Microsoft accused of using deceptive marketing to tout Vista

Prior to the availability of Vista, Microsoft launched a marketing campaign that allowed PC makers to place a sticker on computers alerting potential buyers that they could upgrade to Vista when it became available. According to a lawsuit filed against Microsoft Corporation, the software giant unfairly labelled PCs as "Windows Vista Capable" even when "a large number" of the computers could only run the Home Basic Edition of the new operating system, which lacks many of the features that Microsoft advertised. The lawsuit, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Washington, seeks class action status (exceeding 10,000 people) and asks for damages (exceeding $5 million).

In addition, when Microsoft later offered buyers of "Windows Vista Capable" computers free or reduced-price upgrades to Vista, the company offered Home Basic to many customers. "In sum, Microsoft engaged in bait and switch--assuring consumers they were purchasing 'Vista Capable' machines when, in fact, they could obtain only a stripped-down operating system lacking the functionality and features that Microsoft advertised as 'Vista'," the suit reads. Microsoft argues that it "conducted a broad effort to educate computer manufacturers, retailers and consumers about the hardware requirements to run different versions of Windows Vista," said Microsoft spokesperson Jack Evans. That program is well-documented and the information can still be found online.

News source: ComputerWorld

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Makes me wonder who is more stupid... the guy who sued McDonald's for selling coffee without a note that it's hot, or this guy who sues Microsoft for claiming that vista basic capable computers are vista capable?

Point is, the computer sold is Vista capable, no matter how the consumer puts it. If the consumer was ignorant, it's not Microsoft's fault. I don't see how Microsoft lied, their advertising wasn't misleading if you ask me. Besides, what did Microsoft make their Windows Vista website for if nobody read it?

A web page for the ignorant: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/...ons/choose.mspx

paolo90 said,
Makes me wonder who is more stupid... the guy who sued McDonald's for selling coffee without a note that it's hot, or this guy who sues Microsoft for claiming that vista basic capable computers are vista capable?

your analogy is flawed. do u need a coffee salesman or a coffee consultant or to bring a friend who knows a lot about coffee when buying a cup of coffee from macdonald's? or, have you, as a novice drinker, ever needed to go to http://www.mcdonalds.com/coffee/products/h...ons/choose.mspx to compare for different 'editions' of coffee?

"oh sir, this coffee is hotness capable. that one is hotness ready."

On the contrary, the onus is precisely on Microsoft (and any manufacturer/advertiser) to ensure their product naming and advertising practices clearly distinguish significant and product-altering differences.

The onus is not on the consumer to become an expert in a product before purchasing. However, the level of marketplace expertise is something individual to each field. e.g. Car manufacturers can rely on the marketplace being well educated in the way their products are sold so can cut some corners by offering option packages on their cars but still calling them the same model name. McDonalds can reasonably rely on the fact that the marketplace is well aware that coffee is hot, so don't need to call their product "hot coffee". However, even their products make significant name changes where significant and product-altering differences exist. You don't see "Big Mac Premium" and "Big Mac Basic" - you see "Big Mac" and "Quarter Pounder". Why? The burgers aren't that different, but they are different enough to be significant and thus warrant different names. Sometimes here in Aus you get McDonalds offering a burger that is basically a quarter pounder with an extra layer of meat - but they don't call it "Quarter Pounder Premium", they call it a totally new name (something like "Triple Decker" or similar).

Microsoft have simply shot themselves in the foot by offering significantly different products but sticking to one naming convention.

I'll give you another example that's a bit more close to home. Here in Australia we've got a car called a Ford Falcon. It's a 4dr sedan. Like most cars, you can get a Falcon Executive (basic model), Falcon Sports (gets a spoiler and fancy exhaust) and a couple other variants. But they are all called "Falcon". Now, Ford also offer a car called a "Fairmont". It is essentially a Falcon with a whole lot of options added and a new front grille design. Why did they call that a Fairmont, and not simply "Falcon Premium"? Because there are enough significant differences to warrant a new product line. It helps customers make clear distinctions, through advertising and product knowledge. Take into account that this is in a marketplace which is well established and has a customer expertise rating second to none.

