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Is Microsoft the juggernaut of yore?

Brad Sams   on 02 October 2009 - 14:14 · 110 comments & 9826 views

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If you were to ask the average citizen to describe Microsoft they would probably tell you that they are a mega corporation whose main product is Windows. Depending on their age they may also describe the company as one that has a monopoly on many software genres and is anti-competitive.

During the '90s and even in to the early 2000s Microsoft dominated the home computer landscape. The typical user wrote their documents in Microsoft Office, on top of a Windows XP platform while browsing in IE 6. They were so dominant, in fact, that they were ruled as being anti-competitive in Europe in 2004.

In 2000, Microsoft had a market share of about 87% and today this figure remains unchanged. They grew leaps and bounds in the '90s over their competitors who were falling behind, IBM, Apple and other variations of Linux and UNIX made up a small percentage. Today, though, they have stagnated to the same level as 2000 of about 87.75%. While the number is impressive, it is one of the few areas that Microsoft has remained competitive other than its Office product division.

Microsoft's first major public form of competition was the browser war against Netscape. Netscape was offering up a competing product to Microsoft's Internet Explorer: both products were designed for browsing the Internet. Microsoft eventually dominated the competition because it was able to offer a free product bundled with its operating system while Netscape tried to get users to pay for its product.

After this, Microsoft gained the reputation of being the industry juggernaut and rightfully so; they deserved that title. They controlled the majority of the market with regards to the home PC operating system, web browser, and office products.

But, as time has moved on, is Microsoft still the de facto player it built itself up to be? Microsoft seems to have lost some of its stature of producing the de facto products or always being the market leader in whatever products they sold.

When Firefox launched September of 2002 it was a little known browser taking on the giant Internet Explorer 6. By May 1st of 2004 it had barely 1% of the market share while IE had 95%. It was a true story of David vs. Goliath.

What happened in the following years is nothing short of spectacular for the underdog browser. Mozilla (the company behind Firefox) never gave up on their product. After many years of being defeated ruthlessly by Microsoft they went on a campaign to take back the market. Mozilla received a dedicated following and actively pursued IE. By March of 2009 they had clawed their way up to a very respectable 18% of the market. The reason? Microsoft fell asleep between the development of IE 6 and IE 7; they had presumed that IE 6 was all that the consumer ever needed. They believed this so much in fact that they stopped working on the standalone browser.

In the void left by Microsoft's slovenly development of IE, Firefox took up the competition and forced the company back into the browser wars. Today Microsoft is fighting against Firefox, Safari, Chrome and Opera to keep their market share. But it seems Microsoft may have more to learn as its newest browser IE 8 fails to include support for web standards such as HTML 5.

Did Microsoft become lazy? In a sense, yes they did. When they slacked off in the browser area Firefox came in and re-lit their fire. But this was not limited to just the browser market. Microsoft's slack attitude actually held back adoption of web standards and the progression of the web. That's to say, their behavior had a wider impact than just setting them behind the competition, because of just how huge their market share was. Even today web developers still have to decide if they want to code support for IE 6; major websites like Digg and YouTube have publicly said they will no longer support IE 6.

Windows Vista is a black mark on the company's face that they wish to get removed. After years of delays and unfilled promises they released an operating system that felt as if it was undercooked and only slightly satisfied the consumers' needs. Apple, seeing this, embarked on an advertising campaign that will go down as one of the most recognizable in the history of TV advertisements. The famous Mac vs. PC advertisements hit hard against Microsoft as Apple took Vista's shortcoming and moved in much like Firefox did with IE.

In December of 2008 Apple posted its biggest gains in two years, taking 8.9% of the market share, growing 0.66% in a two year period. Microsoft in that same month dropped below 90%, dropping 0.84, its largest drop in two years. While Microsoft still has a commanding lead, Apple has found ways to dig into Microsoft's dominant market and is slowly eroding its market share and reputation with its successful advertisements.

While the browser wars and the OS wars have seemed to have only given Microsoft a slight setback there are a few other areas where they have failed to live up to their stigma of dominating any market in which they sell software.

Windows Mobile has been a disaster for Microsoft. While promising to deliver the home OS experience on a cell phone it has done nothing but tarnish the company's reputation. Most recently Steve Balmer, Microsoft CEO, admitted that they "screwed up". For the entire year of 2008 Microsoft's Windows Mobile was sold on a little more 16 million devices, while Symbian sold 72.9 Million units and RIM sold 23 million units. Microsoft was able to move a decent amount of handsets but they are far from the leader of the market. They were also beaten in market growth with Apple leading at 245%, RIM at 96.7% and Palm grew at 42.2%; Microsoft only grew 12% and was beaten by the category "Other OSs". Microsoft has a long way to go in the Mobile market as Apple has proved to be a fierce competitor in growth and customer satisfaction; JD Power and Associates ranked Apple users as the most satisfied among mobile operating systems.

Most notably the largest shortcoming that Microsoft has failed to capitalize on is online search. When Google arrived with its "do no evil" tag line it was a direct attack at Microsoft. Microsoft was not only found sleeping but it was also playing catch-up to Google, something it was not used to doing. Google has dominated the search market and Microsoft has found itself running in circles trying to catch-up to a market it once controlled.

When Google launched its email service offering virtually unlimited storage Microsoft was dead in the water. Their offer, Hotmail, only offered a paltry 5MB and lost customers to Gmail in a record fashion. Microsoft tried to reinvent itself with its Live branding and search but ultimately came up short in yet another area; although its newest search engine, Bing, has been making strides in helping Microsoft gain some credibility in the online search market.

As the home PC is moving closer to "cloud computing",this is having all your information stored on a remote server, Google is again a step ahead of Microsoft. Google launched "Google Docs", these are programs that work in the cloud and compete directly against Microsoft Office, and the big difference is that Google Docs is free. While not as robust as the offline version of Office, it does offer a way to side step purchasing the Office package and using an online free variant. Microsoft felt so threatened by this that they have gone and started testing their own online version of Office as well.

Microsoft has also found out that just because they put their name on a product that it does not means guaranteed success. The Zune, for example, launched and instantly become the laughing stock of the industry. It did very little to even nudge away any of Apple's market share. Microsoft latest earning reports for Q2 show that there was a 42% drop on the non-gaming side of Microsoft's Entertainment and Devices unit, which includes the Zune. A second effort is underway though by Microsoft with the Zune HD.

