Microsoft employees embarrassed over Kin failure

Microsoft’s latest catastrophe, the Kin, has quickly become a huge embarrassment for Microsoft employees of all levels.  They only sold 10,000 units before killing the project, and internal embarrassment is quickly tuning into public knowledge of the dysfunctional operations at Microsoft. 

Businessinsider.com has gathered up quotes from current and previous Microsoft employees about the Kin project.  The employees cite leadership issues and failure to listen to employee feedback on the project as causes for poor market performance. 

We had a huge launch party on campus and I bet that party cost more than the amount of revenues we took in on the product.  As an employee, I am embarrassed.  As a shareholder, I am pissed.  It's one thing to incubate products and bring them to a proof-of-concept to see what works, but it's something else to launch.  I suspect we launched because we felt like we HAD to so we could save face because we were trying to build buzz, but overall - HUGE fail."

There are many employees voicing their frustrations, many of which can be read over at the minimsft website.  Somewhat less encouraging was this employee's comments on the issues:

Microsoft discovers its a bad idea after it blows up in the broad market. Absolutely no thanks to any pro-active decision making on Andy's part. Now there is spin that Andy killed kin to put all the wood behind Windows Phone 7. Er, the guy was in charge for two years of Kin development. He could have made this decision far earlier. Similarly Windows Phone 7 has two years of development under his watch. Based on his past performance, 99% chance this is also going to be a total catastrophe. It further doesn't help that much of the Windows Phone 7 leadership team was kicked out of Windows when they screwed up Vista.”

With presumably hundreds of millions of dollars or more spent on the Kin, having it only last a few weeks on the open market represents a colossal business failure at the most fundamental level.  It’s clear that Microsoft missed their target market by a long shot with its Kin and that employees were genuinely frustrated with management over the device.  Even more so, the same person who headed up the Kin project is now leading WP7, which is leaving employees on uneasy ground after the Kin launch. 

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IMO the market for this is gone.
People who are doing well in this economy go with iPhone, etc
People who are not doing well but NEED a phone go el cheapo.

I just thought of something, maybe MS said if this fails "which, to be honest I had a gut feeling it would..." then we start global redundancies...! To pay for the **** *p

Microsoft needs to stay away from hardware and focus on the software. They're a software company, not a hardware company. If they didn't work on the Zune and the Kin, then maybe Windows Mobile (or Windows Phone) could have been a more serious contender. After having tested a few Windows Mobile devices, I must say it falls flat on its face compared to other offerings such as the iPhone, BlackBerry, and Android.

MulletRobZ said,
Microsoft needs to stay away from hardware and focus on the software. They're a software company, not a hardware company. If they didn't work on the Zune and the Kin, then maybe Windows Mobile (or Windows Phone) could have been a more serious contender. After having tested a few Windows Mobile devices, I must say it falls flat on its face compared to other offerings such as the iPhone, BlackBerry, and Android.

I'd tend to agree, and I love my Zune HD

I didn't see a single positive comment regarding this phones aesthetics or the price, before it even saw store fronts. What did they expect?

One thing I know of if I'm a member of the team, I'll ask myself this: if I'm already using an iPhone or an Android phone at the moment, is there a reason for me to switch to Kin? And actually use other popular phones for a few weeks so you can compare whether the public would want it over exisiting ones

Hardly: no matter what the device is not seen as a HD so I cannot use it in my car to play music. it does not seem a very smart choice IMO.

I own a ZuneHD and despite commercial unsuccess, it is the best music player out there, period. There are numerous reviews that confirm it. It's interface is not only fully original but more functional, flexible and joyful to use than the old icon over desktop paradigm. You can navigate it linearly or non-linearly and it invites you to explore more about the artist you are playing, provides photos, bio, additional albums and songs, related artists that you can click and continue listening new music and explore more. There is nothing that compares to it. You have to use it to appreciate it. If you have not used it, please refrain from criticizing it, because I have used Ipods and others players and my library is huge. I have confidence in WP7 GUI because it is based on the same Zune GUI and inherits the same inviting, exploratory interface that, might be different, but is intuitive and a joy to discover and use.

A big difference here between Kin and WinPH7 is that we already know what WPH7 can do, we had NO idea what the Kin was until it was released, and the MORONS who let that one go into market with Verizon at the helm should be fired.

At what point does Microsoft just clean house and start fresh? They don't innovate, their best "ideas" are copies of what other companies are already doing, and Steve Ballmer can't keep his foot out of his mouth. They need some fresh, young, hungry blood in that company in the worst way. Maybe if Windows Phone 7 is the abject failure that I think it will be, that will be enough to convince people in Redmond that something is terribly wrong.

