Neowin.net

It is not a bug, it is a feature.

Think different.

Porn mode?? Lulz

Wow, they extended the porn mode from browser to whole system!?

Pretty much ever since this incident:
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/08/26/a...-a-power-mac-g5

Where can I download a similar feature for my Windows 7 PC?

LOL

Isn't it great how when this happens to Apple people just turn it into a joke whereas if this had happened on Windows it would be a major issue which would never be forgotten about...

I'm sorry Apple but this is a major failure in what is supposed to be a very secure system.

LOL!

LMAO! Yeah how 'bout it. I guess those people that buy Apple because, "they just want it to work" are thinking twice about their over-priced decision.


Wow. BIG surprise! Then again, this from a company that never does anything wrong.

Still didn't have the balls to put the "I'm a PC" sticker over the Apple logo though.

But then how would you know it's a thousands dollar Macbook, and not just a powerful 700$ laptop?

I like the glow from the apple logo *blush*

LOL brillliant

You blew your bandwidth limit.

Whoa O_O

...gotta upload it elsewhere then..unfortunately the Pics is on my other PC....unless..

is that you mean http://aasi.ebm.fi/5037/Just-a-friendly-picture.png ?

http://localhostr.com/files/096d56/DSC00911.JPG
http://localhostr.com/files/3b22f4/Just%20...%20picture..png

and yes joker

They are.

Actually, no they are not. I'm not underplaying the severity of this bug, but I find it odd so many people are logging in to their "guest" accounts, it's not really easy to do by accident. Oh well, this kind of thing really should not make it through QA.

You mean because maybe there are a lot of people that might not use their computer exactly the same way you do? I know, crazy. Unless you took of a poll of every Mac user, then how the hell do you know "actually, no they are not."? That's right, you don't.

Who says they are doing it by accident? It does have a purpose after all. Claiming that you know how everyone else uses their computers is ridiculous.

Really?

What purpose, I have never used it, can't see a use for it. Maybe you can enlighten us.

While this is a huge bug, and there is no excuse for it, it would never affect me or a lot of people I know.

Gee, maybe the name itself "Guest Account" might provide you with a clue. Try not to think too hard about it though!

they should be held liable, yes. But advertising really has nothing to do with it, it's advertising.

I can see it ticking off a home user, who let's their kids use the computer and then bam their files are gone. Who get's blamed? The kid of course.

Sadly Apple probably isn't liable.
In most western nations (and any country with consumer protection laws) there is an 'implied warranty of merchantability'. The idea is that anything you sell comes with an implied guarantee that it suitable for the purpose for which the product or service is sold. For example: If I sell you a hammer it's implied that it's suitable for driving nails. If the hammer shatters when you try to pound a screw into sheetrock then I may be found at fault and you could be entitled to some form of restitution (or if my product shatters and severs your arm: I could be responsible for the harm and in sever cases subject to negligence charges).


The implied warranty does not require that a product be suitable for all purposes for which an item may be used. For example if my hammer worked fine for driving nails but you decided to use it as a garden tool and it rusted: I'm not responsible for that and even if you were injured you wouldn't be entitled to compensation.

Exactly how far merchantability laws go is unclear. Some companies err on the side of caution: that's why you see things like electric heaters "not to be used as a floatation device": the company is concerned that somebody, somewhere will try to use their heater in a pool, get electrocuted, and then file a complaint. Having the fine print would allow them to defend against claims. It's mostly motivated by American legal victories but the EU isn't totaly safe either.

In the case of EULAs there haven't been many tests of "fitness to the purpose". Some countries have found that a customer can't sign away their consumer rights in an EULA or otherwise (refunds on bundled copies of Windows is the case that comes to mind) but the last time I checked there were no firm findings that operating systems are required to be 'suitable for the purpose of running your computer' (ridiculous: right?)

Realistically this will play out exactly the same as every other data loss bug in the history of computing: an update will be released and everyone will forget.


It happened last year in Windows Home Server: saving files (under certain circumstances) caused them to be erased or become corrupted beyond recovery. It was fixed a month or two after being reported and that was the end of that. This issue springs to mind because it hit my parents, whom I think were the only people on earth to ever buy one of those boxes. I vividly remember getting the call: I was face down, naked, hungover, and laying in a puddle of water at the cabin…the phone rang "The computer lost Coronation Street, how do we get it back?!"

Last edited by evn. on 12 Oct 2009 - 06:03

How is using the guest account (which Apple provides) not a reasonable senario?

You might also ask how moving files to a Windows Home Server box (which is bullet point #1 on the bo or simply plugging in a firewire drive (which is pretty much the only thing you an do with one) not a reasonable scenario?


