE's dependent (bloat) DLL's etc still be there? If they gonna strip IE from the OS, they better strip all that junk too, not only the iexplore.exe file!


I'm more than happy for all of that to be left in, afterall I do want my programs to work.

I think its a good idea, all they have to do is put a download link or some sort of message to let the users know how they can get IE8, I used to hate IE, well i still hate IE6 but most people don't care about what browser they use. As long as the browser they include isn't bloated with proprietary html and is close to standard compliant who cares.

"In addition, Microsoft is developing plans to make Internet Explorer easily available to those in the European market who choose to use it."

what could be easer than going to windows update or the microsoft download site for IE or are they going to send a cd with IE8 on to every household in the European market ?

xSuRgEx said,
"In addition, Microsoft is developing plans to make Internet Explorer easily available to those in the European market who choose to use it."

what could be easer than going to windows update or the microsoft download site for IE or are they going to send a cd with IE8 on to every household in the European market ?


"microsoft download site", how are they going to do that without a browser?

My email to opera

Dear Opera,

I am quite frankly very disappointed in your company, to the point where I refuse to use, install and recommend Opera.
Why I hear you ask, well it has something to do with your little argument with IE. Quite frankly I have no respect for a company that runs of and complains to the EU like a little 5 year old on a playground who just had their teddy bear stolen.
Instead of trying to gain market share like those people at Mozilla or Apple or Google you instead resort to dirty tactics and get the EU to force them to push your POS browser.
Your company had a chance to gain market share a few years back when IE6 came out and was quite frankly worthless. That's when Firefox came out, they managed it, but it looks like your company screwed it and now whinges about it.
Heck even Google has managed to push their chrome browser out and even Netscape has managed it; they have a better market share than opera.
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0

There's a little thing called choice and quite frankly I don't want your company forcing another company, in this case Microsoft to limit my choices. That's what you're doing, forcing another company to make changes to their operating system to either have no browser or a ballot screen. Both of these will not work, because you can't have fair choice if there's a ballot screen. As to have full fair choice you would need to include EVERY BROWSER.
And don't even think of asking Microsoft to include your browser in their default install, as I really don't want any more crap added to my installs.

See the thing is with Windows 7 one can simply go into the control panel and remove internet explorer, again if I so wanted to I could download another browser.

Funny thing is whenever I go out and purchase any windows mobile phone, I am forced to use opera mobile browser which is set as my default browser, I have no direct choice there do I, sure IE is installed but I don't get a screen saying what browser do you want.

Just a quick thought:
Remember if Microsoft never invented Windows the chances are your company might have never of existed. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, even if it feeds you a small amount.

sorry but Opera explosed a legit claim.

The way that MS is taking it is up to MS, not Opera. Opera didn't ask for remove all browser or to force to install Opera by default, Opera asked for a fair treat.

Magallanes said,
sorry but Opera explosed a legit claim.

The way that MS is taking it is up to MS, not Opera. Opera didn't ask for remove all browser or to force to install Opera by default, Opera asked for a fair treat.

How is it legit? Now that there is a remedy Opera is admitting they can't even afford to distribute their browser via it.

Seriously get over it MS fans.

I'm 100% sure you never intended to use Opera anyway.

MS is a company. It's there to make money and do business. It's not your daughter or anything like that.

The claim is 100% legit i'm sorry to dissapoint you.

The fact that IE by default is installed in Windows and can't be un-installed while competition softwares like Opera and Firefox needs to be downloaded and installed from the competitor web site is not fair at all. It's not a practice that any country should accept specially since MS share of the OS market is close to 90%.

And why do you actually care so much ????

Wow you will have to run windows update now to install IE after a fresh windows installation. OMG like if you did not run windows update already after a fresh installation anyway.

BTW companies will still be able to make images with IE already installed.

For god sake some people here love MS so much it's beyond any understandment.

Tuna, your letter addresses the critical point here that others seem to miss. This isn't about loving Microsoft. This is about competing in the marketplace.

Opera would rather run the the EU with tears streaming down their face because big bad Microsoft has somehow stopped their product from selling or being adopted.

But wait.

In the exact same marketplace, Mozilla, Google, and even Apple have been successful in gaining browser share on PC's. They all did it without complaining to the EU. They all did it even though Windows ships with Windows Internet Explorer.

So if they can do it, what is Opera's problem? It's certainly not an anti-competitive marketplace, otherwise Mozilla, Google, and Apple wouldn't have a significant portion of the browser market.

C_Guy said,
Tuna, your letter addresses the critical point here that others seem to miss. This isn't about loving Microsoft. This is about competing in the marketplace.

That's exactly the point.

We are not missing anything you actually are. As usual when it's about MS you are completely blind.

Opera just ask for fair competition. That's all.

MS doens't have to promote IE. It comes pre-installed with a link to the desktop. Opera and Firefox both start with 2 strikes, 2 outs no runner on the base.

Making IE an optional install after the installation process of the OS even the competition.