And yes, the WP7 UI is an abomination. Good Lord.

chaos_disorder said,
At what point does Microsoft just clean house and start fresh? They don't innovate, their best "ideas" are copies of what other companies are already doing, and Steve Ballmer can't keep his foot out of his mouth. They need some fresh, young, hungry blood in that company in the worst way. Maybe if Windows Phone 7 is the abject failure that I think it will be, that will be enough to convince people in Redmond that something is terribly wrong.

And yes, the WP7 UI is an abomination. Good Lord.

Yeah, what are they thinking trying to put a new type of UI on a smartphone? What are they trying to do? Innovate or something?

bj55555 said,

Yeah, what are they thinking trying to put a new type of UI on a smartphone? What are they trying to do? Innovate or something?

If you want to call that jumbled mess "innovation", then go right ahead.

chaos_disorder said,

If you want to call that jumbled mess "innovation", then go right ahead.

And what do you call innovation? A grid of icons on the screen? Oh wait! Folders containing grids of icons on a screen! Brilliant!

bj55555 said,

Yeah, what are they thinking trying to put a new type of UI on a smartphone? What are they trying to do? Innovate or something?

If the new type of UI is horrendous, who cares if it's "new". They could have one of those elephants that paint design the UI and it would be a "new type of UI". That doesn't meant it wouldn't suck and it doesn't mean the WP7 UI doesn't suck.

So...

There's this bandwaggon that people jump on. The "Windows ME" bandwaggon. A lot of people dislike ME basically because a lot of other people dislike ME. Me? I had no major issue with it technically.

The bandwaggon has evolved into "Product x is the Windows ME of sector y"...

However, to me, KIN is the Windows ME of the Windows Mobile platform. Bear with me...

I always felt ME was not necessary. It was a rushed OS between major releases that served no purpose other than "to have something out there", to basically let Microsoft market to an audience awaiting something more. And then dress it up as "this is the NOW thing".

To me, this is exactly what KIN was. Not WM7, not really 6/6.5, but something halfway, dressed in a "social skin" because social is oh-so-now.

Do it like Intel did: they killed Larabee BEFORE launch. Just kill Windows Phone 7. At least the UI. That thing is a shame.

How does kin even thinking about taking off with these few stuff...don't found any particulary useful as a secondary phone deivce since it's just have small screen.Seriously,spending two years time and effort can create something beyond what Windows 7 already archeive
the goal! Perhaps next generation Xbox Console

(Microsoft) WP7 is their last "New Hope" resurgence back to the competition

lordcanti86 said,
I drink the MS Kool-Aid, but the KIN was a bad idea especially with WP7 coming down the pipe

I agree. It watered down the Windows Phone brand. Windows Phone should only be used to refer to WP7. That's very important for WP7 to be a success.

hotdog963al said,
I'll be mildly amused of WP7 goes the same way, just for the fanboy reaction.

It's pretty much a given considering MS's history in the mobile sector.

LoveThePenguin said,

It's pretty much a given considering MS's history in the mobile sector.

You should load up on MSFT put options then. Be sure to post here telling us how much money you've made 6 weeks after the phones are released.

Scary stuff. The guy behind KIN is driving WP7. Spin it all you want MS, but knowing that makes this customer even more skeptical about WP7.

zeke009 said,
Scary stuff. The guy behind KIN is driving WP7. Spin it all you want MS, but knowing that makes this customer even more skeptical about WP7.

Meh. The support that they are putting behind WP7 should squash those worries. Plus all phones won't be as crippled as the KIN was. You still have the zune integration and you'll also get all the games thanks to XBL.

The big question now is, MS YOU CAN TRASH THESE BLOGS ALL YOU WANT, BUT ARE YOU LISTENING TO US??!!! LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE THAT USE THE STUFF! HEADS SHOULD ROLL OVER THIS MAN. WHOEVER FIXED WINDOWS 7 IS THE GUY YOU SHOULD BE LISTENING TOO. I fix computers for a living, and I am at a loss to find any large number of PROBLEMS with W7. It just works, what a concept!

techbeck said,
KIN was a bad bad bad bad idea anyway. Glad to see it gone.

Why? How does the existence of a phone in which you're not interested affect you?

Really? I think all they needed to do was have Verizon offer the phone subsidized w/o a data plan. Make the $30/mo data plan optional. If a user opts out of the data plan, then the phone can still do all the cool smartphone features and "sync-up" when it gets a WiFi connection.

I think that would have made the phone much more attractive to the target market (or at least the parents of the target market).