Is Microsoft today the same Microsoft of the '90s? While they did fall asleep and release a line of lackluster products that ultimately hurt their image, they still continue to hold strong in the operating system market share and their office product suite. But the question is, is the damage done, have consumers gotten the message that there is an alternative out there to Microsoft? The answer is yes; the competitors in the field took advantage of Microsoft's laziness and have made a mark for their names. Will Microsoft rebound with the launch of Bing and Windows 7? It's likely to a degree but with Google launching a new OS soon, Apple spearheading advertisements, and software moving to the cloud, the biggest question is if and how Microsoft will adapt.

Special thanks to Rob for his contributions

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(8 replies) #1 artfuldodga on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:27
awesome, flamebait
i suggest author use his 'talents' in a more useful manner
Google, do no evil... thats laughable today
#1.1 andrewbares on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:14
I was thinking the same thing...Just tempting people to argue, isn't it?
#1.2 cakesy on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:20
artfuldodga said,
awesome, flamebait
i suggest author use his 'talents' in a more useful manner
Google, do no evil... thats laughable today

Your comment is flamebait.

As much as may like to disagree, this description is very accurate and very true. There are certain people here who, for some reason, really love Microsoft, and can't accept that they have ever done any wrong. They are no different to Apple lovers, which I don't see so much any more. It seems they have been replaced by softies.

#1.3 Lord Ba'al on 03 Oct 2009 - 02:53
cakesy said,
As much as may like to disagree, this description is very accurate and very true.

Yes, the article is straight to the point.

However, I noticed a typo in paragraph 8:
"What happened in the following years... By March of 2009..."

The year 2009 is obviously wrong. First, Firefox already has a much bigger share than 18% now in 2009*, and second, it goes on to retell how MS slacked between IE6 and 7, which was already many years ago.

* Current market share of Firefox (all versions) is 46.6%: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
#1.4 wakers01 on 03 Oct 2009 - 05:01
artfuldodga said,
awesome, flamebait
i suggest author use his 'talents' in a more useful manner
Google, do no evil... thats laughable today


Right. Anyone who thinks Google is all sharing and fuzzy should type "google will" into their search engine and check the suggestions that pop up.
#1.5 cakesy on 03 Oct 2009 - 06:48
Lord Ba'al said,
Yes, the article is straight to the point.

However, I noticed a typo in paragraph 8:
"What happened in the following years... By March of 2009..."

The year 2009 is obviously wrong. First, Firefox already has a much bigger share than 18% now in 2009*, and second, it goes on to retell how MS slacked between IE6 and 7, which was already many years ago.

* Current market share of Firefox (all versions) is 46.6%: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

I wish that was true, but that site is a specialty site, and doesn't reflect real market presence across the web. That is a web development site, so you would expect people using it to be smarter that your average person, and more willing to try different browsers, rather than the one that came with their OS.

The true stats are hard to get, but it is probably around 33%, depending on where you go.
#1.6 /- Razorfold on 03 Oct 2009 - 07:15
#1.7 Calum on 03 Oct 2009 - 08:14
How is the article flame-bait? It is an opinion piece - somebody's opinion and their take on the issue of whether Microsoft is as much of a giant as it used to be. Did you read the article? Or, did you happen to notice the big "Editorial" banner at the top? This is coming from somebody who is both a moderator and who loves Microsoft (me) - this is not flame-bait.
#1.8 Magallanes on 05 Oct 2009 - 12:30
Calum said,
How is the article flame-bait? It is an opinion piece - somebody's opinion and their take on the issue of whether Microsoft is as much of a giant as it used to be. Did you read the article? Or, did you happen to notice the big "Editorial" banner at the top? This is coming from somebody who is both a moderator and who loves Microsoft (me) - this is not flame-bait.


I don't known but may be (just may be) to write a opinion that can be resumed as "Microsoft vs firefox" and "Microsoft vs apple" can be a bit inflammable.
#2 meriam on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:27
Interesting rambling. digg'ed
#3 +ZX2 on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:30
MS needs to get on the ball and merge the Xbox, Zune, WMP and WinMobile technologies. that will create a lot of interoperability in their apps and marketplace, with familiar interfaces for mobile and multimedia.

Win7, and office 2007/10 are large steps in the right direction. So are the Live downloads.
#4 Ambroos on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:32
Interesting article. They're now doing some great catching up with the other companies, with Win7, IE8, new Live services, ... All it needs is better integration and just that little something that makes people use their products. I can understand Google's popularity though. They use open standards or the most widespread methods, instead of developing their own proprietary stuff for everything, and they offer top service for free!

The internet is getting tough for every player and they'll have to innovate continuously without it becoming annoying (and Google is managing it so far).
#5 Digix on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:37
Quite honestly, imo.. in many way they're spreading or already spread themselves too thin in general which is causing the lack of leaps, bounds or strides forward in IT innovation in general, more like taking steps (they are like a power walker in a marathon, they can go the same distance just have trouble keeping up with everything going on around them). Apple in comparison has a broad yet easy vision drive and focus across their products, as much as i dislike them you have to give that to them.
(7 replies) #6 Jugalator on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:42
Wow, wall of text. I wonder how many will flame here without reading more than the first few paragraphs.

I own a Mac personally, but I'm not ignorant despite that and do believe that Microsoft has done some major moves in the right direction lately. NOT really with the Windows Live services which I think are no less fragmented than Google's services and frequently come off as having a lack of vision to me (MS use to kill off or merge Live services without warning too, so I'm always a bit reluctant to using the more niched ones), BUT with Windows 7 (the direct opposite -- it feels coherent and well engineered), and also Office 2007, and even Internet Explorer 8, although in the case of IE, it has so insane amounts of standards to catch up on that it's still not quite there.
#6.1 WatchTheSoup on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:48
Standards are bull****, only fanatics with no sense of reality keep pushing it.
#6.2 RealFduch on 02 Oct 2009 - 15:55
WatchTheSoup said,
Standards are bull****, only fanatics with no sense of reality keep pushing it.

Jagulator's line about standards is really not true (IE8 supports all major !current! !standards!), but you, WatchTheSoup, shpouldn't behave just like the fanatics that you despise.
#6.3 LaP on 02 Oct 2009 - 16:12
WatchTheSoup said,
Standards are bull****, only fanatics with no sense of reality keep pushing it.


rofl i guess you never did any web development in your life.

Standards are VERY important for developpers.
#6.4 +Kirkburn on 02 Oct 2009 - 16:18
WatchTheSoup said,
Standards are bull****, only fanatics with no sense of reality keep pushing it.

That's a hell of statement.
#6.5 hotdog963al on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:32
WatchTheSoup said,
Standards are bull****, only fanatics with no sense of reality keep pushing it.