The point is: there is a long history of data-loss issues caused by software where the consumer is ultimately left holding the bag. If you don't agree with that write a letter to your local consumer protection agency, minister of industry, and member of parliament/senator. This is something everybody needs to do because even if Apple or Microsoft were to be held to responsible for this sort of thing in one country (ie: England) that wouldn't apply to people living in the Americas or Asia.


In the case of Apple specifically - they have this to say about the implied warranty of merchantability:


wrt. to EULA enforcability, there are two possible outcomes:

• EULAs are unenforceable. The only conditions where onerous EULA conditions were found to be unlawful were cases of click-through agreements. In those cases Microsoft/Dell (possibly others) had EULAs that were said to be 'accepted' immediately upon turning on a computer and/or opening a sealed package (in both cases you couldn't read the EULA before accepting it). One of the conditions of the license in question said the user lost the ability to return the software for a refund. The courts rejected that specific portion of the EULA. They also held that EULAs were binding provided they could be read prior to accepting the terms of the license (Apple includes a paper version in every box and allows you to read it electronically on all of their systems before you agree to it). If any part of a modern EULA is going to be rendered unenforceable it won't be because a user was unable to enter into the contract knowingly.
• The specific disclaimer wrt. merchantability will be rendered unenforceable. In the past courts have ruled certain portions of an EULA is unenforceable even if the customer 'knowingly' accepted the conditions. I couldn't write an EULA that says "by agreeing to this license you are my slave": it would be struck down.
  
  Specific to software: the courts have ruled that licenses that signing-away first-sale rights in the USA are not valid (see Autodesk v. Vernor). In the EU extended consumer protections (like buyers remorse protections) have been ruled to take precedence over EULA limitations. You'll often see lines like the "if your nation doesn't allow time limits on warranties to be set then this bit doesn't apply". Provided a contract was entered in good faith courts will strike down individual provisions, not the entire contract.

In order for a successful suit to be launched against any developer you would have to prove several things:

• A bug exists, it causes data loss (0)
• That implied merchantability warranty is valid wrt. computer software is valid (1)
• That any disclaimers in the EULA are unenforceable (2)
• That the remedy offered in the EULA—typically return the software, end your license, and receive a refund—is unacceptable (3).
• That the bug in #1 means the software doesn't live up to merchantability requirements (4).

0. Let's just grant this as a sure thing for the purpose of argument.
1. Has never been established that implied merchantability applies to software (just like establishing murder vs manslaughter has rules, so does determining if the IWM applied to a product). IMO it's possible to make a reasonable case that no such implied warranty exists. Depending on where the case is brought I think this could go either way.
2. Is easier said than done. In some jurisdictions I think that could be shown (the EU, it has much better consumer protection rules than the US). The UCC does allow you to disclaim implied warranties (I checked in my old business law text from university) but it's possible that the court may limit this in certain circumstances. It's the sort of thing that would be argued out over many years because any verdict would be appealed at least once. If I bet on lawsuits I'd say this is a long shot but it could work out in some places.
3. Is extremely unlikely, probably even impossible. Courts are guided by previous rulings and in those cases the courts have always decided that simply nullifying the contract is appropriate.
4. Establishing this would be very difficult due to the somewhat nebulous nature of merchantability requirements. The easiest to way to think of it would be if you were arguing a fight between two white guys was a hate crime. You might try to argue one guy was a neo-nazi and the other was a xionist but both would be able to put forth a strong defence that it was a simple assault. If you can't prove it was a hate crime then you can't go forth with the trial (we'd be assuming simple assualt isn't a crime for the purpose of this illustration).

That's why you don't see "Oh you lost my data: pay day!" class action lawsuits. The issues are very complex.

Last edited by evn. on 12 Oct 2009 - 08:21

Ummm....what the hell were you doing?

First really good party of the sumer: the details of the night before are a bit hazy, but the hangover is not something I'll forget.
I think I fell into the lake and decided to just "take a nap" while getting changed.

Sounds like the Sidekick users who have lost all their data are going for a class action lawsuit. Not sure whether it's different that the data was lost due to there being no backups compared to a software bug. You could say the software wasn't fit for purpose in which case there could be a case???

Can corpses file legal complaints? rofl

No, but the surviving members of the family are likely to sue.

Microsoft has pulled a stunt like this. Microsoft also claims in advertising that they are the most stable and secure, they even produce sponsored studies proving this. The government has not stepped in in the past, with the chkdsk bug that deleted data.

This is a huge bug, but lets not get too excited about it. Do you know what schadenfraude is?

apple lucky..sadly if windows came out if the same problem..it'll be all over cnn.