Microsoft employees embarrassed over KIN ...period
(failure or not)

Zune HD Phone would have been awesome... but consumer be damned, "business models" FTW

guru said,

Zune HD Phone would have been awesome... but consumer be damned, "business models" FTW

I hate to let you know this, but the zune was a commercial failure too.

LoveThePenguin said,

I hate to let you know this, but the zune was a commercial failure too.

Monetary wise maybe but Apple did well with their operating system despite the lack of market share. The zuneHD itself is an amazing devise and engineering wise I would say it was a success. Marketing wise it was bad.

To the reaction of a zune phone. This is what every WP7 device will be. Same style GUI and high hardware requirements.

To be honest from what I've seen WM7 is heading in the same direction....it has some good things but also some major flaws...hopefully MS can work them out before releasing

Rudy said,
To be honest from what I've seen WM7 is heading in the same direction....it has some good things but also some major flaws...hopefully MS can work them out before releasing
Yeah, like the entire GUI. If MS think they can go to market with that and not have a dismal failure, they've got a nasty surprise coming.

Ji@nBing said,
Yeah, like the entire GUI. If MS think they can go to market with that and not have a dismal failure, they've got a nasty surprise coming.

+ 1

Rudy said,
To be honest from what I've seen WM7 is heading in the same direction....it has some good things but also some major flaws...hopefully MS can work them out before releasing

Not only that, but this kind of stuff leaves a bad taste in the consumers mouth. How does a consumer know that MS won't pull the plug on Windows Phone 7 after a month of not selling as well as they had hoped? Sure, they probably won't do that given the fact that this is their "flag ship" smartphone OS... but they certainly have the propensity to.

Rudy said,
To be honest from what I've seen WM7 is heading in the same direction....it has some good things but also some major flaws...hopefully MS can work them out before releasing

could you elaborate on those said flaws?

Rudy said,
To be honest from what I've seen WM7 is heading in the same direction....it has some good things but also some major flaws...hopefully MS can work them out before releasing

You can't compare Windows Phone 7 with the Kin. First, Microsoft designed the OS and the specs for the phones but plays no part in the design and manufacturing of the devices themselves. The OS isn't locked into the success of a single manufacturer's hardware design. Second, WP7 phones won't be locked into the pricing model of a single carrier. Third, the OS was designed specifically for downloading (and purchasing) third party applications as well as media content. Fourth, Office Mobile and Exchange support.

bj55555 said,
You can't compare Windows Phone 7 with the Kin.

Why not? They're released by the same company. I think everyone knows not to buy MS phones now. I mean you can only release so many versions before the market disowns you lol.

bj55555 said,

The OS isn't locked into the success of a single manufacturer's hardware design.

But what hardware company is going to want to sell MS phones these days (except HTC and others who have no option due to MS patent trollin)?
bj55555 said,

Third, the OS was designed specifically for downloading (and purchasing) third party applications as well as media content. Fourth, Office Mobile and Exchange support.

But no developers are interested in creating apps for a crippled win32 api.

Rudy said,
To be honest from what I've seen WM7 is heading in the same direction....it has some good things but also some major flaws...hopefully MS can work them out before releasing

It was called Kin service pack 2, but they renamed it WM7.

LoveThePenguin said,

Why not? They're released by the same company. I think everyone knows not to buy MS phones now. I mean you can only release so many versions before the market disowns you lol.


But what hardware company is going to want to sell MS phones these days (except HTC and others who have no option due to MS patent trollin)?

But no developers are interested in creating apps for a crippled win32 api.


your last one is the most funniest thing.
Microsoft wanted to go 64bit with XP, but because developers and hardware manufactures didnt use it. they recoded WinXP to be 32bit.
Then microsoft retries with Vista... had to release a 32bit and 64bit version because of the developers (this time, hardware did move to 64bit).. same with Win7

I still see countless of developers making 32bit apps, or just port a 32bit app to 64bit app.... there are still relativly few actual 64bit applications.

Its not MS that keeps trailing behind on 32bit, its the developers.

LoveThePenguin said,

But no developers are interested in creating apps for a crippled win32 api.

It's a good thing WP7 doesn't have Win32 and is all Silverlight and XNA then! There are lots of developers interested in creating apps for those!!

LoveToTroll said,

But no developers are interested in creating apps for a crippled win32 api.

Keep telling yourself that.

Shadowzz said,

your last one is the most funniest thing.
Microsoft wanted to go 64bit with XP, but because developers and hardware manufactures didnt use it. they recoded WinXP to be 32bit.
Then microsoft retries with Vista... had to release a 32bit and 64bit version because of the developers (this time, hardware did move to 64bit).. same with Win7

I still see countless of developers making 32bit apps, or just port a 32bit app to 64bit app.... there are still relativly few actual 64bit applications.

