When Palm announced that the Pre would sync with iTunes by spoofing its identity it was only a matter of time until Apple stopped this practice. With the latest iTunes update 8.2.1 syncing with the Pre no longer functions according to Businessweek.com.It should not come as a surprise that Apple stopped supporting the device as it only wants authentic iPods and iPhones to be able to use their software. Palm did post a statement saying "Palm's media sync works with iTunes 8.2. If Apple chooses to disable media sync in iTunes, it will be a direct blow to their users who will be deprived of a seamless synchronization experience. However, people will have options. They can stay with the iTunes version that works to sync their music on their Pre, they can transfer the music via USB, and there are other third-party applications we can consider".
Apple responded to the Palm's comment by stating that "iTunes 8.2.1 is a free software update that provides a number of important bug fixes," says Apple spokeswoman Natalie Kerris. "It also disables devices falsely pretending to be iPods, including the Palm Pre. As we've said before, newer versions of Apple's iTunes software may no longer provide syncing functionality with unsupported digital media players".
What Palm does from here will be an interesting move. Will they admit defeat and no longer say that the Pre can be used with iTunes or will Palm take the low road and continue to look for alternative ways to get iTunes to recognize the Pre?
Unfortunately in this situation it's only the consumer who, again, is being put as a second class citizen by not being able to use the software of their choosing. This is not limited to Apple software as iPod users who would like to use the Zune software are also unable to do so.
Clearly identical issue. How could I have been so blind.
Clearly identical issue. How could I have been so blind.
You didn't finish reading his comment did you?
"(that is if they had the dominant market Apple does in the portable music player area)"
Does Microsoft allow the iPod to sync with Windows Media Player or the Zune software? How is that any different?
Does Microsoft control and dominate the MP3 player market? Nope. Apples is being anticompetitive and should be punished for it just as Microsoft is in the OS market.
+1
Apple has a monopoly when it comes to portable media players and it's online music store. That's no different than saying MS has one with Windows even if both monopolies are virtual ones they are still the same. Or is MS once again getting hit with a double standard?
Clearly identical issue. How could I have been so blind.
There is no software because clearly Windows is the best platform to develop for.
Clearly identical issue. How could I have been so blind.
So all the different versions of linux BSD and other OS's out there don't exist in your world I take it? Also all the different browsers, word editors and so on don't exist either?
Because some apps maybe windows only should be a given since that's where you as a dev have the best chance to make money.
What about all those apps on the Apple store that are just for IiPods and iPhones? Isn't that the same thing?
So no, there is no difference.
I thought that didn't happen because of an Apple restriction, not a Microsoft restriction so I don't think your point stands. I'm sure WMP would sync with iPods if the iPods themselves allowed it.
It's Apple who chose to encrypt iPod and not Microsoft. Next time, try to think.
+1
]
Agree with you 100% on that.
*wishes someone does something about it*
Clearly identical issue. How could I have been so blind.
And there are how many different operating systems out there? How many different web browsers? I fail to see your point.. people scream because they can't fully interpo with windows because its "dominant" (over 50% of the market) well same thing applies here, iTunes and iPod dominate the market and people are complaining they cant interpo with it also
Well that's lovely, interestingly enough I can name vast amount of software that exists merely for Windows, has no alternatives and your only choice is to buy Windows in that case - emulators won't do it. Even if you run it in a VM, you're still forced to buy Windows - at least if you want to play it legally like some of us do.
It does? Here in Jolly Old Europe, we have dozens of different music stores.
Here, let me twist this from wire to you, not that you will care about it all as you're adamant on your monopoly claims:
1. I can buy all the music you can buy from iTunes from other digital music stores (and hey, sometimes they're even cheaper)
2. I can play all the music in the world and all the music I buy from those stores on hundreds of different mp3 players, including my cellphone, my car stereo and so forth and exchange them freely.
Apple doesn't even have dominant market share - there's absolutely NOTHING they can do to force me to buy one of their MP3 players or from their store: they don't have any movies or music there that I can't buy elsewhere.
So according to you, I should not be able to buy music and play it on my Creative, because of Apple. Bull-and-****.
It does? Here in Jolly Old Europe, we have dozens of different music stores.
Here, let me twist this from wire to you, not that you will care about it all as you're adamant on your monopoly claims:
1. I can buy all the music you can buy from iTunes from other digital music stores (and hey, sometimes they're even cheaper)
2. I can play all the music in the world and all the music I buy from those stores on hundreds of different mp3 players, including my cellphone, my car stereo and so forth and exchange them freely.
Apple doesn't even have dominant market share - there's absolutely NOTHING they can do to force me to buy one of their MP3 players or from their store: they don't have any movies or music there that I can't buy elsewhere.