I really don't understand why ANYONE is against that. The laws are there for a reason. It's sad that our gourvernements in NA don't care about applying them.

Yes Firefox has made a dent in IE marketshare. But considering how much IE 6 sucked (and please don't ridiculize yourself by saying otherwise) it's less than what it could have been.

LaP said,
Seriously get over it MS fans.

For god sake some people here love MS so much it's beyond any understandment.



From the sounds of it, you have so much MS hate it's, "beyond any understatement". What ever that means.

RAID 0 said,


From the sounds of it, you have so much MS hate it's, "beyond any understatement". What ever that means.


He actually said "beyond any understandment" not "beyond any understatement". Don't use quotation marks if you're not actually quoting him

Funny thing is whenever I go out and purchase any windows mobile phone, I am forced to use opera mobile browser which is set as my default browser, I have no direct choice there do I.

Im sorry but i now refuse to use Opera and refuse to recormend it.
*Walks off to run the purge script that removes it from 1000plus networked computers/laptops

Magallanes said,
ftp

Yea, tell that to the people who don't know (or care) what FTP or even Firefox is, who just want to turn on their computer and be able to surf the net.

Yeah, it's a shame theres no such thing as a shortcut that you can click on that will download a file via FTP which you can then run like any other download.

Oh wait....

I am ashamed to live in Europe when I heard the European Commission makes such idiotic rulings.

Without Windows, those browsers wouldn't even exist (of course there are other Operating Systems).

I think it's only fair, even if you have a so-called monopoly, that you can bundle your own software. I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to include your own products for your own OS.

What's next? Getting rid of Paint, Notepad, Wordpad, zip-compression,...

Jeffrey89 said,
I am ashamed to live in Europe when I heard the European Commission makes such idiotic rulings.

Without Windows, those browsers wouldn't even exist (of course there are other Operating Systems).

I think it's only fair, even if you have a so-called monopoly, that you can bundle your own software. I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to include your own products for your own OS.

What's next? Getting rid of Paint, Notepad, Wordpad, zip-compression,...

Believed me, the cyber space will be way better without iexplorer, not just because is a MS product but their insecurities, incompatibilities and several other problems.

There is no "idiotic ruling" in this case. Microsoft made the decision to remove IE, not the EU. The EU wanted Microsoft to include other browsers alongside IE, which would have been worse. After all, what browsers would you include? It would be equally unfair to only offer browsers from the "big 5", then all the smaller browsers out there would be unfairly disadvantaged.

TCLN Ryster said,
There is no "idiotic ruling" in this case. Microsoft made the decision to remove IE, not the EU. The EU wanted Microsoft to include other browsers alongside IE, which would have been worse. After all, what browsers would you include? It would be equally unfair to only offer browsers from the "big 5", then all the smaller browsers out there would be unfairly disadvantaged.

If car companies were forced to install their competitors' parts and features in a new car, would you back that too?

In the face of most people having a decent ADSL connection I don't even know why MS or any other software company still sells boxed versions in retail, they should just enable purchasing the OS or any other software through downloads .. oh they already do, so you can purchase whatever you need really, just go here: http://store.microsoft.com/home.aspx?WT.mc_id=wmplandingpage

In the end it doesn't matter if they sell OEMs a IE-less/WMP-less version of their OS, they will get paid either way and the OEM is the one who will have to provide more options for the customer by installing either different browsers or by giving a disc with different browsers.

The whole issue is a bit of frustrating because MS are being asked to change something which is their perfect right to include. If average Joe doesn't know about other browsers (quite difficult these days really!) then why bother offering them such browsers, isn't it the job of the OTHER browser manufacturers to advertise their software properly so that the average Joe knows about them? I hardly think it is an issue of monopoly, it is actually an issue of free advertising and free inclusion over the back of MS.

I'm so glad about this! Now, the 'average user' may finally hear about other browsers and hopefully Internet Explorer 7(-) can die sooner (versions below 8 are still widely used and a pain for web developers

Geez people this is not a big deal. Most people will get IE and WMP and laods of crapware when they buy their PCs with windows7 and nothing will change. Besides, I'm sure microsoft will make it easy to download any browser.

When Win95 was launched, it had an option for a customized install, where users could choose to INSTALL only the needed features, not the "Turn on/off windows components" thing we see these days.
I wonder what happened to that concept.....

Make IE,WMP, Paint,Calculator and all rest of components of Windows as part of Windows Live Essentials suite for future versions of Windows to avoid lawsuits and problems .

I hated IE until v8 which was somewhat trying to be equally good compared to his alternatives... but this is getting pathetic. MS can include whatever they want.. They give choice to whatever people can install and use, Its not like they forced you to use any components of their OS.

whatever, Norway and Switzerland are the only countries that are keeping a stand against the EU these days. And I'm proud to say I live in Norway. I'll be getting the complete package, so I can run IE out of the box...along side with my downloaded firefox

I want my copy of Windows 7 to include IE.. If I want to use another browser I'll go off and download it myself.. Plus isn't there already a feature in Windows 7 to remove IE if you want.