Its not MS that keeps trailing behind on 32bit, its the developers.

Uhm, they did?

MS released a 64-bit version for Itaniums, then when AMD released the x64 line they eventually released an x64 version.

OEMs dragged their heels because of immature drivers (and the lack of need in most cases to address more than 4gb of RAM.)

I bought a Dell laptop in Feb of last year with 4gb of RAM and 512mb dedicated video memory. They still sent it with x32. It took them another 2-3 months until the laptop came with 4th as standard to ship x64. Thankfully I could just DL the x64 ISO from the net and use the product key on the bottom although Dell never responded to my requests for 64bit media.

NeoandGeo said,
It would have been more embarrassing if the thing had succeeded.

its all about the marketing, look at the iPad it was literally crap, yet it sold like crazy due to Apple's marketing, if Microsoft had been able to successfully promote the KIN, it would have also sold like crazy

Master1 said,

its all about the marketing, look at the iPad it was literally crap, yet it sold like crazy due to Apple's marketing, if Microsoft had been able to successfully promote the KIN, it would have also sold like crazy


Keep telling yourself that

Embarassing, Yes, however if they could just put it behind them and go full steam on Windows Phone 7 that would be great.
Hopefully Microsoft knows how important it is for Windows Phone 7 to be a success especially being almost 3 years late to the market. Look at Zune, its a great product, but poor advertising and late market entrance has cost them big time.
I really hope they learn from the Zune and Kin that they need a good impact on the market

gamestargrinder said,
Embarassing, Yes, however if they could just put it behind them and go full steam on Windows Phone 7 that would be great.
Hopefully Microsoft knows how important it is for Windows Phone 7 to be a success especially being almost 3 years late to the market. Look at Zune, its a great product, but poor advertising and late market entrance has cost them big time.
I really hope they learn from the Zune and Kin that they need a good impact on the market

IMO, late market entrance has been MS's big problem for about 15 years now. They always seem to trail behind. Copying a new idea, remodeling it ala MS and then putting it on the market. that's why they fail imo. not that their products are all crap, but they never seem to come up with the good ideas first and it always make market penetration so much more difficult.

Mouettus said,

IMO, late market entrance has been MS's big problem for about 15 years now. They always seem to trail behind. Copying a new idea, remodeling it ala MS and then putting it on the market. that's why they fail imo. not that their products are all crap, but they never seem to come up with the good ideas first and it always make market penetration so much more difficult.

Actually Microsoft has had some original good ideas, it just seems as if marketing is their problem

It's not marketing. Windows Phone 7 lacks any compelling features and has a divisive interface, one that I personally don't like. The Office team did well with their ribbon interface and Win7 righted many of the wrongs of Vista but both are long established products that are being refined. WP7 just doesn't seem to have anything new, it's just Microsoft trying to muscle in on the mobile scene.

Combining KIN with Windows Phone 7 doesn't seem like a natural move, especially when the competition is already much more focused and enjoying positive market recognition.

I think also the problem for Microsoft is that they are not used to not being on top in other markets. Meaning that Windows doesn't really need a huge marketing campaign, it practically sells it self. However other things like the Zune, Windows Phone and even Xbox are just added players in their respected markets meaning these require advertising. Microsoft just isn't good and promoting their other products, because well they never really had to especially with Windows.

theyarecomingforyou said,
It's not marketing. Windows Phone 7 lacks any compelling features and has a divisive interface, one that I personally don't like. The Office team did well with their ribbon interface and Win7 righted many of the wrongs of Vista but both are long established products that are being refined. WP7 just doesn't seem to have anything new, it's just Microsoft trying to muscle in on the mobile scene.

Combining KIN with Windows Phone 7 doesn't seem like a natural move, especially when the competition is already much more focused and enjoying positive market recognition.


your contradicting yourself.
WinMo7 is not a long established product?
So far its a good update/upgrade to the winmo6.

Shadowzz said,

your contradicting yourself.
WinMo7 is not a long established product?
So far its a good update/upgrade to the winmo6.

yeah i realized that shortly after posting.
basically what i meant is that Microsoft needs better marketing, Windows will sell fine without much help from ad campaigns. Zune I don't think I have ever seen a commercial or ad campaign for it, for Windows Phone to Succeed they need to advertise it well. Its not just about making a good product, but marketing it.

mackenziepricee said,
'Microsoft's latest catastrophe'

Brad, you talk about Microsoft like they often fail.


Windows ME & Windows Vista but to name two. And lets not forget Microsoft Bob!