So according to you, I should not be able to buy music and play it on my Creative, because of Apple. Bull-and-****.
They don't force you to buy an ipod, they force you to use that POS called iTunes to sync it with.
Locking out the Pre just shows that Apple have a monopoly over what syncs with iTunes. Apple also have over 70% of the PMP market so, yes, they do have a monopoly and should face the same legal actions as Microsoft.
To the average consumer MP3 player = ipod.
Let me ask you something, how many people do you see each day with a PMP other than the iPod, and no, phones don't count?
Does the Zune work any different? As far as I understand Microsoft forces you to use that POS called Zune Marketplace just the same. Next to that can I use the Zune Marketplace to sync with other devices out of the box?
Last edited by .Neo on 16 Jul 2009 - 15:27
Locking out the Pre just shows that Apple have a monopoly over what syncs with iTunes. Apple also have over 70% of the PMP market so, yes, they do have a monopoly and should face the same legal actions as Microsoft.
To the average consumer MP3 player = ipod.
Let me ask you something, how many people do you see each day with a PMP other than the iPod, and no, phones don't count?
I've sold maybe 1 generic brand MP3 player to 5 iPods. No Zunes yet
Here we get into the fun of the monopoly market, MS was a monopoly they were fined / sanctioned... Apple didn't have to follow the same rules and did the same stuff basically because they didnt have a big market share... now Apple has a 70%+ market share but MS doesnt... same rules should apply again right? Apple should be a monopoloy but MS shouldnt so MS can do what they want while Apple has to face rules? only fair right?
Who forces you to use iTunes? Me? Apple? Microsoft? Jesus? Certainly no one.
If, and ONLY if, you could not buy certain music from other stores would Apple have a monopoly on the product - a more precise comparison to Microsoft would be if you could only play a certain song on an Apple device, no other device in the world could play that song. Then you would have a monopoly.
Your average consumer is most likely a little different than our average consumer then because if I walk to to an electronics store here - the first thing is they'll start offering me some cheapo MP3 player from Taiwan instead of an iPod.
If I were to take people at work as an example, I can only name a few people who have an iPod, the rest have iRivers, Creatives, some cheapo Chinese MP3 players and various other devices and I know of only 1 person in our entire corporate entity that owns an iPhone, everyone else uses Nokia or Samsung.
You'd think so, but alas, it seems some only think it's fair if MS is the one doing the "wrong thing".
I don't see how Apple has a monopoly in the market purely based on the fact the iPod is the post popular portable media player. Unlike the OS market - which at home and in the office only has two real players, with Windows clearly still the most dominant one - the media player market still offers more than enough diversity. I agree with daPhoenix that there isn't anything out there really forcing you to use an iPod + iTunes beyond personal preference. Music from the iTunes Store works on pretty much every device out there. With Windows it's IMO a very different story because the real choice people have in that department is fairly limited.
The Zune + Zune Marketplace offers the exact same limitations as iPod + iTunes.
Last edited by .Neo on 16 Jul 2009 - 16:15
Who forces you to use Windows software?
There are always alternatives. You can program software for other OSs yourself, or get someone else to do it.
The Zune + Zune Marketplace offers the exact same limitations as iPod + iTunes.
The fact most PC's sell with windows preloaded doesn't mean you don't have choice yourself. Why is it that loads of netbooks are shipping with linux now? MS doesn't have a true monopoly in any sense, it's a virtual one brought about by their market share.
Apple has the same sorta thing going on with the iPod, it's got a huge chunk of media player market share and uses that to push iTunes and their music store.
I live in the EU as well, and sure there are other media stores to use, but they're all or most of them are, drm infested crap that I'd never touch.
Also protected AAC audio off of iTunes doesn't work with anything but an iPod.
And you are forced to use iTunes at least once to setup your iPod. Thus you have to install it regardless.
It does? Here in Jolly Old Europe, we have dozens of different music stores.
Here, let me twist this from wire to you, not that you will care about it all as you're adamant on your monopoly claims:
1. I can buy all the music you can buy from iTunes from other digital music stores (and hey, sometimes they're even cheaper)
2. I can play all the music in the world and all the music I buy from those stores on hundreds of different mp3 players, including my cellphone, my car stereo and so forth and exchange them freely.
Apple doesn't even have dominant market share - there's absolutely NOTHING they can do to force me to buy one of their MP3 players or from their store: they don't have any movies or music there that I can't buy elsewhere.
So according to you, I should not be able to buy music and play it on my Creative, because of Apple. Bull-and-****.