Another example? Racehorses. You don't call them "Horse Basic" and "Horse Premium", because customers would probably have no idea what that meant - a horse is a horse, right? 4 legs, runs a bit, eats grass, right? Well, you have mares, geldings, colts, fillies, stallions etc. Why? Because even though they are all essentially the same animals, there are significant differences in what you use them for.

If Microsoft had simply renamed their "Vista Premium" to something like "Glassium", people would instantly be able to tell there was a difference. Instead, having all Vistas under the same name simply produces confusion for the marketplace. The operating system market is not well established and has a low expertise customer base so the marketing should go out of its way to ensure customers don't get confused.

Regarding this lawsuit, it seems obvious that the disgruntled customers have bought hardware based on the following train of thought: I've seen Vista advertised on TV and want it -> Vista means "glassy windows" and snazziness -> This PC is labelled "Vista Ready" -> Buy this PC since it will give me "glassy windows" and snazziness. That is a reasonable and understandable train of thought as a consumer, since MS have directed most of their marketing dollars at equating the word "Vista" to the Aero interface. The very word Vista even refers to sceneries and views - i.e. a visual thing. It will now be up to a court to decide if the advertising campaign for Vista provided significant distinctions between the various capabilites of each version, enough that the average consumer off the street would be able to differentiate in their own mind between "Basic" and "Premium".

devish said,

your analogy is flawed. do u need a coffee salesman or a coffee consultant or to bring a friend who knows a lot about coffee when buying a cup of coffee from macdonald's? or, have you, as a novice drinker, ever needed to go to http://www.mcdonalds.com/coffee/products/h...ons/choose.mspx to compare for different 'editions' of coffee?

"oh sir, this coffee is hotness capable. that one is hotness ready."


It wasn't even supposed to have any analogy to it :P
Point is, they're both stupid.

As for the other post...
There was enough distinction made, what do you want them to call Vista Basic anyways? Windows XP Advance or something of the sort?

Windows Vista "Capable"... if I were a consumer, I'd ask right away why one's just "Capable" and the other's "PREMIUM Capable." Apparently, the consumers were smart enough to do an impulse buy, not Microsoft's fault they advertised their product well enough for someone to do that.

Besides, a Windows Vista Capable PC is capable of Vista no matter how anybody puts it. I may be capable of drawing, but may not be capable of drawing as good as others, like your PC may be able to run Vista, but not as good as others.

The average consumer doesn't care what he/she gets as long as it works. What I mean is the people that don't pay attention to the technical details of things, whether it's cars, computers, etc. Most people do not know something is wrong until they see it on their local news channel at 5 after they've gotten home from their overpaid job.

Home Premium or Basic isn't that bad, unless you like to play with networking stuff, such as NetWare then otherwise I would just get Ultimate, or Business/Enterprise.

Although I always been against OEMs for putting together Celeron-based POS machines with integrated graphics, I do blame the consumer for not doing their research, because don't you do a bit of research when you buy something big, like a car or a house? Computers are not change out of the pocket, of course, unless you are very rich.

Also, how many people you know that are like the above actually use stuff like the Media Center? I've never seen it yet. So I believe Home Basic is good enough to be put on those POS overpriced Celeron machines that everyone buys because they're cheaper than the Duos.

My Samsung X60plus laptop came with a Vista Capable sticker on, Samsung have released no Vista drivers for it and it now ships with the old XP sticker on.

Not just Microsoft who are to blame here.

kravex said,
My Samsung X60plus laptop came with a Vista Capable sticker on, Samsung have released no Vista drivers for it and it now ships with the old XP sticker on.

Not just Microsoft who are to blame here.


Who else if not MS?
MS allowed Samsung to put the sticker on and MS made a full specification on how the sticker should look.

For this very reason I spoke to Jim Allchin back in January. I told him then that it looked deceptive and didn't really do much good for Microsoft in the long term by advertising half assed budget PC's as "Vista Capable".