Neobond said,

Windows ME & Windows Vista but to name two. And lets not forget Microsoft Bob!

Thats.... 3. In microsoft's what? 25 year history? Apple wishes it could only have had 3 flops.

Neobond said,

Windows ME & Windows Vista but to name two. And lets not forget Microsoft Bob!

Windows Vista?

Sure, it had it's fair share of problems but the majority of problems were the people who had never used the OS and just continued to say how bad it was.

Neobond said,

Windows ME & Windows Vista but to name two. And lets not forget Microsoft Bob!

Windows ME definitely, but Vista just had a bad perception, but it was far from a bad product
The KIN on the other hand... scary to hear that management is on WP7 now

AgentGray said,

Thats.... 3. In microsoft's what? 25 year history? Apple wishes it could only have had 3 flops.

I can only think of Apple Newton

Neobond said,

Windows ME & Windows Vista but to name two. And lets not forget Microsoft Bob!

They sold quite a lot of copies of Vista I thought, I would say that the release was a failure but the product was average.

mackenziepricee said,

Windows Vista?

Sure, it had it's fair share of problems but the majority of problems were the people who had never used the OS and just continued to say how bad it was.


Wrong... Win 7 is what Vista was suppose to be. When Vista came out I posted in the forum that it's days are numbered, that none at Microsoft was running this OS on their desktop, and that MS is working on a updated OS. I dont knwo if Neowin keeps this old of a post, but I got a sh*t load of criticism from different Neowin users. Later Win 7 came out and everyone forgot about Vista just as they forgot about Win ME.

mackenziepricee said,
'Microsoft's latest catastrophe'

Brad, you talk about Microsoft like they often fail.

I thought about that line for a bit but RROD, Vista, ME, Bob...sure not everything they throw out is crap...Bing, Win 7, Xp....i didnt intend for it to say they cant make anything good but they have had some bork ups in their past...

argentum76 said,

I can only think of Apple Newton

In the late '90s virtually every product that they sold prior to the iPod was pretty much a failure. The company was 2 months away from BK before Microsoft bailed them out with a $100m investment.

bj55555 said,

In the late '90s virtually every product that they sold prior to the iPod was pretty much a failure. The company was 2 months away from BK before Microsoft bailed them out with a $100m investment.


Correct, they had some major problem with management.... Still look at them now, their stock is at $260 and doing quite well...

Neobond said,

Windows ME & Windows Vista but to name two. And lets not forget Microsoft Bob!

Silverlight is also a failure :

Silverlight 1.0 is a rarity that you can find in some hideous developer site.
Silverlight 2.0 scarce used (mostly developer site and Microsoft web).
Silverlight 3.0 and Silverlight 4.0 not widely used (< 1% ) but at least it is used in some sites other that Microsoft/developer sites.

bdsams said,

I thought about that line for a bit but RROD, Vista, ME, Bob...sure not everything they throw out is crap...Bing, Win 7, Xp....i didnt intend for it to say they cant make anything good but they have had some bork ups in their past...

Really? Because while the RROD was a stuff up from Microsoft they delt with the problem really well. Your 360 was replaced and your warranty warranty was extended by a year You can't ask for much more. Plus, pretty much from Zephyr onwards the occurances of RROD's went down and it has been elimanated in the 360 S.

Euphoria said,

Wrong... Win 7 is what Vista was suppose to be. When Vista came out I posted in the forum that it's days are numbered, that none at Microsoft was running this OS on their desktop, and that MS is working on a updated OS. I dont knwo if Neowin keeps this old of a post, but I got a sh*t load of criticism from different Neowin users. Later Win 7 came out and everyone forgot about Vista just as they forgot about Win ME.

Yeah man and Windows 98 SE is what Windows 98 was ment to be and Windows 95 is what Windows 3.1 was ment to be.

We can say that for every operating system.

Magallanes said,

Silverlight is also a failure :

Silverlight 1.0 is a rarity that you can find in some hideous developer site.
Silverlight 2.0 scarce used (mostly developer site and Microsoft web).
Silverlight 3.0 and Silverlight 4.0 not widely used (< 1% ) but at least it is used in some sites other that Microsoft/developer sites.


Okay my friend. Very funny, very funny.

Last time I checked Bing Maps, based on Silveright, is the best mapping application availble for the public at the moment.
This just proves why Silveright is superiour.
http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/

argentum76 said,

I can only think of Apple Newton

Pippin
Lisa
AppleTV
Taligent OS
Virtually every PPC-based Macintosh
and the biggest fail of all: lawsuit against Microsoft and HP

bj55555 said,

In the late '90s virtually every product that they sold prior to the iPod was pretty much a failure. The company was 2 months away from BK before Microsoft bailed them out with a $100m investment.