Wrong, just wrong. I sincerely hope you are not a web developer.
#6.6 carmatic on 03 Oct 2009 - 05:41
WatchTheSoup said,
Standards are bull****, only fanatics with no sense of reality keep pushing it.

hmm, do you work for microsoft? particularly one of the R&D people working on the next piece of proprietary tech?
#6.7 Calum on 03 Oct 2009 - 08:12
WatchTheSoup, as a web developer/designer, I can confirm that standards do not suck! Would you like to have to code 3 or 4 different versions of your website if you were a developer? That's what would happen if standards were abolished. As it happens we are close to only having to code one version of our website (as soon as Microsoft start supporting more CSS3 elements, we will be able to make our websites look the same in any browser).
(7 replies) #7 neodorian on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:47
I feel like a lot of their image problems come from corporate/institutional IT policies. My Windows experience at home is excellent. All well-maintained Vista and 7 machines on good hardware and no crapware. Contrast this with work where a cheap IT department refuses to upgrade from 6+ year old machines running XP and bogged down with heavy applications like Symantec. Using work PCs is so obnoxious that I've taken to bringing my own laptop and keeping it my desk so I can get work done in a more efficient and pleasant manner.
#7.1 toadeater on 02 Oct 2009 - 22:27
neodorian said,
IT department refuses to upgrade from 6+ year old machines running XP and bogged down with heavy applications like Symantec.


There is also the argument that a well-designed operating system wouldn't need a mess like Symantec, or wouldn't get bogged down after long-term use. Windows doesn't clean up its junk, and I think you are well aware of all the registry cleaners and fixers that are needed out there. It's not solely Microsoft's fault, but Microsoft has done nothing to discourage developers from abusing the registry. Practically every company out there leaves garbage behind in the registry, and sometimes even as running services, even after you uninstall their app, so eventually your Windows installation becomes "bloated" or unstable.
#7.2 cakesy on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:22
neodorian said,
I feel like a lot of their image problems come from corporate/institutional IT policies. My Windows experience at home is excellent. All well-maintained Vista and 7 machines on good hardware and no crapware. Contrast this with work where a cheap IT department refuses to upgrade from 6+ year old machines running XP and bogged down with heavy applications like Symantec. Using work PCs is so obnoxious that I've taken to bringing my own laptop and keeping it my desk so I can get work done in a more efficient and pleasant manner.


It shouldn't be hard to maintain an OS, it should actually be impossible to screw up. You have no idea what it is like to support Windows systems in the work place, it is a real mess. Sure, they provide some great tools, but the OS has become such a huge beast, it is really hard to maintain. Plus, is very expensive.
#7.3 /- Razorfold on 03 Oct 2009 - 04:16
cakesy said,
It shouldn't be hard to maintain an OS, it should actually be impossible to screw up. You have no idea what it is like to support Windows systems in the work place, it is a real mess. Sure, they provide some great tools, but the OS has become such a huge beast, it is really hard to maintain. Plus, is very expensive.


(snipped) why is windows so hard to manage in a workplace as opposed to say mac or linux?

There is also the argument that a well-designed operating system wouldn't need a mess like Symantec, or wouldn't get bogged down after long-term use. Windows doesn't clean up its junk, and I think you are well aware of all the registry cleaners and fixers that are needed out there. It's not solely Microsoft's fault, but Microsoft has done nothing to discourage developers from abusing the registry. Practically every company out there leaves garbage behind in the registry, and sometimes even as running services, even after you uninstall their app, so eventually your Windows installation becomes "bloated" or unstable.


There's nothing really microsoft can do to stop developers doing it without rewriting the registry, and then that would mess with app compatibility.

It's the same thing with UI design. Apple has a set of published UI standards, and when developers code mac apps they follow it quite well and apps look nice. Microsoft has a set of published UI standards for windows, and when devs code for windows they seem to ignore that and make their own ui...which half the time sucks.

Last edited by rm20010 on 03 Oct 2009 - 07:45
#7.4 carmatic on 03 Oct 2009 - 05:43
but that could be true for any software which gets used by anyone... it happens alot more to windows because its alot more common...
but then again someone who just goes with the most popular thing without looking up other alternatives is probably also going to manage said popular thing badly...
#7.5 cakesy on 03 Oct 2009 - 06:52
/- Razorfold said,
Ah who would have thought that cakesy blah blah blah


(snipped)

You are free to research this subject yourself, it is no secret. Of course, you might need to stray away from your regular sites full of like minded people, and come across a differing opinion. Of course, they must be trolls as well.

Linux has huge advantages, it is open standard bases, so very easy to get anything to connect to it.

Last edited by rm20010 on 03 Oct 2009 - 07:52
#7.6 /- Razorfold on 03 Oct 2009 - 06:55
cakesy said,
(snipped)

You are free to research this subject yourself, it is no secret. Of course, you might need to stray away from your regular sites full of like minded people, and come across a differing opinion. Of course, they must be trolls as well.

Linux has huge advantages, it is open standard bases, so very easy to get anything to connect to it.


And the cost of retraining all the staff to use linux? That costs companies a HUGE amount.

Then the cost of reprogramming any applications the company uses that won't work on linux.

And it is quite easy to get anything to connect to windows...hell theres a billion guides, windows has setup wizards for almost anything and you don't have to mess around with the terminal window, and theres also windows steady state ( http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/...ss/default.mspx )

Last edited by rm20010 on 03 Oct 2009 - 07:52
#7.7 /- Razorfold on 03 Oct 2009 - 07:38
Forgot to add to my post above:

Remember the amount of people who complained that the vista control panel or the office 2007 ribbon was too confusing to use? When in fact both of those make things simpler by organizing stuff in a common sensical way.

And you want those same people, to switch to a completely new OS with a different way of doing things just because according to you its easier?

Most people hate change, take them away from what they're comfortable with and they will complain about it.
(8 replies) #8 +M2Ys4U on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:51
No mention of the Xbox (360)?
#8.1 Ricardo Dawkins on 02 Oct 2009 - 15:33
Agree. what a failure with this analysis!!
#8.2 +Chsoriano on 02 Oct 2009 - 16:18
No... guess the author felt that would ruin his overtly negative article.
#8.3 dimithrak on 02 Oct 2009 - 20:04
Chsoriano said,
No... guess the author felt that would ruin his overtly negative article.


+1 - what the author fails to understand is that this is business. You win some you loose some.. Yes he may be right where they lost track of certain things..but that doesnt mean they were lazy!. Well. either way.. its good to have options.. Googles never gonna dominate like Microsoft does. no company will in this day and age. The age of this giant corporations dictating their own terms is over.. With technologies such as the internet and other powerful media sources. it will never be again.
#8.4 csfeist on 02 Oct 2009 - 20:26
If you all had read the article you would note that when he was talking about the zune etc he did mention, "Microsoft latest earning reports for Q2 show that there was a 42% drop on the non-gaming side of Microsoft's Entertainment and Devices unit, which includes the Zune." Which means the gaming side is doing alright. So he didn't leave it out fully it just wasn't an issue that this article was covering.
#8.5 Thunderbuck on 02 Oct 2009 - 22:15
I wouldn't call this article "overtly negative". It poses the legitimate question of whether or not Microsoft still enjoys the dominance it used to.