That's the most funniest part of not having IE in Windows 7. I think Microsoft should make use of IE in EU illegal and ban it completely then it should see whats the outcome of such decision. That too it shud be banned for Vista and 7.
So that would be more funny to hear. lol

Hmm. The part I find interesting is:
If theres NO IE shipped with Windows 7, and even IF there would be a Ballot-Screen the first time you connect to the Internet, whats with users without any internet-access?

Many Setup-CD's, Documentations,... use HTM/HTML Documents .
So theoretically, if no IE is included, theres nothing which would render these HTML files.

I think they would keep the trident engine (IE8's html rendering engine) intact in the OS so programs/apps can use it and leave Internet Explorer 8 itself (iexplorer.exe) out of the OS. Just like when you optionally remove IE8 from your Windows 7 installation, it still keeps the trident engine intact.

Kosh said,
Hmm. The part I find interesting is:
If theres NO IE shipped with Windows 7, and even IF there would be a Ballot-Screen the first time you connect to the Internet, whats with users without any internet-access?

Many Setup-CD's, Documentations,... use HTM/HTML Documents .
So theoretically, if no IE is included, theres nothing which would render these HTML files.

Same way as Adobe reader gets to those same people. People who wish to use such HTML guides will have to ship firefox or whatever with their product.

jimbo11883 said,
yes, it does require components that are part of IE.

Well those components will be left in it as it's a crtitcal part of windows explorer. it's the web browser Internet explorer itself which won't be installed.

Digix said,
This is how you download firefox with no internet explorer.

Open my computer

Or just select Firefox from the ballot screen presented.

Shunik Jan said,
Too bad Windows Command Prompt doesn't come with a wget like command at the very least in these rare situations.

It does, it's called FTP.exe but it's obviously a bit more lengthy process than wget. Obviously this is just a fictional account as you can't currently get IE from ftp.microsoft.com as far as I'm aware, but you get the point. This is all easily scriptable into a single "Get IE8!" file on the C drive that can even launch the msi after it's downloaded.

ftp ftp.microsoft.com
Username: Anonymous
Passwprd: email address
lcd c:downloads
get internet-explorer-8.msi

*turns on TV time machine*

"Hi, I'm a PC."
"And I'm a Mac."
"And I'm Sandy! I just want a computer that I can turn on and surf the web."
"She's all yours, Mac."

~.~

I think it's a good idea myself to ship Windows 7 without any browsers that also get installed via installation process.

I hope also they don't by default install windows defender.

All Microsoft need to do is have windows defender and IE in another folder on the installation disk or a seperate disk.

Or you can select if you wish to install it via the operating system installation.

No, Windows Defender has a right to be there. Any OS developer has the right to have security features that protect the OS from being infected by malware that would degrade the stability or performance of their OS.

This will not help any browser... There is nothing wrong with MS giving IE with Windows 7..

Its their product and they have every right to supply it with their product...

I have Windows XP and i use FF but i would still preffer to have IE there incase i need it.

Does this mean now MS can make an IE version for Macs then force it on ALL macs??

Its stupid IMO... If people dont like IE its simple... Download something you like then use that... No need making anything illigal or **** like that...

(quoted)
Opera Chief Technology Officer Hakon Wium Lie also objected to the fact Microsoft is only making the move in Europe.

"It's Europe only," he said. "We're looking for more than that. We want the whole world to have better access to better browsers." (quoted)


this guy is a joke... he want's microsoft to bundle HIS browser for ALL countries.

I think the EU should be stuck in a box and put on a shelf.


otherwise sell Win7 without IE or WE, make em download from another PC to install.

Believe it or not, Internet Explorer is not the only way of downloading data from the internet. Do a little bit of research before you post next time.

TCLN Ryster said,
Believe it or not, Internet Explorer is not the only way of downloading data from the internet. Do a little bit of research before you post next time.

No, it's not. For maybe 2% of Windows users. Now, how about the rest? You going to go to their homes and install a browser for them?

everyone should boycott opera.
i sent them an email telling them to grow a set of balls and to quit expecting microsoft to peddle they're stupid browser for them.

they won't be happy till they're browser is the ONLY one bundled.

crankenstein.exe said,
everyone should boycott opera.
i sent them an email telling them to grow a set of balls and to quit expecting microsoft to peddle they're stupid browser for them.

they won't be happy till they're browser is the ONLY one bundled.

Then you should also send an email to Google and Mozilla, since they agree with Opera.

crankenstein.exe said,
everyone should boycott opera.
i sent them an email telling them to grow a set of balls and to quit expecting microsoft to peddle they're stupid browser for them.

they won't be happy till they're browser is the ONLY one bundled.


too late. opera gained leading positions in eastern europe - russia, belarus, ukraine, kazakhstan, abkhazia and south ossetia.
http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-RU-dail...080701-20090611

but what is important in there is that it shows there is almost no dependency of browser popularity to preinstallation.

lack of popularity of live in western europe also shows there is no dependency between preinstalled browser and popularity of webservices provided by the same company.

so i see no any reasons of removing preinstalled IE...