Happy as a clam Windows user here, but it shouldn't be forgotten that very early on, Vista had a problem where deleting something in the file pane might accidentally delete the entire folder. This got some degree of attention, though it doesn't seem nearly as bad as losing all of your information just for using a basic feature that shouldn't have anything to do with file removal in the first place.

Guest user accounts do have something to do with file removal - they are designed to remove all files used upon logging out. I believe this fault makes the normal account think it is a guest account and so proceeds to delete everything.

How is intentionally deleting files or formatting your hard drive even remotely related to this? If you type in a command to delete all the files on your drive and don't expect to lose your files, I'm sorry but you're just stupid. There's a huge difference between typing in cryptic commands and simply logging into your guest account.

Some one got told.

whats wrongwith having my own delete party? I cant get windows to willingly delete it for me so i have to do it myself. shift+delete enter

if that was true, they would need to devote a weekly 2 hour program. Or what do you think happens on patch Tuesdays, new themes and icons?

How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the book?

4 bugs in 4 pages? What a waste of papers.

Heck of a lot more than 4, check the Mac forums.

No wonder nobody reads the bug reports. It's full of Steeley's spit.

there time traveling will probably save some of them. :/

ROFL Time traveling. Best comment!

= )

tru dat

its happened to me on windows sorta. what windows does is log you into your account with all the guest stuff because it had an error loging you in, all you have to do is log back out and locg in and its all back. once on exp it wouldnt let me log in as my username so i had to make a new acount and drag the data. but windows never deletets anything. windows fault is it dosent want to delete anything

tru.dat

...I had to.

c:ongratla.tns

Registry crashes do though, which are sometimes just as bad, when the registry autobackup hasn't worked for whatever reason.

Yes, it has happened to me. *sigh*

The installed apps all get borked, you lose tons of settings, and you can then just as well backup your data and reinstall Windows.

Yeah, but that's a bit different from this bug. At least when Windows has an issue logging you in because of a corrupt user profile registry your documents etc. are still intact!

Jugalator that doesn't even make any sense, the registry doesn't "crash" and I have never seen anything like that happen on any of my computers over many years of using windows.

It takes a couple of simple registry errors to cripple a Windows installation. I've had one incident where even a repair install wouldn't fix it because it simply reproduced the error again instead of fixing it--brilliant!

I have used Windows since Windows 3.11. But I still cannot understand what a "registry error" is? Can you enlighten me?

P.S. And no, I don't consider bad sector on HDD corrupting some files file "registry error".

Lol. Yesterday my friend spent some hours trying to fix the stuck trackpad (he had never used) of his rather new Macbook.

It looks like it just works really well at deleting data! 8P

No undelete possible...eesh!

No. You need OS/2.

DOS FTW!

...Packard Bell desktop?


...anyone...?


*hides*

AMIGAS RULE!!!

F**k computers!

Let's just run in a field naked and communicate telepathically.

lucky 777 system is the best !

+1

+1

-2

another apple fanboy i guess

lol

Sometimes I wish I wasnt a subscriber , lol

Yeah, log into the guest account

ROFL! comment of the page

Why? If this was a Windows bug, Apple fan boys would be all over it.

Hahahaha.....I dont know if this user is being sarcastic or not but come on...

lol leave britney alone reference

Ferment an apple and you get cider, yum yum yum... ferment windows and you just get uPVC and glass

You got a problem with uPVC and glass?

I think MS should be above that.

With Microsoft having over 90% of the desktop market, they don't need to sling crud.

They have that high percentage because the average Joe on the street is too stupid to know that there is anything else.

Yet not stupid enough to buy an overpriced iAppliance that will delete all our data?

I would say not throwing money at a company to feel part of a "community" that worships overpriced PCs, is pretty damn smart. Ok, back to playing games. Wanna lan?

Microsoft wont go down to that level.

Yeah, they're "stupid" because they didn't buy an overpriced status symbol. I think I hear an Apple fan crying.

Microsoft has way too much class for that.

wow, just called most of the people on this site stupid huh? Way to make friends....

The problem is it's deleting other accounts data, not the guest account.

Indeed. The tough part here is that when you beta an OS you don't do production work on it, so you don't often save many files you want to keep, etc. etc.

In fact you keep things VERY bare since you know you'll have to wipe it as soon as the next beta comes your way.

In this case, it is possible the bug was simply never seen since the beta testers might not have noticed any missing data where there wasn't any before.

Best Quote Ever!