It doesn't, and that's not a bad thing. Not even for Microsoft. Competition is good for the industry.

I like Windows in general, and I LOVE Windows 7. I feel no need to slag Linux or OSX just because I prefer Windows, and in fact I think Microsoft is bringing out a better product in response to stiffer competition.

I think this column represents a fair assessment.
#8.6 cakesy on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:23
Ricardo Dawkins said,
Agree. what a failure with this analysis!!

I know, he should just focus on the positives. Lets pretend they have never done anything wrong.

You guys keep your heads buried in the sand if you want, the rest of us will not.
#8.7 carmatic on 03 Oct 2009 - 05:45
didnt i read somewhere that microsoft wanted to sell the Xbox as , well, 'The Xbox' .... as opposed to something like 'Microsoft Xbox' , which is what they do with everything else they sell
#8.8 EventHorizon on 05 Oct 2009 - 17:24
cakesy: No one is suggesting that the author focus on the positives.

Part of any reasonable argument is giving a consideration to the viewpoint you are arguing against. The author is trying to question Microsoft's market strength by pointing out different fields where it seems Microsoft is falling behind. However, he fails to mention the dominance of the xbox brand. In other words, it appears that he is cherry-picking the statistics to fit with the article's slant.
(2 replies) #9 wookietv on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:56
The Zune, for example, launched and instantly become the laughing stock of the industry.


that's a bit of an over exaggeration. while yes, it did not do much in terms of moving market share, it's not like they shipped a music player with no mp3 support, or missing a headphone jack. it had, and still has an amazing UI, and when they did v2 of the desktop software, it became a great tool to managing media. i bought a first gen zune (yes, i liked the brown) and just upgraded to an HD and it's a phenomenal device. it's biggest shortcoming is the browser, not in terms of how it renders, but it just doesn't have enough to it yet. it needs a better bookmarking system.but for music/video/podcasting, it can't be beat. everyone is saying it's too late to introduce it, and i almost want to agree. it should be a phone. if they made the zune hd a phone, that would be a killer device (but with a terrible name like "Zune HD Telephonic Enterprise Edition 2009"
#9.1 cakesy on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:27
Everybody laughed at the Zune, especially the Brown one. It was just too little, too late. There is no point pretending that the industry was not laughing. If you didn't see it, it is because you stick to the pro-Microsoft websites.

Of course, they have rectified that with the Zune HD, but will it be just enough, too late?
#9.2 EventHorizon on 05 Oct 2009 - 17:33
cakesy: Even _if_ people were 'laughing' (and you certainly haven't shown that or anything else by simply stating that they were) wookietv's comment still stands, namely that there was really no good reason to laugh at it, as it was a capable device. It may not have been revolutionary like the iPod, but it was on par/ahead of most of the other random mp3 players (sandisk, iriver, samsung) sold at the time. In that sense, the authors comment about the Zune 'instantly becoming the laughing stock of the industry' is sensational at best.
(9 replies) #10 Antaris on 02 Oct 2009 - 14:59
support for web standards such as HTML 5


er...Draft much?
#10.1 +Kirkburn on 02 Oct 2009 - 16:20
Antaris said,
er...Draft much?

Yes, draft. The standards take a /long/ time to reach "final", so it is hardly unexpected.

The web is constantly evolving, and standards take a long time to write and finish. Just because something is in draft, doesn't mean some parts of it aren't finished, and really should be getting into browsers, at least in development.
#10.2 +M2Ys4U on 02 Oct 2009 - 16:33
And let's not forget that the way that W3C standards get to "recommendation" status is by having actual, working implementations.
#10.3 RealFduch on 02 Oct 2009 - 17:21
Kirkburn said,
Yes, draft. The standards take a /long/ time to reach "final", so it is hardly unexpected.

The web is constantly evolving, and standards take a long time to write and finish. Just because something is in draft, doesn't mean some parts of it aren't finished, and really should be getting into browsers, at least in development.

Now turn your brain ON.
Imagine MS does what Firefox just did.
MS launches IE9 which supports -ms-border-radius css attribute (like -moz-border-radius).
Developers write sites using this attribute.
CSS3 is finished.
Now what? There are thousands of sites using non-standard code and we're in "IE6" situation again.

The only good way id to only support !standards!. not drafts.
#10.4 +Kirkburn on 02 Oct 2009 - 17:47
RealFduch said,
Kirkburn said,
Yes, draft. The standards take a /long/ time to reach "final", so it is hardly unexpected.

The web is constantly evolving, and standards take a long time to write and finish. Just because something is in draft, doesn't mean some parts of it aren't finished, and really should be getting into browsers, at least in development.

Now turn your brain ON.
Imagine MS does what Firefox just did.
MS launches IE9 which supports -ms-border-radius css attribute (like -moz-border-radius).
Developers write sites using this attribute.
CSS3 is finished.
Now what? There are thousands of sites using non-standard code and we're in "IE6" situation again.

The only good way id to only support !standards!. not drafts.

Firefox didn't "just do it".

There's little issue with including -moz-border-radius, because it's explicitly non-standard and browser specific, and awaiting a final border-radius that is coming. No other browser than Firefox/Gecko will include "-moz-border-radius".

A sensible designer will use:
-moz-border-radius, -webkit-border-radius, and border-radius

That way, when there's a final version, and browsers start to implement it, it will naturally start being used.

Some within W3C don't even like using the word "standards". CSS 2.1 was a working draft only two years ago - it's now a "Candidate Recommendation" - yes, even that's not "final". Take a look at http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work#table

If you're seriously suggesting NOTHING from the standards gets implemented until it's a "Recommendation", the web would be a very strange place indeed. Browser coders implement stable parts of specs, or develop draft versions for tests. If something's in doubt, you make it browser specific, so you don't "taint" the final version.

Last edited by Kirkburn on 02 Oct 2009 - 17:55
#10.5 stevehoot on 02 Oct 2009 - 18:58
Antaris said,
er...Draft much?


+1

All this talk of HTML 5 is crazy. I'm not at all shocked that IE doesn't support a "standard" that the W3C states:

"Implementors should be aware that this specification is not stable".

Should we forget, HTML5 is a "Working Draft in Development":

"These are draft documents and may be updated, replaced or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use W3C working drafts as reference material or to cite them as other than "work in progress"."
#10.6 cakesy on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:28
Antaris said,
er...Draft much?