Windows 8 will not feature calculator I suppose. And Windows 9 will come without graphical interface. Windows 10 will come without console. Windows 11 will come on a disc filled by zeros, as people have a right to choose a set of bites on their own, not only with official set of bites.

Yep, as we probably all knew, Opera just wants MS to advertise for them.

It would be funny if there was a ballot screen and Opera's marketshare was too low to be considered. IE, Firefox, Safari, and Chrome perhaps? (Maybe not Safari because it's got that annoying auto-update that downloads other stuff you don't want.)

Hey so I am working onbuilding my own browser, but o wait no one is using it. Let me see if Microsoft can get everyone to use it for me because their Internet Explorer is what everyone is using *sarcasm*

Thats what I see from Opera

Look, Yes Microsoft has a monopoly and its unfair, but that a freakin monopoly for ya. If Opera really wanted their stake in the browser market they would have made a push years ago when IE 6 had its problems or before. I really see no advantage at all for the end user to use Opera. The interface for IE is much easier. Opera needs to stop expecting Microsoft to kiss their ass and come up with a more innovative browser, something different that would make users want to switch. Im sorry but now it look like their whining.

This is Pathetic now, these companies need to grow up

I really think that Microsoft should just offer all the same versions minus both IE and WMP. Don't offer any version with them and ban the export of them to the area. That way, when they get enough complaints about it, they'll have no choice but to do something about it.

There definitely should not be any ballot screen. Do as their told and offer nothing. Put IE & WMP on disc and sell for an additional cost in store something equivalent to like $29US

dogmai79 said,
I really think that Microsoft should just offer all the same versions minus both IE and WMP. Don't offer any version with them and ban the export of them to the area. That way, when they get enough complaints about it, they'll have no choice but to do something about it.

There definitely should not be any ballot screen. Do as their told and offer nothing. Put IE & WMP on disc and sell for an additional cost in store something equivalent to like $29US


wtf, $29 for free software?

GraphiteCube said,
Stupid EU, shame on you. EU simply makes computer experience more and more complex.

Its not exactly complicated to click a shortcut on your desktop to install a browser.

Harbinger said,
Its not exactly complicated to click a shortcut on your desktop to install a browser.

How about those users who are on a connection that uses a browser based sign-on?

aww a ballot screen, was having evil thoughts about lusers having to open up a command prompt and use FTP to connect to the mozilla ftp site lawl.

im guessing an average consumer won't have the knowledge of why MS didn't include a web browser with their new systems or Windows 7, then will compare it to its competition (Apple) which does and will include a web browser. Meaning bad word-of-mouth for MS and good for Apple

I can see that happening. Too many people out there don't know anything about computers and will just go buy their first one to either no have it with their Windows system and get really ****ed and swear never to buy their product again or will be told in store about it and just buy a mac. Just wrong. Unfair advantage to mac here.

I hope we can rely on our smart American cousins to help us come up with a solution to this mind-bendingly difficult problem!

jmc777 said,
I hope we can rely on our smart American cousins to help us come up with a solution to this mind-bendingly difficult problem!

lol

So instead of just one browser pre-installed we can expect a crap load more bloat pre-installed on new systems...

I know many many PC users and not one of them hasn't at least heard of Firefox, which still--even with their market share--is called a niche/geeks browser. If people want to use Firefox, they will, I've even recommended it to many people over the years.

No one who uses the internet hasn't heard of Firefox from somewhere/someone. It's up to them if they want to install it or not.

Brower
Anti-Malware
Anti-Virus
Firewall
Media Player

All the above are, and should be no matter what, integral components of an operating system in this day and age.

(posted using latest pre-release Firefox 3.5)

this really is silly you dont see other firewall makers complaining that windows comes with a firewall preinstalled they just disable it

the title of this thread is misleading, they arent saying that IE wont be included in windows 7, they are saying there will be a seperate version with IE not included, like the XP N edition. Please change the title to "No Internet Explorer In Some Versions of Windows 7 for Europe" as the current title is misleading and scare mongering.

torrentthief said,
the title of this thread is misleading, they arent saying that IE wont be included in windows 7, they are saying there will be a seperate version with IE not included, like the XP N edition. Please change the title to "No Internet Explorer In Some Versions of Windows 7 for Europe" as the current title is misleading and scare mongering.

The cnet article and the Microsoft on the Issues blog say that it won't be included in any version of Windows 7 in Europe.

DonC said,
The cnet article and the Microsoft on the Issues blog say that it won't be included in any version of Windows 7 in Europe.

But not (at least very explicitly) in this article.

first of all EU is retarded as usual. Then, if they are asking MS to remove IE from Windows, they have to ask the same thing from all the other companies. Hey EU, there is a company called Apple. They have an operating system called OS X which is bundled with Safari. and then there is the open source OSs.
Well, probably it is a mistake to come up with a logical argument against a retarded union...that, probably, is why MS lost in the court!