I like to compare a Mac to the London Underground. When it's working it's a little piece of heaven that no man can live without. But when it's not, boy oh boy, you better believe it doesn't do it by halves.

Haha i love that analogy, but it is for that reason i do not use the #underground any more.

And to make the data unrecoverable even with undelete software?! OUCH!

Why on earth did you buy a Mac Pro then? The only reason I can think of is running software like Logic Pro or Final Cut. You could have built a lot cheaper computer with the same specs if you don't need to use OSX so often, and get a cheap mac mini for the rare occasions you feel like running it.

Because I like OSX, however you do get fed up of all the half baked releases. Snow Leopard is the latest in a long line of versions that has been released too early, they're already seeding .2 with about 100 bug fixes on top of what was fixed in .1 Just not good enough.

Yes I'd miss things like Aperture but Light Room is fine and in some ways better.

For the price I paid for the Mac Pro, which was second hand, I couldn't have built a dual quad core xeon system with 12GB ram and 4TB storage for less.

As for Mac Mini's they're overpriced junk, had one, painfully slow. I could have turned my other desktop in to a Hackintosh if I wanted to go that way, did for a short time to make sure everything worked 100% but then saw the Mac Pro for sale.

Hardly the point, if Win 7 did the same would it be OK because it comes with backup software? No.

But it is only good if you store your info on a backup drive. I wonder how many people who purchased new macs with the latest version of the OS also purchased an exteranal backup source or how many users who upgraded to the latest have a external backup source.

They ship Time Machine because their OS is buggy and will delete your data? Good to know I guess, lol.

+1

And that's not the point. The point is there's a bug in a feature that is offered by the OS.

When I have Guests over and they wish to use my PC, I enable the Guess account.

On my Windows 7 which doesnt delete data I might add

I use the Guest account when Charter comes to work on my internet connection. I would be quite upset if my user account was blown away because of that. As upset as if my Window Home Server deleted everything I copied onto it.

I love all the Apple defenders crying "but, but no one uses that feature!".

that's apple fanboys for you !

hmm somehow I vaguely remember something similar now. Who needs and FM tuner on his Ipod?

Its Apple. If it was Microsoft, it would be pinned at top, the news passed to CNN/BBC/etc, forums going crazy, etc.
But since its Apple....Its still cool.

Or use TimeMachine and go back to a time before you bought the upgrade.

Because, as Roadwarrior mentioned, using the Guest account is very rare. Not defending it in anyway, but, you would be hard pressed to find someone doing beta testing on such an account. I'm inclined to believe that whatever was changed in the code for that function was believed insignificant, so it wasn't thoroughly tested. I have three Macs and haven't been affected by any of these major bugs. I definitely feel for those that have, though.

Sad to see that so many others are creaming at their loins over the misfortune of others just over their hatred for all things Apple.

But this causes data lost. I also ask you to define Window's fault because AFAIK It doesnt have any for me.

The viruses in your office arent Window's fault, they are the IT admin's fault for not putting a decent antivirus and configuring the computer correctly.


Please dont catch feelings; It is just a OS.

Right, because the smug Apple fans haven't been constantly bashing Windows since time began. Give us a break.

You have pretty stupid people working at your office. The entire place has infected Windows PC's? That's brutal. At least they aren't losing their data though.

seriously windows is not at fault for the incompetency of your pathertic it department

I suspect the office us full of Apple users who install everything and anything as apple fanboys do.
The issue is IT gave you admin rights when clearly your staff cant handle it.

Is your 10.6.1 install a fresh install or a update?

Only happens on update.

the cost is gona be a revolutionary 29 dollars

Please dont take this the wrong way , but using a release candidate as your main OS is rather fool hardy be it Mac , Windows or a *Nix distro.

Maybe trying a full "RTM" type product would be a better solution as your main OS....just an idea, always works for me.

Both Windows 7 and Snow Leopard are great OSes that are ready for prime time. Windows 7 has had its major bugs ironed out already. This bug in Snow Leopard is apparently not easy to reproduce, and will not even work on a clean install. So if you were planning on buying a new Mac, this wouldn't even affect you. Linux, for the most part is as stable as you'd be able to make it; the more knowledge you have, the better it will work for you.

I know, I put my neck on the block by relating my experience as a warning to others, but I agree and said as much in my post.

I additionally was unable to install the RC of Windows 7 on a Asus P5VD2-MX motherboard with a Geforce 7300GS graphics card; a couple of users reported that in order to get it to work you had to hack files from the previous beta release, which works, into the RC but that thread, unhelpful to the RC program, was understandably closed down; the assumption has been that the RTM will work. Hope so. I just read that the Snow Leopard bug doesn't occur on machines with a clean install. It does sound to me, though, that Apple tried to get the jump on Microsoft by releasing Snow Leopard a little too early; the next update contains features that should have made the RTM; anyone know if Snow Leopard can be slip streamed?