Yeah, lets pretend that MS has ever cared about standards. They blew their integrity with ie6, and ie7. Everyone in the industry considers them a joke. Of course, most this will not effect how most people see them.
#10.7 +Kirkburn on 03 Oct 2009 - 13:27
cakesy said,
Yeah, lets pretend that MS has ever cared about standards. They blew their integrity with ie6, and ie7. Everyone in the industry considers them a joke. Of course, most this will not effect how most people see them.

IE7 was about fixing the IE6 issues, and IE team don't want to break the web.

Seriously, we get that you dislike MS, and there's many reasons to hate IE6 - but the fact is, it's out there and being used. Realistically, the IE team couldn't have gone and broken the web by completely changing IE all at once. That would be worse.
#10.8 RealFduch on 03 Oct 2009 - 19:48
Kirkburn said,
There's little issue with including -moz-border-radius, because it's explicitly non-standard and browser specific, and awaiting a final border-radius that is coming. No other browser than Firefox/Gecko will include "-moz-border-radius".

A sensible designer will use:
-moz-border-radius, -webkit-border-radius, and border-radius

"Awaiting"? Are you laughing at us? "Awaiting" like all those developers that created websites that relied on IE6 specific features?

Web page taht complies with web standards should look the same in ANY browser that supports that standard. Period.

P.S. What about "embed" tag that Firefox "inherited" from Netscape? Broken XSLT? Should I use standard-compliant features that don't work in Firefox?

#10.9 +Kirkburn on 05 Oct 2009 - 04:21
You know, people have brains they can use to work out when to do stuff. It's not hard.
(1 reply) #11 Ansuza on 02 Oct 2009 - 15:24
I don't think Microsoft makes bad products. They have their problems, sure, but almost always rebound in some way. I just think people are tired of having to think there's no alternatives. People want change for a variety of reasons: finances, old computers, clueless family or friends, etc. If people were more open-minded and tolerant of alternatives (which includes Apple), maybe Microsoft wouldn't be considered an evil behemoth. I realize every business needs to make money, but I think people should start thinking for themselves for a change. Besides, nobody has a gun to your head, forcing you into Windows. It's a world without walls, right?
#11.1 cakesy on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:29
Microsoft have made bad products, and they have made good products. Just like almost every other company that has ever existed. Even ford made the pinto. You can't argue with this fact.
(3 replies) #12 mocax on 02 Oct 2009 - 15:48
i guess google will become the new juggernaut that everybody loves to hate....

like goku of dragonball, he started off a a cute little kid who overcomes adversity to triumph over evil.... as he got older and power becomes more imba, he starts to irritate me....
#12.1 cakesy on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:30
You miss the point, they have to screw up monumentally to become hated like Microsoft has, in the industry. Apple is doing a lot of screwing around lately, they might be next in line. Google will have to mess up big time.
#12.2 empty on 04 Oct 2009 - 01:50
mocax said,
like goku of dragonball, he started off a a cute little kid who overcomes adversity to triumph over evil.... as he got older and power becomes more imba, he starts to irritate me....


Are you for real?
#12.3 +Tony. on 04 Oct 2009 - 21:21
mocax said,
i guess google will become the new juggernaut that everybody loves to hate....

like goku of dragonball, he started off a a cute little kid who overcomes adversity to triumph over evil.... as he got older and power becomes more imba, he starts to irritate me....



I love Goku.
(3 replies) #13 mikefarinha on 02 Oct 2009 - 15:52
I think that Microsoft is too big be analyzed in such a short article. The author missed many of Microsoft's other products that has been gobbling up market share. For example the .net framework 2.0->3.5 and Visual Studio 2005 & 2008 has been hugely successful in getting Microsoft into corporate development projects. Also Server 2008 has been received so well that they decided to name the followup version Server 2008 R2 instead of Server 2010. SQL Server 2005 & 2008 has also been well received and their SharePoint product has grown into a massive market share.

I think the best way to look at Microsoft is that over the past 5+ years they have been toiling away at many foundational technologies in their labs that are just now starting to emerge in consumer and business related products. Microsoft Surface, SeaDragon, Silverlight, PhotoSynth, etc....
#13.1 cakesy on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:31
Ha, you are a dreamer. VS hasn't made any new inroads that the previous versions have. Microsoft make great development tools, but it doesn't do what everybody wants. And as too naming of R2, what a laugh. I guess they should have stayed with the XP name?
#13.2 wakers01 on 03 Oct 2009 - 04:32
That's Microsoft's big thing... development. As long as they provide the best tools for developers to use, then people will write software in their languages and for their platforms, and they will continue to be the leader in market share. I bet if you look on any job postings web site for software development, one of the biggest categories you'll see listings for is .Net developers. I'm pretty sure Java is still more common, just not by much anymore.

@ caksey
What do you mean that VS hasn't made any new inroads?
#13.3 stevehoot on 03 Oct 2009 - 10:02
cakesy said,
Ha, you are a dreamer. VS hasn't made any new inroads that the previous versions have. Microsoft make great development tools, but it doesn't do what everybody wants. And as too naming of R2, what a laugh. I guess they should have stayed with the XP name?



Huh? The .Net platform has taken a huge market share in a relativitly short period of time. I know of a number of very large organisations that use ASP.Net - including retail online banking websites and blue-chip multinationals.

7 years is a very short time for a multi-platform development framework to take off - which it has.

VS 2008 or 2010 may not have made huge inroads compared to 2003 or 2005 - but why should they? The framework is spreading like wildfire - and introducing Silverlight will only increase the use of .Net as a framework.


Additionally you shouldn't underestimate Microsoft in the enterprise. SQL Server, SharePoint, Exchange and System Centre are all huge products. These tools, combined with the development side of things (.Net, VS, Silverlight), business systems arm (Dynamics line), Consumer and Hardware (XBox, Zune, WinMo, mice/keyboards/webcams).

And obviously the web properties (Bing is picking up market share rapidly, Windows Live, Hosted versions of Exchange and SharePoint), and finally Windows Operating Systems and the Office Suite.