I'm not surprised this is happening and I can only hope Microsoft has learned from it.

Obviously the people suing have no idea how to read. "Windows Vista Capable" never has advertised it would run Vista in all it's glory, it only means the hardware the sticker is attached too can run the "Vista core experience" and additional hardware may be needed for the full experience. I was looking at the box for a "Vista Capable" laptop today and it had a huge sticker on the side with all the small print explaining that Capable does not necessarily equal full experience.

I dont want to generalize, but how often do you get someone in a computer store advising buyers of budget PC's telling them truthfully about an operating system they themselves have probably not even used (or was even out yet) when these stickers were being placed.

All everyone saw was the fantastic glass theme and effects that can only be used on Direct X9 capable PC's.

Budget PC's usually have poor (on-board) video cards that use shared memory, so no Aero there. Ever.

As i see it its verry simple... "Windows Vista Capable" means it can/should run ALL versions of vista, in my opinion, but that is a LIE in many cases...

It should be "Windows Vista BASIC Capable" or "Windows Vista PREMIUM Capable" instead

Yeah that is misleading and a lawsuit is well in place...

wait.. you mean like vista CAPABLE and vista READY? WOW it's almost like microsoft did EXACTLY that.

Vista capable means it can run vista. (ANY version of vista. as long as Aero glass / desktop composition is turned off.)

Vista READY means it can take advantage of all the features.

Rolith said,
Vista capable means it can run vista. (ANY version of vista. as long as Aero glass / desktop composition is turned off.)

Turn off Aero glass / desktop composition on Home Premium and what you get is? Home basic...

The fact is they want to sell you premium or ultimate even if you cant run it in "ful glory" and you would get the same for less money... and they do it on purpose (with lies) just to get money from you.
That is wrong.

Kirkburn said,

Er, no.

er, yeah. Thats the main difference, plus it IS upgradeable... the only hardware restrictions are really related to glass:

The itemized list of differences is as follows:

scheduled backup
Aero glass / glass effects (flip 3d, live thumbnails, etc)
16 GB RAM max vs 8
games
media center
move maker HD support (basic does not have HD support)
DVD maker
5 max network connections vs 10
reduced windows meeting space capability
network projector support
presentation settings
tablet pc and touch screen support


Editions info:
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_02.asp

Euurggh silly bitch (it's mainly one woman with bug up her ass... and it's not one from Vista).

If she is so bothered about false advertising she should go after Apple also.

I'd probably blame the manufacturer more than Microsoft. The OEM oughta know more about their own equipment than MS would. MS didn't force the OEM to put the sticker on. I'm trying this dellvistaupgrade site, mostly because good ol dell has now sent me a third model in February and since the site claims if I got the thing from Oct-March I get a free (shipping is $10) Vista Business upgrade I'm apt to try it. Everything though on the site warned it had to have at least 512 mb of ram and might not support everything. Whatever they sent me was a alot more than my old machine.
Think the 2 gb of Ram will suffice. Not sure what to do with a 512mb video card yet. But it runs Painkiller just fine and thats what counts :P

As for doing one's research from wikipedia. Sites okay, but not very trustworthy. (I'll probably ignore the piece on mullet's for now O_O )

If the OEM wants to sell Windows then as part of the agreement they have to put those designed for stickers on them.

Geez, when is this cash grabbing scam gonna stop?

How is it Microsoft's fault if dell badges their el'cheapo $800AUD POS computers as Vista Capable (Which clearly they weren't) and people are stupid enough to buy them?
How is it Microsoft's fault if people don't ask questions regarding their purchase, or the staff working at the stores where these BS products were sold are not educated in the product they're selling?

Why is it people consider this Microsoft's fault? Do people go and purchase cars because it looks good in a certain shade of blue, but without going for a test drive/looking inside it? Or do they buy big screen televisions w/o looking at it with a picture on the screen (i.e. go in the store, close your eyes, spin around and whatever telly you end up pointing to is your purchase)? Of course not, no one is that stupid to go and spend a large amount of money without RESEARCH and ASKING QUESTIONS, except these 10,000 retards obviously, either that or they're in it for the money.