Also, this bug is intersting :-) Type in your password in reverse order after you login to another account!

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?t...184529&tstart=0

Great catch! LOL

You forgot Hitachi

Yeah that would work if it wasn't deleting the primary accounts instead of the guest data.

Now, the question is... who is dumb

Apparently you didn't read the article. Not only does it wipe the guest account clean, it also wipes the main account clean, as well.

I like the phrase "by design" What does it mean? Is it a good thing?

You don't need to imagine it, it happened twice already in Windows. WHS corrupted files, something much harder to detect. And even the Windows 7 Beta decided to trim music files as it pleased.

This isn't any different, it's also not easily reproducible as so far no one in this forum could, upgrade or not.

Ohh yes, that makes sense..compare a beta product to a retail version.

Unfortunately .0 releases of OSX are often more like beta than retail versions, you can be certain that .1 and .2 will arrive shortly after.

But you're correct it's unfair to compare retail SL with MS betas.

WHS was retail, and it was nasty.

but who used WHS anyways compared to the snow leopard user population out there ??

All retail versions are Final. There's nothing "more" or "less" "like a beta" if it is sold to the public at a price.



That is the same excuse being used by the Mac fanboys to justify the latest bug.

well i mean windows home server is a server operating system whereas snow leopard is a consumer operating system

Maybe you missed the part where the H stands for Home. WHS is a consumer OS.

yes its supposed to be a home server but how many everyday computers that people use shipped with windows home server actually

This has NEVER happened in Windows... Get it straight.

Oh wow, that meme is still going, huh?

Hacker proof

I know, so much for the most secure OS and them always making fun of MS!

There's a security flaw that if you press APPLE+S and type the right commands you can get an administrator account anyway

Wonderful!

Single user mode gives root access. It's not a security flaw as that is its main design.

I'm sure you're aware that pretty much any operating system has the ability to reset an administrator password, given that you have physical access to the machine.

This issue by LoginWindowUI came about in 10.6.1. It is fixed in 10.6.2.

Wow! Such thing would never be possible in NT line of Windows. Many Features (like EFS) will never be able to work if the system doesn't have your password hash.
Windows 9x was not truly multi-user. They just had user profiles.

But as usual "Apple has yet to make an official acknowledgement of the problem", don't think I remember them owning up to any problem other than minor things like Mobile Me performance. Not saying they never fix reported problems just they never own up to them.

ROTFLMAOOOOO

So, dropping support causes these sort of issues .... and here I am thinking that adding support for hardware causes issues!!!!!!

Yeh but Microsoft doesn't claim their OS to be invincible, Apple does. And anyways a bug like this is as bad as it gets.

Yea, a bug like this is an EPIC FAILURE for the "darling" apple who makes "the best os"

Sorry dude... But this IS NOT the only flaw they've had. Snow Leopard has been riddled with problems.

they didn't test it!

Looks like they have a Software Verification problem.

They Apple edge over Windows is really quality of software engineering. This is therefore not a good sign.

.0 releases of OSX have always been bad. There was a problem with Leopard at one time where if you were moving files to a network share/USB... and for any reason that connection went down then the remaining files were deleted. So basically rather than copy & delete the source only if the copy was successful it would delete regardless!

my my, that's terrible!

Lol

Time machine comes for free with the OS.

I was wondering about the same when I read this:

clean installs? those are for windows users only

No they're not.

Haha...You should check your source

Surely Steve can't really try and poke fun at Windows, as he usually does, at the next WDC after this.

lol.

Unsure, I haven't actually been able to find someone who's been willing to sacrifice their mac in the name of science yet.

Just count the reports of people who have actually been affected. It's rare.

The repro steps require you have the Guest account enabled in Leopard, upgrade to Snow Leopard, and not do anything with the Guest account settings. I'm not sure if there is anything more specific you need to have, but that's from what I gathered.

I can't repro this issue on machine that I did a clean install of Snow Leopard. I'll try it on the machine that I upgraded from Leopard when I get home, but I didn't have the Guest account enabled so I'm guessing it won't repro there either.

Yeah, it doesn't seem that "rare" seeing as most people would have upgraded in the first place

thats probably one of the people who lost their files!

Yeah 1.6 sanitiazes your system to make way for 2.0

Yeh that would be original.

You can't get your stuff back actually?

Apple users have voiced their opinions and acknowledged the bug. We are just not as loud as the trolls.