If you seriously think MS are finished then you need to review the whole company...
(1 reply) #14 ahhell on 02 Oct 2009 - 16:04
Imma go fap to Firefox.
BRB
#14.1 acnpt on 02 Oct 2009 - 18:43
haha fantastic
#15 bogas04 on 02 Oct 2009 - 16:06
Their era was awesome , but it doesnt mean that they will rule for ever , everyone gets chance in competition It will be great if some ms official reads this and tells Ballmer Then windows 8 , IE 9 and Office 2010 will again pwn every other software giant
(1 reply) #16 Chasethebase on 02 Oct 2009 - 16:25
"I'M THE JUGGERNAUT B****" Microsoft
Someone had to say it

Very interesting read, but you do have a very good point, even though now they may have a great chance to hold their dominant position well, we have no idea as to what the future holds for both Microsoft and other companies that may rise to the challenge.
#16.1 bdsams on 02 Oct 2009 - 16:58
thanks!
(1 reply) #17 tuxplorer on 02 Oct 2009 - 17:20
Drama on Neowin!!!! Ooooooooh.
#17.1 cakesy on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:32
Or some well needed honesty? I know, it hurts, doesn't it.
(1 reply) #18 iamwhoiam on 02 Oct 2009 - 17:23
A bit negative and full of flaimebait don't you think?
#18.1 Calum on 03 Oct 2009 - 08:05
No, I don't think. It's an editorial - a person's opinion. I see no flame-bait in this article and I'm a moderator. This is somebody's opinion and their take on whether Microsoft is still as much of a giant as it once was. My comment is coming from somebody who loves Microsoft, and no, it still isn't a flame-bait editorial.
#19 m.keeley on 02 Oct 2009 - 17:23
What a lot of words to get a point over.

Yeah like Google OS will take over the world or Apple significantly increase their market share. Google OS won't have the application base to take make much of a dent on anything, OSX has been out for how long now, if it were going to seriously compete it would have already done so.

That's not to say MS have it totally their own way as they used to but for OS's they're not much weaker than they were then, even Bing is starting to eat in to Google search dominance. So even in areas where they took their eyes off the ball they seem now to be bouncing back. Yes FF has taken a share of the browser market but does that really matter to MS when IE is free, not sure it does.
#20 xpclient on 02 Oct 2009 - 17:30
The community can't save Microsoft in some markets like Bing or Windows Mobile as it saved Windows 7 since anyone could try Windows 7 on their PC and come up with pseudo wow-ness and bonus orgasms. They can save MS though in Office, IE and Zune HD (already working).
#21 brianshapiro on 02 Oct 2009 - 17:45
I disagree with the analysis that IE won in the end because it was included for free with the OS. Even when it was included for free, people continued to go to Netscape's site and download their browser, up until newer versions of IE started being better than newer versions of Netscape.

Microsoft was also always competing against bigger companies. Netscape was a smaller company, but it was working with giants like Oracle and Sun and IBM who didn't like Microsoft and wanted to take them down. At that point Oracle, Sun, Netscape and IBM spent millions lobbying congressmen trying to bring anti-trust charges, while Microsoft wasn't spending any money at all.

Microsoft was indeed a juggernaut, which won its position by sharp tactics, many of which are called unfair or monopolistic---but in many ways they were also an underdog, as they were fighting against larger companies in the industry to get ahead.

Whats changed is just that Microsoft isn't the underdog anymore, that's pretty much it imo. Thats why they became 'lazy' or have appeared to have become 'lazy'. But they'll be in the position they're in now for a long time I think.

Last edited by brianshapiro on 02 Oct 2009 - 17:54
#22 lordcanti86 on 02 Oct 2009 - 18:01
I love it when people come up with the "anti-competitive" argument because, really, name me a company that can be described as "pro-competetive"?
#23 Hot on 02 Oct 2009 - 18:24
During the '90s and even in to the early 2000s Microsoft dominated the home computer landscape. The typical user wrote their documents in Microsoft Office, on top of a Windows XP platform while browsing in IE 6.

Yea, I remember all those people using Windows XP back in the '90s, before it was ever even conceived...
(2 replies) #24 Deathray on 02 Oct 2009 - 18:57
But it seems Microsoft may have more to learn as its newest browser IE 8 fails to include support for web standards such as HTML 5.

Web standard? The ****, when did HTML 5 get finalized?

Their offer, Hotmail, only offered a paltry 5MB and lost customers to Gmail in a record fashion.

Citation needed for that one. The record fashion part... I thought it took a while for Gmail do to some damage, just like firefox.

The Zune, for example, launched and instantly become the laughing stock of the industry.

Citation needed.

I am a little confused with your article. You blast the Zune for making no impact on the market against the iPod, but you worship Mozilla for sticking with their guns and years later, seeing the results of their hard work.

Here's why your article sucks. You're focused on the past. I say this due to your one line about Zune HD. No mention of Xbox360... really... how the hell could you skip that? Also, your ignorance over what Microsoft has done since Vista... i.e. Windows 7 and its reception so far. You leave it as a question mark, but ignore all the reviews and press that Windows 7 has already gotten. You also ignored the advertising campaigns that Microsoft has begun since Apple's dominance in that arena. Microsoft has clearly stepped up it's marketing campaign.

You clearly seem to want to show Microsoft as a company that's going downard, but really... your article is about 1 or 2 years late

Since this is an editiorial, I guess I can't get too ****ed off at your tone in the article, but it really seems one sided and ignorant of pretty much anything that's happened in 2009 (at least when it comes to Microsoft's strides in a positive direction)
#24.1 ajua on 03 Oct 2009 - 08:22
Having nothing to say against or pro Microsoft, I was about to comment on the article itself and how it failed to "analyze" the current status of things.

You last lines are true, I think the author was being ignoran of some of those facts.

Editorial or not, the writer should have addressed his points talking about the current technologies/products being made or developed by all the companies he talked about just to make it to the present day and how the perception about Microsoft, Apple, Google etc is going with the users or the media.
#24.2 +Tony. on 04 Oct 2009 - 21:24
While Hotmail's 5MB was limiting (You could still hold a **** ton of emails) Gmail's 1GB offer was great, but as you say, it took Gmail awhile to catch on. Mainly the lack of advertising and it was invitation only.
(2 replies) #25 omnicoder on 02 Oct 2009 - 19:32
I like how you fail to mention anything they've done right (EG Windows 7's success) and I think this article should be removed. It's basically heavily opinionated flamebait that somehow managed to get to the news page.

(snipped)

Last edited by rm20010 on 03 Oct 2009 - 08:10
#25.1 neodorian on 02 Oct 2009 - 20:27
Well, Win7 is a critical success so far but it remains to be seen how much of a success it will be in the market. I personally like it a lot. Good balance between hardware support, features, and price.

Like Vista a lot will depend on implementation.
#25.2 Calum on 03 Oct 2009 - 08:03
Windows 7 is, as of yet, unreleased to the public. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but you cannot measure the success of a product on something which has not been released to the public!