Like many have said, the consumer needs to take resposiblility for his or her choices no matter how uninformed they are.
However, I am sick of the deceptive tactics companies employ and they all do it. Car ads show the top of the line car and flash the base price everywhere only leaving the truth somewhere in the small print if you noticed the *. Deception should not be tolerated or allowed, while the consumer is liable for the ignorant choices they make law makers should extend the protection the claim to offer to us from so called bad people to corporations who are commiting greater crimes. People suing like this is just a cash grab but the misleading info companies give is the same so ultimately its perfect union

The comparison to other products, such as cars, is erroneous. The car market hasn't changed the way it operates for over 40 years, thus it is reasonable to say the marketplace is well educated. The concept of "option packs" or "luxury" models of the same car is not a new one and is well established. Therefore, a manufacturer need not advertise every single option pack for a model, it need only show its best pack and allow consumers to research the distinction themselves.

Microsoft have basically done the same thing with Vista. However, the problem is that the PC operating system market is only in its infancy, and has nowhere near the level of understanding in the marketplace that the car market has. This is really the first time there have been significant, hardware dependent differences between the various "option packs" of an MS operating system. While XP Home, Pro and MCE differed in their bundled applications, the hardware requirements and user experience were essentially identical. They all came with the same GUI, they all offered the same application compatibility and they all ran on pretty much the same hardware. However, Vista offers three versions that not only have significant hardware requirement differences, but also offer very different user experiences. The difference, for example, between Aero and non-Aero is probably the biggest distinction to the average user.

So, where car manufacturers can feel reasonably confident that potential buyers are aware there are various option levels available for their cars, Microsoft can't rely on the same awareness for their product. Car manufacturers spent a lot of money educating the marketplace, where it seems Microsoft have spent very little making it clear there are significant differences between the product they advertise on TV and the product you may end up getting if you don't purchase the right version of Vista.

The obvious evidence of this is that there are disappointed customers, who reasonably believed "Vista Ready" meant "the Vista-you've-seen-advertised-on-TV ready" The onus is not on the customer to be an expert in the marketplace - the onus is on the advertiser to ensure they understand their market and pitch their product in a clear, unambiguous way.

ElTorqiro said,
The obvious evidence of this is that there are disappointed customers, who reasonably believed "Vista Ready" meant "the Vista-you've-seen-advertised-on-TV ready" The onus is not on the customer to be an expert in the marketplace - the onus is on the advertiser to ensure they understand their market and pitch their product in a clear, unambiguous way.
MS provides a lot of documentation about what the different stickers mean. They don't try and hide it, and the exact specs of each Vista edition are well advertised.

Not only that but Microsoft helps customers decide, on the Vista website, which edition is right for them. They couldn't have made it easier.

I stand by the fact that the onus is on the manufacturer to ensure the marketplace is educated enough to make reasonable buying decisions. The onus is not on the customer to be an expert on the foibles and vagaries of various offerings of a product.

This is not an issue related to the fact that it's Microsoft, or that it has something to do with computers. It is a fundamental aspect of trading in the marketplace.

I hate making analogies in this area since it is really dependent on the particular market in question, but say, for example, that hammers were new products. Pretend you know very little about them except that you need one to build a house. Now, say MS release a new range of hammers, and all over the place they advertise their hammer as being able to hit nails into wood, and pull nails out again with the claw end. There are TV ads showing people hitting nails and yanking them out again. Snazzy! They call it "MS Hammer". So, before Mr X starts to build his house he goes to the hardware shop and asks for the new MS Hammer. He walks to the tools section of the shop and picks up a hammer that has a sticker on it saying "Nail Management Ready" and is called "MS Hammer Basic". There is also another hammer next to it that has a sticker saying "Premium Nail Management Ready" and is called "MS Hammer Premium". "MS Hammer Basic" is a bit cheaper and only comes in black, and Mr X has seen the tv ads showing MS Hammer bashing nails and yanking them out, so he buys "MS Hammer Basic" - it's labelled "Nail Management Ready" after all. After a month, Mr X starts building his house and discovers that while "MS Hammer Home Basic" allows him to hit nails into wood, it doesn't have the claw end so he can't pull nails out. Oh no! Little did he realise that to yank nails out of wood, which he's seen on all the TV adverts for "MS Hammer", he needed to buy "MS Hammer Premium" version.