So start naming them please, i'd be very very interested in what your list is made up of. I and others who've used linux before can find and use many alternatives to windows apps.
And since you seem to think MS has this all controlling dominace over the PC industry how the hell is it that I can even get and use linux in the first place? How is it we have FF and Chrome? How is it loads of netbooks ship with linux and not windows? MS has a monopoly right? If this was a true monopoly there would be ZERO choice right? But there is. I'll be waiting for that list of apps btw.
+1
not the point here... geez..
In most cases I don't have a real choice because I'm not presented with another choice than to purchase a PC preloaded with Windows. How many vendors actually offer their desktops and notebooks with Linux preinstalled? Some do but not too many. Next tot that Linux isn't a real option for most people because popular software requires either Windows or Mac OS X.
From what I know the entire iTunes Store is DRM free now. So you can upgrade those older songs and they will work with every device out there.
Basically the same story applies to the Zune and the Zune Marketplace software.
I have to say though it's a bit of a grey area and it's hard to determine when a computer company actually becomes a monopoly.
No, the Zune doesn't work any differently, however, you are forgetting one thing, the Zune doesn't have a hold on over 70% of the market like the iPod.
My point is that when you hold that much of the market then the platform should be opened up to other devices.
Exactly my point when I say, to the average consumer MP3 player = ipod.
Since Microsoft is considered a monopoly in the desktop OS space and has to follow rules that Apple doesn't, then yes, Apple should have to follow certain rules and guidelines in the PMP market that Microsoft shouldn't have to.
Fair is fair no matter how you look at it.
My point is that when you hold that much of the market then the platform should be opened up to other devices.
I'm not forgetting anything. I'm simply pointing out that Microsoft does the exact same thing as Apple. The only difference is that their Zune isn't picking up as much of the market as the company would like it to.
Apple already put in effort to make their iTunes Store DRM-free so the content you purchase can be played on other devices beyond their own iPod. I see no reason why they should open up the Library managing features as well, especially on the Windows platform where every computer ships with Windows Media Player pre-installed.
Microsoft doesn't disallow it... If you can get your device to sync with WMP, they aren't going to release an update just to foil your attempt...
Apple has a monopoly when it comes to portable media players and it's online music store. That's no different than saying MS has one with Windows even if both monopolies are virtual ones they are still the same. Or is MS once again getting hit with a double standard?
Yep. and Apple is taking advantage of that monopoly. I'm surprised the government hasn't slapped them yet...
Yes, actually they do. MS allows any company to sync their potable media player with WMP. Apple chooses not to add this support to the iPod. However, just about every device on the planet that isn't an iPod will sync with WMP, not just Zunes.
Actually you can't use Windows Media Player to sync with your Zune... Not out of the box anyway. You'll need the Zune Marketplace software for that.
Fair is fair no matter how you look at it.
No, this is not the way it works. Apple had a monopoly (amazing that you accept that ), but they haven't broken any rules. Apple aren't paying anyone to stop selling Zunes, as Microsoft used to do with their OS. Once they start breaking the laws, then they should get punished.
Now, there are plenty of other ways to get music on your ipod without itunes. So what exactly are you complaining about??
There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a monopoly, as long as you DON'T BREAK THE LAW. Microsoft broke the law, many times.
Saying that, what has happened to Microsoft since they have been convicted of breaking the law....NOTHING in the US. I takes Europe and other countries to actually do something, the US HAS DONE NOTHING AGAINST MICROSOFT.
Wow, it is like talking to children here.
There are always alternatives. You can program software for other OSs yourself, or get someone else to do it.
Exactly. Someone made the choice. Either you chose to become reliant on Windows applications or you choose to work for a company that in turn chose to become reliant on MS technologies.
No one is FORCED to use windows, they do so by choice. Citing past times such as gaming is a pretty poor arguement since you can game in other ways and for most other tasks there are some sort of alternative to windows. Where there isn't an alternative you went into that field knowing that from day one anyway so the choice was still made.
Now, there are plenty of other ways to get music on your ipod without itunes. So what exactly are you complaining about??
Not complaining mate. Just pointing out the double standards. Apple is being monopolistic and anticompetitive when it comes to the iPod and iTunes. If one company has to follow certain rules and regulations concerning monopolistic and anticompetitive practices then other that participate in the same actions should have to follow the rules.
If this had been Microsoft doing this everyone would be screaming for blood. Apple does it and it seems that it's ok.
Why oh why do I install iTunes in Windows and have the bloated Quicktime installed as well without asking me if I want it another media player??
Also why quicktime redirects media extensions to it without asking me if I want it to do so?
Sorry but I love my iPhone, the best phone in the market to me, but things like above really angry's me a lot on Apple behavior..