Apple EWorld, Apple Pippin, 20th Anniversary Mac, Macintosh Portable, Lisa...

Even chuck the MacBook Air in there if you want to cause controversy.

mackenziepricee said,

Yeah man and Windows 98 SE is what Windows 98 was ment to be and Windows 95 is what Windows 3.1 was ment to be.
We can say that for every operating system.

Not if you release a new Operating System a year after Vista came out and you spent billion of dollars on marketing on Vista... Also naming it Win 7 instead of Vista SE tells you that they did not want to correlate Win 7 with Vista in any way, although when you look at it, Win 7 is optimized Vista with fixed bugs, resource management, and minor GUI makeup changes.
Vista was an unfinished OS, rushed to the market ...

Euphoria said,

Not if you release a new Operating System a year after Vista came out and you spent billion of dollars on marketing on Vista... Also naming it Win 7 instead of Vista SE tells you that they did not want to correlate Win 7 with Vista in any way, although when you look at it, Win 7 is optimized Vista with fixed bugs, resource management, and minor GUI makeup changes.
Vista was an unfinished OS, rushed to the market ...

Lol oh please. You are a funny one!

What ever helps you sleep at night.

mackenziepricee said,

Lol oh please. You are a funny one!

What ever helps you sleep at night.


Haha It's highly unlikely that what MS and Apple do will affect my sleep patern
We are just having a discussion about why MS keeps playing the safe card while sacrificing innovation...

Euphoria said,

Actually I like Bing Maps. I like what they've done with it.

Bing Maps might be good for USA but outside of USA google map is better. Lots of small roads, lakes and rivers are missing from bing maps right now.

mackenziepricee said,

Okay my friend. Very funny, very funny.

Last time I checked Bing Maps, based on Silveright, is the best mapping application availble for the public at the moment.
This just proves why Silveright is superiour.
http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/


Only MS uses silverlight. No one else does. It's flash or html5. sliverlight is just like the kin, a complete and abject failure.

LoveThePenguin said,

Only MS uses silverlight. No one else does. It's flash or html5. sliverlight is just like the kin, a complete and abject failure.

And why are folks sticking with Flash and HTML? It's the comfort factor; they aren't going to move to something different if they don't have to! (Generally, about the only time a company Website changes is when a new site designer/Webmaster/Webmistress is brought in.) It's why VP8 has also gone nowhere. And just how long did it take for Flash to get its foothold?

Magallanes said,
Silverlight is also a failure :

Silverlight 1.0 is a rarity that you can find in some hideous developer site.
Silverlight 2.0 scarce used (mostly developer site and Microsoft web).
Silverlight 3.0 and Silverlight 4.0 not widely used (< 1% ) but at least it is used in some sites other that Microsoft/developer sites.

Try again. How about MLB.com's subscription service. it uses silverlight. (v3.0)
How about WWE, their online streaming uses Silverlight (v3.0)
How about the NBC/CTV/(norweigan network) coverage of the 2010 olympics. That's silverlight too. (v3.0)
How about the playboyarchive.com (v2.0)
How about the Hardrock Cafe memorabelia site (v2.0)

Ebay's Simple lister (v4.0 -> out of browser [a la adobe air] support, webcam support, all features of 4.0)

and so on. it's gaining traction. You'll see the popularity of silverlight go through the roof soon. Couple that with the fact the plugin is supported by MS for OSX, and Novell's monoProject for *nix, and you've got something that will catch on.

LoveThePenguin said,

Only MS uses silverlight. No one else does. It's flash or html5. sliverlight is just like the kin, a complete and abject failure.

silverlight is used by quite a bit of websites, next to that, silverlight is better then Flash.... and very few websites use HTML5 besides as a bonus/secondary.

Must say, websites made in Silverlight instead of Flash are way better, less laggy, less resource hungry.

Silverlight is growing, more and more sites will start using it.
I remember some big dutch websites using it for their online streaming aswell.

Its not a flash killer...yet.

Shadowzz said,

silverlight is used by quite a bit of websites, next to that, silverlight is better then Flash.... and very few websites use HTML5 besides as a bonus/secondary.

Must say, websites made in Silverlight instead of Flash are way better, less laggy, less resource hungry.

Silverlight is growing, more and more sites will start using it.
I remember some big dutch websites using it for their online streaming aswell.

Its not a flash killer...yet.

Expect the numbers to go up even more as devs start targeting Windows Phone 7 and Microsoft launches its Windows 8 App Store, which I suspect will be huge for Silverlight out-of-browser applications.