What Mr X didn't realise is that tucked away somewhere on a web site, but never seen on the TV or in the glossy screenshot brochures, there is a comparison chart showing just what features you get with the various "MS Hammer" products. Mr X relied on the flooded TV ads to gain his understanding of the MS Hammer product line, all of which shows nails being bashed and yanked.

Now, who is at fault here? Is the onus on Mr X to be an expert in "MS Hammer", or hammer products in general, before making his purchase? Or is the onus on the manufacturer to ensure, through their advertising, that customers are generally aware there are significant differences in the offerings of products under the name "MS Hammer"? In Western marketplaces that decision was made a long time ago - the onus is on the manufacturer / advertiser to clearly distinguish significant differences in their products.

This is really only an issue because MS have decided to publish a range of operating systems under the name "Vista", which have significant and product-altering differences. It's not like the difference between XP Home and XP Pro, where the differences are not obvious or product-altering. If MS had simply called one product "Sad Looking OS" and another one "Fancy Graphics OS" people would obviously be aware there were significant differences - calling them both "Vista" at best is confusing and at worst misleading.

Once again consumers don't want to take responsibility for themselves and want to go for a cash grab instead of working for a living. Guess what? Microsoft clearly outlined what "vista Capable" and 'Vista Premium" mean. If you see a sticker that says 'Vista Capable' and you assume it will run everything perfectly then you have no one to blame for you ignorance but yourself.

Any computer running any OS with its stated bare minimum requirements will not look or perform as well as a system with better specs. That's why Microsoft made two different classifications and stickers.

They couldn't have made it easier for you. Sorry that your Vista Capable PC just isn't good enough for you but instead of getting frustrated at Microsoft you should just accept that you lacked the intelligence to purchase the computer that was right for you. Blame yourself and move forward. Perhaps apply for a job if you're short on cash.

Clearly these people don't understand what "bait and switch" means.

This is absolutely no different than people who purchase music on iTunes then want to sue Apple because the songs won't play on devices other than iPod. Well, take 5 seconds and do your homework. You should know this before you make your purcahse. If you want music to play on devices other than iPod here's a tip: Don't buy music from iTunes. Duh.

If you want a computer that runs all the features of Vista make sure you get a Vista premium computer, not Vista capable. I hope this gets thrown out of court with the judge laughing his butt off.

C_Guy said,
Guess what? Microsoft clearly outlined what "vista Capable" and 'Vista Premium" mean. If you see a sticker that says 'Vista Capable' and you assume it will run everything perfectly then you have no one to blame for you ignorance but yourself.

If you hadn't heard there was a "Vista Premium" - and that means a lot of average joes - "Vista Capable" is certainly misleading.

Once again a corporation doesn't want to take responsibility and admit fault for defrauding/misleading consumers.

I think they have a pretty strong case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_and_switch

I'm really surprised that Microsoft's compliance dept approved this marketing/propaganda tactic. Someone is going to be looking for a new job.

Just because you can look up things on the Internet doesn't make you right. Your own reference clearly says "a bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute good is." For this to be a "bait and switch" situation, the consumer would have been "lured" in with Vista and then offered a "substitute" such as a computer with XP.

I'd love to see her explain to a judge how she is a victom of bait and switch. "Well, your honour, I thought I was getting Windows Vista and instead I was offered Windows Vista".

While you're learning about marketing terms on Wikipedia, you might want to also look up fraud. I doubt you will see Microsoft mentioned. You see, a consumer failing to do her own research before committing to a purchase makes her ignorant, not a victim of fraud.

This is nothing but a pathetic cash grab. I hope she is counter-sued for wasting Microsoft's and the taxpayer's time and money.