Ahh, by the way, if there isn't any browser included how are you supposed to download the other browsers and install them in the first place?

Get your browser from another computer, download it into a portable media, bring it over and install. You (people in the EU) may have to do that for calc, notepad and Windows Explorer one day too, so do get familiar with this routine.

Why does everyone keep asking this as though using Internet Explorer is the only way to download data from the Internet?

Theres FTP, Windows Update or even a custom Browser Chooser app to name but a few.

TCLN Ryster said,
Why does everyone keep asking this as though using Internet Explorer is the only way to download data from the Internet?

Theres FTP, Windows Update or even a custom Browser Chooser app to name but a few.

Quite simple. What is this site? One for the tech savvy I imagine. Now I guess you would agree that quite a few people already is voicing their concern in the matter. Now imagine your average man or woman, who only wants a computer to browse the web and do a little word processing.

You could argue there is all these instructions on how to do install all the stuff, but it is still an annoyance. And the worst part of all, these people won't be able to tell a difference between IE and FF and Chrome other than it look slightly different.

I'm certainly no Microsoft fan, but what's the big deal about including a browser with the OS? Just because it is there, doesn't mean you have to use it. They removed the requirement to use IE for Windows Update, didn't they?

Let me start by saying that I personally disagree with this and the EU (as an organisation) should just die. Now that that's out of the way...

The point of the EUs case is that the vast majority of people who buy a Windows PC are not going care what browser they use, they'll just use what's there and lets them go to ebay, facebook, pr0nking.com, etc. The majority of users will just continue happily using IE because it was there.

The fact that nearly all PCs sold to consumers come with Windows, gives Microsoft an unfair advantage in the Browser space over the other Browsers. Take IE out of the initial build and users then have to make a choice about which browser they want. Even if most of the users won't have a clue about which to pick, they'll end up picking randomly. This will give each browser an equal chance of getting onto that user's PC.

why should microsoft have to build a product to encourage not only their competition's products, but the competition's products whoes companeis were big enough jackasses to take them to court over something this stupid? I hope this works like Live Essentials, where it's a shortcut on the desktop and downloads latest version.... Look maw, no pre-inclusion, and hey, microsoft isn't stopping you from not installing IE, and installing other products instead!

That's what i'd do, just toss no IE and WMP together in a special EU only version of Win7 and see if it sells, the Vista N versions don't sell at all from what's been said, so that whole case was pointless.

Why give the other browsers the joy of adding in a ballot screen? Let them pay OEMs if they want their browser pre-installed on Windows.

No. This whole song and dance is about giving the choice to the consumer. If the OEM is all of a sudden going to install their choice of browser and not the consumer's, that just brings the problem back full circle.

Vykranth said,
Great job from the EU commision: removing a core feature of an OS: that really helps the customers .... /sarcasm

This was MS's choice, not the EU commission's.

Nope this is in accordance to EU commission's recommendation that Windows ship without IE installed. It is either this or they ship with multiple browsers pre-installed.

So here's what will happen. Those big browsers (FF, Opera etc) will be happy but then a new lawsuit will come from small browsers like Maxthon etc that most likely won't be included.

Unless the so called "ballot screen" will contain every single browser available out there. Good luck with that.

Harbinger said,
So here's what will happen. Those big browsers (FF, Opera etc) will be happy but then a new lawsuit will come from small browsers like Maxthon etc that most likely won't be included.

Unless the so called "ballot screen" will contain every single browser available out there. Good luck with that.

I hope that whoever (Microsoft?) gets to decide which browsers are on the ballot screen that Opera will be too insignificant to be on it.

  • Internet Explorer
  • Firefox
  • Safari


Job done.

DonC said,

I hope that whoever (Microsoft?) gets to decide which browsers are on the ballot screen that Opera will be too insignificant to be on it.

  • Internet Explorer
  • Firefox
  • Safari


Job done.

I'd say IE, Firefox, and Chrome. :P

Kirkburn said,
Why?

Because all of this complaining about IE comes from Opera. There's a reason their market share is so low. But instead of doing their job to get more people using it, all they do is complain and say they can't compete. Make better software and more will use it.

iamwhoiam said,
Because all of this complaining about IE comes from Opera. There's a reason their market share is so low. But instead of doing their job to get more people using it, all they do is complain and say they can't compete. Make better software and more will use it.

opera is such a terrible browser to..dysfunctional on SO many sites, even on facebook ive seen it messing up..and the hacks theyve put into their code to make it work with google..definately not worth shipping with an OS
then theres chrome..rushed outta beta with no features
only IE and firefox are decent browsers, safari 4.0 is garbage its just as useless as chrome is atm

the EU really needs to back off and let MS ship its product as it wishes, if ppl want choices there linux and MacOS

iamwhoiam said,
Because all of this complaining about IE comes from Opera. There's a reason their market share is so low. But instead of doing their job to get more people using it, all they do is complain and say they can't compete. Make better software and more will use it.