A lot of people don't really understand what silverlight IS anyways. It's almost a WPF implementation in non-desktop based applications. It allows you to build art, animation, and movement the same way across a lot of things. It's not a flash competitor directly in that regard.

dotf said,

Try again. How about MLB.com's subscription service. it uses silverlight. (v3.0)

No, no it does not. Ditched silverlight for flash.

dotf said,

How about the NBC/CTV/(norweigan network) coverage of the 2010 olympics. That's silverlight too. (v3.0)

And that one's... over.

Beastage said,
I find it odd it was killed before they tried reducing the price on the way too high priced data plan.

That was verizon, MS can't change data plan pricing. The phones themselfs where sold on a very low price with a contract, and the hardware is solid. Anyone who's held one and used on can tell you they were bult very well. If anything, Verizon is the one who killed this product way more than MS did.

Beastage said,
I find it odd it was killed before they tried reducing the price on the way too high priced data plan.

^ my thoughts as well... i don't think it was a terrible phone, it just had the wrong data plan attached to it. that's what killed it....

GP007 said,

That was verizon, MS can't change data plan pricing. The phones themselfs where sold on a very low price with a contract, and the hardware is solid. Anyone who's held one and used on can tell you they were bult very well. If anything, Verizon is the one who killed this product way more than MS did.

Then why did MS choose Verizon? They choose Verizon, and they (hopefully) agreed on product pricing etc before signing the deal. Anyway...seriously.. what is up with the US and locking phones to providers? You wouldn't expect TVs from Samsung to be exclusively sold only to Comcast-customers, nor an HP laptop to be locked to Verizon broadband? Where is the free market? The KIN should obviously have been available on a prepaid plan WITH some sort of data plan.

There was no Courier. That was a special effects video, with no actual engineering or software work done. Computer graphics = easy; making a product = hard.

heroinsmoker said,
There was no Courier. That was a special effects video, with no actual engineering or software work done. Computer graphics = easy; making a product = hard.

False, it did exist in some format....just not what you would call a final product

Edited by bdsams, Jul 8 2010, 2:08pm :

heroinsmoker said,
There was no Courier. That was a special effects video, with no actual engineering or software work done. Computer graphics = easy; making a product = hard.

I'm pretty sure they had a prototype of some sort, unless I am imagining a video I recall watching.

Minimoose said,

I'm pretty sure they had a prototype of some sort, unless I am imagining a video I recall watching.

Exactly, you saw a video. We all saw it. The screen graphics were all simulated. That means created in After Effects by an animator.

heroinsmoker said,

Exactly, you saw a video. We all saw it. The screen graphics were all simulated. That means created in After Effects by an animator.

I know what video you are talking about, and it wasn't that one. That was a proof of concept video and not a video of a prototype physically being handled, which is what I am talking about.

Prototype =/= special effects.

heroinsmoker said,

And your source for this is?

Not really worth blabbling about it out on an open forum, ive heard enough chatter that im convinced it did exsist in some sort of physical form or atleast the engineering drawings were done...

heroinsmoker said,
And your source for this is?

How about a channel9 video where the hardware engineer cannibalized existing technology and wrapped it in his own leatherette. he talked about what he might do with it one day.
This was before the name courier was ever attached.

bdsams said,

Not really worth blabbling about it out on an open forum, ive heard enough chatter that im convinced it did exsist in some sort of physical form or atleast the engineering drawings were done...


Ive heard enough chatter that im convivced it did not exist in some sort of physical form or atleast the engineering drawings were done...

Love your source so I hope you like mine for proving it did not exist on a physical scale.

I just don't understand business, Microsoft pull the plug on a project like Courier but yet they release devices like Kin..

They should be ashamed. They release this crap but they choose not to release the Courier!

Unbelievable. Do they even know how much the public wants the Courier?

brolicboy said,
They should be ashamed. They release this crap but they choose not to release the Courier!

Unbelievable. Do they even know how much the public wants the Courier?

Do you realize that no courier ever physically existed... it was a proof of concept project...jesus christ, if the courier could exist practically and affordability I'm going to go out on a limb and say SOMEONE would make it.

AgentGray said,

Do you realize that no courier ever physically existed... it was a proof of concept project...jesus christ, if the courier could exist practically and affordability I'm going to go out on a limb and say SOMEONE would make it.

They did have prototypes. I think the higher ups felt that the software wasn't where they wanted and felt that it would be too expense so it wouldn't sell.

Bengal34 said,

They did have prototypes. I think the higher ups felt that the software wasn't where they wanted and felt that it would be too expense so it wouldn't sell.