In my opinion, this lawsuit is BS. Microsoft didn't do anything wrong; the PCs with that sticker are capable of running Windows Vista. Just because people can't get Aero and go "ooooo" every time they minimize something doesn't merit a lawsuit. You got exactly what they said you would: a PC that is Vista-capable.

No one can say that Vista is "better" than XP because every user of both OSs will have his or her own views. Personally I'm quite happy with XP because my computer does everything I need it to, but that doesn't mean I think Vista is bad or inferior. People are way too intolerant of each other. But I digress.

Ignorance is no one's fault but your own. Microsoft had all the necessary information available to people purchasing new PCs before Vista came out when the "Vista capable/Vista premium ready" stickers were in full swing. As with any big purchase, one should research and make a smart choice before laying down multiple hundreds of dollars (or any other currency). It's not that hard to go online and learn a little about the various editions of Vista and what the corresponding stickers mean.

But that's asking too much of people.

Even worse, they should get in trouble for not "CLEARLY" identifying Capable/Premium on the sticker. ALL the Vista computers have XP/Vista Capable stickers, but I only saw a special Vista Premium Ready sticker on the box of my new computer!

Still, I think they shouldn't have done this Vista Home Basic thing in the first place.

At this logic, the customers should be suing car makers for showing cars on TV with all the optional features included yet say "This model available for $15,999"... Now, they're not saying that I can get the car with all those features for that, they're saying I can get their basic model for $15,999, and the extras cost more.

People should just grow up and not be so sue happy.

On the car commercials they say M.S.R.P. and that other extras cost more. All the computers I've seen advertised say "Vista Ready". They don't say "Vista Premium" or "Vista Ultimate" ready.

C'mon, of cause Vista PREMIUM ready MUST be better than just Vista [no special supercool adjective here] CAPABLE...
even my GRANMA would get that.
and even my granma would get that OF CAUSE they don't leave out some features that are premium-only in their ads...

Glassed Silver:mac

Even if it is Vista Home Basic, It is far more superior than XP...blaming the company without research what the product is somekinda non-acceptable..

if an advertisement says "4 people seat" capable car , it means that 4 people can sit it in...but the same car has an premium version which has 6 seater...so, without knowing this if you buy a 4 seater car, its your mistake...

For me, home-premium is fine..and its working smoothly without any issues :-)

Only thing I see that they did "wrong" was the free upgrade to Vista coupons, they made it seem you would be able to upgrade at any time when you ready. Of course the program ended last month on the 30th :P

Nope.
It was clearly stated in the info booklets that were shipped with those PCs and laptops.
Although, one could of mixed up this with the term "Anytime Upgrade", but that's a totally different story

Glassed Silver:mac

Nope.
It was clearly stated in the info booklets that were shipped with those PCs and laptops.
Although, one could of mixed up this with the term "Anytime Upgrade", but that's a totally different story

That's exactly the OPs' point. How'd you managed to miss that one?

I hate to break it to anyone, but Vista Home Basic is NOT stripped down (the other editions are only beefed up). The only stripped down version of Vista is Starter. The sticker said that it would run Vista, and it does. Even if it's only Vista Home Basic.

I hate to break it to YOU but EVERY version of Vista except for Ultimate is stripped down crippleware. From the Ultimate Extras like DreamScene to the Aero interface and proper networking support (business AND home users), only Vista Ultimate has ALL of the features you see in the ads and articles touting Vista.

Vista - it's too damned expensive and too damned segmented. Anything less than Ultimate is a RIP OFF.

excalpius said,
I hate to break it to YOU but EVERY version of Vista except for Ultimate is stripped down crippleware. From the Ultimate Extras like DreamScene to the Aero interface and proper networking support (business AND home users), only Vista Ultimate has ALL of the features you see in the ads and articles touting Vista.

Vista - it's too damned expensive and too damned segmented. Anything less than Ultimate is a RIP OFF.


I disagree - Windows Vista Home Basic, Windows Vista Home Premium, and Windows Vista Business are all fully capable operating systems. Home Premium, Business, and Ultimate all have Windows Aero, and if your computer has a graphics card capable of running Aero or has WDDM drivers, Windows Vista Home Basic also has a desktop composition engine enabled desktop.