As for the editorial - it is an opinion piece, it is not supposed to consider all aspects of a company and be fair and balanced; it is one user's opinion and their perspective on things.
#26 Omen1393 on 02 Oct 2009 - 19:41
Interesting article. I think this article is fairly accurate in most of the points but I feel as if the article doesn't recognize the strides that Microsoft has made to maintain their marketshare and even increase it. Microsoft has done an astounding job in my opinion. For instance, all of the computers in my school used Firefox 2.0 last year and used Google. This year, the default browser is IE8 with Bing as the default search engine, maybe that says something about Microsoft's improvements, I don't know but it's kind of cool to see everyone in my computer science class use bing and IE8 when they search for things when a year ago using live search and IE7 would be thought of as a vile act of evil.
(1 reply) #27 dimithrak on 02 Oct 2009 - 20:05
Im sure this author is not a big fan of Microsoft. ... or he is and is really disappointed in them.. very hard to say.. overall, very well written.. Thanks for stating the obvious..

other than that, I think microsoft need a whole new marketing campaign like Apple did when it made its come back. "MICROSOFT! THINK DIFFERENT" seriously, I still cant believe they had a windows 7 launch party!. how insanely tacky. Turns off this very materialistic generation of human beings.. I think its time Steve Balmer retires and calls back Gates..
#27.1 neodorian on 02 Oct 2009 - 20:24
"Think different: use whatever brand of computer you feel like"
(2 replies) #28 jonofezz on 02 Oct 2009 - 20:23
Kinda disappointed in Neowin at having posted this. As mentioned, it is not news at all.
Clearly this is just mostly an end-user, sitting at home, desktop perspective of things.... (oh but he mentions 'cloud', how dare i say that).
What about the corporate world? Yes Windows 7 does and will kick ass once it hits mainstream. Where in here is there mention of Windows Server 2008 and up (R2) with the immense strides in things like IIS, GPOs, Remote Desktop Services / Terminal Services, RDP7 and their own FREE Hypervisor. What about all the work with Citrix both creating products to compliment eachothers products and to throw a little bit of fear into the VMWare camp. What about purchased technologies like App-V (SoftGrid) which they continue to improve and are amazing pieces of technology for the corporate world today. You have MED-V, the new desktop deployment technologies, PowerShell v2.... all just a few of the things Microsoft has going on in the larger corporate world.
While the few facts stated in this article may be true.... it is only a small portion of what MS has going on. Everyone has their hiccups and ups and downs. It's to be expected when you're the monster that MS is and will continue to be.
#28.1 Calum on 03 Oct 2009 - 07:56
No, it is not news, it's an editorial.
#28.2 stevehoot on 03 Oct 2009 - 10:13
jonofezz said,
Kinda disappointed in Neowin at having posted this. As mentioned, it is not news at all.
Clearly this is just mostly an end-user, sitting at home, desktop perspective of things.... (oh but he mentions 'cloud', how dare i say that).
What about the corporate world? Yes Windows 7 does and will kick ass once it hits mainstream. Where in here is there mention of Windows Server 2008 and up (R2) with the immense strides in things like IIS, GPOs, Remote Desktop Services / Terminal Services, RDP7 and their own FREE Hypervisor. What about all the work with Citrix both creating products to compliment eachothers products and to throw a little bit of fear into the VMWare camp. What about purchased technologies like App-V (SoftGrid) which they continue to improve and are amazing pieces of technology for the corporate world today. You have MED-V, the new desktop deployment technologies, PowerShell v2.... all just a few of the things Microsoft has going on in the larger corporate world.
While the few facts stated in this article may be true.... it is only a small portion of what MS has going on. Everyone has their hiccups and ups and downs. It's to be expected when you're the monster that MS is and will continue to be.


+1
Couldn't agree more
#29 burnblue on 02 Oct 2009 - 20:50
The only problem I see here is an expectation that Microsoft should launch a product and have 95% dominance just because they do so in Windows and Office. Does Google have that kind of dominance in something besides Search and Ads? Or Apple in something besides iPods? Does RIM win at anything but Blackberries?

I'd like to have those kind of image problems. "Oh Tiger Woods, he only won 9 of his 10 championships this year"
(6 replies) #30 seb5150 on 02 Oct 2009 - 20:53
This article is nothing but opinions and is about 2 years worth of examples and anecdotes too late. Look at Microsoft today and the products they have on the table today. Win7, ZuneHD, IE8, Zune 4.0 software, Windows Live software, Bing, etc. Competition breeds excellence, if Microsoft hadn't faltered in a few areas over the last couple years (Vista, IE8 ) we would not have the breadth of quality products and choices we have today.
#30.1 toadeater on 02 Oct 2009 - 22:33
seb5150 said,
Look at Microsoft today and the products they have on the table today. Win7, ZuneHD, IE8, Zune 4.0 software, Windows Live software, Bing, etc. Competition breeds excellence


Yes... Firefox, Chrome, iPhone, Google, Facebook, Flash, etc., etc. Don't forget who the innovators are and who is doing the imitating. MS is trying to play a game of catch-up. MS didn't invent any of the things you mention, they're imitations of other companies' innovations.

And if you don't think that's true, look at the results of the Google - Bing poll on the front page.

Last edited by toadeater on 02 Oct 2009 - 22:42
#30.2 m.keeley on 03 Oct 2009 - 03:22
The poll shows over a third favoring Bing, pretty darn good for a service that's been out mere months. As for innovators v imitators, the Japs were imitators didn't do them any harm.
#30.3 /- Razorfold on 03 Oct 2009 - 04:33
toadeater said,
Yes... Firefox, Chrome, iPhone, Google, Facebook, Flash, etc., etc. Don't forget who the innovators are and who is doing the imitating. MS is trying to play a game of catch-up. MS didn't invent any of the things you mention, they're imitations of other companies' innovations.

And if you don't think that's true, look at the results of the Google - Bing poll on the front page.


What exactly is innovation in todays world? Everyone copies of everyone in order to get ahead. If windows releases a new feature, and then apple copies it...its nothing bad. If apple releases a new feature, and then microsoft copies it...it makes them a bad company.

Zune software over itunes - Zune beats it hands down.

Windows live software - Has been around for ages, just repackaged and merged together to form one big service. What exactly is this a copy of?

Windows 7 - A copy of what? Mac OS X? Before even leopard or snow leopard came to the desk, the same technologies you see in 7 were there in vista, and were there in the betas that were released long ago. Windows vista was supposed to bring about massive innovation in file systems with the WinFS but they had to "scrap" that idea due to time constraints and other factors.

Firefox - Nothing innovative about this browser, chrome and opera are way more innovative than this.

iPhone - Please...

Facebook - Facebook at one point of time was innovative...now its another myspace...and what exactly does microsoft have that competes with facebook?