The microsoft research center has hundreds of these projects.
I remember their tablecomputer idea's and 3d projects few years back.
Courier was just one of them, barely anything from the research center gets released. It gets used in future idea's/projects.

brolicboy said,
They should be ashamed. They release this crap but they choose not to release the Courier!

Totally agree. There's a *massive* gap in the market for a dual screen book style device. Can't believe the project lead guy for Courier was forced out of the company. It's like vision and foresight are no longer welcome at Microsoft.
Already edging into the gap in the market is Toshiba with their Libretto W100 prototype:

http://www.independent.co.uk/l...ourier-project-2006747.html

brolicboy said,
They should be ashamed. They release this crap but they choose not to release the Courier!

Unbelievable. Do they even know how much the public wants the Courier?

Yes, I wanted the Courier so much! A part of me died inside when I found out that it was cancelled! It seemed like such an amazing and unique device! Hopefully Microsoft will change its mind and start on Courier again.

Oh dear, not good at all; and this folks is why Apples policy of secrecy sort of works

** disclaimer ** I do not own an Apple computer (although I do have an iPhone; my statements are based on observations) ** disclaimer **

Neobond said,
Oh dear, not good at all; and this folks is why Apples policy of secrecy sort of works

** disclaimer ** I do not own an Apple computer (although I do have an iPhone; my statements are based on observations) ** disclaimer **

I think even a microsoft fanboy wouldn't stand up for the Kin devices, it was easy to see that they were going to fail when the first pictures came through.

Minimoose said,

I think even a microsoft fanboy wouldn't stand up for the Kin devices, it was easy to see that they were going to fail when the first pictures came through.

I for one drink a lot of Microsoft Kool-Aid.

I think the device had a really good idea behind it, though it just was not implemented properly.

mackenziepricee said,

I for one drink a lot of Microsoft Kool-Aid.

I think the device had a really good idea behind it, though it just was not implemented properly.

The sidekick market just doesn't exist anymore. Which is what the KIN was targeting. The market existed because they were cheaper than a smartphone and at the time smartphones were more focused on business users than consumers. However, today smartphones are targeting consumers much more (see the iPhone and the array of Android devices). Feature phones have also became more powerful. So the market they were targeting just got squeezed on both sides until there wasn't enough people looking for a product like this to support it.

If Verizon could have worked with MS to bring down the cost of the data plan things would have fared much better. But with the new consumer focus in smartphones if you're going to pay the same data plan you might as well have gotten a smartphone instead.

I understand the premise of the KIN and liked what I saw, but a product like that just doesn't have a market anymore.

mackenziepricee said,

I for one drink a lot of Microsoft Kool-Aid.

I think the device had a really good idea behind it, though it just was not implemented properly.

Yeah, it seemed like a good idea that turned into a failure. IMHO, the phones looked halfway decent to me. But, I can see where things didn't go so well.

Teenagers (such as myself) looking for a smart-phone aren't looking for half-baked-appearing phones like the Kin that allow you to access your social network but that's it. Instead, teenagers want fully-enabled smart-phones, that can access any web page desired, for starters.

Also, I think the Windows Phone 7 looks really nice. I'm not a huge fan of the whole flat-looking thing, but it's not so big of a deal. Hopefully that fares well.

However, any smart-phone nowadays isn't cheap to buy and maintain (phone bills, repairs, etc.) and although the Kin was cheaper than the smart phone, the bill was still the same each month, making it literally 'you get what you pay for'. You pay for a cheap "smart-phone", and you get Kin. Buck up a bit more cash and you'll get the fully-featured smart-phones like the iPhone, BlackBerry, or Android phones.

Edited by JaykeBird, Jul 9 2010, 6:55am : Correcting information

Forget the employees. Upper management should feel like idiots. Kin should have never made it out the door. And they should have never allowed Verizon to slap a smartphone data plan on it. It is more management's fault then any one else.

Well said, doesn't matter how good a product is, if it looks queer it ain't gonna sell.
Look how well the iPhone sells, now that's crap that looks good!

WV2MJR said,
The phone looked goofy. I would never have bought it.

The Kin Two looked perfectly normal. The Kin One, yeah, I would never buy that.

Exosphere said,
Well said, doesn't matter how good a product is, if it looks queer it ain't gonna sell.
Look how well the iPhone sells, now that's crap that looks good!

Oh come on! I think you're exaggerating.. There is nothing to compare the Kin with the iPhone. The iPhone here -even the 2G- is the clear winner! Kin was just a wrong marketing move that led to disaster.. Well said from Microsoft employees; I would be embarrassed as well if I were in their shoes..