Yes, the reason is that there is no fair market for browsers, because MS does bundling...oh, what does that mean? My head hurts?

cakesy said,
Yes, the reason is that there is no fair market for browsers, because MS does bundling...oh, what does that mean? My head hurts?


yes MS bundles IE, Apple bundles Safari, and most linux distros bundle firefox, the only difference is the MS have a monoploy (which isnt their fault)

cakesy said,
Yes, the reason is that there is no fair market for browsers, because MS does bundling...oh, what does that mean? My head hurts?

When you're using Windows, does anything stop you or prevent from downloading and using Chrome, FF, Safari, Opera, or the any other browser? I didn't think so.

If a company makes a good product, people will use it. If a company doesn't make a good product, people will not use it. The market share of Opera speaks volumes. When they charged for the browser, hardly anyone bought it. When they gave the browser away for FREE, again, hardly anyone bought it.

Companies these days don't want to spend money on R&D. They want to complain to the courts and have everything handed to them. Those types of companies (Opera,Symantec) need to be put of the misery of the computing public.

I'd rather just simply have IE in Windows. I don't want to be ****ing around trying to download a browser after everything is installed.

testman said,
I'd rather just simply have IE in Windows. I don't want to be ****ing around trying to download a browser after everything is installed.

So after you install windows is that it? you have everything you need or ever need? You don't need a development environment? You don't need and other software? You don't even need office?

Well, for the rest of us, non-liars, we already have to install a pile of software, so this is just one more

And it's hardly going to be traumatic if IE (and maybe other browsers) will be offered by Windows update once you connect to the net, as the current speculation goes.

So rather than plonking the installer of your browser of choice onto some kind of removable storage, or spending a couple of minutes downloading IE via Windows Update once you have 7 installed, you're going to get a Windows 7 DVD shipped from the USA?! Wtf my Egyptian friend?!

jmc777 said,
So rather than plonking the installer of your browser of choice onto some kind of removable storage, or spending a couple of minutes downloading IE via Windows Update once you have 7 installed, you're going to get a Windows 7 DVD shipped from the USA?! Wtf my Egyptian friend?!


this way the sales from the EU version will be lower and will help prove a point.

So is this version of Windows 7 to be the only one sold in Europe, or will MS offer two versions like it does with the Windows Media Player-less 'N' version?

This is stupid to be revising this problem again. You see advertisements for other browsers everywhere so people know there are browsers in the interwebs. I download Google Chrome and Firefox when I start a fresh copy of Windows. Its easy people!

Does this mean when i get Windows 7 OEM i will have to install IE8 before i can do anything, that sucks. Im getting really annoyed with the EU atm.

They just seem to be trying to protect (failing?) european companies which cant compete. Opera wont gain out of this

Lloyd Sparkes said,
Does this mean when i get Windows 7 OEM i will have to install IE8 before i can do anything, that sucks. Im getting really annoyed with the EU atm.


Most OEM's will choose to have IE8 installed as its convienient for the customer, and they will probably (because they're OEM's) bundle other browser(s) preinstalled.

That's just what we need, OEM's to add in more things, like trial software isn't enough.

I say MS add this to the N versions they sell already that don't have WMP, and sell both. End of story.

SaucE said,
So when does Apple have to stop bundling Safari in OS X?


When they have the monopoly position in the marketplace, and have been convicted of abusing that monopoly to push their own non-standard standards.

Chrono951 said,
Technically, doesn't Apple have a monopoly in their own market? I mean, I can't buy a MacBook and install only Windows on it.

No, because Apple doesn't "own" a particular market. They compete with Microsoft in the same market.

In the European Union there are very strict rules for companies that have a large market share. They are subject to more restrictions than the rest

roadwarrior said,
When they have the monopoly position in the marketplace, and have been convicted of abusing that monopoly to push their own non-standard standards.

So MS is being punished for being successful? Once MS loses most of their market share then they'll be allowed to bundle IE back? so basically this is just a move to make MS lose market share? if company A makes a product that sells way better than company B's, should company A's product be downgraded it because they're doing good...

Leolo said,
No, because Apple doesn't "own" a particular market. They compete with Microsoft in the same market.

In the European Union there are very strict rules for companies that have a large market share. They are subject to more restrictions than the rest

Apple is not in competing with MS in the same market until I can go and buy a boxed copy of OSX and install it on hardware of *my* choosing without jumping through hoops or modifying anything.

helios01 said,
So MS is being punished for being successful? Once MS loses most of their market share then they'll be allowed to bundle IE back? so basically this is just a move to make MS lose market share? if company A makes a product that sells way better than company B's, should company A's product be downgraded it because they're doing good...

Yup, that is how it works in the EU it seems. Quite retarted.

Key rule to success in the EU is: Don't get too successful; try to stay in the background and whine as much as possible on those obviosly more successful than yourself.

cakesy said,
No genius, MS is being punished for abusing their monopoly position. I understand that this is such a complex thing for so many people, but there it is. MS broke the law, so they have to pay the price. They will pay a fine, and on top of that, they have to stop breaking the law.