Windows Vista is better than Windows XP, it doesn't matter what edition you're running. It's more secure, it's more stable, and it's a lot more intuitive.

iCeFuSiOn said,
Windows Vista is better than Windows XP, it doesn't matter what edition you're running. It's more secure, it's more stable, and it's a lot more intuitive.

Windows Vista Basic is BARELY better than XP. Is this Vista Gimped edition (with nothing but bug fixes and minor UI enhancements) worth $100 to upgrade from XP? No friggin way.

Nothing but bug fixes? Alright, at first I thought you didn't have a clue what you were talking about but now I KNOW you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Vista is an all-around much better OS than XP. I would elaborate, but you're not going to listen anyway.

excalpius said,

Windows Vista Basic is BARELY better than XP. Is this Vista Gimped edition (with nothing but bug fixes and minor UI enhancements) worth $100 to upgrade from XP? No friggin way.


you have missed a lot of news on neowin, dude.
don't think you know vista from some strange videos you've seen on NBC or something.
they don't really tell you the major improvements because average joe doesn't even have a clue wtf what means.
THIS and only this is why the news pretty much only tell you of the graphical improvements and new search etc...
I could build an XP that is just like what the news are describing, when it comes to the >engine< you will fail to see a lot of stuff in XP.

Glassed Silver:mac

pixels said,
Nothing but bug fixes? Alright, at first I thought you didn't have a clue what you were talking about but now I KNOW you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Vista is an all-around much better OS than XP. I would elaborate, but you're not going to listen anyway.

First time you've read an excalpius post ? :p

For those that actually have used the stuff(in this case vista) and know what they are talking about (basic tech knowledge or vista knowledge) the people who go around trash talking vista without knowing anything about it other than secondhand knowledge yet pretending like they used it since beta... they quickly reveal themselves.

excalpius said,
I hate to break it to YOU but EVERY version of Vista except for Ultimate is stripped down crippleware. From the Ultimate Extras like DreamScene to the Aero interface and proper networking support (business AND home users), only Vista Ultimate has ALL of the features you see in the ads and articles touting Vista.

Vista - it's too damned expensive and too damned segmented. Anything less than Ultimate is a RIP OFF.

I actually asked the users of this forum what Ultimate features that they like and are glad they upgraded to the Ultimate edition. From what I read of the Ultimate posts, I didn't read anything that was compelling me to get Ultimate over Home Premium. Maybe if it were only an additional $50 as oppose to $100.

http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...amp;hl=Ultimate

Others should read and decide for themselves before purchasing.

HawkMan said,

First time you've read an excalpius post ? :p

For those that actually have used the stuff(in this case vista) and know what they are talking about (basic tech knowledge or vista knowledge) the people who go around trash talking vista without knowing anything about it other than secondhand knowledge yet pretending like they used it since beta... they quickly reveal themselves.


Well said, dude, well said.

Glassed Silver:mac

Shadrack said,

I actually asked the users of this forum what Ultimate features that they like and are glad they upgraded to the Ultimate edition. From what I read of the Ultimate posts, I didn't read anything that was compelling me to get Ultimate over Home Premium. Maybe if it were only an additional $50 as oppose to $100.

http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...amp;hl=Ultimate

Others should read and decide for themselves before purchasing.

Ultimate isn't really necessary, I have ultimate but thta's mostly because that's what I chocse when I installed RTM after RC2 and then the x64 English OEM was apparently impossiblye for retailers to get voer here so I had to wait extra long for that and I didn't feel like reinstalling. I also wanted dreamscene and such and I'm kind of a techie so I just wanted the big version to play with.

But very few people really need ultimate. Anyone who say ultimate is the only real version and the others are dumbed down, doesn't know what he's talking about.

Get home premium, it's got everything you need, and if you don't want glass, get home Basic, it's still got everything you need, except for Media center and such extras.