Why oh why do I install iTunes in Windows and have the bloated Quicktime installed as well without asking me if I want it another media player??
Also why quicktime redirects media extensions to it without asking me if I want it to do so?
Sorry but I love my iPhone, the best phone in the market to me, but things like above really angry's me a lot on Apple behavior..
iTunes needs QuickTime installed for it to work. QuickTime is the backend of Tunes.
Erm, because iTunes uses Quicktime to actually play the music and videos perhaps?
Why oh why do I install iTunes in Windows and have the bloated Quicktime installed as well without asking me if I want it another media player??
Also why quicktime redirects media extensions to it without asking me if I want it to do so?
Sorry but I love my iPhone, the best phone in the market to me, but things like above really angry's me a lot on Apple behavior..
iTunes needs QuickTime installed for it to work. QuickTime is the backend of Tunes.
Then why didn't they include the whole Safari instead of just using webkit with iTunes?
Xero with all due respect ( love xpize ), why are you so aggressive defending apple on this matter?
You do realize that Windows Media player does also opens mp3 and videos right?
And that I may not need to open videos or mp3 on iTunes, just sync contacts and apps?
It provides an interface to your library, stores and keeps records of playlists, playcount etc.. in a database. QT plays the video but it doesn't manage the media.
Wrong guy, that's XPero
LOL, my bad :p
Yeh basically this. It shouldnt need quicktime, GUI and all, to accomplish playback.
That said, on the other hand who really cares? Just remove the shortcuts and pretend it isn't there. I'm sure it won't kill too many people sitting there in the program files directory.
Last edited by Deihmos on 16 Jul 2009 - 13:53
The fact that it still can't monitor folders and that it has to IMPORT EVERY SONG is rediculous. That's just terrible software at it's best.
As a side note, isn't it interesting that Mac OSX, which is supposedly better at media and creative stuff, is significantly slower at running the Adobe suite when compared to Windows?
I have NO respect for people who let popularity influence their opinion on hardware.
This is why I hope the Zune HD makes it out over here, the software seems to be much lighter on resources that that POS iTunes.
This is why I hope the Zune HD makes it out over here, the software seems to be much lighter on resources that that POS iTunes.
Yet, Zune is just as restrictive
Why is it that when a company does something wrong, we get Oh No they are a Monopoly, etc. However, when the company does something wrong but your a user of the companies products they arent being given a chance. For once can we take the i use them or I'm are better than yours or mine are bigger than yours out and please look things thru something more than the "keyhole" everyone seems to use.
But it doesn't make it any less pathetic.
Why didnt Palm sync media with Windows media player and needed iTunes? If they needed iTunes for reason X then why did they not follow the legal route?
iTunes is not a monopoly! there a lots of media players and music distribution systems out there. iTunes is simply the most effective! Certainly any media device would want to sync with iTunes, do it legally then no using hacks. If Apple does not allow it legally and its a monopoly then take them to court!
Hahahahaha, that just made my day...
So, therefore Windows isn't a Monopoly as there are lots of other OSs out there (ie the various Linux variants)
A monopoly isn't when there's only one item available. It's when one item has a significant lead in the market (which, like it or not, Apple has with the iPod & iTMS & iTunes)
Yeah right
I don't think there is a legal why for device manufacturers to have there devices synch with iTunes. Apple wouldn't allow it.
LOL like windows is not a monopoly, there are lots of different OS's out there....
Wait... What??? There are hordes of music stores and media managers out there that do their job a lot better than iTunes!
A monopoly isn't when there's only one item available. It's when one item has a significant lead in the market (which, like it or not, Apple has with the iPod & iTMS & iTunes)
Yeah right
I don't think there is a legal why for device manufacturers to have there devices synch with iTunes. Apple wouldn't allow it.
Windows is FAR from the only OS out there, even for portable computers; in addition to netbooks and notebooks shipping with Linux, there are notebooks and laptops (from Toshiba) shipping with OpenSolaris (in other words, UNIX) instead of either Windows OR Linux. (And Toshiba isn't exactly Brand X.)
A lot of people do like itunes, and it does make it very easy to buy a track. Personally, I dislike itunes as well as microsoft media player (after 6.4).
And because the Palm Pre is a device that could directly compete with the iPhone, people will think that buying an iPhone is a waste when a better phone that syncs with iTunes is actually a more sensible choice.
Bad Apple! Bad!
Makes me want to grab Steve Job by the shirt and slap him around some.
In this market I'd choose the iPhone or iPod, with something like Songbird and maybe use a selection of stores.
A shame Apple doesn't want the same thing.
To be fair though, neither does Microsoft.