Just because you don't think the law is fair, or are to ignorant to try to understand it, doesn't change the fact that it is the law, in most countries around the world.

Just because it's law doesn't mean it's right either. It's illegal to do so many things that really shouldn't be.

MS has done nothing wrong. They hold a monopoly because no one else had the balls to attempt the things they did. When MS sees an opportunity it grasps it. The government didn't fine MS because they have a monopoly. The government fined MS because they saw a cash cow.

Spirit Dave said,
MS has done nothing wrong. They hold a monopoly because no one else had the balls to attempt the things they did.


Wrong. They pressured OEMs to only install Windows on their machines, and also pressured them to NOT install other browsers and media players. Perhaps you should read up on the history of the case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Unio...ompetition_case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_lit...on#Governmental

helios01 said,
So MS is being punished for being successful? Once MS loses most of their market share then they'll be allowed to bundle IE back? so basically this is just a move to make MS lose market share? if company A makes a product that sells way better than company B's, should company A's product be downgraded it because they're doing good...

It's called socialism. Get used to it, the USA has voted in its first socialist president and he continues to move us in the same direction. Get ready EU here we come!

nbtc971 said,
It's called socialism. Get used to it, the USA has voted in its first socialist president and he continues to move us in the same direction. Get ready EU here we come!


We are sorry we elected Bush, but his reign is over. He may have taken us closer to socialism by entangling government in so many private businesses, but his reign is over, just let it go.

nbtc971 said,
It's called socialism. Get used to it, the USA has voted in its first socialist president and he continues to move us in the same direction. Get ready EU here we come!

Dictionary. You. Get together.

This is stupid to be revising this problem again. You see advertisements for other browsers everywhere so people know there are browsers in the interwebs. I download Google Chrome and Firefox when I start a fresh copy of Windows. Its easy people!

Sean2989 said,
This is stupid to be revising this problem again. You see advertisements for other browsers everywhere so people know there are browsers in the interwebs. I download Google Chrome and Firefox when I start a fresh copy of Windows. Its easy people!

Do you use FTP for that? If not, you've missed the point here.

I remember when they sold browsers in the store IE and Netscape boxed products (I really hope it wont lead to that again)

I remember that. Up till Netscape starting giving it away for free, you had to pay. May be we should go back to when browsers were purchased. I bet everyone's attitude will change quickly.

ccoltmanm said,
I really don't get it. People choose to buy Windows 7, therefore MS should be able to put anything they want in it.

People choose to buy it?! No, it comes preloaded on their PCs! Choice would mean people could still choose XP. Where our choice to preload XP instead of Vista?

toadeater said,
People choose to buy it?! No, it comes preloaded on their PCs! Choice would mean people could still choose XP. Where our choice to preload XP instead of Vista?

Choice means being able to choose other brands. Not old software from the same developer.

(e.g. choice doesn't mean being able to demand Toyota makes models from the 1990s)

(snipped) People rarely buy Windows, around 5% of windows revenue comes from people actually buying it. They do buy computers, which Microsoft FORCES companies to pay for, whether people use it or not. But don't let the facts get in the way, you might actually change your mind that way.

cakesy said,
(snipped) People rarely buy Windows, around 5% of windows revenue comes from people actually buying it. They do buy computers, which Microsoft FORCES companies to pay for, whether people use it or not. But don't let the facts get in the way, you might actually change your mind that way.


Microsoft "forces" computer companies to pay for Windows? By "force" do you mean if they want to sell it on their machines? Just like Intel "forces" them to pay for CPUs instead of getting them for free?

Or do you mean that Microsoft somehow "forces" companies to sell Windows computers? Last I checked, Microsoft wasn't forcing Apple to sell Windows on their PCs. Nobody is forced to do anything. OEMs sell Windows computers because that's what their customers want.

toadeater said,
People choose to buy it?! No, it comes preloaded on their PCs! Choice would mean people could still choose XP. Where our choice to preload XP instead of Vista?


Well I have always chosen Windows and it has never come pre-loaded. You specify the OS that you want. Anyway what is wrong with Windows? It works, the world is still here, what do you want.....

MioTheGreat said,
No one bought the N versions of XP or Vista in Europe.

Why would this be any different?


Because there are no non-E versions available in Europe.

ironsight2000 said,
this will kill microsoft

the versions sold in europe in the boxes are the E one even if the box doesnt say anything?

Anyway, most people dont buy windows, they buy the PCs it comes with. And those have IE, WMP, and everything. So this is no big deal

Please Microsoft. Just ship Win7 without ANY browser and see how popular that is. This EU anti-competive crap is really stupid.

I believe MS's plan is to see how the people in the EU react to this announcement, and possibly asking the EU to have their IE rights back.

Ignorance is a bliss

Why not d/l with Windows update ? why not have an api or on the setup giving a choice ?