I hate to break it to anyone, but Vista Home Basic is NOT stripped down (the other editions are only beefed up). The only stripped down version of Vista is Starter. The sticker said that it would run Vista, and it does. Even if it's only Vista Home Basic.

From a marketing standpoint, that's true. But from a development stand-point, it's not true. Think about it, vista media center is not included in the home basic version, the version to which you claimed as the 'standard' vista, and yet, the media center is very deeply intergrated into the OS, and you'd probably find media center related device drivers in home basic. It's always easier to remove a component from piece of a software than it is to add one. (additional testing, bugs may appear)

Coolme said,

From a marketing standpoint, that's true. But from a development stand-point, it's not true. Think about it, vista media center is not included in the home basic version, the version to which you claimed as the 'standard' vista, and yet, the media center is very deeply intergrated into the OS, and you'd probably find media center related device drivers in home basic. It's always easier to remove a component from piece of a software than it is to add one. (additional testing, bugs may appear)

Not quite true,

Media center is certainly not something every one will need. Also media center doesn't need device drivers as such, MC is a combination of a Windows shell and 2 or 3 programs/services running in the background to provide for media extenders to hook up to it. without thel shell and these services, therw won't be a trace of MC on that Vista.

Media Center does use other libraries from windows however, such as WMP libraries for playback and deciding and such. But those aren't part of Media center, they're things that are part of the OS or other OS apps/libraries that Media center uses.

excalpius said,

Windows Vista Basic is BARELY better than XP. Is this Vista Gimped edition (with nothing but bug fixes and minor UI enhancements) worth $100 to upgrade from XP? No friggin way.


Windows Vista Basic is not merely bug fixes... The entire kernel has been overhauled, making it far more secure than XP will ever be. Consider Basic to be stripped down in terms of UI, but the underlying code is exactly the same.

Companies need to stop marketing products with deceptive practices designed to render the buyer ignorant of product distinctions.

You must just have some agenda against Microsoft. Go away, troll.

WTF is that about? If this was dlink or verizon, or any other company practicing deceptive sale tactics, people will still complain about it, this issue is not microsoft specific. Also, your comment is implying that a 'troll' is defined as a person who publicly expresses discontent towards microsoft, which in perspective, will make you the troll.

Capable or Premium Ready? that's the killer point.

Was it capable yes, did they give you Vista, yes. Was it what you hoped for, no but you should have researched instead of trusted a sticker.

Except that the whole reason Microsoft had the "Vista Capable" versus "Vista Premium Ready" was to confuse the novice user into buying a machine ahead of the Vista release. Since these two stickers wouldn't be side by side on computers with different capabilities, the word "Vista" was all they needed to see.

So, MS and the OEMs got what they wanted. Suckers. I'm glad they're being sued. The uber-segmentation of Vista is a friggin marketing catastrophe.

The "novice user" shouldn't be buying a computer in the first place if they're too incompetent to do some research on what those stickers meant. This is not Microsoft's fault and they shouldn't be sued for it.

pixels said,
The "novice user" shouldn't be buying a computer in the first place if they're too incompetent to do some research on what those stickers meant. This is not Microsoft's fault and they shouldn't be sued for it.

Pretty much every company lies about minimum specs and MS did it with Vista.

But MS's biggest Vista deception is not this however, it is that games can't use DX10 effects (SM 4.0) in XP. Stop trying to blackmail us into buying Vista, MS!

toadeater said,

Pretty much every company lies about minimum specs and MS did it with Vista.

But MS's biggest Vista deception is not this however, it is that games can't use DX10 effects (SM 4.0) in XP. Stop trying to blackmail us into buying Vista, MS!


WTF? What's the lie about the minimum specs? (I can run Vista Ultimate wonderfully on my 3 year old PC.)

And congratulations on making yourself look like a big tit with your DX10 comment. /golfclap

pixels said,
The "novice user" shouldn't be buying a computer in the first place if they're too incompetent to do some research on what those stickers meant. This is not Microsoft's fault and they shouldn't be sued for it.

So, using your super intelligent rationale, none of us should buy cars because we have no idea how the engine works ?