In this market I'd choose the iPhone or iPod, with something like Songbird and maybe use a selection of stores.
A shame Apple doesn't want the same thing.
Why would you chose the player that (proven) has the worst sound quality? You don't have to be an audiophile to figure that out if you listen to a handful of different players.
Then again, I see people listening to 128kbps cbrs mp3's using the hideous headphones they got with their ipods.
Yeah, overprices ipods, not like the zune which is.... exactly the same storage for exactly the same price. Good point, well made.
With many more features for the same price.
iTunes exists to sell more hardware, i.e. iPods. The store is a cherry on the top for itunes using people, but at the end of the day, apple makes the most money when people purchase the hardware i.e. iphone and ipods.
I don't understand why Palm didn't use a open source player like songbird, improve the code and give that away with the pre. Perhaps even work with amazon to provide a portal to the amazon.com mp3 store and a mechanism to purchase music directly a la iTunes. They would have generated good will in the open source world, whilst having a solid player of their own which they could extend in any way they wanted. It was incredibly silly of Palm to sell a product feature on a hack that could be (and has been) closed at any time.
For Apple hardware there are also the 1.5 billion apps that have been downloaded, not sure what ercentage are aid apps but don't Apple get a straight 50% on all those.
For Apple hardware there are also the 1.5 billion apps that have been downloaded, not sure what ercentage are aid apps but don't Apple get a straight 50% on all those.
No, they get 30%. Don't just make things up because they fit what image you prefer. It would have taken all 15 seconds of Googling to find this out.
http://www.google.ca/search?q=Apple+App+st...lient=firefox-a
Doesn't alter the fact that iTunes/App Store does make a fair amount of money for Apple, not that there's anything wrong with that. People estimate that the app store alone may may $100 million/year and, apparently, in 2007-8 iTunes made just under $600 million. Neither figure is my idea of not much!
iTunes is pretty much the defacto standard. As is the iPod. Kinda hard to beat at this point. I do not blame Palm for trying to tie into their service.
+10
Compare it to the MS situation where they got riled for integrating IE into Windows. This was seen to be anti-competitive, if we accept the EU's warped sense of humour. However it's important to note that MS never prevented other vendors from installing their browsers and inter-operating with Windows, unlike what Apple is seemingly doing here.
If you equate iTunes to the Windows of the online music store world, then this is a whole new degree of anti-competitive behaviour where deliberate action and monopolistic power is being used to prevent other vendors from competing and inter-operating with the iTunes online media store.
You speak the truth.
That's how a free market works.
Actually, microsoft does not 'lock' the zune marketplace to only work with the zune, the DRM files can go on any "Plays 4 Sure" enabled device by means of Windows Media Player. Also, there hasn't been any 'hacks' to enable other 3rd party players to work with the zune marketplace and, in turn, no anti-hacks from microsoft.
Until someone makes a 'spoof' program that links 3rd party players with the Zune Software and Microsoft 'disables' this spoof, its an apples verses oranges debate. Heck, has microsoft disabled the plugins for media player that enable ipod syncing with windows media player? Nope.
I don't recall a third-party hacking their own support for their player to the Zune software, and then Microsoft intentionally releasing an update to block it. Until that happens, your argument doesn't hold any water.
The DMCA is ruining the software market, mark my words, if palm tries this again, apple will lash back using this BS piece of legislation.
- iTunes, just like many applications, has a list of supported devices for syncing. The Pre is not on that list
- iTunes, as a media player, does not hold any kind of monopoly. There are countless other choices, some may even be better.
- iTunes, along with the iTMS, does not hold any kind of monopoly in the music market. There are many other ways to purchase music, both offline and online.
Monopolies (for those who don't know) only exist in markets, not in a subset/niche of a market.
I can replace iTunes with Windows. Would your argument still hold water?
I can replace iTunes with Windows. Would your argument still hold water?
Put some sense into what you wrote and then I'll reply better.
Like you said, it has to do (and a lot) with market share and 9 out of 10 PC's run Windows. When you have that kind of market share you also carry a lot of responsibility because every little change you do changes the whole market.
The disappearance of iTunes or the iPod wouldn't deprive you or anyone from listening to/acquiring music.
This isn't about both the iPod and iTunes, this is just about iTunes. If iTunes disappeared, it would have an effect on 70% of the pmp market, not including iPhone users. None of them would be able to sync their media to their device. And you would not be able to get to the iTunes Store without iTunes, so yes, acquiring would be more difficult. I know you can rip CDs, but how can they be synced without iTunes? I'm talking official methods, not unofficial like the Winamp plugin.
Because you own a Palm Pre?
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