Are you guys that young that cant remember simple tools we used to retrieve software without a browser ?


as stated on the news

A ballot screen may look very similar to the one that is prompted when you install IE 8 where you are given the choice for your default search provider. If Microsoft were to take this route it would be a huge win for Mozilla, Opera, Google and Apple too.

simple solution , and yes i do not use IE in ages , no i dont hate it simply i prefer Firefox , easier for me and less clustered

Because It's ****ing hard for the average user, that's why.

The average user wants everything set up before they turn on the machine.

They'll just have this like the version without media player. Sell one without WMP and IE and one with them both, side by side, and see what sells and what OEM's go for.

Simple. And as we all know so far, the N versions of Windows just don't sell at all.

Shunik Jan said,
How will people download other browsers without a browser in the first place?

They could still have the installation file on the media and just not have it installed by default.

Victor V. said,
Because It's ****ing hard for the average user, that's why.

It's hard because MS makes it hard. MS could easily add software repository support to Windows so that you don't need a browser to install software. You would also be protected from viruses since software in the repositories can be trusted (if you don't add some shady ones). There can be an official MS repository for the clueless lemmings, and a catalog of trusted third party repositories for those using third party software.

y_notm said,
GP007 - no, there will be NO versions of Windows 7 with IE shipped to Europe. None. Nadda. No IE for EU.


OEMs can still install IE if they want to.

PaulDr said,
+ 1 I hope they ship it with nothing so the EU gets the blunt end of some ****ed off customers.

I would tend to agree with and support that.

I live in germany, but i think when i buy Windows 7 i will take the US version, since it is not crippled I think the EU department is just dumb. Why this dumb stuff? If you want to use another browser: Use IE and download Mozilla or Opera. I always have Opera, Chrome, Firefox and IE installed and use them on daily basis (all four).

my 2 cent.

y_notm said,
GP007 - no, there will be NO versions of Windows 7 with IE shipped to Europe. None. Nadda. No IE for EU.

you forgot zilch

PaulDr said,
+ 1 I hope they ship it with nothing so the EU gets the blunt end of some ****ed off customers.


That is exactly what happened with the N Editions; apparently the EU didn't learn from that.

Remember, a bureaucracy is even slower and more ponderous than an elephant, and with a far smaller brain; therefore, it takes far greater pain to get its attention. (That is far from EU-specific; it's just that larger bureaucracies, like those of the EU, the US, and the PRC take longer to say "Ouch!" than those of, for example, Australia.)

And by the way, I am *not* Australian, but an American (and actually used to work in ours).

Akaruz said,
Ignorance is a bliss

Why not d/l with Windows update ? why not have an api or on the setup giving a choice ?

Are you guys that young that cant remember simple tools we used to retrieve software without a browser ?


as stated on the news

simple solution , and yes i do not use IE in ages , no i dont hate it simply i prefer Firefox , easier for me and less clustered

Even though I agree with you opposition, I don't get which browsers will be selected to push on this ballot screen...

Akaruz said,
blah blah blah



simple solution , and yes i do not use IE in ages , no i dont hate it simply i prefer Firefox , easier for me and less clustered


how would you know what IE is like if you haven't used it in ages?

IE8 is actually a very good browser, i actually like it.

I hope MS's decision to not ship ie in 7 ****es alot of people off, and leaves them "high and dry".
EU is like the whiney little brother, always crying and complaining that life isn't fair. it's not, deal with it or don't buy it.

Nice that so many people here are willing to spite ordinary computer users in Europe because they don't like the EU. As for these ordinary users giving the EU any grief, I certainly wouldn't know how that would happen, anyone else have any ideas? And I mean in specific terms.
And I thought nothing had been confirmed yet in terms of what Europe is getting/will get, just that Microsoft is planning for an eventuality of the EU's forthcoming decision. Which will have to include an easy method for users to get their browser of choice, if they do decide that IE should not be bundled. Perhaps the EU has learnt from Windows N, so maybe they won't allow Microsoft to release a version in Europe with IE.

there are so many, so bizarre opinions here (and in any other site too)...

Let's separate the points and make them clearer:

1) First: one thing is the EU bullying, but besides that, MS has taken a decidedly bad decision for themselves. How are the average mamma and joe gonna browse the internet or get a browser after this when they get Windows 7? Oh gosh... problems ahead!

2) Now, the right way to think this matter is: "what would the 'most adequate' or 'less damaging' solution be?" This is a matter where probably no solution would be a perfect %100 convenient one that would please everyone. So, again, the point is MAKING THE USER CONSCIOUS OF CHOICE and GIVING HIM THE POSSIBILITY OF CHOICE. After choosing, he can disable IE if he likes.

-Couldn't MS then make a simple disclaimer telling the user that he is not enclosed to IE and free to choose among other alternatives if he decides he is not happy with IE?-

That's the point of it. Letting the user know that he's not enclosed to IE and he can choose any other thing if he pleases. This would also save MS from to getting in the muddy waters of making themselves a decision for what alteratives the user can get. It's simply up to the user to get into that matter if he minds to.