Flash - Silverlight beats it hands down.

Last edited by /- Razorfold on 03 Oct 2009 - 04:39
#30.4 wakers01 on 03 Oct 2009 - 04:40
toadeater said,
Yes... Firefox, Chrome, iPhone, Google, Facebook, Flash, etc., etc. Don't forget who the innovators are and who is doing the imitating. MS is trying to play a game of catch-up. MS didn't invent any of the things you mention, they're imitations of other companies' innovations.

And if you don't think that's true, look at the results of the Google - Bing poll on the front page.


Yeah, cuz Apple invented mp3 players, Mozilla invented web browsers, right?

Most ideas aren't original, they just improve on what came before them.
#30.5 Calum on 03 Oct 2009 - 07:55
seb5150 said,
This article is nothing but opinions [...]

An editorial is an opinion piece...
#30.6 seb5150 on 03 Oct 2009 - 16:03
toadeater said,
Yes... Firefox, Chrome, iPhone, Google, Facebook, Flash, etc., etc. Don't forget who the innovators are and who is doing the imitating. MS is trying to play a game of catch-up. MS didn't invent any of the things you mention, they're imitations of other companies' innovations.

And if you don't think that's true, look at the results of the Google - Bing poll on the front page.


I'm not claiming that Microsoft is the market leader in all those categories, only that because they have competition in those spaces it pushes them to be better and faster, which in turn pushes their competitiors to be better and faster. And as far as innovation goes, they're all just ultimately copying Xerox PARC. Before Chrome and Firefox, there was IE and Netscape and Opera. Wouldn't it be accurate to say that Chrome and Firefox copied the innovations of MS, Netscape and Opera to use as the base of their new products??
#31 speedstr3789 on 02 Oct 2009 - 21:06
Is Microsoft the juggernaut of yore?

uhhh yea? Do we really need a novel to know this?
This kind of stuff seems to happen every once in a while.

"Microsoft in that same month dropped below 90%"

My God..they dropped below.....90%!!! All Hell is gonna break loose.
(3 replies) #32 Frank Fontaine on 02 Oct 2009 - 22:55
I get the impression that Microsoft have stopped listening to their users of late, the amount of 'By Design' and 'Will Not Fixes' posted during the Vista and 7 Betas seem to attest to that, coupled with the fact that their Beta programs are getting worse and worse (2 releases for Windows 7, jeez), I feel they need to start listening to feedback again.
#32.1 /- Razorfold on 03 Oct 2009 - 04:34
Frank Fontaine said,
I get the impression that Microsoft have stopped listening to their users of late, the amount of 'By Design' and 'Will Not Fixes' posted during the Vista and 7 Betas seem to attest to that, coupled with the fact that their Beta programs are getting worse and worse (2 releases for Windows 7, jeez), I feel they need to start listening to feedback again.


2 releases? Are you even a windows beta tester? Don't talk about things you have absolutely no idea about. For example:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%...d&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

I can count 9 builds in the first page only, and theres a hell lot more than that.

Last edited by /- Razorfold on 03 Oct 2009 - 04:41
#32.2 rm20010 on 03 Oct 2009 - 08:01
He was probably referring to how public and private beta testers only got the beta and RC to play with, not counting the other public 'testers' who got leaked builds using their own methods. Sharp contrast to Vista's testing period which had community TAPs and many pre-beta builds - although in my opinion the beta periods before 7 were too inefficient.
#32.3 Thunderbuck on 03 Oct 2009 - 09:31
MS clearly adopted a different strategy re public exposure when it came to Win7. My own experience--on a variety of hardware--suggested that Win7 was very close to release-ready at the beginning of 2009.

They've kept a pretty tight lid on it, and so far they've gotten pretty much universally good buzz for it. Sounds like a successful community promotion to me.
#33 hotdog963al on 02 Oct 2009 - 23:29
Totally agree with everything in the article. Great jorb!
(3 replies) #34 powerade01 on 03 Oct 2009 - 05:43
No Messenger mention (I remember AIM as the big one and now WLM is the top used)
No Surface mention.....Guess the good things arent mentioned.
This is nice and all that but front page? Please


Please post a Apple article just like this. I want to hear about the iPod/iTouch, the iMac, the ads, and how in the 80-90s Apple had PCs in alot of schools. Because AFAIK that is pretty much all Apple has done.
#34.1 PureLegend on 03 Oct 2009 - 08:16
powerade01 said,

Please post a Apple article just like this.

I don't see why. What's Apple got to do with this anyway?
#34.2 +Kirkburn on 03 Oct 2009 - 13:32
powerade01 said,
Please post a Apple article just like this. I want to hear about the iPod/iTouch, the iMac, the ads, and how in the 80-90s Apple had PCs in alot of schools. Because AFAIK that is pretty much all Apple has done.

Quick answer: it's entirely up to the staff of Neowin. And this isn't a "contest" between Apple and MS.

MS is a huge company with many different products over the years. Naturally this editorial couldn't cover it all. After all, people write entire books about this stuff.
#34.3 powerade01 on 04 Oct 2009 - 16:06
PureLegend said,
powerade01 said,


Please post a Apple article just like this.

I don't see why. What's Apple got to do with this anyway?

Quick answer: it's entirely up to the staff of Neowin. And this isn't a "contest" between Apple and MS.

MS is a huge company with many different products over the years. Naturally this editorial couldn't cover it all. After all, people write entire books about this stuff.

Fine by me. Doesnt have to be Apple. IBM, Sun, etc any other company. But a article written the same exact way as this one...
#35 Bemani Dog on 03 Oct 2009 - 12:27
Cloud computing is not the end-all be-all of the future. There will be a large segment of people out there who will not accept their data being stored all on a remote server where, with enough expertise, anybody can see it.
(1 reply) #36 excalpius on 03 Oct 2009 - 18:16
What a load self-deluded blog-grade crap from someone who is trying to convince himself (and the already converted) that somehow any of the other niche computer OS vendors have a chance to rival MS?

Where oh where is the "filter out editorials" option for this blog?

/rant
#36.1 +Kirkburn on 05 Oct 2009 - 04:24
excalpius said,
Where oh where is the "filter out editorials" option for this blog?

/rant

It's coming. But for goodness sake, it's an editorial - an opinion piece.

Just learn to cope when people have different opinions to you.
#37 antsy on 04 Oct 2009 - 21:46
FF only 18%, the good thing about Firefox is that it's at least installed on the computers of of lot of people who don't us it, I remember my Ex GF she never used FF but her little sister did.
#38 Manjaster on 05 Oct 2009 - 19:34
Microsoft is failing in video gaming market. First beaten by Sony and now by Nintendo.

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